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Old 15th May 2018, 04:19 PM   #1721
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No, it's Wikipedia. That page is like the Amanda Knox page when the guilters had taken it over to promote their weird version of events.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:25 PM   #1722
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
When Wikipedia is searched for the term "autogynephilia" the search is redirected to "Blanchard's transsexualism typologyWP".

But when Amazon.com's kindle store is searched for erotica that involves "gender swap", there are a whole lot of hits, the vast majority of which involved men changing into women, via magic, science fiction, or any number of other paranormal phenomena.


I had never heard the term "autogynephilia" before this thread, but somebody is buying that porn. I am sure that, like most fantasy porn, the majority of people reading it don't actually want to act out those fantasies in real life. I'm equally certain that a minority of people reading it do want to act out those things, and will take it to various levels to do so.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:25 PM   #1723
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, it's Wikipedia. That page is like the Amanda Knox page when the guilters had taken it over to promote their weird version of events.
Wait what now?

ETA: Never mind.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:32 PM   #1724
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't see an argument beyond "My fear and discomfort has to count, nobody else's can count and indeed makes them a bigot."

Are there people saying that other people's discomfort doesn't count? I don't think anyone has said that the only offensive scenario is males in a female-only environment.

I, personally, have said I wouldn't feel threatened by females in a male-only place like a bathroom or locker room, but that's a different thing than not feeling any discomfort.

I'm not going to go down the path I went down before, where my words were easily misinterpreted (my fault for bad wording), but the focus on women's discomfort around biological males does not mean that's the only troublesome scenario. It's just the one that creates the most frequent discomfort.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:35 PM   #1725
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, it's Wikipedia. That page is like the Amanda Knox page when the guilters had taken it over to promote their weird version of events.

It is a well cross-referenced article.

This would probably explain why you resort to a knee-jerk criticism of Wikipedia, rather than any discussion of the content of the article.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:38 PM   #1726
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No we're at "Define the point at which I'm comfortable with things as 'The current setup' and make everyone else defend any further changes."
You first have to say why you think the change is necessary

It is a bit like this

Dave - "I want the whole world to not eat meat any more"

Fred - "The vast majority of people meat. It's normal to eat meat. Why should I stop eating meat?"

Dave - "I don't have to tell you why. What is wrong with stopping eating meat? I want you to. And you are just being stubborn and want to keep eating meat because you hate change"
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:39 PM   #1727
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I had never heard the term "autogynephilia" before this thread, but somebody is buying that porn. I am sure that, like most fantasy porn, the majority of people reading it don't actually want to act out those fantasies in real life. I'm equally certain that a minority of people reading it do want to act out those things, and will take it to various levels to do so.

I don't have the links saved because clicking on them made me feel dirty, but there are whole web sites devoted to the sale of latex and rubber devices designed to change a male body into the appearance of a female one. The whole-body suits were particularly creepy, but the various genital accessories designed to allow a male to assume the appearance of a female and even be penetrated were more disturbing. The ones with pouches to take fake blood so that the men could pretend to be menstruating were beyond sick.

Enough people are buying this gear to support several successful businesses selling the stuff. I'm still boggling, but it's real enough.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:40 PM   #1728
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Are there people saying that other people's discomfort doesn't count?
No I'm saying that is what other people are saying, or implying, or creating standards where that is the functional way it all works out in the end.

Quote:
I don't think anyone has said that the only offensive scenario is males in a female-only environment.
Not in so many words. But the same people who are ready to paint a male who is uneasy with a gay man or trans person in their.... errr space (I'm not going to keep tying out bathroom/locker room/changing room/etc over and over) as a bigot seem to often see a woman being outright terrified of a man in that exact same space as a non-issue.

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I, personally, have said I wouldn't feel threatened by females in a male-only place like a bathroom or locker room, but that's a different thing than not feeling any discomfort.
I'm not threatened by any one simply via their demographic, and all I'm asking for is the same courtesy.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:42 PM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But when Amazon.com's kindle store is searched for erotica that involves "gender swap", there are a whole lot of hits, the vast majority of which involved men changing into women, via magic, science fiction, or any number of other paranormal phenomena.

Sure. As well as many other fantasies.

Quote:

I had never heard the term "autogynephilia" before this thread,

Probably because it has no clinical significance outside of those people who find Blanchard's theories comforting to their prejudices.

Quote:
but somebody is buying that porn. I am sure that, like most fantasy porn, the majority of people reading it don't actually want to act out those fantasies in real life. I'm equally certain that a minority of people reading it do want to act out those things, and will take it to various levels to do so.

