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Tags airplane incidents , airplane issues , animal incidents

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Old 21st January 2018, 04:20 PM   #81
Polaris
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
snipped re: other ESAN's (it's the airline code)

Cats: WTF.
I've only had passengers call about cats as pets in cabin, never as emotional service animals (service animals can only be dogs). Even leaving allergy issues aside, I have two of the varmints, and I can't imagine either of them - even the little one who's pretty chill - staying calm for a short plane trip. Hell, they're nervous wrecks after a 20 minute car ride to the vet!
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Old 22nd January 2018, 10:51 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I've only had passengers call about cats as pets in cabin, never as emotional service animals (service animals can only be dogs). Even leaving allergy issues aside, I have two of the varmints, and I can't imagine either of them - even the little one who's pretty chill - staying calm for a short plane trip. Hell, they're nervous wrecks after a 20 minute car ride to the vet!
It's not the car ride. They know where they are going.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:54 PM   #83
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Delta cracks down on emotional support animals as incidents surge on planes

Originally Posted by Washington Post
...The mauling, which Delta said was inflicted by a canine identified as an “emotional support” animal, was among the thousands of incidents that just pushed the nation’s largest airline to tighten rules for passengers flying with service or comfort animals. In announcing the changes Friday, Delta said it flew 250,000 animals in those categories last year, an increase of 150 percent from 2015, while “incidents” such as biting or defecating had nearly doubled since 2016.

Delta’s announcement emphasized safety concerns, but it also was spurred by a widespread perception among airlines and disability rights advocates that some fliers are fraudulently taking advantage of federal law to bring untrained pets of myriad species into crowded cabins...

...a surge in poorly trained animals that has turned some flights into airborne menageries, with dogs blocking beverage carts, cats urinating on seats and ducks wandering the aisles...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mals-on-planes
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:02 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Washington Post
Delta also recently expanded its list of prohibited critters, including “farm poultry,” hedgehogs and anything with tusks.
Worth quoting. Lady, you can't bring Tusker.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:11 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I cannot stress enough how much that this just isn't an option.

The whole "Service Animal" thing (at least here in the states) has turned into a damn near cult level fervor.

The idea that it is 100%, across the board, no exception totally unreasonable to question the validity of a service animal in any scenario regardless of the context and environment and the idea that it is brutally unfair to expect service animals to go through any sort of vetting, training, registration or identification process of any kind is pretty well established here. I cannot over-stress the hostility that even bringing this idea up will bring you.

People treat any questioning of a service animal's legitimacy as a legit, directed attack on the person in question and disability as a concept.

The absolute only standard a lot of people with accept is "I can take any animal I want anywhere I want as long as I call it a service animal."

I think there is likely to be a backlash against calling Support Animals by the misleading name Service Animals. As that occurs businesses are going to realize that they have little risk in allowing Service Animals and refusing Support Animals.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:11 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Washington Post
...untrained pets of myriad species into crowded cabins...

I'd just like to point out for the record that my species is very well-behaved and can be completely cabin-trained with a modicum of effort. Unfortunately we're too big to fit under the seat in front of you, but squeezing into an overhead compartment is an option.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:28 PM   #87
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What is wrong with requiring people who bring animals into public spaces that don't usually allow animals prove that the animal is a trained service animal? We need placards for handicapped parking with fines for abusing that system . . . how is this different?

This has become a big deal on cruise ships. Dogs are strictly prohibited. It used to be that every once in awhile you'd see a blind person with a service animal. Nowadays, every cruise I've been on the last couple of years has had at least two or three "ESAs" which are, to all outward appearances, pets.

It sure beats kenneling your pet . . .
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:40 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What is wrong with requiring people who bring animals into public spaces that don't usually allow animals prove that the animal is a trained service animal?
Because in a lot of people's mind that's either an undue burden or a direct personal attack on "disabled people" as a concept.

