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Tags airplane incidents , airplane issues , animal incidents

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Old 23rd January 2018, 08:43 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Sounds like some stores are setting the stage to enforce the difference between service dogs and ESAs. I think if they set a clear line it will not hurt them one bit.
Except that despite the signs, they don't do anything about it.

The state ferries also have those signs. You are allowed to bring your pet through the cabin to the outside deck area, but not keep it in the cabin, although I expect pets in kennels/carriers would be ok. Given our weather, the outside deck is often not an option. And like the stores, the ferries don't enforce either.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 08:44 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The American Foundation for the Blind and Guiding Eyes (the largest charitable supplier of legit service animals) have both spoken out against fake service animals. The ADA is also against them.

The "But it will be suuuuch a burden" voices all come from somewhere else.
There is a difference between being against them, and being for a specific regulatory means to achieve their goal. Most people are against background check less guns sales. But coming up with an administrative means that people support to prevent that isn't easy.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 08:53 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is a difference between being against them, and being for a specific regulatory means to achieve their goal. Most people are against background check less guns sales. But coming up with an administrative means that people support to prevent that isn't easy.
Well that's what I said before. Everybody is ostensibly for it in the abstract, the claws just come out when any practical application of it is even suggested. And a legal concept that you reject every possible application is a legal concept you reject the validity of in theory.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd January 2018 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:00 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is a difference between being against them, and being for a specific regulatory means to achieve their goal. Most people are against background check less guns sales. But coming up with an administrative means that people support to prevent that isn't easy.
Is it hard? If you book a flight claiming your dog is a 'service dog' and the airline staff have good reason to suppose it isn't (see my previous post) then they ask to see your credentials. If there are none then the dog goes in a crate in the hold - if there's time - and is paid for, as non-service dogs should be. Ditto shops, just deny entry. Guide dogs are easily identifiable.

Turkeys, cats, pigs? Under no circumstances.

Hell, I'm going to get my doctor to write a note that I need 'emotional support cigarettes' next time I fly
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:12 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Is it hard? If you book a flight claiming your dog is a 'service dog' and the airline staff have good reason to suppose it isn't (see my previous post) then they ask to see your credentials. If there are none then the dog goes in a crate in the hold - if there's time - and is paid for, as non-service dogs should be. Ditto shops, just deny entry. Guide dogs are easily identifiable.

Turkeys, cats, pigs? Under no circumstances.

Hell, I'm going to get my doctor to write a note that I need 'emotional support cigarettes' next time I fly
Especially if the airline makes it clear at booking that ESAs are not service animals and will be treated as pets. I know Joe thinks there will be hell to pay, and he may be right, but I don't think it is hard to say that you are protecting the rights of the disabled.

I've seen businesses that were very strict about handicap parking and their customers never punished them for it. It is a choice as a business.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:14 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
If you book a flight claiming your dog is a 'service dog' and the airline staff have good reason to suppose it isn't (see my previous post) then they ask to see your credentials.
Here's my credentials. I printed them off a dodgy internet site this morning. I can also buy harness, medical certificates, even notes from doctors. Are you going to question me on that Mr. Airport Guy? I'd like to see you try. You airlines are already in the doghouse for kicking people off flights. How would your stock holders like another viral video? I don't care what the law says, I will win the court of public opinions and as a business that's more important to you.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:17 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I've seen businesses that were very strict about handicap parking and their customers never punished them for it. It is a choice as a business.
There's a difference. A fake parking in a handicapped parking spot is actually taking that spot away from someone else. There's a risk-reward factor in place for the business. If a legit disabled person can't park at the store because a faker has taken the spot, the business actually loses something tangible.

Someone bringing their "Emotional Support Llama" into the store doesn't stop someone else from bringing their Seeing Eye Dog into the store. It makes better business sense to just say "Yes" to everything and avoid the potential public relations nightmare of being seen as "anti-disabled."
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:21 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Is it hard? If you book a flight claiming your dog is a 'service dog' and the airline staff have good reason to suppose it isn't (see my previous post) then they ask to see your credentials. If there are none then the dog goes in a crate in the hold - if there's time - and is paid for, as non-service dogs should be. Ditto shops, just deny entry. Guide dogs are easily identifiable.
What is the paperwork that shows a legitimate service animal vs a fake? A letter from a doctor is way to easy to fake or have quack naturopaths sign off on.

