How can the universe have a purpose if there is no God?

Wonder234

Critical Thinker
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The thinking goes like this: To give something a purpose something has to have an intention for it. To have intention you have to have a mind. Therefore, if there were no minds there would be nothing to give the universe a purpose. Do you agree? Why or why not?
 
Well this is a stupid question for a thread. "How can X be the case if Y, given that X isn't the case?" Stroll on.
 
MikeG said:
Well this is a stupid question for a thread. "How can X be the case if Y, given that X isn't the case?" Stroll on.
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It's asking what other possible ways there could be a purpose.

Also, isn't it kind of careless to call a thread stupid?
 
Wonder234 said:
The thinking goes like this: To give something a purpose something has to have an intention for it. To have intention you have to have a mind. Therefore, if there were no minds there would be nothing to give the universe a purpose. Do you agree? Why or why not?
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Yes, the universe has no purpose. But then, neither does a rock, or a hairdryer. Only thinking beings have a purpose or give a purpose to stuff.
 
The Greater Fool said:
The universe doesn't need a purpose, it just needs a reason.
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I agree, from our point of view, it doesn't need a purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose although it may very well not have one. I just wanted to show that the universe couldn't have a purpose without an agent. If you think it can tell me why.
 
Wonder234 said:
The thinking goes like this: To give something a purpose something has to have an intention for it. To have intention you have to have a mind. Therefore, if there were no minds there would be nothing to give the universe a purpose. Do you agree? Why or why not?
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I suppose one could build a purpose around "advantageous genes being favored" . . . the universe does favor competency, don't know if that qualifies as a purpose.
 
Belz... said:
Yes, the universe has no purpose. But then, neither does a rock, or a hairdryer. Only thinking beings have a purpose or give a purpose to stuff.
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The reason I started this thread is that I got tired of seeing people say that the universe can have a purpose without an agent, and I was in the mood to debate.
 
LarryS said:
I suppose one could build a purpose around "advantageous genes being favored" . . . the universe does favor competency, don't know if that qualifies as a purpose.
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Another thing I've wondered is how could that be a purpose if there was no being to set it up with the intention of "advantageous genes being favored"?
 
Wonder234 said:
It's asking what other possible ways there could be a purpose.
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There self evidently isn't a purpose.

Also, isn't it kind of careless to call a thread stupid?
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No, it's a stupid question. A question which has to assume the truth of a nonsense to even begin the discussion. Stupid and ridiculous. And illogical.
 
Wonder234 said:
The reason I started this thread is that I got tired of seeing people say that the universe can have a purpose without an agent, and I was in the mood to debate.
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Oh really?

I have never seen anyone try to claim that the universe has a purpose but the universe does not have any sort of agent which created the universe.
 
Folks, this is the guy who argued forever about "opening his third eye":

Wonder234 said:
The scenario is this:

I do a practice that is intended to "open" my third eye. The practice is chanting the sound OM for 10 minutes a day, twice a day. I do the practice for a couple of weeks, and eventually something happens, you can call it my third eye opening just for the sake of argument. All of a sudden I see what looks like auras, see what looks like ghosts, and feel what seems to be other people's emotions. What would you, if you are a materialist, say about this as a materialist? And for the sake of the thread we'll just say a materialist is someone who believes that there are no supernatural entities.
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If you think that logic and critical thinking is going to help you in this discussion, I suggest you have a little read of this thread.
 
MikeG said:
There self evidently isn't a purpose.
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I'm curious as to how it not having a purpose is self-evident, if you mind, could you explain?

MikeG said:
No, it's a stupid question. A question which has to assume the truth of a nonsense to even begin the discussion. Stupid and ridiculous. And illogical.
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Yes, but isn't calling it stupid mean?
 
MikeG said:
Folks, this is the guy who argued forever about "opening his third eye"
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You say that kind of dismissively but instead of being the skeptic who automatically dismisses things isn't it a better position to instead withhold judgement until the evidence comes? Not disbelieving immediately, but neither believing nor disbelieving? Isn't that what skepticism really means?
 
Wonder234 said:
......Yes, but isn't calling it stupid mean?
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I'm not interested in "mean". I called it a stupid question because it is a stupid question. Your emotional response to that is unimportant, and doesn't change a stupid question into a not-stupid one.
 
