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Tags acupuncture , alternative medicine , veterinary acupuncture

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Old 24th January 2018, 12:44 PM   #1
Tricky
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Would you have a vet that advertises acupuncture?

I just moved to a new town and I was looking for a veteranarian. I did a "Yelp" search and some other background work and found one nearby that had good reviews, so I called.

First thing they did was put me on a lengthy hold, which is a big red flag to me in the first place, but in their "on hold" message, they proudly touted that they will do acupuncture on your pet. Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
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Old 24th January 2018, 12:57 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I just moved to a new town and I was looking for a veteranarian. I did a "Yelp" search and some other background work and found one nearby that had good reviews, so I called.

First thing they did was put me on a lengthy hold, which is a big red flag to me in the first place, but in their "on hold" message, they proudly touted that they will do acupuncture on your pet. Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
I had a vet who I really liked. Unfortunately she sold her practice. When I took my dog to the new vet I was given a quote that included both acupuncture and, I **** you not, aromatherapy. I left, never to return.
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Old 24th January 2018, 01:11 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I just moved to a new town and I was looking for a veteranarian. I did a "Yelp" search and some other background work and found one nearby that had good reviews, so I called.

First thing they did was put me on a lengthy hold, which is a big red flag to me in the first place, but in their "on hold" message, they proudly touted that they will do acupuncture on your pet. Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
I wouldn't subject my pets to unproven treatments, but that may not be enough to exclude a vet from consideration.

My vet does offer acupuncture, but when I told her I thought it was ********, she absorbed that and we've never had it mentioned again. I think she agreed, actually.

But she does have it as a service for customers who are into that, and I'd have to know more about what conditions it's intended to treat before I worry too much about her competence.

She's otherwise a pretty good vet. We had a cat make it to 22 years with her, and he was walking around in the yard hunting bugs literally an hour before he died.
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Old 24th January 2018, 01:13 PM   #4
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The hip new vet in town offers accupunture. No way in hell I'm taking pets there.

Not that I would have unless I had no other choice, but thats a bit of a red flag of quackery and, frankly, someone desperate to milk as much money out of people as possible. My vet is where I live in the country and is a proper country vet. Once he knows you and your pets, he'll suggest you *not* bring the pets by for regular inoculations. Instead, stop by without the pets and he gives you the pre-loaded syringes and instructions and charges 1/2 the usual fee. It might be illegal, but its convenient!

But, just for giggles I googled pet acupuncture. This was among the first links:
Quote:
Should you pursue acupuncture for your pet? This is a prickly question that should be answered by a veterinarian having been trained in traditional Chinese veterinary medicine (TCVM)
Really? Isn't that like suggesting you ask a used car salesman if you should buy a car from his lot? Thats really, depressingly credulous.
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Old 24th January 2018, 01:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I wouldn't subject my pets to unproven treatments, but that may not be enough to exclude a vet from consideration.

My vet does offer acupuncture, but when I told her I thought it was ********, she absorbed that and we've never had it mentioned again. I think she agreed, actually.

But she does have it as a service for customers who are into that, and I'd have to know more about what conditions it's intended to treat before I worry too much about her competence.

She's otherwise a pretty good vet. We had a cat make it to 22 years with her, and he was walking around in the yard hunting bugs literally an hour before he died.
I agree, I wouldn't leave a vet for doing what the owner asked for (or referring it) but when a place is advertising it in their "hold" spiel, I consider that to be pushing acupuncture, and it makes me worry about what other alternative medicines they might recommend.
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Old 24th January 2018, 01:58 PM   #6
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Yeah, all else being equal I would drive a few minutes extra to a vet that wasn't selling BS to their patients. I like my vet, but I've had a few I didn't.
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Old 24th January 2018, 03:42 PM   #7
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My daughter, who was trying to get her volunteer experience in for vet school, quit working for one vet because he not only used acupuncture, but homeopathy in his practice. She was so disgusted she nearly dropped her whole veterinary plan, but after some time of school she's now back on track and with any luck will be starting vet school in the fall (she's already done all the undergrad and gotten a masters in animal behaviour).
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Old 24th January 2018, 04:16 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I agree, I wouldn't leave a vet for doing what the owner asked for (or referring it) but when a place is advertising it in their "hold" spiel, I consider that to be pushing acupuncture, and it makes me worry about what other alternative medicines they might recommend.
Perhaps veterinary voodoo?
http://www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/
As you see there are a lot of arguments in favour of it.
(old link from Rolfe.)

Kind of surprised that acupuncture for animals is a thing, but then again, have seen that not getting vaccinations have reached pets.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I agree, I wouldn't leave a vet for doing what the owner asked for (or referring it) but when a place is advertising it in their "hold" spiel, I consider that to be pushing acupuncture, and it makes me worry about what other alternative medicines they might recommend.
I'd worry about it, but maybe a conversation would clear up their actual policy, before I completely wrote them off my list.