Not sure what that has to do with Blanchard's diagnosis of "autogynephilia".

It's pretty well documented that cross-dressers are generally hetero, and the gay "drag queens" are simply gay. Neither has any interest in transitioning.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:45 PM   #1730
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https://twitter.com/FBikehorse/statu...67796547719169

Sounds about right.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:47 PM   #1731
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You first have to say why you think the change is necessary

It is a bit like this

Dave - "I want the whole world to not eat meat any more"

Fred - "The vast majority of people meat. It's normal to eat meat. Why should I stop eating meat?"

Dave - "I don't have to tell you why. What is wrong with stopping eating meat? I want you to. And you are just being stubborn and want to keep eating meat because you hate change"
No I'm saying I want to eat meat after you've already accepted the "change" of a bunch of people going up to buffet and mixing the meat and veggie options around so I don't know what I'm getting, then getting mad at me for wanting "a change."

The metaphor sorta only halfway works there but my point is you can't accept the "change" of complicating the gender rolls with no resistance but then dig your heels in and demand the "change" of at least clarifying who is interacting with who in what way.

Again you seem to offer no resistance to the changes you want and demand high resistance on the changes you don't want.

Your concept of "change" seems to have a pretty high double standard.

In other words when the change I want is to undue a change you want, there really isn't a "Defend the status quo" high ground for one of us to take.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:47 PM   #1732
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

And yet, you are casually dismissive of a Wiki article with 50 citations?

Sounds about right.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:56 PM   #1733
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No I'm saying I want to eat meat after you've already accepted the "change" of a bunch of people going up to buffet and mixing the meat and veggie options around so I don't know what I'm getting, then getting mad at me for wanting "a change."

The metaphor sorta only halfway works there but my point is you can't accept the "change" of complicating the gender rolls with no resistance but then dig your heels in and demand the "change" of at least clarifying who is interacting with who in what way.

Again you seem to offer no resistance to the changes you want and demand high resistance on the changes you don't want.

Your concept of "change" seems to have a pretty high double standard.

In other words when the change I want is to undue a change you want, there really isn't a "Defend the status quo" high ground for one of us to take.
I haven't accepted any changes

I just accept there are people who think they are the opposite sex.

Frankly I don't give a ****.

Except for making the personal choice of referring to them as their chosen pronoun, this doesn't affect me in the least.

What you are talking about is changing the entire system and meaning of privacy. A real change that will have a real affect on some people to a varying degree.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:57 PM   #1734
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not sure what that has to do with Blanchard's diagnosis of "autogynephilia".
No surprises there.


But I should note that the porn I referenced had nothing to do with cross dressing or drag queens. There's plenty of that, too, but it's different books. Therefore, your subsequent reference to cross dressing really wasn't on the same subject.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:59 PM   #1735
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The ones with pouches to take fake blood so that the men could pretend to be menstruating
The diversity of the human mind never ceases to amaze me.


But it's not necessarily a good thing. Is it ok these days to say that some people are weirdos?
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:01 PM   #1736
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I can't remember the word I was told to google to see the rubber prosthetic vagina stuff, but it was a specific term used in that fetishistic community. My eyes were on stalks for the short time I looked at the web sites.

ETA: I remembered I DMed a friend on Twitter to let him see this stuff for himself, and the DM is still there. Here it is. Google the terms at your own risk.

Quote:
OMG, this is unbelievably gross and I don't know whether to suggest you google it or not, but I just did. Someone on a women's support discussion group on "trans widowhood" said look at the extent of the fetishism and the industry that caters for it, look up "vee strings by castle supplies" so I did. Also "rubber dolling". Only if you have a very strong stomach, I suggest.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:04 PM   #1737
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What you are talking about is changing the entire system and meaning of privacy. A real change that will have a real affect on some people to a varying degree.
I sort of think we're already several steps deep in "changing the system" at this point.

I just don't want the step we stop at and start demanding "defending the change" to be the step where my gender/sexuality is the one that's the dangerous one that has to be kept in control.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:05 PM   #1738
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And from these examples we can determine that transwomen are weirdo fetishists.

Such evidence is incontrovertible.

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Old 15th May 2018, 05:17 PM   #1739
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What you are talking about is changing the entire system and meaning of privacy. A real change that will have a real affect on some people to a varying degree.
Highly passable trans folks exist in increasing numbers and they quite probably use locker rooms and bathrooms in your community. The change is already here, you just have to deal with it somehow.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:12 AM   #1740
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And from these examples we can determine that transwomen are weirdo fetishists.

