ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags colonialism

Reply
Old 6th January 2018, 12:51 PM   #41
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,372
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.
The fact that so many of the former colonial nations were transformed into Cold War battlegrounds by what you can argue were the new imperial powers in the world was probably the last straw for a lot of those countries.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 01:01 PM   #42
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
I'd just add a broad over-view here. There is still poor governance around in Africa and South America, but it is so much better than it was. More and more countries are peacefully transferring power at elections, and improving the quality of the way they run the show. The Ibrahim index records this good progress, at least in Africa. There are far fewer dictatorships than there were, and far fewer coups. Part of the credit for this must go to international and regional organisations such as the AU, and SADC.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 01:14 PM   #43
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,628
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That is all long before the EEC/EC/EU instituted freedom of movement for its citizens.

But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 02:37 PM   #44
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,064
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!
He also agrees with a point not in dispute!
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 03:39 PM   #45
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,470
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.
There are precedents. The successor to British colonial rule in North America was sponsored by the absolute monarch Louis XVI of France.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 04:19 PM   #46
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,372
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
There are precedents. The successor to British colonial rule in North America was sponsored by the absolute monarch Louis XVI of France.
Of course that was an example where the colonial power didn't rule a native population, they basically drove them from their land and established an offshoot of their own culture on foreign soil.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 04:21 PM   #47
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.
It is a so much better recipe when the West supports a mutiny against a democratically elected leader, murders that leader and installs its own strongman.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 04:22 PM   #48
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 07:11 PM   #49
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,406
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I remember years ago somebody saying that the reason the French disbanded their empire was because there was a law at the time that the inhabitants of the French colonies were French citizens. He seemed to think that when the European Political Union was founded that this would be impracticable and a decision was taken behind closed doors to prevent any invasion of African people into Europe.

People in Algeria now want visas to settle in France. I notice Israel is now trying to force many African illegal immigrants to leave, many from Eritrea. The same kind of thinking could have applied to the British Empire. Internet fraud has flourished in Nigeria and India since independence
I'll leave the issue of Internet fraud in Nigeria and India alone, but I will point out that the French did not "disband" their colonial empire, they fought rather hard to hold onto it, or were you not paying attention to how Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos arose from the ashes of French Indo-China...

Also, Algeria was, prior to independence, part of Metropolitan France. None of the other colonies were. That made the persons born in pre-independence Algeria French citizens, with legislators in the French government, etc. That may give people born in pre-independence Algeria some claim to French citizenship.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2018, 11:01 PM   #50
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,592
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Nigeria became independent in 1960. India in 1947. I have a funny feeling the internet wasn't actually around back then.
They had the teletype internet then......and telephones
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2018, 01:19 AM   #51
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It is a so much better recipe when the West supports a mutiny against a democratically elected leader, murders that leader and installs its own strongman.
Yeah, that turned out well, didn't it. The current strongman is the son of the guy who led the rebellion which happened to succeed as Mobuto's health was failing. I travelled through Zaire when Mobuto was still in power: it was eye-opening. It was a kleptocracy at every single level.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2018, 06:36 AM   #52
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
People in Algeria now want visas to settle in France.
And some people in the U.S. want visas to settle in the U.K. (and vice versa) - what's your point ?

Aside from your oft-stated contention that brown and people aren't fit to govern, is there any point to this thread ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 03:54 AM   #53
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,470
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And some people in the U.S. want visas to settle in the U.K.
A better example is perhaps Ireland which became independent, effectively, a century ago. Since then many Irish people have come to live in the U.K., often to escape the restrictions imposed by the state religion which prevailed intrusively in Ireland until very recent years.

Up to its secession from the Empire, Ireland was part of the UK, as Algeria was of France.

Of all the peoples in the world, I believe the indigenous Irish have the least melanin.

Last edited by Craig B; 9th January 2018 at 03:55 AM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:11 AM   #54
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,943
I remember reading a very old book once which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.

I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:27 AM   #55
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,064
So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:29 AM   #56
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I remember reading a very old book once
The continued inability to provide any kind of reference for anything you've read online or in a book is quite tedious IMO.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.
What are the metrics for a third rate country ?

What evidence do you have that Ireland meets these metrics ?

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.
So what ?

Maybe your preconceptions were wrong. Maybe he was a Colonel Blimp type and you failed to spot is. Maybe you were just plain wrong to expect any specific kind of behaviour because he was a (presumably somewhat distant) descendant of Clive of India.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:32 AM   #57
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,413
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?
Sounds like the pilot of Star Trek: Enterprise.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:32 AM   #58
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India.
But presumably without the wars and famines that occurred in British India and without our alien overlords allowing local rulers freedom to oppress their own people and we wouldn't expect to have our people shipped across the alien empire to work on dangerous building projects or to take part in wars on other planets.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:40 AM   #59
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,031
The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.

