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Old 10th April 2018, 06:09 PM   #361
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Outside of sports where the advantages to transwomen vs ciswomen is debatable how is being inclusive hurting women's health and what ever is in the ect?

How is women's health being encroached upon?
Why are men kept out of women's spaces? Presumably the answer to why trans women are worrying to women lies there.

On a tangential note... My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men. It was a nice office, it wasn't like people were smearing **** on the walls.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:29 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
From the first paragraph in the link:



In the first paragraph, she correctly identifies the problem. Your most noticeable feature is your sex, and when you "notice" someone's sex, you notice it based on appearance.


So, if you happen to be in a situation, like a locker room, where you might notice what is normally hidden behind a zipper, you're going to judge their maleness or femaleness based on what you can see, not based on what they might be thinking at the time, or the shape of something that is hidden inside the cranium.
I'm sure it must be a shocking revelation to a lot of people that we tend to determine what people are based on objective characteristics, not the belief of the person in question.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:30 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men.
May I ask why? I ask because my proposed solution to the transgender restroom issue was unisex restrooms.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:56 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'. There are multiple body systems telling them this. When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman.
The first thing that jumped out from the link is the article has "two spirit" as the midpoint between male and female on the gender identity plot. Isn't that some New Age ********?

They try to use "some degree of" ambiguous genitalia at birth to make issues impacting trans people more common than they are.

I'm genuinely curious about the 63% experiencing discrimination figure. It includes people who claim to have been incarcerated due to gender expression. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the story quoted when you click through is about being a drug dealing/addicted thief/hooker. Are trans people genuinely getting incarcerated for their gender expression?

As for the brain stuff. Are they saying that trans women have brains within the normal range of women? I saw statements about some features, and some brain structures.... She seems to want to use ways in which trans brains might be more like their claimed gender to identify what a mans brain or a woman's brain in. This seems like a pretty circular thing to do in so far as this type of discussion goes.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:56 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, are they Napoleon by the simple fact that their "bodies" tell them that they are?
You tell me. You're the one who thinks it's related. How is it related? What research into people who think they are Napoleon leads you to the conclusion it's a related phenomenon?



Quote:
I want to understand how you define what makes someone the thing they claim to be. I'm still not sure how you define "man" and "woman" outside of "they feel like they are so".
How consistently do they feel they are so? How much satisfaction do they get from steps of transitioning?

Being a 'man' or a 'woman' isn't and has never been one thing. It is a clustering of sexually dimorphic traits combined with social constructions on what those 'mean'. Taking out any six of them ultimately doesn't make them not the gender they are. A woman has breasts. Does a flat-chested woman not a woman, or even less of a woman? Is a man who develops female breast tissue not a man? Women can have children. Is a woman who cannot less of a woman, and a man who can't get a woman pregnant less of a man? Men and women respond differently to catecholamines, is a man who does not respond with excitement to them less of a man?

Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.



Quote:
If you look back at the post you quoted, and presumably read, I was talking about the culture of validation.
Yeah, I know. You also indicated what you believe 'the culture of validation' means, and that's listening to the people's claims of what their gender is.



Quote:
That's at least one thing we agree on.



Who said it had to be simple?
Those asking for single definitions on what it 'woman' means are asking for something simple, whether or not they realize it.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay let's try a more grounded comparison.

Rachel Dolezal. Remember her? The white lady (German, Swedish, and Czech ancestory) that "identified" as black and headed a chapter of the NAACP?

Is she black? "Race" is certainly a near totally social construct.
See the above about Napoleon people as it applies here too. In addition, this indicates that you think I'm saying that gender is only a function of biology OR a social construct, and that something being a social construct means it's completely arbitrary. This isn't the case.

In short, those phenomenon don't relate closely, unless you have something to show they do.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Which multiple body systems? All I'm seeing is brain/mind.
Sorry, it might not actually be in that link. The other systems include different patterns of transmitting, regulating, and processing biomolecules. Keeping in mind the point I made above about 'clustering of traits' and that these are tendencies of various strengths, some other different reactions are to things like testosterone, aromatase, serotonin, vasopressin. There are also differences in things like cholinergic system that helps in sleep and reactions to opioids. For example, women's bodies tend to not develop muscle as readily even taking male levels of steroids that do work on males. Opioid reaction tends to be stronger in women and trans women.