Such evidence is incontrovertible.

What is incontrovertible is that some men fantasize about being women, as reflected in their choice of pornographic literature, and, apparently, manufactured devices to assist in their fantasies.

What is also incontrovertible is that among people with paraphilic fantasies, a minority will try to actually experience those fantasies in real life, or will simulate them as closely as possible.

The inescapable conclusion from those incontrovertible facts is that some men who are weirdo fetishists could become transwomen as a way of enacting their fantasies, and it would be a very strange claim to assert that none of them do. In other words, among transwomen, it seems almost obvious that there must be some weirdo fetishists.

The extent of weirdo fetishism is a matter of some controversy, but denying that it exists at all seems rather strange to me.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:23 AM   #1741
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Probably not a scientific poll

https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/...78207807328256
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:57 AM   #1742
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No. That guy has other stuff up that shows clearly that he's an abusive entitled creep. He's one of the ones bullying lesbian women to have sex with his lady dick. His tweet is sick-making, and the array of sycophantic replies from the handmaidens is vomit-inducing.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:25 AM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What is incontrovertible is that some men fantasize about being women, as reflected in their choice of pornographic literature, and, apparently, manufactured devices to assist in their fantasies.

What is also incontrovertible is that among people with paraphilic fantasies, a minority will try to actually experience those fantasies in real life, or will simulate them as closely as possible.

The inescapable conclusion from those incontrovertible facts is that some men who are weirdo fetishists could become transwomen as a way of enacting their fantasies, and it would be a very strange claim to assert that none of them do. In other words, among transwomen, it seems almost obvious that there must be some weirdo fetishists.

The extent of weirdo fetishism is a matter of some controversy, but denying that it exists at all seems rather strange to me.
Problem is with the highlighted words, one needs to start at the beginning with evidence, lots of things could be . Now I don't have a view on the issue at the moment since no one has provided actual evidence of whether it is something that exists as a problem rather than literally a few people getting attention via the internet. The internet has a great ability to magnify "issues". Regarding the pornographic side - Rule 34 was established a long time ago!
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:34 AM   #1744
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The internet has a great ability to magnify "issues".
This is why I still maintain a very firm "Opinions that only exist on the internet don't count" rule.

I could spend 30 seconds on Tumblr and find one of those "Pansexual otherkin genderfluid 37th genders" types and parade them about to prove... nothing. I'm just not going to.

The question of... public private places (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc), and gendering in our language, and stuff like that are in the public sphere, being debated by real people not anonymous keyboard cause-tards. So that's worth discussing.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:55 AM   #1745
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Rubber dolling doesn't hold a candle to knipperdolling. (Don't look it up; such obscure German perversions are probably too shocking for anyone's delicate sensibilities.)
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:01 AM   #1746
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
He's one of the ones bullying lesbian women to have sex with his lady dick.
That sounds awful. What manner of coercion was used?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
His tweet is sick-making, and the array of sycophantic replies from the handmaidens is vomit-inducing.
The argument from subjective feelings of nausea shouldn't prove persuasive in a forum dedicated to skepticism.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:08 AM   #1747
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
<snip>

The extent of weirdo fetishism is a matter of some controversy, but denying that it exists at all seems rather strange to me.

And it would seem strange to me as well, if anyone had done that.

But the same question is presented as with Rolfe's "sizable cohort" of men who are merely pretending to be trans.

Just what is the extent of this weirdo fetishism?

And further, how is that relevant to the subject of actual trans people?

Do you think that these are some subset of people who are sincerely transitioning? Are they taking hormones? Seeking therapy? Presenting as female 24/7 in their daily lives? Are they risking and often losing their jobs? Their families? Their friends? Simply by coming out openly as trans?

If you believe that, what percentage of the trans community do you think they represent?

Why does it matter at all that such weirdo fetishists exist? It is only germane if you subscribe to the discredited Blanchard theories which argue that that is the only motive for men transitioning aside from repressed homosexuality.
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:05 PM   #1748
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And it would seem strange to me as well, if anyone had done that.
The source you quoted called autogynephilia "made up" by Blanchard.

Quote:
Just what is the extent of this weirdo fetishism?
Don't know.

Quote:
And further, how is that relevant to the subject of actual trans people?
The two are completely indistinguishable.

Quote:
Do you think that these are some subset of people who are sincerely transitioning? Are they taking hormones? Seeking therapy? Presenting as female 24/7 in their daily lives? Are they risking and often losing their jobs? Their families? Their friends? Simply by coming out openly as trans?
Yes. (Not all of them, and not all of the ones that are doing some of the above are doing all of the above.)


