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Old 8th March 2018, 07:39 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
It's not terribly difficult to raise the eyebrows on a conspiracy theorist. Much harder to raise their level of education.

There's basically no chance this was a UK plot. Whatever nerve agent was used it wasn't something that was eaten/drank. It was inhaled or injected.
Why? a lot of them are contact poisons like VX.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:44 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? a lot of them are contact poisons like VX.
Could have been. Local gossip says airbourne. The only people that actually know atm are staying very tight lipped.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:51 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Could have been. Local gossip says airbourne. The only people that actually know atm are staying very tight lipped.
From the reports of those who came in contact with the ambulance being contaminated later I would bet contact agent that persistence is what makes them so effective.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
On teh other hand, when British media say that, it's usually because that's what the police have told them.

Two countries separated by a common language....
Whereas the Russian media: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498
... joke in a not-at-all-sinister way about how unhealthy it is to be a traitor, especially if you go to live in the UK where mysterious accidents seem to befall you. Or complain that it's mere hysteria to imagine that out-of-favour Russians in Britain being poisoned by extremely exotic substances might not be mere coincidence or might have any link back to Russia. There are probably any number of innocent explanations for Russians overseas being poisoned by rare radionuclides and nerve toxins. It's just the Russian equivalent of a Spinal Tap drummer's bizarre gardening accident.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BBC News
A witness, who saw the pair at the restaurant, told the BBC Mr Skripal was acting "very strange" and was "very agitated".

"He seemed to lose his temper... and he just started screaming at the top of his voice, he wanted his bill and he wanted to go."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43326734
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Whereas the Russian media: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498
... joke in a not-at-all-sinister way about how unhealthy it is to be a traitor, especially if you go to live in the UK where mysterious accidents seem to befall you. Or complain that it's mere hysteria to imagine that out-of-favour Russians in Britain being poisoned by extremely exotic substances might not be mere coincidence or might have any link back to Russia. There are probably any number of innocent explanations for Russians overseas being poisoned by rare radionuclides and nerve toxins. It's just the Russian equivalent of a Spinal Tap drummer's bizarre gardening accident.
This! Russia is the real victim here by being slandered by western degenerate lying homosexualist liberal subhuman scum called journalists (probably paid by the dirty jew George Soros), not the traitorous dog.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:11 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just so. And on International Women's Day too. <hangs head in shame> To save you Googling it too, female officers comprise 28.2% of the force in England and Wales.
I just looked at the papers in our break room, and both the Times and the Telegraph used 'Policeman' in their headlines for the story (though not in the body of the reports).

ETA: Something about the way the reports I heard were being worded caught my attention; I wonder if they'd have been so careful if it had been a man.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I just looked at the papers in our break room, and both the Times and the Telegraph used 'Policeman' in their headlines for the story (though not in the body of the reports).

ETA: Something about the way the reports I heard were being worded caught my attention; I wonder if they'd have been so careful if it had been a man.
I don't know why the radio news reports I heard kept the story gender neutral but had begun to suppose it was because it might have uniquely identified the officer concerned to her local area. Maybe it was the police who requested that. The headlines would presumably be written by a sub-editor who didn't know more than the written article they were presented with and also assumed a male officer.
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:37 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I don't know why the radio news reports I heard kept the story gender neutral but had begun to suppose it was because it might have uniquely identified the officer concerned to her local area. Maybe it was the police who requested that. The headlines would presumably be written by a sub-editor who didn't know more than the written article they were presented with and also assumed a male officer.
Hmm, Ambrosia needs to check their sources. I just heard on the BBC that it is a policeman, Nick Bailey.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ripal-improves
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:48 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Hmm, Ambrosia needs to check their sources. I just heard on the BBC that it is a policeman, Nick Bailey.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ripal-improves
I heard that too. Wondered if Nick was short for Nichola but a quick Google finds DS Nick Bailey looks distinctly male.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:08 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Could have been. Local gossip says airbourne. The only people that actually know atm are staying very tight lipped.
The pattern of others affected suggests contact, not ingestion. As for airborne, unless it was an agent on clothing which let off fumes that were inhaled, the pattern doesn't quite fit but is possible.

An officer might take a pulse. They might try to position a head so as to open an airway. They might reach in a pocket for an ID.

It's possible that with those or similar actions a vaporized substance on clothing, or a substance on the victims' hands fits the scenario.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:14 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
It's not everyday that the place you live in ends up as front page news!



