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Old 10th January 2018, 06:10 AM   #81
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is pathetic, TB. If you can't debate people's actual positions and arguments then this may not be the forum for you.

I haven't said one single thing is support of the British Empire. I loath it. I wish it had never happened. I am a huge lover of India and Africa, and to see ignorant denigration of either is what gets my goat......and your sneering, patronising rolleyes-infested gibberish denigrating India is what has upset me, not anything you have said about the loathsome British Empire. See if you can make a post in this thread without denigrating a third world country or piling up a huge mountain of straw about other posters, and I am sure that there will be others here who may wish to engage you. As for me.....that's it.
Okay, I'm really confused as to what exactly you objected to in the first place then. Do you take any issue at all with the statements that:

- The British Empire devastated the Indian economy and domestic industry for its own purposes.

- Export-oriented policies instituted by the British Empire were immensely harmful to the growth or re-establishment of domestic industry.

- The British Empire created, rigidified and re-instituted ethno-religious and class divisions where they were either previously absent or far less prominent before.

- The British Empire was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions in famines in India.

... and that the effects of these things are still felt today in the many, many socio-economic problems that plague India?

I don't even know where you get "Denigrating India" from. If anything, minimizing the massive socio-economic problems it faces and that are largely caused by its colonial history is denigrating. Pretending that it's better off than it is is to minimize the horrors of its past.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
..... Sorry, the colonialism perpetrated by the British was among the worst atrocities in history.
What..worse than Islamic colonialism ? Or Roman ? Or Phoenician ?

Quote:
And it would have been far, far better off, had the trans-atlantic slave trade not wrought immense havoc to its demographics in the Early Modern era.....
True, although it was overshadowed by the Islamic trade in African slaves, something that is SO rarely mentioned.

My point is this: are you objecting to colonialism, or only the colonialism undertaken by "white westerners" ?
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
What..worse than Islamic colonialism ? Or Roman ? Or Phoenician ?
I'm not sure what you mean with "Islamic colonialism", nor Phoenician. The "colonies" of the ancient world were quite different from those in the early modern era. The ancient word referred to a type of Roman military outpost.

There is no doubt that the Romans perpetrated atrocities due to their immensely chauvinistic world view. But they also lived in a world that was very, very different, which we will never know as much about as we would like. The degree to which things we would understand as genocide today occurred in the ancient world is still a subject of debate.

I really don't see it as relevant to the subject at hand, honestly.

Quote:
True, although it was overshadowed by the Islamic trade in African slaves, something that is SO rarely mentioned.
Not true. The total amount of slaves may have been greater, but the Islamic slave trade happened for a period that was several times longer.

It was also qualitatively different than the trans-Antlantic slave trade (albeit parts of it, such as the creation of eunuchs for the Ottomans, was no doubt equally horrific). "Islamic slave trade" is really too broad a topic to generalize about.

Quote:
My point is this: are you objecting to colonialism, or only the colonialism undertaken by "white westerners" ?
"Colonialism" refers to a set of practices beginning in the early modern era that was in general peculiar to the west. I'm sure relevant comparisons can be made to other cultures, but that seems beyond the scope of this discussion.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:27 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Okay, I'm really confused as to what exactly you objected to in the first place then.
You shouldn't be. It's simple. I object to your ignorant sneering at the Indian economy.

Quote:
Do you take any issue at all with the statements that:

- The British Empire devastated the Indian economy and domestic industry for its own purposes.
No.

Quote:
- Export-oriented policies instituted by the British Empire were immensely harmful to the growth or re-establishment of domestic industry.
No, not at the time, and for some decades after British withdrawal.

Quote:
- The British Empire created, rigidified and re-instituted ethno-religious and class divisions where they were either previously absent or far less prominent before.
No, although it is much more complex than this.

Quote:
- The British Empire was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions in famines in India.
No, during Empire, but not after the end of Empire. During the Raj they were responsible for the deaths of millions through various policies, especially partition, but famine is a complex subject. The British had no role in famines in India in the late 20th century.

Quote:
... and that the effects of these things are still felt today in the many, many socio-economic problems that plague India?
I don't accept this at all.