Quote:
If you believe that, what percentage of the trans community do you think they represent?
Don't know.

Quote:
Why does it matter at all that such weirdo fetishists exist? It is only germane if you subscribe to the discredited Blanchard theories which argue that that is the only motive for men transitioning aside from repressed homosexuality.
It seems relevant to me even if autogynephiles represent only a subset of those who are transitioning. Also, when referring to "transitioning" do we include those who are self-declaring as transgender, but who are not now or possibly never intend to have medical treatment (hormones or surgery) performed?
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:35 PM   #1749
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There are trans posters on this forum, if I recall, and there used to be more who just haven't been around in awhile. I would humbly suggest that the tossing around of phrases like "lady dick" be reconsidered with that in mind. Seriously, that is just cruel.

I'm putting this thread on ignore.


Quick ETA - I really think "handmaid" is every bit as offensive a label as Rolfe seems to find "cis." Purely derogatory. I don't agree with Blanchard's theories or find them well-supported, so I'm a handmaid who wants to be seen as oh-so-compliant. Yeah, that's mighty offensive to me.

Does my opinion count, or just lesbians'?

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Old 16th May 2018, 01:05 PM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The source you quoted called autogynephilia "made up" by Blanchard.

<snip>

The term "autogynephilia" was quite literally "made up" by Blanchard. As in, he coined the term. It did not exist prior to his invention of it.

Then he used it as an umbrella description for a whole host of paraphilias he decided were somehow essential to the motives of people with gender dysphoria.

There are reasons his work is discounted by pretty much all other professionals in the field. This is among them.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:28 PM   #1751
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What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:19 PM   #1752
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?

It has none. It never did.

It does, however, remain the irrepressible poster child of pop psychology for those who want to nurture their prejudices against transwomen.

Much the same way that anti-vaxers tend to cling to Andrew Wakefield, but with less actual evidence.
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:19 PM   #1753
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
Looks like most of what I would have said in response to many points has already been said since I was last in the thread, so forgive me skipping all those parts.

But as a scientifically valid hypothesis? Basically none. The term itself is accepted as descriptive, but the hypothesis behind it is of basically no utility to the point of being unfalsifiable.

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but as Blanchard defines it, the term is basically a tautology.

The definition, (a simplified version being 'having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman') as applied by Blanchard in his study would not only apply to trans women, but most cis women as well. This is because both groups see themselves as women, and thus imagine themselves as women in sexual fantasies. In a small study (just as valid as Blanchard's own), it was shown that 93% of cis women surveyed meet the definition of having autogynephilia.

Oddly it turns out that Blanchard and his supporters don't apply this to trans men because...reasons? About his including of 'autoandrophilia' Blanchard said “I proposed it simply in order not to be accused of sexism.”

For some reason the existence of some trans people who believe his hypothesis validates it in eyes of proponents, but cis women who don't support it (or are critical of those who want trans exclusion) are 'handmaidens'. Again, because, 'reasons'.
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Old 16th May 2018, 08:04 PM   #1754
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
I think you are asking about the Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence typology, of which autogynephilia is an aspect.

It's in that curious corner of "barely and quite possibly not" scientific along with other sexology typologies. Those above, and a few other like Cantor, are proponents. Serrano and Moser published probably the most famous rebuttals in 2010. It's still one of those small and young fields where "figures" dominate.

I think Veale is most accurate in her assessment, which is summarized here:

Quote:
In other words: You may perfectly well divide a group transgender male bodied persons and transsexual women into two parts based on sexual orientation or early/late onset. Doing so will reveal some interesting patterns, some of them being related to sexual arousal associated with imagining oneself as a woman, others related to varying enthusiasm for transgender erotica.

But none of these differences are mutually exclusive. There are androphilic crossdreamers, as well as gynephilic trans women who find little fascination in transgender erotica. This means that there must be other factors than sexual orientation that explain why two such groupings appear. Veale argues that these differences are caused by different social contexts and not by sexual orientation.
Linky.

Early/late onset seems to be more used in recent years, but technically we could use a number of different aspects to distinguish the observed patterns, including sexual orientation or autogynephilia, but they can be more "dimensional" or mixed than "categorical". Each offers explanations for why one type seems predominant in different societies. Veale categorizes homosexual/autogynephilic as classical/non-classical in her Identity‐Defense Model.
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Old 16th May 2018, 08:25 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The definition, (a simplified version being 'having erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman') as applied by Blanchard in his study would not only apply to trans women, but most cis women as well. This is because both groups see themselves as women, and thus imagine themselves as women in sexual fantasies. In a small study (just as valid as Blanchard's own), it was shown that 93% of cis women surveyed meet the definition of having autogynephilia.