Quote:
We need placards for handicapped parking with fines for abusing that system . . . how is this different?
I don't know. All I do know is I have gotten more crap over the mere suggestion that service animals exist on anything other than a pure honor system than any thing else, and I don't exactly have the more popular opinions about everything.

Quote:
This has become a big deal on cruise ships. Dogs are strictly prohibited. It used to be that every once in awhile you'd see a blind person with a service animal. Nowadays, every cruise I've been on the last couple of years has had at least two or three "ESAs" which are, to all outward appearances, pets.
Well... that's because that's exactly what they are. They don't even pretend to be anything else. The entire "Emotional Support Animal" trend is co-oping the concept of a service animal (just without that part that requires training and to actually, you know, do something) by latching the concept of an animal that "makes you feel better" or "calms you down" to it.

But I'm telling you people are attached like you wouldn't believe to this concept and get down right hostile and toxic if it's even questioned.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What is wrong with requiring people who bring animals into public spaces that don't usually allow animals prove that the animal is a trained service animal? We need placards for handicapped parking with fines for abusing that system . . . how is this different?
Who's doing the enforcing? Only a cop can ticket someone for parking in a handicap spot without the right paperwork. Will there be cops on airplanes, in restaurants, and stores to ticket people with improper animals? The point of the whole "don't question them" thing is that Walmart managers are not qualified to judge the suitability of a service animal, and it would be a greater burden on the disabled to have to constantly appease the untrained scrutiny and judgment of unaccountable corporate minions than it is to have someone smuggle a poodle in where it shouldn't be.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:43 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think there is likely to be a backlash against calling Support Animals by the misleading name Service Animals. As that occurs businesses are going to realize that they have little risk in allowing Service Animals and refusing Support Animals.
Not a chance, at least for a very long time.

Big bad evil faceless greedy company against the poor widdle disabled person and their adorable pet? That's public relations suicide.

I mean somebody might try, but I put folding money on the table right now that they'll wind up in full on public relations damage control mode before it's over.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 03:52 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think there is likely to be a backlash against calling Support Animals by the misleading name Service Animals. As that occurs businesses are going to realize that they have little risk in allowing Service Animals and refusing Support Animals.
The local Safeway store in Belfair has a sign welcoming service animals. It also says emotional support animals and pets are not welcome. I only noticed it yesterday, not sure how long it's been there.

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Old 22nd January 2018, 04:00 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The local Safeway store in Belfair has a sign welcoming service animals. It also says emotional support animals and pets are not welcome. I only noticed it yesterday, not sure how long it's been there.

Ranb
Ours has the same sign. It points out that it's in accord with state law. Morons just bring dogs in anyhow.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 04:42 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Delta cracks down on emotional support animals as incidents surge on planes




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mals-on-planes


The other issues aside I can't think of many flights I've been on which wouldn't have been improved by the presence of "ducks wandering the aisles".
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Old 22nd January 2018, 05:36 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who's doing the enforcing? Only a cop can ticket someone for parking in a handicap spot without the right paperwork. Will there be cops on airplanes, in restaurants, and stores to ticket people with improper animals? The point of the whole "don't question them" thing is that Walmart managers are not qualified to judge the suitability of a service animal, and it would be a greater burden on the disabled to have to constantly appease the untrained scrutiny and judgment of unaccountable corporate minions than it is to have someone smuggle a poodle in where it shouldn't be.


A system much like we use for parking would work fine. Have a doctor fill out a form and the state issue a certificate. Have the dogs come from approved programs. When you want to bring the dog on board, you show the little card legitimizing it. It would cut down on the people who just want to bring pets.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 05:38 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A system much like we use for parking would work fine. Have a doctor fill out a form and the state issue a certificate. Have the dogs come from approved programs. When you want to bring the dog on board, you show the little card legitimizing it. It would cut down on the people who just want to bring pets.
But the point is if I drive to my local Walmart and park in a handicap spot without a tag or placard the Walmart Manager or Cashier or Stockboy can't actually come out and move my car. All they can do is call the police or (more likely) ignore it and hope a beat cop on patrol notices it.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 05:53 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But the point is if I drive to my local Walmart and park in a handicap spot without a tag or placard the Walmart Manager or Cashier or Stockboy can't actually come out and move my car. All they can do is call the police or (more likely) ignore it and hope a beat cop on patrol notices it.