She's a close friend of my best mate. Apparently he threw up over her shortly after she arrived on scene. As far as I know she's serious but stable and is likely to be OK.
It's a male officer a sergeant that's in a serious condition.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:43 PM   #93
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b, as usually way ahead of the "news", has some interesting thoughts on the affair, including some based on a Telegraph article which make it seem as if the victim was close to the gang around Christopher Steele who made up the "Piss dossier", and might have tried to profit from his insider knowledge.

Assuming that this was a hit job at all, which is less silly than blaming Putin, but still speculation.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:23 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
b, as usually way ahead of the "news", has some interesting thoughts on the affair, including some based on a Telegraph article which make it seem as if the victim was close to the gang around Christopher Steele who made up the "Piss dossier", and might have tried to profit from his insider knowledge.

Assuming that this was a hit job at all, which is less silly than blaming Putin, but still speculation.
Not especially ahead of the news as quite a bit of that has been overtaken already by other revelations. The authorities haven't named the agent used but they ruled out sarin and VX. Fentanyl wouldn't also have harmed the policeman who first tried to help the pair.

It is a fair point that the motive for attacking him is hardly likely to be his original spying. And whoever was pissed off with him used what is suggested to be a very exotic toxin. That article tries to join the dots to the Clinton campaign trying to hush him up rather than someone in Russia wanting to stop whatever he was currently up to or punish whatever he recently did. It doesn't seem very persuasive to me that whatever work Skripal might have done for Orbis could directly embarrass anyone high enough up the chain toward the Clinton campaign as to reach anyone with access to nerve agents, and if such a person wanted to hush things up, they wouldn't have chosen such a dramatic method of assassination. (That would just cause others involved to seek ways to protect themselves, either by spilling the beans immediately or preparing confessions to be revealed in event of their death.) This looks like someone sending a warning that if anyone crosses whichever line was crossed, they will come after you with no fear of investigators coming after them.

The report that Skripal lost his temper in the restaurant just before they left suggests to me the daughter told him something he really didn't want to hear. If either recovers we might learn what that was. I gather the great risk now is that the nerve agent may have suppressed their breathing long enough to cause serious brain damage so I don't know what their prospects are of recovering.

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Old 9th March 2018, 04:36 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's a male officer a sergeant that's in a serious condition.
Yeah. I was mistaken. My bad.

The woman police officer who was the first on the scene did get thrown up on and was taken to hospital, but wasn't seriously affected and was later released.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:58 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Fentanyl wouldn't also have harmed the policeman who first tried to help the pair.

From the comments to the linked article:

Quote:
Fentanyl can enter the body through the skin:
A police officer in East Liverpool, Ohio, collapsed and was rushed to the hospital after he brushed fentanyl residue off his uniform, allowing the drug to enter his system through his hands. The officer had apparently encountered the opioid earlier in the day while making a drug bust.
Fenatanyl acts on the nervous system so could be described as a "nerve agent", particularly by a British politician or civil servant.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Mar 8, 2018 8:16:50 PM | 26
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:29 AM   #97
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Focusing on the house as the location of poisoning, and that Officer Bailey was poisoned when he was a first responder entering the house...

Originally Posted by DailyMail
Sergei Skripal, 66, his daughter Yulia, 33, and Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, a 38-year-old married father-of-two, are all in hospital after coming into contact what has been called a 'very rare' nerve agent. Mr Skripal and his daughter are in a 'very serious' condition, the Home Secretary said this morning.

Police have not confirmed where they were poisoned or how, but detectives are said to be working on the theory all three came in to contact with the nerve agent at Mr Skipal's suburban home.

A source close to the investigation told MailOnline: 'Officers now believe Nick Bailey was one of the first to visit Mr Skripal's home and enter the premises after the poisoning incident on Sunday. He became ill at some point afterwards and took himself to hospital.'...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ison-plot.html

Does anyone here have any reports saying that Bailey attended to the victims at the bench? Or, was his involvement strictly limited to going into the house?
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:42 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
From the comments to the linked article:
Okay, I take that back. If the their clothes had somehow been contaminated with fentanyl powder, that might indeed have harmed a would-be rescuer. I guess we'll have to wait and see after all.

Though looking at the scale and expertise of the deployment for investigation and decontamination, I'm still not putting any money on fentanyl being the substance used. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43344725
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:48 AM   #99
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Why are we discussing fentanyl when the police have already confirmed that the poison is a very rare nerve agent? Fentanyl would not be described as very rare or as a nerve agent.
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:51 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Okay, I take that back. If the their clothes had somehow been contaminated with fentanyl powder, that might indeed have harmed a would-be rescuer. I guess we'll have to wait and see after all.