Oddly it turns out that Blanchard and his supporters don't apply this to trans men because...reasons?
That isn't an accurate summary of the debate. The reasons are in the comment that was published. And then Moser commented back. Veale similarly did a modified survey. We're dealing with people making modified non-validated scales based off of non-validated scales with no way of knowing if they are supposed to be measuring the same thing. I don't put much weight in this particular aspect of the debate, even though it is the most tempting as a quick fix.
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Old 16th May 2018, 08:53 PM   #1756
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
That isn't an accurate summary of the debate. The reasons are in the comment that was published. And then Moser commented back.
I don't see what part of what I said was inaccurate. Someone disputes if it was analogous, and the author disputes that dispute. What does that have to do with what I said?

Quote:
Veale similarly did a modified survey. We're dealing with people making modified non-validated scales based off of non-validated scales with no way of knowing if they are supposed to be measuring the same thing. I don't put much weight in this particular aspect of the debate, even though it is the most tempting as a quick fix.
I agree with you there. I think perhaps you're taking my 'just as valid' statement to mean I think either was, but I don't actually think they had much utility in either.

It does also have the 'false dichotomy' aspect going, as your other post points out. Something possibly being a factor doesn't rule out other factors.
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Old 17th May 2018, 03:49 AM   #1757
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
The same as the scientific status of the gender identity hypothesis.
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Old 17th May 2018, 05:13 AM   #1758
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
It's complicated. TB's response was pretty good.

I don't have time to investigate it deeply right at the moment, but the controversy surrounding it seems fascinating. I would be particularly interested in looking into the controversy surrounding a woman named Alice Dreger, a researcher whose interest was in intersexed individuals, which led her to be a strong advocate for intersexed support. Strange as it may seem, though, this actually led her to take positions which set her at odds with trans-rights orthodoxies of the moment, which in turn led her to be vilified and attacked, with career consequences.

With no more information than I have on the subject, I can't go into too much detail, but it looks like a fascinating story. At this point, having read just a tiny bit on the subject, I'm not even confident that Blanchard's work and conclusions are even properly described by his opponents. A;so, Blanchard himself doesn't even appear to be a major player in the argument. He wrote his seminal paper in 1989, and I didn't see a whole lot of current references to him. It is those that cited his work, and amplified on it, that seem to be the target of most of the criticism.
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Old 17th May 2018, 07:47 AM   #1759
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the scientific status of the autogynephelia hypothesis at present?
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The same as the scientific status of the gender identity hypothesis.
Can anyone think of a well-designed study (hypothetical or actual) which would serve to falsify one of these two hypotheses and perhaps help validate the other one?

As a straight cis man, I have some trouble wrapping my head around what it might be like to be aroused by the idea of myself as a woman. I'm sort of at a loss as to how that sort of thing would be put to the test, aside from the generally unreliable process of self-reporting.

That said, I would like to see the same battery of diagnostic indicators blindly administered to both transwomen and ciswomen, to see what patterns emerge, if any. So far as I can tell, no one has tried this yet.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I would be particularly interested in looking into the controversy surrounding a woman named Alice Dreger, a researcher whose interest was in intersexed individuals, which led her to be a strong advocate for intersexed support. Strange as it may seem, though, this actually led her to take positions which set her at odds with trans-rights orthodoxies of the moment, which in turn led her to be vilified and attacked, with career consequences.
I'm something of a fan of Alice Dreger.

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Old 17th May 2018, 08:24 AM   #1760
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
As a straight cis man, I have some trouble wrapping my head around what it might be like to be aroused by the idea of myself as a woman.
And as a bisexual male, I have some trouble wrapping my head around what it might be like to have a gender identity. I can recognize social forces gendering people (basically patriarchy) but I have no idea what it would mean to be either trans or cis other than by internalizing that a bit too much. Like how people with a strong national identity have internalized this nation thing a bit too much.

Quote:
I'm sort of at a loss as to how that sort of thing would be put to the test, aside from the generally unreliable process of self-reporting.
I agree.

Quote:
That said, I would like to see the same battery of diagnostic indicators blindly administered to both transwomen and ciswomen, to see what patterns emerge, if any. So far as I can tell, no one has tried this yet.
And to women who are neither trans nor cis. If you were researching nationalism you also wouldn't restrict testing to only staunch nationalists (those with a pronounced national identity), so why do it with gender.
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