ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags airplane incidents , airplane issues , animal incidents

Reply
Old 19th January 2018, 03:12 PM   #1
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 11,908
Emotional Support Dog bites passenger on Delta Flight

Quote:
A passenger on a Delta Air lines flight was bitten by another passenger’s emotional support dog.

The incident happened Sunday during boarding of Flight 1430 at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, on a Boeing 737-900ER bound for San Diego.

“During the boarding process, a passenger’s emotional support animal bit another passenger,” said Delta spokesman Anthony Black. The dog was sitting on its owner’s lap in the middle seat, while the victim was seated in the window seat next to him.

The incident was first reported by Fox 5, which quoted a passenger who said: “The gentleman’s face was completely bloody…. his shirt was covered in blood.”
http://airport.blog.ajc.com/2017/06/...-delta-flight/
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 03:18 PM   #2
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Originally Posted by article
The dog is listed in the police report as a “chocolate lab pointer mix.”
One of those pit bulls, then.

Originally Posted by 2nd_article
“The dog was pulled away but broke free from Mr. Mundy’s grasp and attacked Mr. Jackson a second time … The attacks reportedly lasted 30 seconds and resulted in profuse bleeding from severe lacerations to Mr. Jackson’s face, including a puncture through the lip and gum.”
Sounds like he'll need an emotional support dog himself after that.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 03:43 PM   #3
bytewizard
Graduate Poster
 
bytewizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In the woods
Posts: 1,869
Originally Posted by baron View Post
One of those pit bulls, then.
I would have guessed Airedale or Skye Terrier.
bytewizard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 03:56 PM   #4
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,100
Quote:
Updated June 8, 2017
Bit of an old story. I wonder if a thread about the incident was started here when it happened.

I do remember reading a thread on some other platform and was surprised at the number of people, before the witness reports and a gruesome photo of the victim's face emerged, who were 100% certain that dogs "just don't act that way unless provoked" and asserted that the victim must have done something to upset the dog. In reality the victim was already seated before the dog and his owner arrived, and leaning all the way against the bulkhead, and expressed alarm more than once at the fact the dog was staring at him and growing threateningly although the owner assured him nothing bad would happen. It was like a comedy sketch.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:01 PM   #5
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,332
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I do remember reading a thread on some other platform and was surprised at the number of people, before the witness reports and a gruesome photo of the victim's face emerged, who were 100% certain that dogs "just don't act that way unless provoked" and asserted that the victim must have done something to upset the dog.
Well, I'm sure the dog thought it was justified.

I'd imagine the dog was likely to be a bit stressed being in a confined space like that with all of the activity and hubub going on when people board a flight.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:06 PM   #6
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Sounds like he'll need an emotional support dog himself after that.
I primarily hope for the victim that the owner of the "emotional support dog" has a big enough insurance to pay out compensation.

From the article:
Quote:
The police report listed the dog’s owner, Ronald Kevin Mundy Jr. of Mills River, N.C., as a military service member with the U.S. Marine Corps who “advised that the dog was issued to him for support.” The dog is listed in the police report as a “chocolate lab pointer mix.”
I wonder how Mundy, as a marine, functions in combat when he apparently can't stomach a flight without his "emotional support dog".

Quote:
The dog was secured inside a dog crate and released to Mundy, who was not charged, according to the police report. He was allowed to fly with his dog in the kennel, according to Delta.
Say what? Any other dog that bites a human gets impounded and put down right away. Why does this dog get away with this?

Quote:
The animal “must be trained to behave properly in public settings as service animals do,” according to Delta’s website. “A kennel is not required for emotional support animals if they are fully trained and meet same requirements as a service animal.”
Obviously, this dog was not properly trained, otherwise he'd not have bitten the victim.

I had an "emotional support animal" when I was five. It's called a teddy bear.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

Last edited by ddt; 19th January 2018 at 04:25 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:08 PM   #7
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 82,514
First of all the dog needs to be destroyed.

Secondly what is an emotional support dog?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:13 PM   #8
gerdbonk
Penultimate Amazing
 
gerdbonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula
Posts: 14,233
What of the dog's owner was emotionally distressed that he didn't get the window seat? What's a support dog supposed to do, just sit there?
__________________
I'll bet you didn't notice that I was Totally ExoneratedTM when I wrote this.

