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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

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Old 31st December 2017, 07:29 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Voluntary subscription to get it built, and then some kind of naming contract to fund it in the long term.

"Welcome to the Jerusalem US Embassy by Hyatt. The Ambassador will see Hyatt Platinum and Gold rewards members today, other guests may have a longer wait......"

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Old 1st January 2018, 07:08 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
... How is the moving of the embassy to the capital of Israel (as recognized by both major political parties in the US) a highly idiotic and partisan move by the president?

Sometimes the rhetoric on this site is over the top...
Not this time. I think your bipartisanship here is disingenuous too. Moreover, it is evident what use is being made of Trump's embassy initiative by ultra right wing Zionists within the Netenyahu regime. If Trump objects to his Embassy proposal being taken as a green light by settlers to annex bits (or all) of Palestine, I will be most surprised. His fundie apocalyptist supporters want Israel to take over the whole lot because it's in the Bible that God gave it to his chosen people back in the late Bronze Age.
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Old 4th January 2018, 10:54 AM   #123
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Apparently HAMAS's failure to prevent Trump's move has gotten them onto ISIS's purge list:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d5dded67c35c
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Old 5th January 2018, 02:41 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The UN is morally flawed due to dictatorships having voting rights. That flaw means that it is only a talking shop where countries can discuss their self interest
Yeah, well. While dictatorships having voting rights is a major flaw, countries like USA don't use their vote any less self-interestedly. In fact, USA is much worse than any dictator, because USA not only expresses its right to cast a vote according to its opinion, which dictators do as well, but USA also operates both secretively and publicly to put the thumbscrews on other countries to vote in line with US interests, instead of their own interests. US meddling everywhere and anytime is what makes world politics as a whole a massive farce.
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Old 5th January 2018, 02:42 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What do you think is the purpose of the security council?
To rule the world as oligarchs.
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Old 5th January 2018, 10:34 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not this time. I think your bipartisanship here is disingenuous too. Moreover, it is evident what use is being made of Trump's embassy initiative by ultra right wing Zionists within the Netenyahu regime. If Trump objects to his Embassy proposal being taken as a green light by settlers to annex bits (or all) of Palestine, I will be most surprised. His fundie apocalyptist supporters want Israel to take over the whole lot because it's in the Bible that God gave it to his chosen people back in the late Bronze Age.
And it'll increase the probability of Armageddon and the Second Coming.
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Old 5th January 2018, 03:38 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not this time. I think your bipartisanship here is disingenuous too. Moreover, it is evident what use is being made of Trump's embassy initiative by ultra right wing Zionists within the Netenyahu regime. If Trump objects to his Embassy proposal being taken as a green light by settlers to annex bits (or all) of Palestine, I will be most surprised. His fundie apocalyptist supporters want Israel to take over the whole lot because it's in the Bible that God gave it to his chosen people back in the late Bronze Age.
For the record, I have no dog in this hunt and couldn't care less about Zionists. I'm an atheist and hate both parties equally. Furthermore, I believe you make a valid point in that some might make use of this policy to push their own agenda. What I can't understand...and what I'm ASKING...is what was the agenda of the Democratic Platform? It is that simple and there is nothing hidden in that question.