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/u...alifornia.html
The first link notes how both ways are still used and debated. I'm for the cutting down on red tape, but that consulting with professionals is always going to be advisable. It's just too damn complicated. Depending of course, on what stage or behavior is being challenged. That is to say, I think asking for ID or anything besides self-identification to use the restroom is wrong. In the overwhelming number of social interactions, self-identification should be way more than enough.

I'm no essentialist, but if you didn't notice from my criticisms of some of the ways transgender issues are advanced and push in places they are not salient I'm not above disagreeing with some of the transgender community. There is a lot of discussion about that in community, and I'm well aware of it. As a matter of fact, I've learned a lot from my friends and family who are part of that community venting about what they see as the anti-science and emotional reaction based reasoning of those doing things like denying biology has any effect at all or demanding to be part of abortion safe-spaces and the like.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:03 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The first thing that jumped out from the link is the article has "two spirit" as the midpoint between male and female on the gender identity plot. Isn't that some New Age ********?
It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.

Quote:
They try to use "some degree of" ambiguous genitalia at birth to make issues impacting trans people more common than they are.
Huh?

Quote:
I'm genuinely curious about the 63% experiencing discrimination figure. It includes people who claim to have been incarcerated due to gender expression. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the story quoted when you click through is about being a drug dealing/addicted thief/hooker. Are trans people genuinely getting incarcerated for their gender expression?
Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.

Quote:
As for the brain stuff. Are they saying that trans women have brains within the normal range of women? I saw statements about some features, and some brain structures.... She seems to want to use ways in which trans brains might be more like their claimed gender to identify what a mans brain or a woman's brain in. This seems like a pretty circular thing to do in so far as this type of discussion goes.
Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:08 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In the overwhelming number of social interactions, self-identification should be way more than enough.
And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:10 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.
We've had this discussion many times before. My view hasn't changed, and I doubt yours ever will.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:12 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
We've had this discussion many times before. My view hasn't changed, and I doubt yours ever will.
True. The issues haven't changed.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:14 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post

Sorry, it might not actually be in that link. The other systems include different patterns of transmitting, regulating, and processing biomolecules. Keeping in mind the point I made above about 'clustering of traits' and that these are tendencies of various strengths, some other different reactions are to things like testosterone, aromatase, serotonin, vasopressin. There are also differences in things like cholinergic system that helps in sleep and reactions to opioids. For example, women's bodies tend to not develop muscle as readily even taking male levels of steroids that do work on males. Opioid reaction tends to be stronger in women and trans women.
Can I get a link on the highlighted?

Re: the stuff like the bolded, are you saying pre-transition transwomen have stronger opioid reactions stronger than cismen? Can I get a link on whatever you're talking about there, too?
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:18 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/u...alifornia.html
This is my understanding as well, and most transwomen would be pretty offended if you told them they needed some professional to authenticate their status as a woman or transwoman.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.
There is a ready response if somebody calls you a bigot for such a thing. You say, "whatever!"
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:27 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay let's try a more grounded comparison.

Rachel Dolezal. Remember her? The white lady (German, Swedish, and Czech ancestory) that "identified" as black and headed a chapter of the NAACP?

Is she black? "Race" is certainly a near totally social construct.
I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:31 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
May I ask why? I ask because my proposed solution to the transgender restroom issue was unisex restrooms.
It was never made completely explicit beyond "it should be obvious". If you think about stereotypes of married life... men leaving the toilet seat up and their wives complaining must have been a cliche since the invention of the toilet seat. These toilets had sinks in the cubicles, if some water from there goes on the toilet seat (this did happen because it was all so cramped), or some water from the flush goes on the seat.... the men are disgusting pigs. If somebody stinks out the toilets, the men are disgusting pigs.