Right. But on a plane, it’s “No ID, no boarding.” You can’t get past the gate without having a boarding pass, an ID. It would be little additional burden to have a “ticket” for the service animal.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 05:59 PM   #97
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If TSA agents are competent to check ID, they're competent to check pet ID.

If nightclub bouncers are competent to deny entrance without valid ID, then airline gate agents are competent to deny entrance without valid ID.

It's not really a mystery, Tragic Monkey.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 06:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Right. But on a plane, it’s “No ID, no boarding.” You can’t get past the gate without having a boarding pass, an ID. It would be little additional burden to have a “ticket” for the service animal.
And I still say that more likely outcome is they quickly learn that the negative publicity from the first person that they try to deny boarding who decides to make a big deal out of it on a slow news day is simply not worth it.

I mean all it takes is one Youtube video of some poor disabled person not being allowed to travel with their support marmoset or whatever to go viral and any sympathy for the business or other passengers inconvenienced or even assault by them goes away. The public is a fickle and easily distracted.

Unless these "support animals" become a much bigger and constant problem it will be cheaper and far, far, far more easy on the public relations to just deal with the problems they create.

A couple of one-off cases spread out over years will not swing public opinion of this for long.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 06:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I still say that more likely outcome is they quickly learn that the negative publicity from the first person that they try to deny boarding who decides to make a big deal out of it on a slow news day is simply not worth it.



I mean all it takes is one Youtube video of some poor disabled person not being allowed to travel with their support marmoset or whatever to go viral and any sympathy for the business or other passengers inconvenienced or even assault by them goes away. The public is a fickle and easily distracted.



Unless these "support animals" become a much bigger and constant problem it will be cheaper and far, far, far more easy on the public relations to just deal with the problems they create.



A couple of one-off cases spread out over years will not swing public opinion of this for long.


I hear you and you are probably right from a practical standpoint.

But YouTube videos can go either way. Look at the horrible airline/Look at the entitled doofus. I think this attack might be a point where people start rethinking this issue.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 06:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I hear you and you are probably right from a practical standpoint.

But YouTube videos can go either way. Look at the horrible airline/Look at the entitled doofus. I think this attack might be a point where people start rethinking this issue.
"Disabled person" + "animal" is way too far into the "weaponized outrage generator" side of the argument, especially when the other side is airlines, big chain stores, and other places that are already on most people's hate list.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:28 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If TSA agents are competent to check ID, they're competent to check pet ID.

If nightclub bouncers are competent to deny entrance without valid ID, then airline gate agents are competent to deny entrance without valid ID.

It's not really a mystery, Tragic Monkey.
And who else is competent, and authorized to demand the papers? Walmart greeters? Waitresses? My point wasn't that acquiring a license or paperwork is difficult, it's that you then have to decide who can and can't demand to see it, who is allowed to decide said paperwork is or isn't acceptable, under what circumstances can people be compelled to provide it? And what happens if they don't have the paperwork? Citizens arrest? Denial of service? A stoning? Call the cops? A civil fine? Who issues these papers? What body is accredited to judge the animals and their purported purpose? Who decides who can and can't have said animals? How do they track it? Do they do inspections? Do they test? What is the extent of their authority? What powers do they have for enforcement?

It's not really a mystery, the prestige, that licensing is more complex than handing out pieces of paper.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:30 PM   #102
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And this is where the discussion always breaks.

Mostly everyone (ostensibly) agrees that at least some form of vetting for service animals is a reasonable enough idea.

But every single practical application of it is rejected for one reason or another. And a legal concept with no way to enforce is functionally meaningless.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:38 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And this is where the discussion always breaks.