FTR, I took time to respond to your post because I thought it was a little insulting. Look through my posting record. I dare you to find something that is highly partisan. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize in advance.
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Old 6th January 2018, 07:39 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And it'll increase the probability of Armageddon and the Second Coming.
True dat. That's why they've been jonesing for this for decades.
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:48 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Yeah, well. While dictatorships having voting rights is a major flaw, countries like USA don't use their vote any less self-interestedly. In fact, USA is much worse than any dictator, because USA not only expresses its right to cast a vote according to its opinion, which dictators do as well, but USA also operates both secretively and publicly to put the thumbscrews on other countries to vote in line with US interests, instead of their own interests. US meddling everywhere and anytime is what makes world politics as a whole a massive farce.
Much worse than any dictator. Interesting.
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:25 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Much worse than any dictator. Interesting.
Not implausible if your measure of "bad" is not merely the scale of the evil intent, but the product of evil intend and the power to act on it. Examples:
  • If you have two dictatorships which are equally evil, but one is ten times larger than the other (in terms of population, GDP, military spending, or some such) and thus spends ten times as many resources on acting out the evil policies, it's ten times worse in that sense.
  • If a dictatorship is ten times as evil as the USA, but can direct only 1/20th of America's resources to its evil policies, the USA twice as bad.
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:40 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not implausible if your measure of "bad" is not merely the scale of the evil intent, but the product of evil intend and the power to act on it. Examples:
  • If you have two dictatorships which are equally evil, but one is ten times larger than the other (in terms of population, GDP, military spending, or some such) and thus spends ten times as many resources on acting out the evil policies, it's ten times worse in that sense.
  • If a dictatorship is ten times as evil as the USA, but can direct only 1/20th of America's resources to its evil policies, the USA twice as bad.
Yea, I understood his point from the original post. Interesting results are yielded from such politically convenient calculations. For example, the RC church is now a much more evil organization than ISIS and Russia is way more evil than the Zionist Entity. Roger Waters is going to be mighty disappointed to hear that.


Quote:
Yeah, well. While dictatorships having voting rights is a major flaw, countries like USA don't use their vote any less self-interestedly. In fact, USA is much worse than any dictator, because USA not only expresses its right to cast a vote according to its opinion, which dictators do as well, but USA also operates both secretively and publicly to put the thumbscrews on other countries to vote in line with US interests, instead of their own interests. US meddling everywhere and anytime is what makes world politics as a whole a massive farce.
And here JVM implies the UN's collection of strong men don't operate secretly and publicly to subvert the interests of other countries beyond any question of scale.
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Old 17th January 2018, 10:08 AM   #132
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"Sooner than anyone expects"

While traveling abroad to India, Prime Minister of Israel declares that he's been notified the US Embassy move will happen "Sooner than anyone expects" (likely by the end of this year).

The next waiver deadline is June.

This existing Consulate building will probably undergo a status-change and be declared the Embassy at that time.
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Old 17th January 2018, 03:45 PM   #133
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Asked about Netanyahu's comment, President Trump told Reuters in an interview that was not the case.

'By the end of the year? We're talking about different scenarios – I mean obviously that would be on a temporary basis. We're not really looking at that. That's no.'
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Old 17th January 2018, 03:53 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Asked about Netanyahu's comment, President Trump told Reuters in an interview that was not the case.

'By the end of the year? We're talking about different scenarios – I mean obviously that would be on a temporary basis. We're not really looking at that. That's no.'

If you've ever seen a US embassy even in eight star countries, the one in your picture isn't one and can't be made into one.
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Old 18th January 2018, 04:13 PM   #135
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The heroic Andre Vltchek explains why at UN votes the US and Israel can always count on eight star countries like Micronesia to vote with them:

Originally Posted by Journal New Eastern Outlook
[...] When working on my book Oceania, travelling all over the South Pacific, I visited a Jesuit priest and the region’s prominent intellectual, Francis X. Hezel. Our encounter took place in the capital of the Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) – Pohnpei.

Father Hezel has been amassing important materials and documents in his private archive, proving beyond any doubts that the US occupation of Micronesia after WWII led to a dramatic decrease of life expectancy and the standard of living of the islanders. He explained:
“Life here became shorter, and much worse than under the Japanese imperial rule. And this was not some ‘Communist propaganda’. It is written right here, in the report produced during that period by the US Department of State.”
But back to ‘voting’, or what is often called “vote selling”. Father Hezel offered a very explicit story to illustrate the reality:
“One day I had an entire television crew from Israel parked at my office. I had no idea what they were doing here. Why would they travel so far, to such a small and insignificant country? Finally I understood: the Israeli public was fascinated with this place; they wanted to know who are those people who keep voting in the U.N. against most of Security Council resolutions, in this way supporting Israel and the United States against the entire world…”
In my book Oceania, I later wrote:
“Pacific Island votes at the UN are openly for sale, especially when peace in the Middle East is at stake. To illustrate the absurdity of the game: at a time when several countries in the region are becoming uninhabitable as a result of global warming, both Nauru and Kiribati, itself one of the sinking nations and therefore a victim, voted against the Kyoto Protocol.