Quote:
I don't even know where you get "Denigrating India" from.
You do now. Do some learning about India before you spout tripe.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:28 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
True, although it was overshadowed by the Islamic trade in African slaves, something that is SO rarely mentioned.

My point is this: are you objecting to colonialism, or only the colonialism undertaken by "white westerners" ?
I think the subject of this particular strand of conversation is whether the British rule in India really was as "good" as theprestige seems to think it was:

Originally Posted by theprestige
I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India.
IMO British rule wasn't a complete disaster but OTOH millions died in famines, the caste system was largely retained intact, India was "plundered" economically and Indians were forced to work throughout the British Empire and Indian troops served Empire forces.

I'm not sure that I'd be so sanguine if our alien overlords did a similarly "good" job.

That's not to say there aren't many, many, far worse examples of colonialism.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:38 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You shouldn't be. It's simple. I object to your ignorant sneering at the Indian economy.



No.



No, not at the time, and for some decades after British withdrawal.



No, although it is much more complex than this.



Not after the end of Empire. During the Raj they were responsible for the deaths of millions through various policies, especially partition, but famine is a complex subject. The British had no role in famines in India in the late 20th century.
OK, good. I don't think I've mentioned any famines of the late 20th century?

Quote:
You do now. Do some learning about India before you spout tripe.
OK, so when I said that the economy of India is horribly stagnant compared to China, that was a bit of a broad brush. I should have said that looking at the development seen in the countries since Indian independence, India has lagged behind. As it stands, it simply doesn't have the industrial base to play in the same league, and its population suffers for it. The higher education of a small segment of society - the slightly wealthies urban dwellers - is only going to help the what, 4/5ths of the population that is still rural so much.

If you absolutely have to know, one of my ex-girlfriends grew up in India. The massive issues the rural population faced was something that concerned her a great deal.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:41 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
tthe caste system was largely retained intact,
Worse - the British made use of the Brahmins a great deal in understanding India. This led to them rigidifying and in many cases re-instating the caste system and playing up its racial aspects.

If I recall correctly, in most parts of India, the occupational divisions (I forget the word) were much more important than the caste systems, before the British.
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Old 10th January 2018, 07:04 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I'm not sure what you mean with "Islamic colonialism", nor Phoenician. The "colonies" of the ancient world were quite different from those in the early modern era. The ancient word referred to a type of Roman military outpost.

There is no doubt that the Romans perpetrated atrocities due to their immensely chauvinistic world view. But they also lived in a world that was very, very different, which we will never know as much about as we would like. The degree to which things we would understand as genocide today occurred in the ancient world is still a subject of debate.

I really don't see it as relevant to the subject at hand, honestly.
Well, yes... if you are modifying the definition of 'colonisation' in order to fit a particular narrative or agenda, then of course, the comparison won't be relevant.

Quote:
Not true. The total amount of slaves may have been greater, but the Islamic slave trade happened for a period that was several times longer.

It was also qualitatively different than the trans-Antlantic slave trade (albeit parts of it, such as the creation of eunuchs for the Ottomans, was no doubt equally horrific). "Islamic slave trade" is really too broad a topic to generalize about.
So are you suggesting that the greater length of the Islamic slave trade caused it to have LESS impact on their conquered African countries ? I'm struggling with that.

Quote:
"Colonialism" refers to a set of practices beginning in the early modern era that was in general peculiar to the west. I'm sure relevant comparisons can be made to other cultures, but that seems beyond the scope of this discussion.
Once more, that is a VERY specific definition. Dare I even say an artificially contrived one ? Could you give me any examples of dictionary definitions of "colonisation" that accord with your own definition above ?
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Old 10th January 2018, 07:13 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Well, yes... if you are modifying the definition of 'colonisation' in order to fit a particular narrative or agenda, then of course, the comparison won't be relevant.