Lets start with it at first, what are the legal qualifications defining what is and is not a service animal? Seeing eye dogs sure, but what about say epileptic warning dogs?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:22 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's my credentials. I printed them off a dodgy internet site this morning. I can also buy harness, medical certificates, even notes from doctors. Are you going to question me on that Mr. Airport Guy? I'd like to see you try. You airlines are already in the doghouse for kicking people off flights. How would your stock holders like another viral video? I don't care what the law says, I will win the court of public opinions and as a business that's more important to you.
Not really the stock holders didn't care as those draging off a flight videos didn't hurt the airlines. What are people now going to take the train?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:27 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's my credentials. I printed them off a dodgy internet site this morning. I can also buy harness, medical certificates, even notes from doctors. Are you going to question me on that Mr. Airport Guy? I'd like to see you try. You airlines are already in the doghouse for kicking people off flights. How would your stock holders like another viral video? I don't care what the law says, I will win the court of public opinions and as a business that's more important to you.
Non-service dogs savaging passengers and pigs crapping in aisles doesn't do a lot for the ol' image either. Meanwhile a guide dog behaves like one, and a blind passenger is likely to behave like a blind person. It isn't as hard as you make out, and the first exposure of 'fraudulent imitation of a disabled person' is going to deter those gaming the system.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:45 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a difference. A fake parking in a handicapped parking spot is actually taking that spot away from someone else. There's a risk-reward factor in place for the business. If a legit disabled person can't park at the store because a faker has taken the spot, the business actually loses something tangible.

Someone bringing their "Emotional Support Llama" into the store doesn't stop someone else from bringing their Seeing Eye Dog into the store. It makes better business sense to just say "Yes" to everything and avoid the potential public relations nightmare of being seen as "anti-disabled."
It diminishes the very real issue of service dogs and limits the experience of other customers. There is a reason some stores only allow service animals. Calling your pet an ESA does nothing to remove those reasons. It just insults actual service animals and makes life harder for them.

I don't want to have a dog roaming the deli of my grocery store unless I know that dog needs to be there and is trained to be there. I am the customer who will ask someone to leave the store if I see them with a non-service animal. I will expect the store to enforce their rules if the person doesn't leave with their pet. I will complain to management and I will make it hard on them if they don't think this is an issue. There are a lot of others like me even if your facebook feed makes it seem unlikely.

That sounds argumentative even though I know we are actually on the same side here. Our only disagreement is whether the rationality of our position will ever be accepted. I guess I'm just more optimistic than you.

I know people who have emotional support animals and acknowledge they are gaming the system. I tell them to their faces that they are playing a dangerous game and that they better be careful about how much they try to impose their pet upon society. Maybe if we had a more open outlook on pets being allowed in more settings, like maybe the French, then it wouldn't be so attractive to use this apparent loophole. I don't know.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:48 AM   #132
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Oh I'm totally on your side.

I just don't think there's a viable way to introduce anything on a practical level.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:49 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What is the paperwork that shows a legitimate service animal vs a fake? A letter from a doctor is way to easy to fake or have quack naturopaths sign off on.

Lets start with it at first, what are the legal qualifications defining what is and is not a service animal? Seeing eye dogs sure, but what about say epileptic warning dogs?
I trust that most people are not willing to lie that their dog is a service dog if it is actually and ESA. It rarely happened prior to ESAs muddying the water and I doubt most people would outright lie if asked directly if their dog's service was limited to emotional support. I'm sure there will be exceptions.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:51 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm totally on your side.
Yeah, I just wasn't willing to edit that para to be more polite.

Quote:
I just don't think there's a viable way to introduce anything on a practical level.
Store employees need to start asking one very simple question: Is this your emotional support animal?

Then explain the stores policy as politely as possible. Then enforce the policy.