Disavow any knowledge of my twitter here.
gerdbonk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:20 PM   #9
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,174
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I primarily hope for the victim that the owner of the "emotional support dog" has a big enough insurance to pay out compensation.

From the article:

I wonder how Mundy, as a marine, functions in combat when he apparently can't stomach a flight without his "emotional support dog".


Say what? Any other dog that bites a human gets impounded and killed right away. Why does this dog get away with this?


Obviously, this dog was not properly trained, otherwise he'd not have bitten the victim.

I had an "emotional support animal" when I was five. It's called a teddy bear.
The company that provided this dog needs to be put of of business.

Although that does beg the question of who was responsible for training the dog? There are problems with fly-by-night "service dog" companies these days. Actually, a lot of "service dogs" are not actually trained by legitimate companies (in fact, a lot of so-called "service dogs" are not trained at all - it's just individuals who throw a blazer on the dog and claim it is service; I am not suggesting this case is like that, but I am saying that whoever trained this dog failed, and cannot be allowed to do any more. Actually any other dogs provided by this outfit need to be recalled)

Probably trained service dogs are amazing. I've seen them handle outrageous situations very appropriately (I saw a dog get his tail stepped on - he didn't yelp, he just crawled up onto the owner's lab looking very sad; such a good dog!). Improperly trained dogs, otoh, are a danger and they cannot be allowed.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:24 PM   #10
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I primarily hope for the victim that the owner of the "emotional support dog" has a big enough insurance to pay out compensation.
I wouldn't be surprised if it falls to the federal government to pay any damages. Clearly the dog was not suited for the task.

Quote:
I wonder how Mundy, as a marine, functions in combat when he apparently can't stomach a flight without his "emotional support dog".
Not every MOS is a combat MOS. I repaired radars. Specifically, the HAWK. It's out of service now, but if I had a dog it wouldn't have hindered my tasks even during deployment. Feeding the pooch would have been tough, and MREs were cruel enough on people, but that would have been more of a logistical issue than a combat readiness issue.

Quote:
Say what? Any other dog that bites a human gets impounded and killed right away. Why does this dog get away with this?
It's actually a long and involved process to destroy a dog nowdays. The dog does get a trial. And, again, the fact the dog was trained by the Feds and issued by the Marines, it might be harder for a city or state to destroy federal property without a judgement from a court.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:25 PM   #11
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,385
Quote:
The dog was sitting on its owner’s lap in the middle seat...

chocolate lab pointer mix
That seems like a large dog to have sitting in your lap in an airplane seat.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:35 PM   #12
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,100
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
First of all the dog needs to be destroyed.

Secondly what is an emotional support dog?
It is a new American trend. Some people have taken to insisting on bringing a pet - often a dog but not necessarily - with them into public places where pets are generally not permitted, such as airplanes and grocery stores and so forth, under the assertion that they are "service animals", providing emotional support (as opposed to, say, a blind-assistance dog). Unlike professionally-trained blind-assistance dogs, emotional-support animals are in every sense just pets chosen at the whim of the owner, so they are not trained to deal with crowds, noise, or enclosed spaces; there are no standards for certifying such animals; and while many claim to have one, a physician's note required to employ an emotional support animal. Special jackets and Emotional Support Animal certificates and badges designed to imply a measure of (phony) "officiality" can be purchased on Amazon.

The situation is allowed to exist because the law in the United States prohibits stores and establishments from scrutinizing or requiring credentials of patrons who present as disabled or in need of service animals.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:41 PM   #13
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The company that provided this dog needs to be put of of business.