Mostly everyone (ostensibly) agrees that at least some form of vetting for service animals is a reasonable enough idea.

But every single practical application of it is rejected for one reason or another. And a legal concept with no way to enforce is functionally meaningless.
Oh, I'm all for a practical application. I'm just saying it wouldn't be easy, and it wouldn't be cheap. Would the benefits of having a more tightly controlled service animal industry be worth the cost and effort?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:42 PM   #104
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Me personally? Yes. And it's not just about the annoyance and sporadic harm these animals do. It's the fact that people are co-opting a law put into place to help people with legit problems and using the emotional sympathy other people have for real actual conditions as their main defense. I find that sort of thing.. distasteful to a degree beyond it's literal objective impact.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:50 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Me personally? Yes. And it's not just about the annoyance and sporadic harm these animals do. It's the fact that people are co-opting a law put into place to help people with legit problems and using the emotional sympathy other people have for real actual conditions as their main defense. I find that sort of thing.. distasteful to a degree beyond it's literal objective impact.
People feel the same about potential welfare fraud, which is why we had that thing for a while where we spent more taxpayer money monitoring welfare recipients to make sure they weren't taking drugs than we actually spent on welfare itself. A waste of public money in the name of fairness and justice and decency is still a waste of public money. Sometimes the right thing to do is let it go.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:58 PM   #106
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In the interim, couldn't airlines just require that a) service animals have their own seat, and b) service animals have to be harnessed to said seat when not taking their passenger to the bathroom? They even make babies above a certain age have their own seats, and people aren't supposed to be wandering around the cabin during flight anyway except if they have to use the bathroom.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 08:07 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And who else is competent, and authorized to demand the papers? Walmart greeters? Waitresses? My point wasn't that acquiring a license or paperwork is difficult, it's that you then have to decide who can and can't demand to see it, who is allowed to decide said paperwork is or isn't acceptable, under what circumstances can people be compelled to provide it? And what happens if they don't have the paperwork? Citizens arrest? Denial of service? A stoning? Call the cops? A civil fine? Who issues these papers? What body is accredited to judge the animals and their purported purpose? Who decides who can and can't have said animals? How do they track it? Do they do inspections? Do they test? What is the extent of their authority? What powers do they have for enforcement?



It's not really a mystery, the prestige, that licensing is more complex than handing out pieces of paper.


No certificate; no entry. The greeter can monitor. Of course, there is no need to monitor of the store decides “we’ll take your word for it.”

It doesn’t have to be complicated.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 08:11 PM   #108
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According to Wikipedia's entry for ESAs:

Originally Posted by Wiki
The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) allows people with disabilities to bring their service animals in public places.[10] However, the ADA only extends these protections to dogs that have been "individually trained" to "perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability," which is the definition of service animals under 28 C.F.R. § 36.104.[10] Since emotional support animals are typically not trained for an individual's specific disability and since emotional support animals might not be dogs, they do not receive the protections of the ADA.[10] A public place can therefore deny an emotional support animal admission.
So there's that. Wiki also states that "Emotional support animals, typically dogs, but sometimes cats or other animals, may be used by people with a range of physical, psychiatric, or intellectual disabilities". OK, so I am wondering if the place of public accommodation can refuse other services to this pet owner...I mean disabled emotional support animal owner. For instance, deny the serving of alcoholic beverages. No way of knowing the extent of their claimed psychological or intellectual disability, right? Perhaps they could refuse any financial transactions, to guard against inadvertently taking advantage of someone with an unknown intellectual disability?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_support_animal
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Old 22nd January 2018, 08:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
People feel the same about potential welfare fraud, which is why we had that thing for a while where we spent more taxpayer money monitoring welfare recipients to make sure they weren't taking drugs than we actually spent on welfare itself. A waste of public money in the name of fairness and justice and decency is still a waste of public money. Sometimes the right thing to do is let it go.
There can hardly be anything more important than imposing new regulations on poor or disabled individuals in the name of principle.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 09:12 PM   #110
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Or, maybe it’s about balancing the legitimate needs of the disabled with public health and safety.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 09:48 PM   #111
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Wouldn't one have to demonstrate a significant threat to "public health and safety" before enabling the harassment of the disabled? Or does one story about a dog bite on a plane take care of that? If it does, then why haven't all dogs over some designated weight been banned?
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Old 22nd January 2018, 10:13 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Wouldn't one have to demonstrate a significant threat to "public health and safety" before enabling the harassment of the disabled? Or does one story about a dog bite on a plane take care of that? If it does, then why haven't all dogs over some designated weight been banned?
I think one story is enough to illustrate the dangers of letting untrained dogs lose in a confined space filled with people. I think you will start to see some banning. I don’t see banning what are, for all intents and purposes, pets on a plane as harassment of the disabled.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:06 PM   #113
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1. This thread (including at least one of your posts made today) is not only about airplanes.
2. The vast majority of "legitimate" service animals will be dogs used by the blind. Requiring them to produce documentation every time someone decides to require it would indeed be harassment.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not a chance, at least for a very long time.