I generalize of course, but it was a source of conflict and it all went one way.

Its not like women going into men's toilets is unique... Long queues seem to trigger it pretty frequently. My impression is that women's toilets are more vigorously defended than men's, women are much less used to men using their toilets and women view men's toilet habits, taken in the round, as not necessarily always beyond reproach.

Stereotypically, men's and women's toilets are rather different social spaces. Beyond the purely functional aspect, a unisex toilet isn't going to be the same as a segregated one. Some contexts that change will hardly be noticeable, some it will be. I guess its not the end of the world, but its not simply a case of allowing more people in but nothing changing.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:41 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.
Only if you define it as the sort of thing where the subjects own feeling is decisive. This seems circular to me.

The whole point done to death a million times long before this thread is that a lot of people don't accept this very point

Last edited by shuttlt; 10th April 2018 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:42 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.



Huh?



Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.



Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)
I think you might mean "refuse to give their legal name and known aliases"

Not "Don't want to use their birth name"
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:44 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.
Because a bigoted world would not have accepted her if she'd spoken the truth.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:02 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because a bigoted world would not have accepted her if she'd spoken the truth.
So just lie like a rug and that makes her...what? More noble?
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:31 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's more like 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid', where one falls in between and really can't decide or sometimes they feel closer to one and sometimes closer to another. That's actually back on the original topic, because trans men and women are still going to binary genders, not multiple.
I know what the word means. It is just an odd word to use in the context.Just makes me wonder about the person writing the article, that's all.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh?
From your link:
"And so, while the list of causes for transgender identity continues to grow, it has become quite clear that it is not a conscious choice – similar to what has been described for the “reasons” behind sexual orientation. Still, at least 63% of transgender individuals experience debilitating acts of discrimination on a regular basis, including incarceration, homelessness, and physical assault. When about 1.7% of the population is in some way affected by cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth, these findings seem staggering."
How does the 0.3% of the population the article says are trans being discriminated against because of their gender expression relate to men with tiny penises?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes. It's sadly common for anyone interacting with the police to be held longer or have additional charges based on 'lying' about their gender or identity for 'giving a false name' when they don't want to use their birth name.
Ah, so lying to the police and then getting arrested counts as discrimination... OK.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Again, huh? That's not circular. Those traits tend to be either men's or women's and the transgender people tend to have these traits inside the range of their claimed gender and not their birth assignment. (There is a lot of overlap between 'male' and 'female' brain traits. See my clustering argument in an earlier post.)
Can they use these features to sort a random pile brains into the gender they identify with any reliability? Are there features of female brains that don't correlate with trans females?

From the little bit in the article, it seemed they went looking for brain features with statistical correlations between trans brains and the gender they identified with and then asserted the gender of the brain, what ever that is, is in the brain structures where trans brains were similar to the brains of the gender they identified with. That assumes the conclusion it is looking to prove.

If somebody believed (does anybody on the thread believe this?) that there was some characteristic in the brains of born women that defined the essential essence of womanliness, but that trans women don't have it... How does pointing to brain structures in trans women's brains that are more in the female range, but possibly still overlapping with the male range (?), and ignoring the structures that mark those brains out as male get you anywhere? Who on the thread is being refuted here?
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:42 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So just lie like a rug and that makes her...what? More noble?
Oh, she's high grade crazy, but if trans-race exists the people who are going to try and live the trans racial life are going to self-select for outlier personality types. It takes crazy nerve for a white woman to walk about amongst black people with fake afro hair and fake tan pretending to be black.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:45 PM   #381
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I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:47 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.
A woman at my new work told me the same ;-)
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:25 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Only if you define it as the sort of thing where the subjects own feeling is decisive. This seems circular to me.

The whole point done to death a million times long before this thread is that a lot of people don't accept this very point
What do you mean by 'it' and 'feelings' because I'm getting the 'feeling' we're using the terms differently.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think you might mean "refuse to give their legal name and known aliases"

Not "Don't want to use their birth name"
No, I do not. I mean they get held for giving their legal name rather than their birth name. They're also at greater risk of violence at the hands of police and a markedly reduced response to their reports of being victimized. This thankfully is one area that has gotten better in the last ten years, depending on one's location.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I know what the word means. It is just an odd word to use in the context.Just makes me wonder about the person writing the article, that's all.


