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Old 9th April 2018, 04:08 PM   #161
cullennz
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In some contexts, yes it does. This is especially true in discussions like this one, where comparing the groups comes up.
That isn't quite true though is it

You can have woman for just a normal woman and add whatever else you want at the start to specify others
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:25 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, I give up. Who said anything about reproductive status?
No one. That's why he said it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:55 PM   #163
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Another good read. Though I have little hope that the men's rights dudebros of this parish will actually try to get their heads round how this impacts actual women (as opposed to men who wish they were women, who are getting everything they want).

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...o-many-rights/

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Old 9th April 2018, 05:14 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Another good read. Though I have little hope that the men's rights dudebros of this parish will actually try to get their heads round how this impacts actual women (as opposed to men who wish they were women, who are getting everything they want).

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...o-many-rights/

http://www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/saxby.jpg
More hysterical speculation. You DO realize that the MRA's are closely aligned with the alt-right wrt to transgenders and allowing transgenders to "get everything they want" doesn't seem to be an essential component of their, decidedly, chaotic game plan?
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:27 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
More hysterical speculation. You DO realize that the MRA's are closely aligned with the alt-right wrt to transgenders and allowing transgenders to "get everything they want" doesn't seem to be an essential component of their, decidedly, chaotic game plan?
I think you're both wrong lol.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:37 PM   #166
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"I think the Widget is round."
"I think the Widget is more oblong."
"Want to have a reasonable discussion about it?"
"Sure"
"Well... wait what's that?"

*Door is kicked open*
"WHATABOUT ABOUT THE CRAZIES WHO THINK IT'S SQUARE!"
"OH YEAH SMART GUY WHATABOUT THE CRAZIES WHO THINK IT'S A TRIANGLE? I GUESS YOU JUST AREN'T GOING TO TAKE ABOUT THAT!"
"WIDGETS ARE LIBERAL CONSPIRACIES FROM GEORGE SOROS!"
"WIDGETS ARE THE FAULT OF THE JEWS!"
"WHAT ABOUT HER E-MAILS?"
"PROVE TO ME THAT WIDGETS EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE!"
*Herd of rhino sound, screams of the damned, dueling banjos played on a didgeridoos and bagpipes*

"Do you want to keep talking about..."
"No."
"Me either.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:40 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
More hysterical speculation. You DO realize that the MRA's are closely aligned with the alt-right wrt to transgenders and allowing transgenders to "get everything they want" doesn't seem to be an essential component of their, decidedly, chaotic game plan?
Just as an aside, in ten years I have never heard anyone talk about "men's rights activists" except on this forum.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:50 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Just as an aside, in ten years I have never heard anyone talk about "men's rights activists" except on this forum.
Me neither. Or SJW's. We seem to be having an explosion of both and soon dogs and cats will be living together.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:53 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I think the Widget is round."
"I think the Widget is more oblong."
"Want to have a reasonable discussion about it?"
"Sure"
"Well... wait what's that?"

*Door is kicked open*
"WHATABOUT ABOUT THE CRAZIES WHO THINK IT'S SQUARE!"
"OH YEAH SMART GUY WHATABOUT THE CRAZIES WHO THINK IT'S A TRIANGLE? I GUESS YOU JUST AREN'T GOING TO TAKE ABOUT THAT!"
"WIDGETS ARE LIBERAL CONSPIRACIES FROM GEORGE SOROS!"
"WIDGETS ARE THE FAULT OF THE JEWS!"
"WHAT ABOUT HER E-MAILS?"
"PROVE TO ME THAT WIDGETS EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE!"
*Herd of rhino sound, screams of the damned, dueling banjos played on a didgeridoos and bagpipes*

"Do you want to keep talking about..."
"No."
"Me either.
Hey, you should arrange this into a song somehow and make it the ISF anthem.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:53 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Me neither. Or SJW's. We seem to be having an explosion of both and soon dogs and cats will be living together.
I've heard of SJWs in other places.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:53 PM   #171
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I've said it before. "Groups" that consist only of people who are A) primarily online and B) primarily anonymous don't count. They don't get a seat at the table and don't get to be used as boogeymen examples in it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:54 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hey, you should arrange this into a song somehow and make it the ISF anthem.
I'm pretty sure I could get a cover of Dueling Banjos with a Didgeridoo and a Bagpipe at least on the Dance Charts in Europe.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:03 PM   #173
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And that's why I'm trying to at least make an attempt to keep this discussion on the level of actual opinions I've seen actual real flesh and blood humans make in serious context.