My source for cats is the North Shore Animal Shelter - run by the District of north Vancouver, rather than the SPCA. They have an odd rider in their adoption form that says I promise to feed the cats only organic food. I asked the woman at the desk about this one time, and she rolled her eyes and said, "Yah, just ignore that. Just promise to love her, and it's all good."

Which was enough for me to continue to go there each time a cat slot opens up at the blutoski household.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:59 PM   #10
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In Russia cats perform acupuncture on you!

Actually that happens everywhere.
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Old 24th January 2018, 07:09 PM   #11
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It could be worse.

I know of a local chiropractor that treated pets.
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I had a vet who I really liked. Unfortunately she sold her practice. When I took my dog to the new vet I was given a quote that included both acupuncture and, I **** you not, aromatherapy. I left, never to return.
Oh, come on! Dogs manage their own aromatherapy!!
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:09 PM   #13
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https://www.amazon.com/Four-Paws-Fiv.../dp/0890877904

I have no comment.
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Old 24th January 2018, 08:56 PM   #14
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I get it; it's a way to generate revenue which I'm sure is not easy to come by for a lot of vets. People are asking for it, I'm sure, so they feel they have to offer it or lose business to the vet who does offer it. Same thing happens with people doctors.

But when any medical professional endorses an unproven modality it serves to legitimize that unproven modality. My own feeling is that a doctor who endorses things like homeopathy, aromatherapy and other nonsense is a doctor that I can't trust their judgement. I can't start a professional relationship with someone I don't trust.

Unfortunately, this kind of thing is becoming more and more widespread.
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Old 25th January 2018, 02:11 AM   #15
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I don't think the catbeasts' vet offers complimentary therapies but I haven't done an exhaustive search because I like them and I'd feel pressure to change vets if they did

https://www.marlowvets.co.uk/
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Old 25th January 2018, 03:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It could be worse.

I know of a local chiropractor that treated pets.
Sounds like a recipe for a lot of well deserved scratches and bites...
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Old 25th January 2018, 03:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't think the catbeasts' vet offers complimentary therapies but I haven't done an exhaustive search because I like them and I'd feel pressure to change vets if they did

https://www.marlowvets.co.uk/
I'm pretty sure mine doesn't either -: http://www.sprinzandnash.org.uk

My experience with them for dogs and small animals has been really good so I've happily recommended them to people, I'd be very reluctant to do so with anywhere that shoveled woo.
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Old 25th January 2018, 06:12 AM   #18
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Ridiculous. I wouldn't go.
I've noticed a few younger vet practices offering these non-conventional services. I assume appeals to a certain younger clientele.
Aroma therapy, massage, pet spa services, plush waiting areas and fancy client services etc. I prefer my vet to spend his money on animal care, experienced staff and medical equipment.

So how the hell would you get your dog to sit still at the vet clinic long enough to do acupuncture? Don't the needles have to stay in place for a while?
My mutts would have scratched, pulled and licked every needle out in no time.
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Old 25th January 2018, 07:07 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
So how the hell would you get your dog to sit still at the vet clinic long enough to do acupuncture? Don't the needles have to stay in place for a while?
It doesn't matter how long they stay in. The net effect is the same.
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Old 25th January 2018, 08:51 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
It doesn't matter how long they stay in. The net effect is the same.
Indeed.

plus, my dogs don't like the smell of patchouli or the sound of whale songs.
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Old 25th January 2018, 09:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I just moved to a new town and I was looking for a veteranarian. I did a "Yelp" search and some other background work and found one nearby that had good reviews, so I called.

First thing they did was put me on a lengthy hold, which is a big red flag to me in the first place, but in their "on hold" message, they proudly touted that they will do acupuncture on your pet. Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
I decided not to use a conveniently located vet because they advertise homeopathic treatment.
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Old 25th January 2018, 10:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
plus, my dogs don't like the smell of patchouli or the sound of whale songs.
So based on your location, I have to assume they are more of personal defense dogs than pets?
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Old 25th January 2018, 12:10 PM   #23
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Our vet does offer acupuncture. She is also excellent at conventional veterinary medicine. She has been our vet for 30+ years. She started offering the acupuncture some years after we started seeing her. If she had offered it from day one we may never have started with her. As it is we are not about to switch from a good vet just because she offers a "service" we do not use.
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Old 25th January 2018, 01:04 PM   #24
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NO.

I would be afraid we eventually would have to dance around the pet to make him feel better
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Old 25th January 2018, 03:11 PM   #25
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Acupuncture and fish skin is being used by vets to rehabilitate bears burned in California wildfires.

Quote:
The bears had suffered third-degree burns on all their paws, said Jamie Peyton, chief of the Integrative Medicine Service at the university's vet school. The cub also burned all four paws...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...stic-pain.html
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:25 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
Howdy, stranger. Nice to see you.

I'm very much in the same camp, and cannot abide by human woo being forced on animals who have no say. We are greatly pleased (and fortunate) to have a science-based, feline-specific practice which does not delve into the alt. Much like yourself, I'd go out of my way to avoid any such facility (as you described, anyway).

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Old 26th January 2018, 05:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So based on your location, I have to assume they are more of personal defense dogs than pets?