Though looking at the scale and expertise of the deployment for investigation and decontamination, I'm still not putting any money on fentanyl being the substance used. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43344725
I am not sure fentanyl would count as a rare nerve agent that was being stated before. Though likely effective especially mixed with say DMSO.
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:51 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Focusing on the house as the location of poisoning, and that Officer Bailey was poisoned when he was a first responder entering the house...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ison-plot.html

Does anyone here have any reports saying that Bailey attended to the victims at the bench? Or, was his involvement strictly limited to going into the house?
Now that's curious. It makes more sense that a detective sergeant would be sent to check the home of someone in this situation rather than be called to assist people collapsed in the street, but it makes for an interesting timeline. It implies the pair might have been poisoned before they left home, but when both seem to have collapsed at about the same time, a slow-acting toxin seems unlikely.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:00 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Why are we discussing fentanyl when the police have already confirmed that the poison is a very rare nerve agent? Fentanyl would not be described as very rare or as a nerve agent.
Indeed. The article CE linked to mentioned it, but it's hard to take the suggestion seriously. It looks to me like a rather desperate attempt to plant the idea the pair might have been poisoned by a substance they got hold of by themselves. It doesn't fit the bill as a rare nerve agent. You wouldn't call it rare compared to sarin or VX.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:01 AM   #103
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The very strange behavior and loud yelling at the restaurant may have been some of the first symptoms of a poisoning that happened back at the house.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:08 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The very strange behavior and loud yelling at the restaurant may have been some of the first symptoms of a poisoning that happened back at the house.
Feasibly, yes, though if he realised he'd been poisoned I imagine he'd have called for help.

It seems less likely they could each have been dosed with just the right amount of a slow-acting toxin to visit a pub, and then a restaurant and then both collapse at about the same time.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:26 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Indeed. The article CE linked to mentioned it, but it's hard to take the suggestion seriously.

Actually the article brings it up because CNN reported that "Local media had on Monday reported the substance found at the scene to be similar to fentanyl: a lethally strong opioid available even on Salisbury's soporific streets", as quoted and sourced there.

edit: Meanwhile the article was updated to include this quote from The Independent (website seems to be unavailable atm) which states:

Originally Posted by The Independent
Sources close to Orbis, the business intelligence firm run by former MI6 agent Christopher Steele, who was behind a dossier of compromising allegations against Donald Trump, said Mr Skripal did not contribute to the file. But they could not say whether Mr Skripal was involved in different investigations into the US President for other interested parties.

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Old 9th March 2018, 07:46 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Feasibly, yes, though if he realised he'd been poisoned I imagine he'd have called for help.
Why or how would he realize or even imagine that he had been poisoned if it occurred by way of covert agency?

There is the possibility that he was poisoned at the house and then symptoms began to develop while he is eating at the restaurant. He imagines that these symptoms are actually being caused by the food he is eating and so he becomes aggressively belligerent and loud and demands the check right away. This nerve agent could initially cause psychological and physical symptoms. The advancing effects of the poison may have compelled him to believe that he had just eaten the worst food he had ever eaten in his life.

Quote:
It seems less likely they could each have been dosed with just the right amount of a slow-acting toxin to visit a pub, and then a restaurant and then both collapse at about the same time.
I know. It's not easy to imagine the "slowness" of a nerve agent poison. But this is said to be a very rare one and maybe it doesn't work quite like the "common" known ones such as VX or Sarin.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:48 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Actually the article brings it up because CNN reported that "Local media had on Monday reported the substance found at the scene to be similar to fentanyl: a lethally strong opioid available even on Salisbury's soporific streets", as quoted and sourced there.
Indeed. But before that article was published it had already been announced that the toxin used was a rare nerve agent. So it appeared to me that its referring back to that early speculation about opioids was an effort to keep alive the notion that the pair might have poisoned themselves with street drugs obtained locally, after that had realistically been ruled out.

Do you think it likely?
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:53 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Indeed. But before that article was published it had already been announced that the toxin used was a rare nerve agent. So it appeared to me that its referring back to that early speculation about opioids was an effort to keep alive the notion that the pair might have poisoned themselves with street drugs obtained locally, after that had realistically been ruled out.

Apparently you didn't read the article to the end.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Do you think it likely?

I have no opinion on that one way or the other.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:06 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Actually the article brings it up because CNN reported that "Local media had on Monday reported the substance found at the scene to be similar to fentanyl: a lethally strong opioid available even on Salisbury's soporific streets", as quoted and sourced there.
I doubt dealers would be "on the street" in broad daylight.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:13 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Indeed. But before that article was published it had already been announced that the toxin used was a rare nerve agent. So it appeared to me that its referring back to that early speculation about opioids was an effort to keep alive the notion that the pair might have poisoned themselves with street drugs obtained locally, after that had realistically been ruled out.

