CARINA LANDIN, Swedish Friend of the DEAD

This came in during early June, 2004. I accepted her claim while advising her that her test proposal would need some work before it could accepted. She replied by stating that she was pleased to have had her application accepted, while making no mention of her test proposal.

I then put her in contact with our colleagues in Sweden for testing, after which she became "difficult" during protocol negotiations.

She eventually vanished.

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I can let dead persons take contact through me.

If I hold an article like a ring, a peace of jewellrey or something else which has belonged to the dead person, I can most of the times make a contact with the former owner of the peace.

I describe the dead persons by telling my sitter about how they looked like, what caused their death (or how they passed over), diseases, sometimes what they worked with, personality and so on, and I have a message to my sitter about his/her situation today, in the future or real personal message from the dead person to my sitter about their relationship.

In my description the goal is that the sitter has recognized the dead person, and if he she doesn't do that, I don't get further with any messages. If I'm going to talk about their lives on earth, my sitter has tio know, that it is my contact who is talking, not me.

That they can't know if they don't know who my contact is.

A demonstration is with one person at a time. I can do ten sittings for this test. I would like to do 5 a day but if it is impossible to do the test in 2 days I can do 10 in one day.

Of the ten sittings 8 must be right, I have to been able to describe the right person.

I must have at least 80% correct in the details I give about the dead persons.

It must be guaranteed, that the article has belonged to the dead personand it must have been important in some way for the person while he/she was living.

For instance, a photograph isn't always important but a wedding ring is.

I want to do the test in Swedish, in Sweden, and with objective persons which both you and I can trust. How we are going to chose them I don't know, but I want to approve them.

I want to bring with me a friend, who is going to be my translator, because my English is not too good. The sittings can be taken on tape, so we both can control, that the translation has been correct.

-C. Landin

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Obviously there are several problems with her protocol, and more than just one or two little red flags. For example, if the test will be conducted in Swedish, presumably her native tongue, why does she need a translator?

Some of my correspondence with our Swedish colleague
(Professor Sven Ove Hansson at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm) follows in the next post...

From Professor Hansson...

Hello Kramer,
I have started a discussion with other Swedish skeptics on how to arrange a test of this claim. The major problem is that in her letter Ms. Landin says that someone who knew the dead person must be present in order to confirm the contact. I think it would be very difficult to arrange a scientifically acceptable test if that feature is accepted. I will see if I can talk her out of this condition. Another problem is how to find 10 objects that are "important in some way" to a dead person but do not reveal anything about that person by normal means.
-Sven Ove Hansson

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Hello Sven,

I agree that there are certain features in Ms. Landin's proposal that will make it difficult to arrange for an acceptable test, but the Challenge rules do state that the test protocol must be agreed to mutually, so, if she refuses to be tested under acceptable conditions, then she will not be tested, sadly.

I also agree with you that ten itmes of "importance" to the dead person is a lot. I propose that you suggest to her THREE items and she how she responds. She already seems to be making the requirements too difficult, which is, of course, many applicant's way of saying, "Randi refused to test me". We see this a LOT.

Please keep in mind also that the applicant must state on videotape (just prior to testing) that the test protocol was arrived at fairly, and that it was mutually agreed upon. This will insure that no applicant will attempt to state AFTER the test that the test was unfair. Then, AFTER the test (but PRIOR to revealing the test results) the applicant is once again asked to confirm for-the-record that the test was arrived at fairly, and conducted according to the mutually agreed-upon protocol.

After the results are revealed, the applicant is offered to opportunity to explain why they believe their alleged powers failed them.

I sincerely hope that you manage to arrive at something agreeable with this applicant, and that the hard work you are putting into the testing of this claim will not have been for nothing.

-Kramer, JREF

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More from SVEN OVE HANSSON...

Hello Kramer,

I have now discussed Ms. Landin's alleged powers extensively with her. What she claims to be able to do is the following:

A sitter comes to her with an object that has belonged to a dead person whom the sitter knew. She then tells the sitter about the dead person, receiving confirmation in dialog with the sitter as she goes on.

Furthermore:

1- She is NOT able to do this without a person present who knew the owner of the object.