From your link:
"And so, while the list of causes for transgender identity continues to grow, it has become quite clear that it is not a conscious choice – similar to what has been described for the “reasons” behind sexual orientation. Still, at least 63% of transgender individuals experience debilitating acts of discrimination on a regular basis, including incarceration, homelessness, and physical assault. When about 1.7% of the population is in some way affected by cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth, these findings seem staggering."
How does the 0.3% of the population the article says are trans being discriminated against because of their gender expression relate to men with tiny penises?
Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Did you think that ambiguous genitalia means only small penises?

The best I can make of what that section is saying is that many more people could be effected by this discrimination than currently are.


Quote:
Ah, so lying to the police and then getting arrested counts as discrimination... OK.
No. Giving your legal name and held when everyone else would have been released is discrimination. This is much like how it's discrimination for black people and men to get much harsher sentences than others, even though they really did commit crimes too.


Quote:
Can they use these features to sort a random pile brains into the gender they identify with any reliability? Are there features of female brains that don't correlate with trans females?
None that I know of.

Quote:
From the little bit in the article, it seemed they went looking for brain features with statistical correlations between trans brains and the gender they identified with and then asserted the gender of the brain, what ever that is, is in the brain structures where trans brains were similar to the brains of the gender they identified with. That assumes the conclusion it is looking to prove.
Why do you feel this?

Quote:
If somebody believed (does anybody on the thread believe this?) that there was some characteristic in the brains of born women that defined the essential essence of womanliness, but that trans women don't have it... How does pointing to brain structures in trans women's brains that are more in the female range, but possibly still overlapping with the male range (?), and ignoring the structures that mark those brains out as male get you anywhere? Who on the thread is being refuted here?
First, who is doing that? Secondly, as I pointed out above gender traits are clusters of tendencies. There are cis women whose traits don't all line up with women's traits.

Yes, who is being refuted here? Some people are actually interested in more information. It isn't just a debate team exercise.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:38 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What do you mean by 'it' and 'feelings' because I'm getting the 'feeling' we're using the terms differently.



No, I do not. I mean they get held for giving their legal name rather than their birth name. They're also at greater risk of violence at the hands of police and a markedly reduced response to their reports of being victimized. This thankfully is one area that has gotten better in the last ten years, depending on one's location.



Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Did you think that ambiguous genitalia means only small penises?

The best I can make of what that section is saying is that many more people could be effected by this discrimination than currently are.




No. Giving your legal name and held when everyone else would have been released is discrimination. This is much like how it's discrimination for black people and men to get much harsher sentences than others, even though they really did commit crimes too.




None that I know of.



Why do you feel this?



First, who is doing that? Secondly, as I pointed out above gender traits are clusters of tendencies. There are cis women whose traits don't all line up with women's traits.

Yes, who is being refuted here? Some people are actually interested in more information. It isn't just a debate team exercise.
Which is why I put known aliases

Anyone can commit loads of crimes and then change their name.

The police need to know what the old one was just in case someone has done this

Trans or not

You chose to personalise it.

Which is a bit odd
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Old 10th April 2018, 10:29 PM   #385
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The "two spirit" is an umbrella term for the third gender in certain Native American societies.

This is where it gets tricky. It, and many other third genders, only make sense in their unique social, cultural, and religious frameworks. What does it mean when one identifies with something that their society hasn't constructed? Are all constructions under the amoral umbrella of cultural relativity? Or are some better or worse, and we should try to change them? The answers seem to be different at different times.

On the one hand, the modern LGBT movement calls sexual orientation and gender social constructs. On the other, it is often seen as hegemonic, reading into other culture's its own definitions and appropriating as it sees fit.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:15 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.
True but I think men are a lot worse. It may depend on the type of location. I managed a bar for 5 years and the women's room never had puddles of urine on the floor (among other things) and it was used as much as the men's. The men's was not good at all.