Although that does beg the question of who was responsible for training the dog? There are problems with fly-by-night "service dog" companies these days. Actually, a lot of "service dogs" are not actually trained by legitimate companies (in fact, a lot of so-called "service dogs" are not trained at all - it's just individuals who throw a blazer on the dog and claim it is service; I am not suggesting this case is like that, but I am saying that whoever trained this dog failed, and cannot be allowed to do any more. Actually any other dogs provided by this outfit need to be recalled)

Probably trained service dogs are amazing. I've seen them handle outrageous situations very appropriately (I saw a dog get his tail stepped on - he didn't yelp, he just crawled up onto the owner's lab looking very sad; such a good dog!). Improperly trained dogs, otoh, are a danger and they cannot be allowed.
I fully agree about actual service dogs. As an STTR, I've been around deaf and deaf-blind people with "hearing dogs" (that signal their owner, e.g., when the doorbell rings) and guide dogs. They're all well-behaved and properly trained. And in my country, at least, there's only one or a few recognized institutions that may train and/or certify them.

"Emotional support animals" are not service animals, at least not under the ADA. And outside the USA, no-one's ever heard of them. They don't do actual work, they only make you feel better. Get a doctor to write you a note, slap on a vest and presto, your not-even-housebroken dog is an "emotional support animal". They're nothing else than Linus' blanket or the teddy bear that you carried with you as a child, except that that teddy bear didn't maul anyone around. Many of them are a scam, so that people can carry them for free on a plane, because there's another federal law that says airlines have to accommodate them too.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
It's actually a long and involved process to destroy a dog nowdays. The dog does get a trial.
Say what?
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
And, again, the fact the dog was trained by the Feds and issued by the Marines, it might be harder for a city or state to destroy federal property without a judgement from a court.
There's no evidence in the story that the dog was trained by the feds, much less that it was owned by the feds. The article said the marine owned the dog himself.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:50 PM   #14
welshdean
6 NATIONS 2016
-MORAL VICTORS-
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,057
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Bit of an old story. I wonder if a thread about the incident was started here when it happened.

I do remember reading a thread on some other platform and was surprised at the number of people, before the witness reports and a gruesome photo of the victim's face emerged, who were 100% certain that dogs "just don't act that way unless provoked" and asserted that the victim must have done something to upset the dog. In reality the victim was already seated before the dog and his owner arrived, and leaning all the way against the bulkhead, and expressed alarm more than once at the fact the dog was staring at him and growing threateningly although the owner assured him nothing bad would happen. It was like a comedy sketch.
Does your dog bite?
No...
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 04:52 PM   #15
gerdbonk
Penultimate Amazing
 
gerdbonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula
Posts: 14,233
From one of the many organizations providing "registration" of ESAs (Emotional Support Animal):

Quote:
All domesticated animals may qualify as an ESA (cats, dog, mice, rabbits, birds, snakes, hedgehogs, rats, mini pigs, ferrets, etc.) and they can be any age (young puppies and kittens, too!). These animals do not need any specific task-training because their very presence mitigates the symptoms associated with a person's psychological/emotional disability, unlike a working service dog. The only requirement is that the animal is manageable in public and does not create a nuisance in or around the home setting.
Quote:
The Air Carrier Access Act 49 U.S.C. 41705, Dept. of Transportation 14 C.F.R. Part 382, Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988 are the laws that protect an emotionally disabled person and his/her ESA.

The legal protections an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) has are to:

Fly with its emotionally or psychologically disabled handler in the cabin of an aircraft without being charged a pet fee. Click here for detailed information on Flying with Your Emotional Support Animal.

Qualify for no-pet housing (that also includes limited size, breed, or species housing) without being charged a pet fee. Click here for detailed information on Housing Rights For You And Your ESA.

No other public or private entity (motels, restaurants, stores, trains, taxis, busses, theatres, parks, beaches, libraries, zoos, etc.) is required to allow your ESA to accompany you and in all other instances, your ESA has no more rights than a pet. That means they aren't protected by law to accompany you into any public place that does not allow pets. That doesn't mean these places won't let you, it just means that they are not required to, by law.

They've even got a house doctor if your legit one balks:

Quote:
If you have no therapist or your therapist is unwilling to write such a letter, we recommend using Chilhowee Psychological Services; a licensed mental health services agency that specializes in online/telephone disability assessments and offers letters of prescription to clients who qualify. This agency is approved by the U.S. Justice Department, U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and the U.S. Department of Transportation
Of course, appearance is everything:

Quote:
Registration is voluntary; not compulsory. But, registering your pet as an ESA not only legitimizes your ESA (making him/her look official), but eliminates nearly all the hassles and confrontation you'll encounter without it. That's the reason National Service Animal Registry exists: To make life easier for the disabled!
__________________
I'll bet you didn't notice that I was Totally ExoneratedTM when I wrote this.