Once more, that is a VERY specific definition. Dare I even say an artificially contrived one ? Could you give me any examples of dictionary definitions of "colonisation" that accord with your own definition above ?
Here's a nice summary from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Quote:
Colonialism is not a modern phenomenon. World history is full of examples of one society gradually expanding by incorporating adjacent territory and settling its people on newly conquered territory. The ancient Greeks set up colonies as did the Romans, the Moors, and the Ottomans, to name just a few of the most famous examples. Colonialism, then, is not restricted to a specific time or place. Nevertheless, in the sixteenth century, colonialism changed decisively because of technological developments in navigation that began to connect more remote parts of the world. Fast sailing ships made it possible to reach distant ports and to sustain close ties between the center and colonies. Thus, the modern European colonial project emerged when it became possible to move large numbers of people across the ocean and to maintain political sovereignty in spite of geographical dispersion. This entry uses the term colonialism to describe the process of European settlement and political control over the rest of the world, including the Americas, Australia, and parts of Africa and Asia.
Quote:

So are you suggesting that the greater length of the Islamic slave trade caused it to have LESS impact on their conquered African countries ? I'm struggling with that.
Yes, because the percentage of the population was smaller and it occurred at a slower rate. It also mainly occurred in a completely different part of Africa (around the Horn, mostly, I believe), which makes it kind of irrelevant to the discussion of the impact of the TAST on West Africa.
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Old 10th January 2018, 07:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Here's something else you might not have thought about: Sub-Saharan Africa is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. But how can that be? So much of it was British Empire.
And if you're right, it's growing after being relieved of having to bear the weight of that empire. If a spring is held down, it jumps back up when released, yes indeed.

Moreover, China, also recently released from imperial pressure, is investing heavily in African infrastructure. Could that have happened in the days of the Shanghai International SettlementWP?
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:39 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think the subject of this particular strand of conversation is whether the British rule in India really was as "good" as theprestige seems to think it was:
To be clear: I'm agnostic about the quality of the British rule in India. I don't think it's necessary to know that, in order to address the OP.

All we need to address the OP is to stipulate *some* level of quality. Ideally, we'd stipulate based on the assumptions and arguments provided by an actual "pro-colonialist". But since the OP doesn't provide one, and doesn't even bother to articulate or cite their beliefs, we're free to stipulate whatever we want.
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:53 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Worse - the British made use of the Brahmins a great deal in understanding India. This led to them rigidifying and in many cases re-instating the caste system and playing up its racial aspects.

If I recall correctly, in most parts of India, the occupational divisions (I forget the word) were much more important than the caste systems, before the British.
Pfft. A most superficial analysis. A more comprehensive analysis would track the British recognition and exploitation of the indian caste system to the existence of the British class system. And the British class system is based on the Normans. And the Normans conquered Britain due to the diversion created by scandinavian invaders at Stamford bridge in 1066.

Ergo, any real analysis has to conclude that Scandinavia is responsible for india's moribund economy*.


* and all other ills relating to the British Empire.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:05 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pfft. A most superficial analysis. A more comprehensive analysis would track the British recognition and exploitation of the indian caste system to the existence of the British class system. And the British class system is based on the Normans. And the Normans conquered Britain due to the diversion created by scandinavian invaders at Stamford bridge in 1066.

Ergo, any real analysis has to conclude that Scandinavia is responsible for india's moribund economy*.


* and all other ills relating to the British Empire.
Are you questioning the fact that the British had a key role in rigidifying, racializing and in many places reintroducing the caste system as we know it? It's really nothing to be glib about.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Are you questioning the fact that the British had a key role in rigidifying, racializing and in many places reintroducing the caste system as we know it? It's really nothing to be glib about.
Are you denying the scandinavian role? Obviously the British could not be expected to show agency or responsibility for their societal structure after scandinavian meddling. It is absolutely nothing to be glib about.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:21 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Are you denying the scandinavian role? Obviously the British could not be expected to show agency or responsibility for their societal structure after scandinavian meddling. It is absolutely nothing to be glib about.
What's the point of this line of nonsense extrapolation? What is your issue with the fact that the British profoundly altered that aspect of Indian society? Can you explain that without childish imitation? Obviously there was Indian agency involved - those at the top benefitted from this new social order.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:27 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Are you questioning the fact that the British had a key role in rigidifying, racializing and in many places reintroducing the caste system as we know it? It's really nothing to be glib about.
It's astonishing that you don't recognise such obvious humour and teasing. But no, carry on with the po-faced responses.

Nicely done, Giz.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:01 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's astonishing that you don't recognise such obvious humour and teasing. But no, carry on with the po-faced responses.