If those who desire the power that comes with colonialism, find a place being the alien overlord's local rulers, or the wealthy gets to keep their wealth and the religious their religion, they may tolerate and cooperate with the alien rule. That is what happened in places such as India, where the local rulers were kept on board with a share of the power etc.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:47 AM   #60
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I remember reading a very old book once
Author? Title?

Quote:
which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.
No, it hasn't.

Quote:
I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.
Wow, how enlightening.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:56 AM   #61
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,064
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.

If those who desire the power that comes with colonialism, find a place being the alien overlord's local rulers, or the wealthy gets to keep their wealth and the religious their religion, they may tolerate and cooperate with the alien rule. That is what happened in places such as India, where the local rulers were kept on board with a share of the power etc.
Easy to say that about pro-colonialists you have never met, and about whose actual arguments and positions you are ignorant.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 11:43 AM   #62
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.
For a perhaps more positive look at pro-colonialists... consider the afrancesado ("Spanish and Portuguese partisans of Enlightenment ideas, Liberalism, or the French Revolution, who were supporters of the French occupation of Iberia (Portugal and Spain) and of the First French Empire.")... goals of Enlightenment ideas and Liberalism which, given the Spanish Inquisition was around at the time, seem rather reasonable...
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 11:51 AM   #63
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,064
Our current emperor is an ass. We'd be much better off as subjects of the emperor next door.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 12:49 PM   #64
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,031
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Easy to say that about pro-colonialists you have never met, and about whose actual arguments and positions you are ignorant.
If aliens were to rule over the earth and make it a significantly better place, I would still be uncomfortable as I value my freedom to make mistakes.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 01:09 PM   #65
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.
Because it's not as if millions upon millions died due to British rule or anything. Or as if the trade policies imposed by the British severely harmed India's native development. And native industry certainly wasn't destroyed.

Compared to China, the economy of India is horribly stagnant. Its exports, IIRC, look like those of China 50 years ago or Japan 150 years ago. Rice and silk are still significant exports along with raw natural resources.

Meanwhile China's biggest exports are computers and cars.
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 01:21 PM   #66
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Because it's not as if millions upon millions died due to British rule or anything. Or as if the trade policies imposed by the British severely harmed India's native development. And native industry certainly wasn't destroyed.

Compared to China, the economy of India is horribly stagnant. Its exports, IIRC, look like those of China 50 years ago or Japan 150 years ago. Rice and silk are still significant exports along with raw natural resources.

Meanwhile China's biggest exports are computers and cars.
I think you need to learn a little more about India, TB. Your ignorance is going to be challenged by India itself over the next decade as they continue to make rapid economic progress, based on highly educated people being churned out of their world class universities in huge numbers. China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them. You also need to learn a little about British Colonialism, which included economically significant parts of China, and ended in India some 70 years ago.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 01:31 PM   #67
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,943
This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:

Quote:
Lord Malvern described this British "change of heart" with characteristic pertinence: "In spite of its high moral tone, British policy has the underlying belief that if it gave way quickly to Black nationalism, trade links would be forged with the African countries".......

His deputy Prime Minister, Sir Malcolm Barrow, has said: "We accept the fact that Africans must eventually govern and we regard it as part of White trusteeship to train them for that responsibility - but not to permit African government until they are fully capable. Rhodesia is too close to the Congo for its people not to be aware - more so than the British or American public - of the tragic results of abdicating governments to natives before they are fully capable".
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 02:54 PM   #68
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I think you need to learn a little more about India, TB. Your ignorance is going to be challenged by India itself over the next decade as they continue to make rapid economic progress, based on highly educated people being churned out of their world class universities in huge numbers. China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them. You also need to learn a little about British Colonialism, which included economically significant parts of China, and ended in India some 70 years ago.
Another major factor is that the Indian government's policies post independence promoted economic stagnation and it was only once they started to reform c. 1990 that things picked up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...947–1991)


(TLDR: newly independent country which copies Soviet central planning shouldn't blame Britain for economic stagnation)

Last edited by Giz; 9th January 2018 at 02:56 PM.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 08:11 PM   #69
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,064
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist
Translation: It's racist AF.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2018, 10:36 PM   #70
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,470
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:
Or in another judgement of the book
Mr. Allighan’s appallingly written, inflated, and evasive book gives us little assistance, and indeed only damages the interests it seeks so transparently to further.