Disavow any knowledge of my twitter here.
gerdbonk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 05:40 PM   #16
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Say what?

There's no evidence in the story that the dog was trained by the feds, much less that it was owned by the feds. The article said the marine owned the dog himself.
Maybe I'm misreading the statement "the U.S. Marine Corps who “advised that the dog was issued to him for support.”"

Whenever the Marines issued something to me, I was not the owner of the item, only the user. So I would say it's a bit unclear as to how he came into possession of face biter.

As to the dog trial, yes, they get them :

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/...58MMERE0QvLLJ/
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 05:45 PM   #17
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,385
Maybe the Marines told him, "go get yourself a support dog".
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 05:53 PM   #18
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Probably trained service dogs are amazing. I've seen them handle outrageous situations very appropriately (I saw a dog get his tail stepped on - he didn't yelp, he just crawled up onto the owner's lab looking very sad; such a good dog!). Improperly trained dogs, otoh, are a danger and they cannot be allowed.
Dogs tend to do that anyway if they are comfortable in their environment, and are well cared for. If they snap or run away it's usually a sign of underlying stress beyond the immediate stimulus. My own dog will come to me if he experiences any discomfort or nervousness, from someone stepping on his tail to a thorn in his paw to - and I kid you not - when he gets a biscuit stuck between his gum and his teeth.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 06:11 PM   #19
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,100
Quote:
we recommend using Chilhowee Psychological Services; a licensed mental health services agency that specializes in online/telephone disability assessments
lol
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 07:12 PM   #20
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,229
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
lol
"Thank you for calling Chilhowee Psychological Services, this is Dr. Drew, how may I help you today?"
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar

"Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk.
Polaris is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 07:19 PM   #21
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe the Marines told him, "go get yourself a support dog".
Well, I've been out for a while. I could see that if he went to a therapist and was told to get a support dog, they would have provided some sort of vendor I think. But the phrase "issued" means means that it's being provided by the Marines. So he could have gone to a vendor, got a dog, and the Marines paid for it as a medical issue.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 07:44 PM   #22
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 8,744
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I fully agree about actual service dogs. As an STTR, I've been around deaf and deaf-blind people with "hearing dogs" (that signal their owner, e.g., when the doorbell rings) and guide dogs. They're all well-behaved and properly trained. And in my country, at least, there's only one or a few recognized institutions that may train and/or certify them.
I have a friend who has one of these dogs.... a "hearing ear" dog. It has a slightly different response for each noise stimulus.

Microwave ding
Alarm clock
Doorbell
Telephone
Smoke Alarm
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 07:48 PM   #23
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,385
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Well, I've been out for a while. I could see that if he went to a therapist and was told to get a support dog, they would have provided some sort of vendor I think. But the phrase "issued" means means that it's being provided by the Marines. So he could have gone to a vendor, got a dog, and the Marines paid for it as a medical issue.
Sometimes reporters work in weird ways. The Marines may have issued a suggestion that he go get himself a support dog.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 10:32 PM   #24
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 45,427
I assume your airline can easily accommodate my emotional support shark. She's a great white named Miss Bitey. She will require a pretzel snack.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 04:40 AM   #25
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,782
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I fully agree about actual service dogs. As an STTR, I've been around deaf and deaf-blind people with "hearing dogs" (that signal their owner, e.g., when the doorbell rings) and guide dogs. They're all well-behaved and properly trained. And in my country, at least, there's only one or a few recognized institutions that may train and/or certify them.
This is the UK situation, as well, and obviously mostly if not wholly charities, at that.

Quote:
Say what?
In the UK it's usually the case that if the owner agrees, a dog in such a situation can be put down straight way, but if they object, it gets legal.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 20th January 2018 at 04:42 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 05:43 AM   #26
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Maybe I'm misreading the statement "the U.S. Marine Corps who “advised that the dog was issued to him for support.”"