I really think few people will lie when pressed. If they do, then it is on them.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:55 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Large expensive government regulated programs are your solution to everything.


Not everything, but government regulation does have its place.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:56 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It diminishes the very real issue of service dogs and limits the experience of other customers. There is a reason some stores only allow service animals.
Namely ones that abide by the ADA.

No one here is actually defending Emotional support animals. It is just about how to differentiate the legitimate ones from the non. And no one is even giving standards to apply broadly to various forms of support animals that are OK.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:01 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Namely ones that abide by the ADA.

No one here is actually defending Emotional support animals. It is just about how to differentiate the legitimate ones from the non. And no one is even giving standards to apply broadly to various forms of support animals that are OK.
Actually, under the ADA there are standards and they have been mentioned in this thread. Basically:

1. The person must be "disabled" ... usually this can be proven with a parking tag or other document.
2. The service animal in question must perform some specific task relevant to the disability.

Proving "emotional support" is not considered a "task" based on the ADA guidelines.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:06 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Actually, under the ADA there are standards and they have been mentioned in this thread. Basically:

1. The person must be "disabled" ... usually this can be proven with a parking tag or other document.
2. The service animal in question must perform some specific task relevant to the disability.

Proving "emotional support" is not considered a "task" based on the ADA guidelines.
So taking someone for moral support in trying situations means the do nothing, and are of no benefit? That vague wording needs to be run through the courts for specific case effects on when it holds or does not hold.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:09 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So taking someone for moral support in trying situations means the do nothing, and are of no benefit? That vague wording needs to be run through the courts for specific case effects on when it holds or does not hold.
It is already the law and standard practice to deny emotional support animals the same access as legitimate service animals. Some private entities simply choose not to enforce these standards for a variety of reasons.
Fear of bad PR, lawsuits, lack of informed personnel, etc.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:10 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's my credentials. I printed them off a dodgy internet site this morning. I can also buy harness, medical certificates, even notes from doctors. Are you going to question me on that Mr. Airport Guy? I'd like to see you try. You airlines are already in the doghouse for kicking people off flights. How would your stock holders like another viral video? I don't care what the law says, I will win the court of public opinions and as a business that's more important to you.


Yes, you can pay an unscrupulous doctor to give you a letter to get a certificate. You can buy harnesses, etc. it would be harder to print a legitimate “Doggy is trained” certificate, especially if there are only a few certifying organizations. Even so, how many people are going to go through all of that just to bring their pet along?

Then there is the matter of legitimacy. The ADA does not require ESAs to be allowed. So far, this has been an accommodation allowed on a purely voluntary basis by public facilities. An incident like this raises awareness in the public that perhaps ESAs are not really a thing. That viral video has a good chance of going the other way: “look at this idiot trying to pass off their pet as service animal! How dare they exploit the legitimate needs of the blind!”

In such an environment the PR hit may be very small and the airlines willing to ban ESAs may be hailed as doing the right thing.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:15 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And who else is competent, and authorized to demand the papers? Walmart greeters? Waitresses? My point wasn't that acquiring a license or paperwork is difficult, it's that you then have to decide who can and can't demand to see it, who is allowed to decide said paperwork is or isn't acceptable, under what circumstances can people be compelled to provide it? And what happens if they don't have the paperwork? Citizens arrest? Denial of service? A stoning? Call the cops? A civil fine? Who issues these papers? What body is accredited to judge the animals and their purported purpose? Who decides who can and can't have said animals? How do they track it? Do they do inspections? Do they test? What is the extent of their authority? What powers do they have for enforcement?
All of these problems, except for having a regulatory or standards body to actually issue the ID, have already been solved.

What happens when someone shows up to a bar or nightclub without a valid ID? The problem of who's competent to judge this has already been solved. The problem of what happens to the person has already been solved. No mystery there.

What happens when someone shows up a TSA security checkpoint without a valid ID? The problem of who's competent to judge this has already been solved. The problem of what happens to the person has already been solved. No mystery there.

What happens when someone shows up an airline gate without a boarding pass? The problem of who's competent to judge this has already been solved. The problem of what happens to the person has already been solved. No mystery there.