Last edited by Craig B; 9th January 2018 at 10:37 PM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 01:22 AM   #71
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:
I guess it's true insofar as the author wrote those words and I guess we should be grateful that you've taken the rare step of at least identifying the book it came from if not where in that book.

I realise that you are a huge Welensky fanboi because he, like you, was of the opinion that black people lacked the capacity to govern but his views were stated 60+ years ago and were viewed by many as being racist and outdated even then.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 01:44 AM   #72
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them.
The 8% of Indians who are university graduate will be the backbones of the economy?
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 01:48 AM   #73
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Another major factor is that the Indian government's policies post independence promoted economic stagnation and it was only once they started to reform c. 1990 that things picked up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...iod_(1947Ė1991)


(TLDR: newly independent country which copies Soviet central planning shouldn't blame Britain for economic stagnation)
Yes, poor use of protectionism resulting in corruption was a big issue. But the need for that protectionism was a result of British policies harming growth of domestic industry.
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 02:00 AM   #74
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The 8% of Indians who are university graduate will be the backbones of the economy?
Argument by sarcasm and rolleyes. Hmmmmmmm......

But yes, they will.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 02:23 AM   #75
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Argument by sarcasm and rolleyes. Hmmmmmmm......

But yes, they will.
Let me know when their contribution eclipses exports of commodities Let alone the, oh, 400% GDP growth they need to compete with China.

Look, I'm not saying that India is beyond recovery, they are clearly showing signs of improvement in recent decades. But to claim British rule in India was beneficial, with all the demonstrable harm it did and the obvious issues with "colonial economics", is completely absurd not to say abhorrent.
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 10th January 2018 at 02:32 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 03:18 AM   #76
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Oh, and never mind the whole "exploitation and reification/rigidification of the caste system" thing.
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 05:21 AM   #77
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Quote:
Look, I'm not saying that India is beyond recovery, they are clearly showing signs of improvement in recent decades.
Look out for when reality hits. You clearly heard it here first, and don't yet know how to adjust your thinking.

Here's something else you might not have thought about: Sub-Saharan Africa is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. But how can that be? So much of it was British Empire.

Quote:
But to claim British rule in India was beneficial, with all the demonstrable harm it did and the obvious issues with "colonial economics", is completely absurd not to say abhorrent.
The last resort of those with nothing to say: the glorious strawman. This pile is pretty huge. Please point out anyone in the thread who has said that British rule in India was beneficial. Please apologise when you can't.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Let me know when their contribution eclipses exports of commodities Let alone the, oh, 400% GDP growth they need to compete with China.
You're going to carry on with the rolleyes thing? OK, you can talk to yourself.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 05:53 AM   #78
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Look out for when reality hits. You clearly heard it here first, and don't yet know how to adjust your thinking.

You seem really upset that I stepped on your fantasies about the British Empire not being that bad after all. What in the world makes you think I didn't know that India, in recent decades, has shown signs of its economy improving? That changes nothing about the destruction the British wrought. Sorry, the colonialism perpetrated by the British was among the worst atrocities in history.


Quote:
Here's something else you might not have thought about: Sub-Saharan Africa is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. But how can that be? So much of it was British Empire.
And it would have been far, far better off, had the trans-atlantic slave trade not wrought immense havoc to its demographics in the Early Modern era, and that's not even getting into the horrors of 19th century African colonies. Wreaking immense havoc =/= Completely eliminating any hope of recovery for all foreseeable time.


Quote:
The last resort of those with nothing to say: the glorious strawman. This pile is pretty huge. Please point out anyone in the thread who has said that British rule in India was beneficial. Please apologise when you can't.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.


Quote:
You're going to carry on with the rolleyes thing? OK, you can talk to yourself.
How's your assegai collection coming along?
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 10th January 2018 at 05:56 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 05:58 AM   #79
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,336
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Sorry, the colonialism perpetrated by the British was among the worst atrocities in history.
Would you care to provide your ranking of historical atrocities?
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 06:02 AM   #80
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,768
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You seem really upset that I stepped on your fantasies about the British Empire not being that bad after all........
This is pathetic, TB. If you can't debate people's actual positions and arguments then this may not be the forum for you.

I haven't said one single thing is support of the British Empire. I loath it. I wish it had never happened. I am a huge lover of India and Africa, and to see ignorant denigration of either is what gets my goat......and your sneering, patronising rolleyes-infested gibberish denigrating India is what has upset me, not anything you have said about the loathsome British Empire. See if you can make a post in this thread without denigrating a third world country or piling up a huge mountain of straw about other posters, and I am sure that there will be others here who may wish to engage you. As for me.....that's it.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 10th January 2018 at 06:04 AM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.