Whenever the Marines issued something to me, I was not the owner of the item, only the user.
You're absolutely right, I overlooked that statement. That seems to imply the USMC is the owner. And the next sentence that he himself is.
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
So I would say it's a bit unclear as to how he came into possession of face biter.
Indeed. This Daily Fail article calls Mundy a veteran. What happens with USMC property when you're released from service? Oh, and it also contains pictures of the injuries.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
As to the dog trial, yes, they get them :

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/...58MMERE0QvLLJ/
Thank you. At least that one was impounded in a shelter awaiting its trial. The "emotional support dog" in the OP's story was put on the flight in the cargo bay in a kennel and returned to its owner as if nothing had happened.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 06:51 AM   #27
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,281
A phlegmatic support dog might be less likely to bite.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 07:52 AM   #28
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 27,624
What kind of Marine on active duty needs a goddamn emotional support dog? The next time America's in trouble, we're not calling them!

Seriously, something about this story smells fishy. Any other sources?
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady

"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky

"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will

Last edited by shemp; 20th January 2018 at 07:55 AM.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 08:05 AM   #29
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
This dog was telling its owner in the only way it could that it was not comfortable and that it felt threatened, and the owner did nothing about it. And what's the betting that the guy tells the story, like all bad owners do in these situations, that the dog 'suddenly snapped' and 'attacked for no reason' and 'without warning'. Dogs don't attack for no reason and they don't attack without warning. Another dead dog due to a useless owner.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 10:02 AM   #30
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 16,766
I'm curious if the dog had flown before or if the dog had a bad experience flying. I'd be willing to bet the dog hadn't been trained like a real service animal would be on how to deal with being in an airplane.
Craig4 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 10:11 AM   #31
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sometimes reporters work in weird ways. The Marines may have issued a suggestion that he go get himself a support dog.
Again, the disclaimer that I've been out for a while, the Marines don't issue suggestions. Or, at least, I hope they don't. Far too soft in the wording.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 10:18 AM   #32
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
What kind of Marine on active duty needs a goddamn emotional support dog? The next time America's in trouble, we're not calling them!

Seriously, something about this story smells fishy. Any other sources?
If he was in the process of mustering out on a medical discharge, hence the need for an emotional support dog, he would still be on active duty waiting for the discharge to be cut.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 10:33 AM   #33
Leftus
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're absolutely right, I overlooked that statement. That seems to imply the USMC is the owner. And the next sentence that he himself is.

Indeed. This Daily Fail article calls Mundy a veteran. What happens with USMC property when you're released from service? Oh, and it also contains pictures of the injuries.


Thank you. At least that one was impounded in a shelter awaiting its trial. The "emotional support dog" in the OP's story was put on the flight in the cargo bay in a kennel and returned to its owner as if nothing had happened.
I think it's just sloppy reporting as to the status of the owner.

Depends on the property, but most of it is returned but you can buy your way out of it if you really like some of it. My cold weather sleeping bag was downright awesome. But if he got the dog via a VA program, since he may be out of the service and in a transition state between USMC and the 1st Civ Div.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 11:15 AM   #34
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,600
The university at which I work, being state-funded, is particularly cognizant of rules involving disabilities and is still trying to work out how to deal with "emotional support" animals. As of now any animal becomes an emotional support/service animal if the owner simply declares as much. No training or documentation is required. A student can bring such an animal into a class, even a laboratory class, and all the instructor is permitted to do is to ask what kind of service is this "service" dog intended to perform. If any kind of service is noted in response (typically emotional support) - the animal must be permitted to stay.

Currently as far as I understand, the university does not permit the instructor to raise questions of safety, such as would arise with a large fidgety dog being brought into in a chemistry laboratory. I think the university is just avoiding the issue for now and these safety questions will only be answered definitively when they end up in court- either because an instructor is sued due to ignoring the university rules and forcing an animal to be removed due to safety issues, or due to the animal's owner (and the university) being sued by someone hurt due to the presence of the animal in the class.

Thankfully as far as I understand it, exotic animals are excluded from the mandatory-permitted category and no one can bring in a 6 foot python or a cobra as an emotional support animal (I must admit I do not understand how there is a legal basis for such a species-discrimination, but I am grateful for it nonetheless).