Crossbow said:
Oh really?

I have never seen anyone try to claim that the universe has a purpose but the universe does not have any sort of agent which created the universe.
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I've seen them and was sure that it didn't make sense.
 
MikeG said:
I'm not interested in "mean". I called it a stupid question because it is a stupid question. Your emotional response to that is unimportant, and doesn't change a stupid question into a not-stupid one.
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OK
 
Wonder234 said:
You say that kind of dismissively but instead of being the skeptic who automatically dismisses things isn't it a better position to instead withhold judgement until the evidence comes?......
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The evidence is right there in the stupidity of the question in the title and OP.
 
Wonder234 said:
My goal is not to show that the universe has a purpose but to show that it couldn't have a purpose without an agent.
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I agree with this statement. I also don't think the universe has a purpose. There is no purpose except that of the creator. But without proof of a creator, the purpose of the universe is an oxymoron.
 
MikeG said:
The evidence is right there in the stupidity of the question in the title and OP.
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I'm not talking about whether it was stupid, I was talking about how it's preferable to withhold judgement rather than immediately dismissing something.
 
Wonder234 said:
I'm not talking about whether it was stupid, I was talking about how it's preferable to withhold judgement rather than immediately dismissing something.
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That depends.

If it's the same kind of something that's been asserted for literally hundreds of years before, and has come up with negative results every time it's researched, then ignoring it when it's brought up yet again with absolutely zero evidence to suggest anything different than the hundreds or thousands of times before is NOT "immediately dismissing" something.

We have this thing called history. Many people learn from it. Others repeat it.
 
Wonder234 said:
I'm not talking about whether it was stupid, I was talking about how it's preferable to withhold judgement rather than immediately dismissing something.
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So, let's not dismiss it immediately. Let's look for evidence. Do you have any evidence at all that the universe has a purpose? I don't know of anything that is necessarily true in the presence of a purpose but is definitely false without it. So, I don't know of a way to test that.

There is no reason to believe that which cannot be tested.

Step one, show that the universe has a purpose. Then we can move on to step two - how such a purpose might exist with or without a creator.

As it is, you're looking for debate on an issue that nobody here cares to defend.
 
Wonder234 said:
The reason I started this thread is that I got tired of seeing people say that the universe can have a purpose without an agent, and I was in the mood to debate.
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Crossbow said:
Oh really?

I have never seen anyone try to claim that the universe has a purpose but the universe does not have any sort of agent which created the universe.
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I'm with Crossbow.
 
I don't know... I have purposes for things I haven't made, and for things that weren't made with my purpose in mind. So if you're talking about that kind of purpose the universe certainly has at least one: it's where I keep all my stuff.

If you mean that the universe might have been created for some kind of purpose, then yes, you're automatically assuming a creator there. But then you're left with arguing that something that was designed has a designer and since that's already implied you don't really need to argue that anyway.
 
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Wonder234 said:
To fulfill a goal. Umbrellas fulfill the goal of keeping you dry while it rains.
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So you've defined it so that an inanimate object can have a purpose and given an example where the goal is known from a human perspective.

What is the goal of the universe?
 
Wonder234 said:
The thinking goes like this: To give something a purpose something has to have an intention for it. To have intention you have to have a mind. Therefore, if there were no minds there would be nothing to give the universe a purpose. Do you agree? Why or why not?
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Seems reasonable.

I, like so many others, believes that there is no purpose to the universe.

I'll deviate slightly from my fellow unbelievers by saying that it is conceivable that there is a purpose (and therefore something like a God), but if there is such a purpose, it is absolutely inconceivable that we know what it is.
 
Loss Leader said:
As it is, you're looking for debate on an issue that nobody here cares to defend.
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What exactly is this forum for if not for debate?


Loss Leader said:
Step one, show that the universe has a purpose. Then we can move on to step two - how such a purpose might exist with or without a creator.
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If it were possible, it would take me a long time to show that the universe has a purpose, at best, the only thing I could offer right now is weak arguments. I started this thread to debate whether purpose could exist without agents, I don't believe it's necessary to show that the universe has a purpose to argue that and that it wouldn't be very productive to argue about it.
 
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