If I had to drop a load and I had a choice between the two I would choose the women's room. I saw a bachelor pad recently and asked to use their toilet and oh my frickin' gawd I will not describe it here at all.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:21 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
All you need to do is present evidence.

I think you misinterpreted something you read.
Lewis Wolpert is a developmental biologist who has studied how embryos develop from the fertilized egg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Wolpert

From Wolpert's book "Why Can't a Man Be More Like a Woman?: The Evolution of Sex and Gender.

Quote:
The first big surprise happens before birth. All men in the world today are essentially biologically modified women, because we all start our embryonic lives as females (that is why, for example, men still have breasts, even though they serve no function). The biological differences that can be found between the bodies and brains of males and females are largely due to the way these embryos develop in the womb.

We all come from a single cell, the egg, from the female. The early development of the human embryo is similar in males and females, and is essentially female, with male features appearing only at later stages. Whether we develop as a female or male depends on whether the sperm brings in an X or Y chromosome. The genes on the Y chromosome cause testes to develop, which secrete the hormone testosterone and suppress female development.
Quote:
Fair enough. How do you define "male"?
In humans it is the members of the species that normally produce sperm, or anyone who transitions to appear like one. This is a new definition actually because I'm all for transgendered people being called male or female if they choose. I really don't care about the other names they want to be called either as long as I don't have to use the silly wordage. And of course they don't get to decide how I identify.

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No, me being wrong cannot follow from you missing the point. You'd have to understand and address the point first.
The point was addressed. The fact that you don't like the answer matters not.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:24 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.
Well that logic applies to many of the labels currently in use for gender identification.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:38 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/u...alifornia.html
When you remove all criteria from a definition, a logical person will default to a more specific definition as a definition requires criteria to be useful.

If I we're to say that the only requirement for a person to have type o blood is self identification ,even if I convince others to accept my new definition I have just made the term type o blood meaningless. And anyone who needs to actually use this information will either make a new term to describe the same thing type o used to mean ,or simply use the old definition.

This **** is useless, confusing being nice with being moral will lead to nothing but spinning our wheels and retarding the progress of not only equality by people simply getting the **** along.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:35 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Being a 'man' or a 'woman' isn't and has never been one thing. It is a clustering of sexually dimorphic traits combined with social constructions on what those 'mean'. Taking out any six of them ultimately doesn't make them not the gender they are. A woman has breasts. Does a flat-chested woman not a woman, or even less of a woman? Is a man who develops female breast tissue not a man? Women can have children. Is a woman who cannot less of a woman, and a man who can't get a woman pregnant less of a man? Men and women respond differently to catecholamines, is a man who does not respond with excitement to them less of a man?
I guess you're not going to answer my question so here's another one: how about a man who CAN get pregnant, has breasts, female genitals, hormones and body structure, etc.?

Quote:
Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.
You don't think that this flies in the face of every definition of everything? And how do you define "feeling" if it doesn't include how they feel about their bodies?

Could I decide that I'm not, in fact, left-handed despite the objective evidence available to other people? I want to know why you place such a relative importance on what the person determines on their own as opposed to objective evidence that everybody else can see and conclude from.

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Those asking for single definitions on what it 'woman' means are asking for something simple, whether or not they realize it.
No, that doesn't follow at all. But those who refuse to provide that working definition are deliberately making it impossible to discuss.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:43 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Lewis Wolpert is a developmental biologist who has studied how embryos develop from the fertilized egg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Wolpert

From Wolpert's book "Why Can't a Man Be More Like a Woman?: The Evolution of Sex and Gender.
Wait a second. If one demonstration that men are modified women is that men have non-functional breasts, isn't the clitoris evidence that women are modified men? If you look at foetuses before a certain point their "eggs" are not where they should be for either sex. I don't really get his basis for that.