2- It is OK that she and the sitter are placed back to back, so that they cannot see each other.

3- Video-recording of the session is OK.

4- She cannot do it without repeated feedback from the sitter. Designs in which the sitter has to be silent until she has finished talking about the object are NOT OK with her.

In my view, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to perform a fair test if point #4 is accepted by us. I am therefore considering writing to her to say that she must give up point #4 if there is to be a test. What do you think?

-Sven Ove Hansson

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Yes, Sven, I agree with you. This just sounds to me like "cold reading". We need to eliminate all possibility of this before testing can take place.

-Kramer, JREF

Final Letter from SVEN...and RANDI -

Hello Kramer,

I am still (11-7-2004) corresponding with Ms. Landin about testing her abilities. It took me some time get her to accept performing performing the test without a person present who would give her "feedback" (a "sitter").

But then a few weeks ago she withdrew that acceptance and said that she needs to have a sitter present. She says that the medium Edwards had a sitter present, but had a screen and earphones when being tested by Randi. Is this correct, and if so, can you send me the protocol so that we can see if we can use it for this claim?

-Sven Ove Hansson

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The reply from Randi, after I questioned him on this rumour...

I've never tested ANY medium named Edwards (did you mean EDWARD?) nor anyone wearing earphones. In fact, I've not tested any "medium" for over 20 years.

-James Randi

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At this point, we ceased to receive any further correspondence from the applicant.

And so it goes.

Ho Hum

Ms. Landin resurfaces... (1-19-2005)

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My name is Carina Landin and I live in Sweden.

In June last year you sent an email to Sven-Ove Hansson on KTH in Stockholm and ask him if he could arrange a test of my paranormal skills. That was seven month ago and I wondered if it's really shall take so long time. I have talk to S-O H several times, but I feel that nothing happens. He tells me that he has very much to do and I think that he really has, but if he has agreed to test me he should.

I wonder if you can ask another person in Sweden to do the test, a person who has the time. Hope you can understand my bad English.

Carina Landin

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Hello Ms. Landin,

I have been told by Mr. Hansson, who is one of the most highly qualified paranormal investigators in all of Europe, that after months of protocol negotiations, you withdrew your acceptance of the proposed protocol. According to the correspondence you shared with Mr. Hansson, you accepted our insistence that no "sitter" could be present to give you "feedback" during the test, and then, you withdrew that acceptance.

So, contrary to what you state in your email, the fact that you have not yet been tested has absolutely nothing to do with how busy Mr. Hansson is. He has never stated that he is too busy to test you. Such an assertion is absolutely false.

The facts in this case are quite plain: you have refused to accept a test protocol that excludes the possibility of cheating, or "cold reading".

You will be tested under mutually acceptable conditions, and NOT under any conditions that you dictate. Your proposed test protocol is NOT acceptable, and you do not seem to be willing to accept a test that insures against fraud.

If you truly with to be tested, you WILL be tested...but not without an agreement on a test that is conducted under acceptable conditions.

-Kramer, JREF

Soon to be tested?

Mr. Kramer,

I talk to Mr Hansson at least two times / month, I think that he is rather tired of me ;-) We have NOT any problems with the test protocol, the problem is according to Mr Hansson to find people an objects an of course lack of time. I think that a first test with three people is on its way. I apologist if I am eager, but it is nervous to go and wait for this test, it is soon eight months.

-Carina Landin

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Hello Carina,

OK. I sincerely hope that a test happens at the earliest possible convenience.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

Letter to Mr. Hansson (3.18.05)

Hello Sven,

Regarding JREF Challenge applicant CARINA LANDIN, what is the present status of the protocol negotiations? Has she vanished?

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Hi Kramer,

No, she has not vanished, but it has taken quite some time (and quite a few telephone conversations with her) to find a way to perform the test. I hope to be able to report on the test within a month or so.

Yours Best,

-Sven Ove Hansson

Letter to Sven Hansson (6.3.05)

Hello Sven,

Regarding JREF Challenge applicant CARINA LANDIN, what is the present status of the protocol negotiations?

If there's been no activity, we're ready to close her file.