Personally I think that this is one of those circumstances where one person's rights and needs conflict with those of others and a practical compromise is the only fair solution. No doubt having a well trained and behaved "service" animal can be very valuable for individuals with significant emotional problems and there are many contexts in which such an animal would not be disruptive or a concern. But there are other contexts in which such an animal is inappropriate or even dangerous: should a surgeon have a right to bring an emotional support dog into the surgical theater with them? Or what of a second student in a class or office who is deathly afraid of dogs (perhaps because they were one of those rare cases of having been previously bitten by a pit bull mix)? Don't they have a right to not find themselves seated next to student one's emotional support malamute? What if an "support dog" is untrained and/or very aggressive?

Defining the correct compromises will be the only way to make this work (the support animals has to have authentic and well documented training, it can be brought into this situation but not this other one, the student and their animal must sit away from any one who objects, etc.).

And I do feel that the individuals who use the current rules to bring their untrained pets with them into inappropriate situations just because they like the company of their pet, rather than truly having a serious emotional need, are equivalent to people who are fully mobile but park in handicap spaces using fraudulently obtained permits. They are abusing the rules meant to help people who have much more serious needs.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 11:21 AM   #35
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,136
I have an emotional support dog story.

An institution I teach at has an early college program: Qualified high school students can earn college credit (and high school credit). In this case, I would conduct class on the high school campus in the early morning of the Fall semester.

This high school's administration was thoroughly dysfunctional, but after the first few weeks, I thought the worst was behind me. After handing in the mid-term exam, a student asked if she could bring her emotional support dog to class. I said two things: 1) I don't think I have the authority to say "no" if it's a disability issue, so thanks for asking; 2) You've made it this far, and you're doing fine, so why upset the apple cart? She insisted that she was barely keeping things together. "Well... that settles it. Bring the dog." Another student testified, and I quote, "The dog is cool."

So at our next meeting, Clayton the dog comes in. Despite being pretty big, he looked like a total pussy. I mean... he seemed nervous as hell. So I'm up there, lecturing my cast-iron heart out, and Clayton whimpers. Students chuckled. I acknowledge it and move on, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's a critic."

After the third or fourth interruption, I said to the student we'll call Allie: "Allie: Never. Again." Some chuckles because it was light-hearted (but also serious, since I have a black, metallic heart).

At the end of that class, I saw students scratching Clayton, and asked if I could pet him. She said "sure." In my head, I made a note: "I don't think strangers are allowed to pet service dogs... This is a FAKE support animal!"

Anyway, she ignored my request and kept bringing the ******* dog, and he kept wimpering. Whenever he squealed, she'd pet him and feed him treats. If she wanted to turn something in at the front, the dog would follow her (even if she told him to stay put).

A month or so later, the students were taking a quiz, and Clayton was having an especially bad day, which distracted my quiz-takers. This... pissed me off. He can interrupt my lectures, fine, but not a quiz. After class I told her that her dog was an "emotional mess" (he seemed more dependent on her than vice-versa). I questioned whether he was a real service dog since anyone can buy a vest. She acted offended. Clayton apparently studied his nutz off to pass some kind of certification. Of course, she kept bringing him.

Fast forward a week or two later and I get an e-mail from the dean, explaining that a student lodged a formal complaint: I made her feel "uncomfortable." The dean cited the two comments I mentioned ("Never. Again." and "emotional mess."). She wanted to hear my side of the story, so I called her up and explained my suspicions that it was a fake service dog.

The dean said that if the animal was a distraction, then I might have some authority to remove it. Technically, the classroom needs to comply with college's standards (initially, I stupidly assumed that since she was bringing this dog to all of her classes for the day, it would have been vetted by the high school. Unfortunately, the high school's administration sucks balls). My dean quickly dug up a vague PDF stating students are allowed to have either a dog OR -- get this -- a small horse. Like a ******* pony?! I dunno.

I said that my mind would be put at ease if the dog was vetted by DSPS. At this point we didn't have many more classes, so I said I didn't really care if she kept bringing him as long as he stayed away during the final exam.