Nicely done, Giz.
Not so, I'm genuinely baffled as to what point he is trying to make.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:21 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pfft. A most superficial analysis. A more comprehensive analysis would track the British recognition and exploitation of the indian caste system to the existence of the British class system. And the British class system is based on the Normans. And the Normans conquered Britain due to the diversion created by scandinavian invaders at Stamford bridge in 1066.

Ergo, any real analysis has to conclude that Scandinavia is responsible for india's moribund economy*.


* and all other ills relating to the British Empire.
Absolutely and we all know who were behind those insidious Scandinavians!

Lapps or Sami
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:48 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
.....I'm genuinely baffled as to what point he is trying to make.
Patently. He wasn't wasn't trying to make a point, he was trying (and succeeding) in being humourous.
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Absolutely and we all know who were behind those insidious Scandinavians!

Lapps or Sami
Reindeer migration is driven by mosquitoes. The migration of the reindeer is the reason for the life-style of the Sami. Are we really saying that mosquitoes north of the arctic circle are the reason for the caste system in India? Who knew.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:03 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Reindeer migration is driven by mosquitoes. The migration of the reindeer is the reason for the life-style of the Sami. Are we really saying that mosquitoes north of the arctic circle are the reason for the caste system in India? Who knew.
No, the Indian caste system existed before the British arrived on the subcontinent. The mosquitos can't be blamed for that. At worst, the mosquitos can only be blamed for the persistence of the Indian caste system following British colonial rule.

Anyway, let me see if I understand: The arctic mosquito's failure to cure all of India's preexisting conditions during the British colonial period ranks as one of the worst atrocities in history.

Presumably if the Indians had been left to their own devices, they would have gotten rid of their caste system a long time ago. But now that the British have touched their shores, they have become forever after powerless to chart their own destiny.

Kinda makes you wonder how the Brits managed all their own destiny-charting over the centuries.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:06 PM   #102
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Also, am I the only one amused by the notion that the British were wrong to accommodate and work with the cultural institutions of India? The caste system was already in place when the British arrived. It seems like going along with it was much more culturally sensitive--and practical--than trying to abolish it.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:36 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, am I the only one amused by the notion that the British were wrong to accommodate and work with the cultural institutions of India? The caste system was already in place when the British arrived. It seems like going along with it was much more culturally sensitive--and practical--than trying to abolish it.
Yes, that's the way the British thought too, more or less. The problem here is that when they wanted to learn about how Indian society, they went to talk to the literate caste, the Brahmins. The Brahmins, of course, present a worldview where they themselves are in charge, that does not necessarily reflect reality and is not necessarily embraced by society at large, at least not to the degree that they would like. Whereas the British imposed a bueraucracy where these things suddenly became far more "real". And it didn't stop with castes, either, the British had all kinds of ways of categorizing people in India that ended up creating entirely new social tensions (Sikhs became a "Martial people", for example).®The race-based worldview of the British at the time played a huge role in this, obviously.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:46 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, that's the way the British thought too, more or less. The problem here is that when they wanted to learn about how Indian society, they went to talk to the literate caste, the Brahmins. The Brahmins, of course, present a worldview where they themselves are in charge, that does not necessarily reflect reality and is not necessarily embraced by society at large, at least not to the degree that they would like. Whereas the British imposed a bueraucracy where these things suddenly became far more "real". And it didn't stop with castes, either, the British had all kinds of ways of categorizing people in India that ended up creating entirely new social tensions (Sikhs became a "Martial people", for example).®The race-based worldview of the British at the time played a huge role in this, obviously.
The Sikhs being viewed as martial might have something to do with the Anglo Sikh wars being the toughest fighting Britain encountered whilst conquering India.