-Kramer, JREF

From Ms. Landin

Dear Mr Kramer

I have now been waiting since the 4th of November to take the test. At that moment in time I had once changed my mind; from accepting that the test would be conducted without the owners of the objects being present to demanding that they did. That is the only delay I have a caused in this matter. Since then, I have called Mr Hansson at least three times every week, not to demand any changes whatsoever, only to inquire about the proceedings in finalising the test protocol.

I once wrote to you and informed you that Mr Hansson had little time to spare for this, but then I was told that I wasn't telling the truth! But I insist, once more, that it is the lack of time on Mr Hansson's behalf, which is causing the delay!

I read on your Forum that you were considering closing the case, which I find very unfair, since I'm not the person causing this delay!

I have reasons to believe that it will take some time before the actual test will occur, since Mr Hansson has decided that I will have an initial test performed with five objects, before the official preliminary test!

I noticed that a woman in England recently performed a test and I wonder if it would be possible that the same person that were in charge of that test, could handle mine as well? The English language is a problem for me, so in that case the test has to be translated to Swedish.

I sincerely hope that you don't close this file fore reasons outside of my control!

Kind regards,

Carina Landin

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Hello Ms. Landin,

Thank you for your speedy reply. I apologize for the delay in arranging a test for your claim.

Can you travel to London to be tested? If so, I am fairly certain that testing can easily arranged there.

I have emailed Sven and am now awaiting his reply.I will get back to you once I have heard from him. Your file will remain open until matters are concluded.

From Investigator Sven Hansson

OK, let's keep in touch so that she is offered exactly one opportunity, not two. I have engaged other people in the test so I would like to know if she goes to London instead.

Her description of her contacts with me is not correct, but that is not interesting.

My impression (from an English text she did not understand) is that her English may be insufficient for conducting the test in English. (Perhaps the text below was translated for her.) But I do not know, for obvious reasons I have never spoken with her in English. But that, of course, can be solved with interpretation.

Yours / Sven Ove

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Hello Sven,

Thanks for your speedy reply. It's good to hear from you.

Of course we greatly prefer that the test be conducted by you, in Sweden. Can you tell me what has transpired between yourself and Ms. Landin since you and I last corresponded on this matter?
Obviously, I am not getting the full details from Ms. Landin.

Letter to SVEN HANSSON, Investigator

Hello Again SVEN,

Has there been any forward movement with the CARINA LANDIN claim for the JREF Challenge?

As her application was submitted to us over one year ago, we are now prepared to close this file if there has been no substantial improvement in your correspondence with her.

Please advise.

Dear Mr. Kramer,

Within the last month, I have been trying to contact Mr. Hansson, without luck. His secretary must be getting pretty tired of me since I have sometimes called several times in a day.

I have told you many times that Mr. Hansson doesn't have time to conduct the test, but I am then accused of lying. If the test is going to be done it is perhaps best if I go to London, but my English is not so good so that doesn't feel comfortable either. Is there no one else in Sweden that can conduct the test?

I sincerely hope that you don't close the file due to factors out of my control, that would be unjust.

-Carina Landin

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Dear Ms. Landin,

It is my understanding that Mr. Hansson has spent a good deal of time trying to negotaite an acceptable test protocol with you, but without success. It is also my understanding that Mr. Hansson has already enlisted the help of other persons for your test. He and I both agree (as does James Randi) that you should be tested in Sweden.

Until then, please do not worry that your file will be closed as a result of these unfortunate delays. I will not close your file until I am absolutely certain that no acceptable test protocol can be agreed upon.

No one is accusing you of lying. And, by the way, your English is perfect.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Dear Mr. Kramer,

Your website states that it takes 1-4, at most 6 months, before a test can be run. I applied in April 2004. That Mr. Hansson has been unable to produce a protocol for over a year speaks, in my opinion, for itself. He has told me he's got a 20-hour work day and that still isn't enough. But never mind that now, the important thing is that I can do the test. If I've waited this long, I might as well wait some more.

I trust your word, that you won't close my case.

Have a nice weekend,

Carina Landin

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Dear Ms. Landin,

I have been told by Mr. Hansson of some circumstances that have slowed the process (which he states he has made you aware of), regarding the illness of the wife of one of the investogators.