Ten minutes before the final, the student brings documentation from DSPS and a smug smile on her face. I was humbled. Without reading it, I asked, "what does it say?"

"Well, since you said Clayton was bothering people, I'm supposed to get a quiet, isolated environment," and she indicated taking the test in an empty anteroom connected to the classroom. This was an absolute no-go; I can't monitor her in there. I just let her sit in her usual seat and moved everyone else away. During the exam, I read the documents. First, they were dated 10 days prior, so I should have seen them much sooner. Also, there's NO mention of a goddamn dog. NONE. She gets extra time and an extra quiet area. Of course, the only one making noise is her fake service animal.

After her final exam was figured in, she had an overall grade of 89.7%. I ALWAYS round scores this high to an A... and so, that's what I did. But if I see her on the street, I'm going to call her out.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

Last edited by Cain; 20th January 2018 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Removed a bad word.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 11:31 AM   #36
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,600
Originally Posted by baron View Post
This dog was telling its owner in the only way it could that it was not comfortable and that it felt threatened, and the owner did nothing about it. And what's the betting that the guy tells the story, like all bad owners do in these situations, that the dog 'suddenly snapped' and 'attacked for no reason' and 'without warning'. Dogs don't attack for no reason and they don't attack without warning. Another dead dog due to a useless owner.
If I had not been following the discussion in the pit bull thread I would have assumed you were being satirical. But this post is completely consistent with your repeated and vocal advocacy of the position that dogs only attack because of the failures of their owners or of their victims. Although I initially doubted this viewpoint, your position has begun to grow on me, and not only do I now agree it is true of dogs, I believe it is also true of rattlesnakes. They only attack for a reason, such as hunger or feeling threatened, and of course they are famous for providing a warning before they strike. Also I have never heard of a properly trained rattlesnake attacking a person, and I know that all rattlesnakes have been through emotional trauma due to lack of parental involvement during their crucial adolescent development stages.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 11:54 AM   #37
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,600
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I have an emotional support dog story.

An institution I teach at has an early college program: Qualified high school students can earn college credit (and high school credit). In this case, I would conduct class on the high school campus in the early morning of the Fall semester.

This high school's administration was thoroughly dysfunctional, but after the first few weeks, I thought the worst was behind me. After handing in the mid-term exam, a student asked if she could bring her emotional support dog to class. I said two things: 1) I don't think I have the authority to say "no" if it's a disability issue, so thanks for asking; 2) You've made it this far, and you're doing fine, so why upset the apple cart? She insisted that she was barely keeping things together. "Well... that settles it. Bring the dog." Another student testified, and I quote, "The dog is cool."

So at our next meeting, Clayton the dog comes in. Despite being pretty big, he looked like a total pussy. I mean... he seemed nervous as hell. So I'm up there, lecturing my cast-iron heart out, and Clayton whimpers. Students chuckled. I acknowledge it and move on, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's a critic."

After the third or fourth interruption, I said to the student we'll call Allie: "Allie: Never. Again." Some chuckles because it was light-hearted (but also serious, since I have a black, metallic heart).

At the end of that class, I saw students scratching Clayton, and asked if I could pet him. She said "sure." In my head, I made a note: "I don't think strangers are allowed to pet service dogs... This is a FAKE support animal!"

Anyway, she ignored my request and kept bringing the ******* dog, and he kept wimpering. Whenever he squealed, she'd pet him and feed him treats. If she wanted to turn something in at the front, the dog would follow her (even if she told him to stay put).

A month or so later, the students were taking a quiz, and Clayton was having an especially bad day, which distracted my quiz-takers. This... pissed me off. He can interrupt my lectures, fine, but not a quiz. After class I told her that her dog was an "emotional mess" (he seemed more dependent on her than vice-versa). I questioned whether he was a real service dog since anyone can buy a vest. She acted offended. Clayton apparently studied his nutz off to pass some kind of certification. Of course, she kept bringing him.

Fast forward a week or two later and I get an e-mail from the dean, explaining that a student lodged a formal complaint: I made her feel "uncomfortable." The dean cited the two comments I mentioned ("Never. Again." and "emotional mess."). She wanted to hear my side of the story, so I called her up and explained my suspicions that it was a fake service dog.