Quote:
In humans it is the members of the species that normally produce sperm, or anyone who transitions to appear like one. This is a new definition actually because I'm all for transgendered people being called male or female if they choose.
Ok, fair enough. I find it a bit circular in that it's tailored to include trans-men but ok. I have a bit of an issue with the use of the word "normally", however. How would one determine that someone who doesn't produce sperm is a male, then?

Quote:
The point was addressed. The fact that you don't like the answer matters not.
You didn't address it at all. Your responses showed that you didn't understand the point I was making. Why are so afraid to admit that?
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:59 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Everyone is born male or female and some spend a certain amount of time transitioning Modifying themselves) to the other gender so they are called transgender. In my opinion, once they get there they are just that gender and no longer trans. I can be on a trans-continental trip but once I get there the trip is over and I am just on the other side of the continent.
You have to be in denial of biology to not see that cisgender and transgender are different. Gender is not actually 100% like a transatlantic trip.

Whether words like "male" and "female" and "man" and "woman" should be trans-inclusive as a default is a matter of opinion.
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Old 11th April 2018, 03:51 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
PT: How do you feel about Mack Begg's then?
He should be competing against other boys.

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Or for that matter, Fallon Fox?
Ok with it, is there any real data to show that trans women would dominate women's sports?

And what does that have to do with anything else as I accepted that the data may or may not back keeping trans women out of women's sports? Just that I had not seen anything conclusive on it.
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:48 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why are men kept out of women's spaces? Presumably the answer to why trans women are worrying to women lies there.

On a tangential note... My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men. It was a nice office, it wasn't like people were smearing **** on the walls.
Culture would be the answer and that is the point of people trying to change the culture.
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:51 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.
And yet young boys being raped by future speakers of the house is fine of course. Because that doesn't rock the boat.

You do know that teen pregnancies are at historic low levels right?
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:54 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Oh, she's high grade crazy, but if trans-race exists the people who are going to try and live the trans racial life are going to self-select for outlier personality types. It takes crazy nerve for a white woman to walk about amongst black people with fake afro hair and fake tan pretending to be black.
Is it trans racial for a black person to pass as white? And what does that have to do with anything about gender?
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:55 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The "two spirit" is an umbrella term for the third gender in certain Native American societies.

This is where it gets tricky. It, and many other third genders, only make sense in their unique social, cultural, and religious frameworks. What does it mean when one identifies with something that their society hasn't constructed? Are all constructions under the amoral umbrella of cultural relativity? Or are some better or worse, and we should try to change them? The answers seem to be different at different times.

On the one hand, the modern LGBT movement calls sexual orientation and gender social constructs. On the other, it is often seen as hegemonic, reading into other culture's its own definitions and appropriating as it sees fit.
Just seems odd to me to see two-spirit in the article. One wouldn't use Hindu Gods like Lakshmi on an article purporting to give the scientific consensus on birth defects, regardless of religious and cultural traditional that may exist linking the two.

Smacks up cultural appropriation if nothing else.
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:57 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
True but I think men are a lot worse. It may depend on the type of location. I managed a bar for 5 years and the women's room never had puddles of urine on the floor (among other things) and it was used as much as the men's. The men's was not good at all.

If I had to drop a load and I had a choice between the two I would choose the women's room. I saw a bachelor pad recently and asked to use their toilet and oh my frickin' gawd I will not describe it here at all.
Peeing on the floor is a lot more likely if you pee standing up. I am sure if more women peed standing up they would have more urine on the floor. And if fewer men did the same. Add drunk men with likely worse aim into it and you have a different situation than basic cleanliness.
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Old 11th April 2018, 05:04 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Is it trans racial for a black person to pass as white? And what does that have to do with anything about gender?
Do they claim that they really are white in a sense that is similar to being trans sexual? In any case, I didn't introduce trans racialism into the conversation, so I haven't thought about it too hard. If self identification is all that is required for gender, I don't see why race should be different.
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Old 11th April 2018, 05:06 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet young boys being raped by future speakers of the house is fine of course. Because that doesn't rock the boat.

You do know that teen pregnancies are at historic low levels right?
Seems like the resistance to trans in female toilets isn't prejudice about trans, but prejudice about men :-)
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