Although lately, they've been more focused on alerting me to the presence of fixed-gear bicycles and a smug sense of irony.
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Old 26th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I just moved to a new town and I was looking for a veteranarian. I did a "Yelp" search and some other background work and found one nearby that had good reviews, so I called.

First thing they did was put me on a lengthy hold, which is a big red flag to me in the first place, but in their "on hold" message, they proudly touted that they will do acupuncture on your pet. Normally, I don't have any problem with people who want to have acupuncture done on themselves, but I am strongly against having it done on children below the age of consent and of course, animals who cannot sign consent form to have quacks perform alternative medicine on them. So I hung up and immediately scheduled them with a similarly rated vet a bit further away. I consider it worth another five minute drive

Anyone else have any feeling on whether you should subject pets to unproven treatments?
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:18 AM   #29
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I have taken my cats to a vet who does acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. My regular vet recommended her when the Western medicine didn't seem to be working very well. The cats did very well on the Chinese medicine. I'm not sure about the acupuncture part of it; I suspect it was just the Chinese medicine that helped them, but don't know since they had both.
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Old 30th January 2018, 05:33 PM   #30
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I have used the same vet for 25 years, and after the first visit I was aware he was The One. He told me that there were a few vets around using acupuncture, so he found one who allowed him to research his findings. Not only was the vet advertising the treatment as miraculous, my vet found no difference in the animal, and at times the animals conditions became worse.
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Old 30th January 2018, 09:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
trained in traditional Chinese veterinary medicine (TCVM)
lol okay
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Old 31st January 2018, 04:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by crackers View Post
I have taken my cats to a vet who does acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. My regular vet recommended her when the Western medicine didn't seem to be working very well. The cats did very well on the Chinese medicine. I'm not sure about the acupuncture part of it; I suspect it was just the Chinese medicine that helped them, but don't know since they had both.
My boss says the crystals he puts on his back alleviate his back pain. I suggested it might be the 1/2 hour of stretching he also says he does every morning. I wonder which it is? I wonder what would happen if he stopped stretching?

ETA: I would not use a vet that did that. Hell no - someone that puts acupuncture needles into animals? Who knows what other weird stuff they may do that they think is best for your animal, possibly without telling you. "Oh I slipped Jane's dog some garlic tabs in case the flea medication doesn't work. Hope they don't kill her beloved pet"
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Old 1st February 2018, 07:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My boss says the crystals he puts on his back alleviate his back pain. I suggested it might be the 1/2 hour of stretching he also says he does every morning. I wonder which it is? I wonder what would happen if he stopped stretching?

ETA: I would not use a vet that did that. Hell no - someone that puts acupuncture needles into animals? Who knows what other weird stuff they may do that they think is best for your animal, possibly without telling you. "Oh I slipped Jane's dog some garlic tabs in case the flea medication doesn't work. Hope they don't kill her beloved pet"
I would be absolutely livid:
Quote:
Unfortunately, dogs and cats cannot digest these particular plants as we can. The ingestion of Allium species in dogs and cats causes a condition called hemolytic anemia, which is characterized by the bursting of red blood cells circulating through your pet’s body.
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:57 AM   #34
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Placebo effect has been observed in animals? Then I might do it for pain treatment.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Placebo effect has been observed in animals? Then I might do it for pain treatment.
"placebo effect" is a phrase that has at least two contradictory meanings, so it's a bit vague, but I think the best way to put it is that a placebo expectation effect is observed in animal owners.

The animals themselves probably receive a negative benefit.
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Old 11th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
"placebo effect" is a phrase that has at least two contradictory meanings, so it's a bit vague, but I think the best way to put it is that a placebo expectation effect is observed in animal owners.

The animals themselves probably receive a negative benefit.

Wouldn't 'Observer Bias' he more appropriate? It's an unblinded experiment where the results are based on the experimenter's usually subjective judgement.
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:12 PM   #37
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Personally, I wouldn't give my business to any business that peddles woo. Which can be a bit of a hassle sometimes - I get back and neck problems occasionally, that a good massage can take care of. The nearest massage service to where I live also offers acupuncture, so while the location is convenient, I'm not going there.
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Old 13th February 2018, 12:43 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Wouldn't 'Observer Bias' he more appropriate? It's an unblinded experiment where the results are based on the experimenter's usually subjective judgement.
The overall model is that placebo expectation effect is an observation failure, yes.
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Last edited by blutoski; 13th February 2018 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Would you have a vet that advertises acupuncture?
No.
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Old 14th February 2018, 03:07 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I would be absolutely livid:
Yep, yet my friend was given garlic tabs for fleas. Not by a vet though (I think), and my friend came to her senses thank goodness. Hopefully no vet would ever do that.

I remember she was told "Do you know how many dogs die each year from normal flea treatments?" (ooooh big pharma!!!)

No but I'll bet the percentage of death is a lot lower than the garlic popping dogs, you stupid moron.

Now if I could get her to stop trusting her chiropractic friend who tries every bullcrap remedy under the sun I'd feel better about it. At least the dog is okay.
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