Big bad evil faceless greedy company against the poor widdle disabled person and their adorable pet? That's public relations suicide.
So is roughing up a passenger on your airline like United did, didn't hurt their bottom line.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...508-story.html

I mean what are you going to do, drive to where you are going?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:40 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Me personally? Yes. And it's not just about the annoyance and sporadic harm these animals do. It's the fact that people are co-opting a law put into place to help people with legit problems and using the emotional sympathy other people have for real actual conditions as their main defense. I find that sort of thing.. distasteful to a degree beyond it's literal objective impact.
Of course you wouldn't be the one paying, it would be the blind guy paying more for his seeing eye dog, raising the cost from the existing $50,000 to say $75,000.

https://www.guidingeyes.org/learn/faqs/

So this raised cost means fewer people who need them get service animals.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:43 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think one story is enough to illustrate the dangers of letting untrained dogs lose in a confined space filled with people. I think you will start to see some banning. I don’t see banning what are, for all intents and purposes, pets on a plane as harassment of the disabled.
Large expensive government regulated programs are your solution to everything.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:43 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not a chance, at least for a very long time.

Big bad evil faceless greedy company against the poor widdle disabled person and their adorable pet? That's public relations suicide.

I mean somebody might try, but I put folding money on the table right now that they'll wind up in full on public relations damage control mode before it's over.
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The local Safeway store in Belfair has a sign welcoming service animals. It also says emotional support animals and pets are not welcome. I only noticed it yesterday, not sure how long it's been there.

Ranb
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ours has the same sign. It points out that it's in accord with state law. Morons just bring dogs in anyhow.
Sounds like some stores are setting the stage to enforce the difference between service dogs and ESAs. I think if they set a clear line it will not hurt them one bit.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:49 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ours has the same sign. It points out that it's in accord with state law. Morons just bring dogs in anyhow.
They aren't morons. They are ********.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:51 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
1. This thread (including at least one of your posts made today) is not only about airplanes.
2. The vast majority of "legitimate" service animals will be dogs used by the blind. Requiring them to produce documentation every time someone decides to require it would indeed be harassment.
Service dogs for the blind are quite obviously identifiable as such, not least by the harness they wear and their behaviour. A pooch on a lead is a different matter and the fact that the owner is not blind is likely to be apparent.

MrsB gets disabled assistance on flights and is obviously in need of it, yet she still carries her disabled i.d. with her and wouldn't mind producing it wherever she uses special facilities for the disabled. I doubt if blind people would mind either if the outcome is that some arses stop taking the mickey out of the system.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 08:10 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I doubt if blind people would mind either if the outcome is that some arses stop taking the mickey out of the system.
The American Foundation for the Blind and Guiding Eyes (the largest charitable supplier of legit service animals) have both spoken out against fake service animals. The ADA is also against them.

The "But it will be suuuuch a burden" voices all come from somewhere else.
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