I cannot see why you would take your present position with full knowledge of that situation. Are you denying that Mr. Hansson made you aware of this?

Furthermore, it is YOU, THE APPLICANT whom must "produce a protocol". To place this responsibility upon the investigator is wrong. What speaks for itself, in my opionion, is the tone of this most recent email you have sent to us.

Nevertheless, your file will not be closed until after your test, or until it has become clear that you will not agree to an acceptable test - whichever comes first. We at least agree that the most important thing is that you can do the test.

We regret that it has taken so long for a test to be arranged, but we cannot agree with your blaming Mr. Hansson for that fact.

I am aware of the fact that one of the professors has got a wife that's ill and that this has caused the delay. It occurred 6-8 weeks ago and I fully understand why it delays the test. It's the year before that I think the procedure took time. I've left messages with Hansson's secretary for a month now about me wanting to talk to him but he hasn't called so how should I know that the other professor still hasn't looked at the protocol?
Isn't it better if you let me know what you demand of the protocol in order to accept the results as valid, instead of me making different suggestions?

-Carina Landin

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Dear Ms. Landin,

I must wonder if the person helping you with the English translation is adding more anger to your emails than you actually intend to convey.

Regarding the delays of last year, are they not in the past, and shouldn't we now focus our strongest efforts and our energies on making a test happen in the near future, rather than complaining about what did NOT occur in the past?

If Mr. Hansson is confident that the proposed test protocol will indeed verify your claim (should you demonstrate it successfully), there is no need for you and I to debate this.

Mr. Hansson is our representative, and as such, he has our total confidence in this matter. If you are so dissatisfied with how poorly the application process has gone, please feel free to withdraw it at any time. At this point, we only wish to talk about the forthcoming test.

Once again, Ms. Landin, although we regret the delays you have experienced in seeing your claim tested, this is unavoidable sometimes, and we have no interest in wasting any more of your time arguing about the past. Our sole concern, at this point in time, lies in making sure that your claim is put to the test at the earliest possible convenience for all those involved.

Change of Claim Requires New Claim Letter

After many long months, there seems to be some forward movement with this applicant, but the test which our Swedish investigator Sven Ove Hansson has negotiated with Ms. Landin has nothing to do with her original claim, which was likely unable to be tested.

When an applicant changes their claim, a new claim letter needs to be submitted, and the previous withdrawn. I have notified the applicant of this requirement, following which we will seek to approve the new test protocol negotiated with Sven Ove Hansson. There is no need for her to submit a new application.

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From Sven Ove Hansson:

Dear Kramer,

After many discussions about other more complex experimental arrangements she agreed to an arrangement in which she will identify which of a selection of diaries were written by males respectively females. I am just now waiting for answers from people at archives who will hopefully provide us with a sufficient number of diaries (or course with no visible cue on the outside, and "sealed" so that they cannot be opened to peek at the handwriting.

Sven Ove

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Hello Sven,

It seems that Ms. Landin's claim is now completely different from the claim she originally submitted. I am very pleased to hear that an acceptable test protocol has been arrived at between you, but Ms. Landin must now submit to us a new claim letter in order for any test you conduct to be considered an official JREF Paranormal Challange test. There is no need for her to submit a new application. All we require is a new claim letter that reflects the agreed-upon test protocol. Upon receipt, I will submit it to Randi for his approval. Thanks agains for all the hard work you put into this. I know you have labored over this claim for more than a year now, and both Randi and I want you to know how very much we appreciate that. We also greatly appreciate Ms. Landin's patience.

New Protocol

I, Carina Landin, have agreed a test protocol as following:

I will get 20 diaries, which has belonged to persons who has passed away, in my hand, one by one.Without any informaion and without looking at the handwriting I willl be able to identify wheather it is a male or a female who has been writing in the diary. This identification I will be able to do without opening the diaries.

Out of these 20 diaries atleast 16 has to be right (80% of the material) concidering what I say has been written by a male or a female. If less than 16 is right, I accept that the test resault is negative. With 16 or higher numbers of right out of the 20 diaries, the test resault is positive.