What about the abolition of suttee? An example of exporting cultural mores? (Boo!)
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The race-based worldview of the British at the time played a huge role in this, obviously.
I bet the "race-based worldview of the British at the time" was actually the same baseline ethno-chauvinism practiced by every nation and people group at the time, including the Indians.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:51 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I bet the "race-based worldview of the British at the time" was actually the same baseline ethno-chauvinism practiced by every nation and people group at the time, including the Indians.
You could "bet" that, and you would lose.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:01 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You could "bet" that, and you would lose.
You're the one saying that the British were especially racist, compared to other people groups at the time. As long as you don't support that claim, I win the bet by default.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're the one saying that the British were especially racist, compared to other people groups at the time. As long as you don't support that claim, I win the bet by default.
I am saying that the concept of races was a Western peculiarity. This is frankly simply not controversial.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:29 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I am saying that the concept of races was a Western peculiarity. This is frankly simply not controversial.
Really? There may have been more examples (due to westerners getting around more) but all nations have tended towards chauvinistic ethnic self adulation. To quote about china:

"Racial discrimination by the ruling Han Chinese in Imperial China have been documented by many historical texts, such as the*Hanshu*by*Yan Shigu, where the*Wusun people were referred as...*macaque monkeys."
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Old 10th January 2018, 03:28 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Really? There may have been more examples (due to westerners getting around more) but all nations have tended towards chauvinistic ethnic self adulation.
Which, of course, is different from the racial theories that developed in the Early Modern Era.

You can occasionally find analogous ideas, but you'll find that the idea of strict racial-biological categories is quite peculiar to the West. Usually the trigger is said to have been suspicions of the sincerity of those converting from Judaism or Islam. It seems to have solidified with the elevation of "scientific" thinking in the 17th century or so.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:14 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Reindeer migration is driven by mosquitoes. The migration of the reindeer is the reason for the life-style of the Sami. Are we really saying that mosquitoes north of the arctic circle are the reason for the caste system in India? Who knew.
Yes and who do you think carried all those mosquito larvae up there and placed them in those seasonal bogs? Hmmm gnomes? This conspiracy goes into deep, deep time. I think, ultimately bottom line we can blame Homo Erectus for his leaving Africa for this.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All we need to address the OP is to stipulate *some* level of quality. Ideally, we'd stipulate based on the assumptions and arguments provided by an actual "pro-colonialist". But since the OP doesn't provide one, and doesn't even bother to articulate or cite their beliefs, we're free to stipulate whatever we want.
I already gave you two examples of apologists for imperialists. Here they are again if you need more spoonfeeding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSnJSUU_7q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma7LWWvwMQM
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:24 PM   #113
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yt;dw
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:26 PM   #114
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Quote:
One can find any manner of crazyness on youtube. Most of it is meaningless.

Do you have anything by anyone in writing?
Is not just something on youtube. Its from a main talk show on the BBC.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:28 PM   #115
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Quote:
yt;dw
Where did those goalposts go?
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
I already gave you two examples of apologists for imperialists. Here they are again if you need more spoonfeeding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSnJSUU_7q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma7LWWvwMQM
You have been repeatedly asked if you have anything other than YT videos. Do you?
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Old 10th January 2018, 08:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee
I remember reading a very old book once
Author? Title?
It were green.
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Old 10th January 2018, 08:47 PM   #118
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Quote:
You have been repeatedly asked if you have anything other than YT videos. Do you?
I'm not going to follow your goal-post moving.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:05 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No, the Indian caste system existed before the British arrived on the subcontinent.
It did, but it was localised and even when it was in place the effects varied significantly from region to region, princely state to princely state. The British, as is our way, standardised and codified the caste system and implemented it throughout India.

Were the British responsible for creating the caste system ? No

Were the British responsible for implementing the caste system throughout British India ? There's an argument that can be made.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:43 AM   #120
Henri McPhee
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I read somewhere a few years ago that there are now more billionaires in India than in Russia. I don't know if it's due to internet fraud.

There is a bit about India in that book Russian Outlook published in 1947 by Lieutenant- General Sir Giffard Martel:

Quote:
We now come to the case which we have had for a long time in India, namely an Asiatic people with a Western leader. The latter nearly always makes the mistake of treating the people as though they were Westerners. He takes little trouble over his supporters and much trouble over pleasing his opponents.

That has been our fundamental mistake in India. Those of us who have been in India have all seen this happen. Some loyal men were strong supporters of the British Raj. They were hardly given any reward, but noisy supporters of Congress often had a great deal done for them. The people saw that it did not pay to support the Raj. They too joined the Congress Party.That has been the main cause of all our troubles in India.

In Russia the best of the loyal people are given some reward. What happens to the disloyal people is so dreadful that there are none, or at least they do not appear in the open.

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