The big question is who will issue IDs. This is not a simple problem, and I have some ideas I'd like to discuss with you, see what you think. But your talk of "stoning" is kind of throwing me off. Can we have a reasonable discussion?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:26 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In such an environment the PR hit may be very small and the airlines willing to ban ESAs may be hailed as doing the right thing.
Until they prohibit the adorable doggy of a PTSD suffering Iraq war vet.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:11 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Until they prohibit the adorable doggy of a PTSD suffering Iraq war vet.
In which case the vet. will have accreditation to that effect? Hell, I could claim disability in order to get assisted boarding on flights, except that I can't back up my claim.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:57 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The big question is who will issue IDs. This is not a simple problem, and I have some ideas I'd like to discuss with you, see what you think. But your talk of "stoning" is kind of throwing me off. Can we have a reasonable discussion?
What about that the service dog has been trained by a member of the International Guide Dog Federation? Like any professional group, guide dog trainers have since long also set up their professional association. The "bar" is also a private organization that the government defers to to determine who is a lawyer and who not.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course you wouldn't be the one paying, it would be the blind guy paying more for his seeing eye dog, raising the cost from the existing $50,000 to say $75,000.

https://www.guidingeyes.org/learn/faqs/

So this raised cost means fewer people who need them get service animals.
Really?

A bit of paperwork or a credit-card sized ID that says that your dog has been trained by a bona fide organization adds maybe $100 to the price, which is a pittance compared to the costs of the actual training you cite. And I'd think that those bona fide trainers would welcome that, actually, to rat out the fakers.
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Old 24th January 2018, 06:08 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, you can pay an unscrupulous doctor to give you a letter to get a certificate.
Hell, you can even go to an online website, fill out a questionnaire and get your certificate. As this New Yorker journalist did. At the very least, the certificate should also include the bill of the therapist to show that you actually went through a lot of sessions to determine that you "need" your ESA. And even then, the scientific evidence of the value of ESAs is questionable, see this WaPo article.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You can buy harnesses, etc. it would be harder to print a legitimate “Doggy is trained” certificate, especially if there are only a few certifying organizations. Even so, how many people are going to go through all of that just to bring their pet along?
As long as it's going to a website to get a "certificate" for your ESA and buying a fake harness on Amazon, the investment is so low that it pays itself back with just a few flights. Yes, there needs to be legitimate, clear certification of service animals; and as well as of ESAs, as long as this is a thing.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Then there is the matter of legitimacy. The ADA does not require ESAs to be allowed. So far, this has been an accommodation allowed on a purely voluntary basis by public facilities.
The Housing Act requires landlords to allow ESAs as well even when there's a "no pets" policy. And the Aviation Carrier Act requires airlines to accommodate them. Other facilities - schools, colleges, restaurants, shops, etc. - don't have to put up with them.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
An incident like this raises awareness in the public that perhaps ESAs are not really a thing. That viral video has a good chance of going the other way: “look at this idiot trying to pass off their pet as service animal! How dare they exploit the legitimate needs of the blind!”

In such an environment the PR hit may be very small and the airlines willing to ban ESAs may be hailed as doing the right thing.
I'm totally with you there, but I don't think that reaction is universal.
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Old 24th January 2018, 06:22 AM   #146
ddt
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not really the stock holders didn't care as those draging off a flight videos didn't hurt the airlines.
The American airlines have each carved out a de-facto monopoly on a part of the USA. You can't say "I won't fly United, I'll take Delta" because on most routes, there is only one carrier.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What are people now going to take the train?
Or Mr. Garrison's monowheel.

But really, if you're such a snowflake that you can't travel for a few hours without your pet hedgehog, take your own goddamn car.