These conditions I have accepted together with MR Sven-Ove Hansson to be the way the testing will be done. I have also agreed to be videotaped during the test.

My application has been written to the JREf in a little different way in april 2004 and what I here write will be the way I have accepted to be the testprotocol of my abilities.

Carina Landin

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Hello Ms. Landin,

I await confirmation from Sven Ove before presenting your revised claim and protocol to Randi for final approval.

We also now need you to revise your actual claim.

Please submit a one-sentence summary of your newly revised claim.

The Revised Claim

I claim that I can, without knowing any background or getting any information and by holding a closed diary in my hand, tell if it is a female or a male passed person who, when they were alive,have been writing the diary.
-Carina Landin

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Randi has accepted this claim, but the protocol must be air-tight. We hope to work that out with Sven Ove Hansson and Ms. Landin.

According to our resident statistician (Chip Denman);

16 (or better) out of 20 would be fairly significant -- there's only about 0.6% chance of her do that by dumb luck...most journals would publish it.

To Ms. Landin, from Kramer (cc; Sven Ove Hansson)

Dear Ms. Landin,

OK, thanks for the revised claim. I am now still waiting for a reply from Sven Ove.

Regarding your test protocol, we would be concerned about the appearance of the diaries. Obviously, a woman's diary may likely be adorned with flowery print or some other visual indication that it had belonged to a woman. We may also require a drop of perfume on each diary, so that they all smell the same.

Can you demonstrate this ability if the diaries are enclosed in individual
brown paper bags, so that you cannot see what each one looks like? Please advise.

So far, Randi is OK with the basic proposal. We just feel that there are some minor points to clarify. Good Luck with the test!

Dear Kramer,

The diaries are not my idea, it was Sven Ove´s. In Sven-Oves opinion the first testprotocol was too complicated to prove in a scientific way. That´s why we continued the discussions with the diaries.

The parfume is ok, you can make them all smell the same, it doesn´t change anything for me.

But the paperbags is not ok. I have to have the item in my hand, towards my skin. Sven-Ove is looking for diaries which looks the same, all of them, without a clue about if it has been in a women´s or a man´s posission. If he can´t find 20 of these, then it would be an option that I will be blindfolded at the test, so I can´t see the books. But I have to feel them in my hands.

-Carina Landin

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Hello Ms. Landin,

Thank you for your speedy reply.

OK, we understand the need to touch the diaries. Of course. It sounds like Sven Ove is doing an excellent job of designing the protocol with you. We are pelased to hear that things are moving forward, and we look forward to your preliminary Challenge test with great anticipation.

From our associate in Sweden, Sven Ove Hansson

Hallo Randi, nice to hear from you.
And hallo Kramer, d

A short summary: Carina Landin first wanted me to test her ability to provide information about the deceased owner of an object when someone who knew the owner is present. (As I understand it, she gives readings of that nature regularly.) I made a lot of efforts to find a protocol acceptable to her in which that ability could be tested. This was very difficult.

Then finally she agreed to a proposal that she had declined earlier, namely that she should simply tell us the sex of the persons who have written various diaries, when nobody is present who knew the person (or knows that person's sex). I chose diaries because she has stressed that the objects should be personal, and have meant something to the owner.

Libraries and archives are not very fond of lending their material for this type of research. But today I received the final confirmation that a major archive in Stockhom is willing to let us do it. They have a huge collection of diaries, and an experienced archivist has been given the task to heIp me. I am leaving for Germany very early tomorrow, but when I come back next week I will discuss details with them. What I want is 10 diaries written by men and 10 by women, if possible with no handwriting on the outside (and certainly with no name on the outside) and with no other systematic differences (such as size). They will have to be sealed and numbered. The only issue for the protocol that I do not have a good solution for is scent, but I will eliminate diaries that I find to have a specific smell.

Since Ms Landin says that she is certain to have more than 80% success rate in this task, I think it is fair to set 16 out of 20 as the limit. If she manages to do that or better I will be very curious to find out what is going on.

Of course, any advice before I finalize the protocol would be welcome. Do you want me to send a draft?

Yours / Sven Ove