The dean said that if the animal was a distraction, then I might have some authority to remove it. Technically, the classroom needs to comply with college's standards (initially, I stupidly assumed that since she was bringing this dog to all of her classes for the day, it would have been vetted by the high school. Unfortunately, the high school's administration sucks balls). My dean quickly dug up a vague PDF stating students are allowed to have either a dog OR -- get this -- a small horse. Like a ******* pony?! I dunno.

I said that my mind would be put at ease if the dog was vetted by DSPS. At this point we didn't have many more classes, so I said I didn't really care if she kept bringing him as long as he stayed away during the final exam.

Ten minutes before the final, the student brings documentation from DSPS and a smug smile on her face. I was humbled. Without reading it, I asked, "what does it say?"

"Well, since you said Clayton was bothering people, I'm supposed to get a quiet, isolated environment," and she indicated taking the test in an empty anteroom connected to the classroom. This was an absolute no-go; I can't monitor her in there. I just let her sit in her usual seat and moved everyone else away. During the exam, I read the documents. First, they were dated 10 days prior, so I should have seen them much sooner. Also, there's NO mention of a goddamn dog. NONE. She gets extra time and an extra quiet area. Of course, the only one making noise is her fake service animal.

After her final exam was figured in, she had an overall grade of 89.7%. I ALWAYS round scores this high to an A... and so, that's what I did. But if I see her on the street, I'm going to call her out.
You bring up several points that I too have observed. One is that school administrators are typically very legal-risk adverse and will avoid any action that might under any interpretation, however broad or bizarre, violate a rule. "Don't rock the [legal] boat" is their mantra. Inconveniences, disruptions, etc. are not as big a concern for them, and it requires fear of violating another rule for them to even begin to consider the practical consequences of the way they implemented the first rule.

Second is that as you mention authentic service dogs are trained to not interact with others (people or animals) and to pretty much ignore any other distractions- their job is to focus on their owner. A "properly trained owner" would never allow their service dog to be petted by others. I also think that service animals are not fed when they are on duty, and they certainly are trained to be non-disruptive (in my town there are wonderful adoption programs for the dogs that enter into, but drop out of service dog training because they are very sweet and smart but cannot become the focused and disciplined animals required. They become pets, not service dogs).

Third- students with special needs at my university also can obtain special test taking allowances on request. But they must notify the instructor well in advance (days or weeks) to allow the time required to arrange the special accommodations. My university has, after some early confusion, worked this out pretty well.

Finally of course it is easy to look like an evil ogre in this type of situation, isn't it? It's almost like being against puppies... well, actually it is very much like being against puppies (although more grown up).
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 12:16 PM   #38
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If I had not been following the discussion in the pit bull thread I would have assumed you were being satirical. But this post is completely consistent with your repeated and vocal advocacy of the position that dogs only attack because of the failures of their owners or of their victims. Although I initially doubted this viewpoint, your position has begun to grow on me, and not only do I now agree it is true of dogs, I believe it is also true of rattlesnakes. They only attack for a reason, such as hunger or feeling threatened, and of course they are famous for providing a warning before they strike. Also I have never heard of a properly trained rattlesnake attacking a person, and I know that all rattlesnakes have been through emotional trauma due to lack of parental involvement during their crucial adolescent development stages.
Apart from your last sentence, which is puerile, you're on the right track. Without even mentioning Mr Jackson, who would be at fault if someone brought a rattlesnake onto a plane and it attacked someone? Would it be the rattlesnake (which must of course be taken away and killed immediately for its crime) or would it be the fool who brought it onto the plane, curled it over his knee and ignored it when it rattled for ten minutes at the bloke sitting next to him?

Don't rush the answer now, it's a tricky one.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 12:18 PM   #39
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,176
Where I reside - British Columbia, Canada - service dogs must be certified and:

"Therapy and emotional support animals, including dogs, are not eligible for certification."

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/j...nd-service-dog
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2018, 12:19 PM   #40
Elagabalus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,624
In all fairness, the dog in question DOES look pretty cute wearing sunglasses:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...passenger.html

The Marine, on the other hand ...
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:47 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.