But it is not only profit that propels tiny nations in Oceania to sell their votes; it is also the fear of retribution.

“In the late 90’s our government voted at the UN against the US on the issue of landmines, recalled the then Foreign Minister of Marshall Islands (RMI), Tony deBrum. “As a result, our party lost the elections.””
[...]
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Old 18th January 2018, 07:27 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
If you've ever seen a US embassy even in eight star countries, the one in your picture isn't one and can't be made into one.
Actually, it will be made into one ('Retrofitted') according to new reports that came out today in The New York Times and Wall Street Journal.
http://www.jpost.com/American-Politi...opening-538174

From what I gather, Donald Trump did not understand the question asked of him, and replied about a NEW embassy being built from scratch somewhere, and he said 'no' (as in, 'no, that can't be accomplished in such a short time')

Here is an artist's conception of the retrofit (additional structure added) at the existing Armonna Consular facility.


Anyway, developing story... stay tuned for more contradictory reports!!!
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:57 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The heroic Andre Vltchek...
Heroic?

Writing from a consistently anti-western point of view makes one heroic?



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Old 20th January 2018, 11:19 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The heroic Andre Vltchek explains why at UN votes the US and Israel can always count on eight star countries like Micronesia to vote with them:
Actually reading the article, including the portion you quoted, the assertion that Micronesia is selling it's vote in not supported by anything. It's just a naked assertion.

Wikipedia, on the other hand, says that Israel and Micronesia have good relations because Israel was one of the first nations to recognize Micronesia, and offers a lot of assistance in the fields of medicine and agriculture as well as scholarships for Micronesians to study in Israeli universities. I suppose someone who was cynical and wanted to present that in a way that looked bad for both Israel and Micronesia could look on that assistance and call it vote purchasing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...esia_relations

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Old 25th January 2018, 09:40 PM   #139
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Been about fifty days since the story broke.
World had not come to an end.
War has not broken out.
Is it really such a big deal?
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Old 26th January 2018, 10:37 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Been about fifty days since the story broke.
World had not come to an end.
War has not broken out.
Is it really such a big deal?
The next step the fundies are jonesing for, is to rebuild the Temple.
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Old 27th January 2018, 10:19 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Been about fifty days since the story broke.
World had not come to an end.
War has not broken out.
Is it really such a big deal?
Rocking the status quo can't be a bad thing when what has been happening is a whole lot of nothing for a generation.
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Old 27th January 2018, 09:47 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Rocking the status quo can't be a bad thing when what has been happening is a whole lot of nothing for a generation.
I suppose that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at this is "change for the sake of change" and yet another is "I'll change it because I think I can."
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Old 29th January 2018, 03:32 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Been about fifty days since the story broke.
World had not come to an end.
War has not broken out.
Is it really such a big deal?
It's a big deal. Not for us, but it's a big deal for Israelis and Palestinians.
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Old 30th January 2018, 05:15 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I suppose that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at this is "change for the sake of change" and yet another is "I'll change it because I think I can."

I see your point, but there's also the definition of insanity to consider. The whole "put pressure on Israel while expecting nothing from the Palestinians" plan hasn't worked in the last 70 years and probably will continue to not work.

The Palestinian peace plan is exactly what it has been since they had a Nazi recruiter as their leader, Palestinians get all the land, any Jews they can get their hands on gets the peace of the grave, and "Palestine will be Juden-free, from the river to the sea" as they so charmingly put it.

I'm not saying expecting change from the Palestinian side will necessarily do any good, but at this point, almost any change from the status quo will be an improvement. Just treating the Palestinians as human beings that are capable of change rather than as animals that can't help being violent and genocidal is a welcome improvement.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:34 PM   #145
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Palestinians are threatening to bring Donald Trump in front of the ICC at The Hague.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/241373

Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority (PA) intends to turn once again to the UN Security Council with a request that it recognize Palestine as a full member state in the United Nations.