FWIW, I read somewhere a comment from someone claiming to be a passenger a few rows up from the incident in the OP. He said the marine had PTSD and had trouble in crowds. Why the hell then do you want to fly? If there's one place that's packed it's an airplane. And somehow it makes that problem better by making it even more crowded by having your 50 pounds mauling and killing machine on your lap?
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Last edited by ddt; 24th January 2018 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:53 AM   #147
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When you lose Cracked.com you are really bad off.

http://www.cracked.com/personal-expe...rvice-dog.html

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Old 24th January 2018, 10:02 AM   #148
Cain
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
In which case the vet. will have accreditation to that effect? Hell, I could claim disability in order to get assisted boarding on flights, except that I can't back up my claim.
What counts as accreditation though? I've had two war vets say they exaggerate (or "play up") the effects of the war in order to claim disability benefits because "hey, everyone else is doing it." There was a guy in Florida who got a doctor's note (via the Internet, I believe) saying his goddamn squirrel provided emotional therapy (so the housing association should not be allowed to kick him out). In the Cracked article linked above, "Ashley" got a doctor's note.

In the case of my student, I think she probably did have a legitimate anxiety issue, but I also strongly suspect her dog was a home remedy. She was entitled to special testing accommodations, but she was NOT entitled to bring in a family pet. Of course these "service dog" exceptions are going to be abused the same way everyone here in California used marijuana for "medicinal" purposes.
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Old 24th January 2018, 10:12 AM   #149
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This whole "dog bites man" is not news. Since it is news, are we sure the man did not bite the dog?
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Old 24th January 2018, 10:46 AM   #150
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I have an emotional support elephant. I need him with me in the grocery store and at restaurants to help me with my PTSD. He's not too well housebroken. Sorry about that mess. Oh no, my PTSD would be aggravated by cleaning it up.
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Old 24th January 2018, 10:47 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What counts as accreditation though? I've had two war vets say they exaggerate (or "play up") the effects of the war in order to claim disability benefits because "hey, everyone else is doing it."
I was assuming that a war vet with PTSD would carry recognisable accreditation as such through an official channel. The armed forces, for example? Maybe not.
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Old 24th January 2018, 10:52 AM   #152
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I have an emotional support elephant.
Delta says they are no longer allowing animals with tusks on their planes. Run that elephant past an ivory poacher and you will be good to go.
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Old 24th January 2018, 12:48 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I have an emotional support elephant. I need him with me in the grocery store and at restaurants to help me with my PTSD. He's not too well housebroken. Sorry about that mess. Oh no, my PTSD would be aggravated by cleaning it up.
Most people are hesitant to mention the elephant in the room.
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Old 24th January 2018, 01:15 PM   #154
theprestige
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
This whole "dog bites man" is not news. Since it is news, are we sure the man did not bite the dog?
Well, "dog chews face off of man trapped in a commercial airliner in flight, because the dog's owner is a douchebag and the airline is too afraid of PC backlash to take basic precautions against locking people into airplanes with vicious animals and then taking off," seems pretty newsworthy.
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Old 24th January 2018, 04:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Delta says they are no longer allowing animals with tusks on their planes. Run that elephant past an ivory poacher and you will be good to go.
I can have him detusked, so he can sit in my lap while I fly.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:30 PM   #156
Steve
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I can have him detusked, so he can sit in my lap while I fly.
Or you could sit in his lap. That would be more comfortable for you. Elephants are soft.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:46 PM   #157
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In those jurisdictions which have yet to restrict "emotional support" animals to mammals, I suggest people should take emotional support boa constrictors with them. After a few examples of emotional support poodles and chihuahuas being eaten, perhaps those who are exploiting the ADA just to bring their pets with them will have second thoughts.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:54 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In those jurisdictions which have yet to restrict "emotional support" animals to mammals, I suggest people should take emotional support boa constrictors with them.
Boa constrictors give the best hugs!
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Old 24th January 2018, 06:01 PM   #159
Giordano
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Boa constrictors give the best hugs!
I took care of a ~ 4 foot rat snake once. The muscle strength of a snake even that size (and perhaps 2 cm in diameter at max) was very impressive!
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:47 PM   #160
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A couple friends of mine raise puppies for Canine Companions for Independence. They do the initial training for the dogs which may later be trained to me assistance animals, hearing dogs or the like.. Not emotional support animals. They do see the issue, and the problem behind the false certificates. It hurts genuine dogs, and the people that need them. However, how do you determine what is legit, and what is.. a fake cape and note?
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