Do you think it likely?
Given the source probably, anything to avoid blaming the Russians.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:19 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I doubt dealers would be "on the street" in broad daylight.

I have no idea how "soporific" Salisbury's streets are and know nothing about this drug, but I suspect you don't have to take it immediatly after buying.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Given the source probably, anything to avoid blaming the Russians.

Avoid blaming the Russians for anything should be declared treason by the "Queen".
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:26 AM   #113
William Parcher
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The police certainly aren't behaving as if this is an accidental overdose of a recreational opioid. No, not acting or talking like that at all.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:48 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Actually the article brings it up because CNN reported that "Local media had on Monday reported the substance found at the scene to be similar to fentanyl: a lethally strong opioid available even on Salisbury's soporific streets", as quoted and sourced there.
CNN wins the award for worst use of cliched alliteration in a space filling article.

You can get pretty much any drugs you like here. Same as any other city in the UK. If that's what local media are reporting then they are as guilty of making **** up as CNN are.

It wasn't Fentanyl, it's been identified and it's a rare nerve agent. they have drafted in more military people trained in decontamination who are walking around in full on Biohazard regalia. They're not going to do that for a bog standard opiod.

The pair were poisoned in their home with whatever it was, presumably the plan was for them to take ill quickly and die at home.

Were it not for the fact that Porton Down is very close by so that whatever the poison was could be identified quickly then they would be dead already.

Had they not gone out for the evening they'd be dead now and might not yet have been discovered.

The police officer who was seriously ill was taken ill after attending the house, and because the woman police officer who first attended them was vomited on and was not taken seriously ill then we can surmise that it wasn't something that was ingested and that they were poisoned while at home.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:38 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Avoid blaming the Russians for anything should be declared treason by the "Queen".
It's not up to the monarch to decide what is treason or not.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 9th March 2018 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:07 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't deny that it is possible, but as others have said it is strange timing just months before Putin wants to be clear of legal tangles with regard to the football World Cup in Russia. An explanation 'could be' that Turkey or Ukraine were behind it, with red flag plausible deniability, in order to discredit Russia for their military success in Syria against the Syrian opposition. As usual, like Russiagate and chemical warfare in Syria and Iraq, there are a lot of opinions, and little evidence or facts.
Do keep in mind in 1999, Prime Minister Putin attended an APEC Summit in New Zealand, when the second bombing was happening in Moscow.


I don't think I have to say much more about that. Putin doesn't have to behave a certain way for anything as long as he can keep the most henious things under wraps.

Last edited by Venom; 9th March 2018 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:44 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I doubt dealers would be "on the street" in broad daylight.
3am is their Favorited time isn't it?
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:56 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
If that's what local media are reporting then they are as guilty of making **** up as CNN are.

Well, are they/did they? If so, based on what? I'm not a local. You are.
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:34 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not especially ahead of the news as quite a bit of that has been overtaken already by other revelations. The authorities haven't named the agent used but they ruled out sarin and VX. Fentanyl wouldn't also have harmed the policeman who first tried to help the pair.

It is a fair point that the motive for attacking him is hardly likely to be his original spying. And whoever was pissed off with him used what is suggested to be a very exotic toxin. That article tries to join the dots to the Clinton campaign trying to hush him up rather than someone in Russia wanting to stop whatever he was currently up to or punish whatever he recently did. It doesn't seem very persuasive to me that whatever work Skripal might have done for Orbis could directly embarrass anyone high enough up the chain toward the Clinton campaign as to reach anyone with access to nerve agents, and if such a person wanted to hush things up, they wouldn't have chosen such a dramatic method of assassination. (That would just cause others involved to seek ways to protect themselves, either by spilling the beans immediately or preparing confessions to be revealed in event of their death.) This looks like someone sending a warning that if anyone crosses whichever line was crossed, they will come after you with no fear of investigators coming after them.

The report that Skripal lost his temper in the restaurant just before they left suggests to me the daughter told him something he really didn't want to hear. If either recovers we might learn what that was. I gather the great risk now is that the nerve agent may have suppressed their breathing long enough to cause serious brain damage so I don't know what their prospects are of recovering
.
Could the behaviour have been a symptom of the poisoning?

As for the initial diagnosis of fentanyl poisoning, nerve agents would *not* be the first thought when an unknown couple are found as these two were.
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:42 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Could the behaviour have been a symptom of the poisoning?

As for the initial diagnosis of fentanyl poisoning, nerve agents would *not* be the first thought when an unknown couple are found as these two were.
Wait you mean exotic russian assassination plans are not the leading cause of public unconsciousness in the UK?
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