The "State of Palestine" is pretty much a fait-accompli at this juncture, and now the question looms large -- what are its borders?
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Old 31st January 2018, 07:16 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Palestinians are threatening to bring Donald Trump in front of the ICC at The Hague.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/241373

Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority (PA) intends to turn once again to the UN Security Council with a request that it recognize Palestine as a full member state in the United Nations.

The "State of Palestine" is pretty much a fait-accompli at this juncture, and now the question looms large -- what are its borders?
Because they're willing to do absolutely anything to achieve independence and self-determination except make peace with Israel.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 08:54 PM   #147
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BREAKING NEWS --
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/polit...may/index.html

May 14th is the date for opening of Jerusalem Embassy.
As expected, the existing Consulate building will be upgraded to full Ambassadorial status, and Mr. Friedman will commence his official business from there.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 11:13 PM   #148
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So if the Embassy moves in May, the Rapture will be in ...?
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Old 24th February 2018, 03:19 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So if the Embassy moves in May, the Rapture will be in ...?
Don't rush things. We have to give the Palestinians time to stage some mass violence over this outrage, first.
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Old 24th February 2018, 04:12 AM   #150
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And as everybody knows, this is what's supposed to happen, right?
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=1.../aer.98.4.1591
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Old 24th February 2018, 12:53 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So if the Embassy moves in May, the Rapture will be in ...?
Gotta rebuild the Temple too.
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Old 24th February 2018, 04:17 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Gotta rebuild the Temple too.
Shouldn't raise any ruckus.
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Old 5th March 2018, 06:55 PM   #153
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From today's Oval Office meeting with the Prime Minister of Israel -- POTUS indicated that he may attend the controversial embassy opening in Jerusalem. Trump also asserted that moving the embassy to Jerusalem “gives us a real opportunity for peace.” “We’re going to have it built very quickly and very inexpensively,” Trump revealed. “They put an order in front (of me) last week for a billion dollars. I said, ‘A billion! What’s that for?’ We’re going to have an embassy, I said, (but) we’re not going to spend a billion dollars."
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Old 6th March 2018, 09:57 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From today's Oval Office meeting with the Prime Minister of Israel -- POTUS indicated that he may attend the controversial embassy opening in Jerusalem. Trump also asserted that moving the embassy to Jerusalem “gives us a real opportunity for peace.” “We’re going to have it built very quickly and very inexpensively,” Trump revealed. “They put an order in front (of me) last week for a billion dollars. I said, ‘A billion! What’s that for?’ We’re going to have an embassy, I said, (but) we’re not going to spend a billion dollars."
Well at least we can put the blame fairly on him for any failures in proper security precautions in the embassy.
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:47 PM   #155
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From my understanding, the existing compound for the Consulate is a highly-secured fortress-like facility.

They'll hang a new sign, and post some Marines at the entrance.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:55 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From my understanding, the existing compound for the Consulate is a highly-secured fortress-like facility.

They'll hang a new sign, and post some Marines at the entrance.
Is it large enough and have enough features to function as an embassy though?
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:22 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Is it large enough and have enough features to function as an embassy though?
Doesn't matter. It's a political show, practical considerations are irrelevant. They've still got the old one in Tel Aviv, which will now be considered a consulate, and most of the staff will just stay there.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:43 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Is it large enough and have enough features to function as an embassy though?
How much space and what features does an embassy need, that a consulate doesn't already have?
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Old 10th March 2018, 12:07 AM   #159
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Well, at a minimum, there needs to be an office for the Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador to the State of Israel.

And the website will need to be updated.
https://il.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulates

And this, from Heather Nauert's official statement:
"By the end of next year (2019), we intend to open a new Embassy Jerusalem annex on the Arnona compound that will provide the Ambassador and his team with expanded interim office space."
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Old 20th March 2018, 03:59 PM   #160
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RUH-ROH.

Zoning regulations in Jerusalem do not currently allow for the construction of a 10-foot wall around the existing compound, which the State Department wants to do prior to May 14th to make it even more secure than it already is.

http://israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/243403
The National Planning and Building Committee is only scheduled to meet next in April, and that body can provide authorization, but that wouldn't leave enough time for the work to be done by May.

In the meantime, special dispensation from the government is being requested so that a wall can start going up immediately.
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