No I've never encountered a "I'M A PANSEXUAL GENDER FLUID OTHERKIN QUEER TRANSGENDER!" Tumblr-warrior in real life so I'm not going to strawman the discussion into that.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:08 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That isn't quite true though is it

You can have woman for just a normal woman and add whatever else you want at the start to specify others
Why? That's unnecessarily confusing. Switching between talking about the overall group and comparing subsets is much, much easier with adequate language tools.

Cis woman is not some insult.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:09 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Another good read. Though I have little hope that the men's rights dudebros of this parish will actually try to get their heads round how this impacts actual women (as opposed to men who wish they were women, who are getting everything they want).

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...o-many-rights/

http://www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/saxby.jpg
Ok, what?
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:17 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Why? That's unnecessarily confusing. Switching between talking about the overall group and comparing subsets is much, much easier with adequate language tools.

Cis woman is not some insult.
Women aren't a subset of women

They are women

Call everyone who isn't a woman what ever you like

Dudes who feel like they are a woman and transitioning to look like a women "Transwomen"

Dudes who feel like they are a woman not transitioning......

Yadda yadda yadda
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 9th April 2018 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:50 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Women aren't a subset of women

They are women

Call everyone who isn't a woman what ever you like

Dudes who feel like they are a woman and transitioning to look like a women "Transwomen"

Dudes who feel like they are a woman not transitioning......

Yadda yadda yadda
Cis women are a subset of women.
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Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:51 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Cis women are a subset of women.
Woman - "female human"

What does the cis mean?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 9th April 2018 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:55 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Woman - "female human"

What does the cis mean?
'The same as'.
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Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Just as an aside, in ten years I have never heard anyone talk about "men's rights activists" except on this forum.
Reddit.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:12 PM   #181
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MRAs have been trolling feminism-centric areas of the web since forever.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:59 PM   #182
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MRA isn't a position that's socially acceptable in society. Even the moderate groups who try to remain relatively neutral on feminism (which arguably stands quite clearly in opposition to men in many realms) are labeled misogynists, dead-beats, etc.

CAFE (Canadian Association for Equality - see https://www.gofundme.com/abusedmenshelter) is an example in Canada of a (mostly family-related) MRM group.

SJWs mostly appear at universities but they certainly exist in real life. The MRM stays silent and anonymous, for the most part, though they do exist in real life as well.


re clarifying terms for women

I don't understand the hostility to using additional terminology to specify subsets of groups. I'm not suggesting we say "ciswomen" to refer to those of the female sex who also identify as women EVERY DAY in all situations (I don't think anyone but extremists suggest this). Of course it has functional use when talking about transgender folk and related topics.

We've established that it's a "real thing" so why all the fuss? Why pretend that gender == sex? (yes I know it maps onto sex correctly 99%+ of the time but we're talking about the <1% of the time)

Last edited by pharphis; 9th April 2018 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:02 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'The same as'.
You can't have a subset of a group which is everyone who is the group.

You can have subsets of another group who want to be part of the first group, but can't be.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:03 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You can't have a subset of a group which is everyone who is the group.

You can have subsets of another group who want to be part of the first group, but can't be.
The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".
Fair point

Females transitioning to males are a subset of the other group,
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #186
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Ie

Women

Men

And non conforming to birth (with subsets)
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:21 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
The problem is you're asserting that "female" is the entire set of "women".
Sorry.

Missed read your post.

They are

Women - "female human"
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:41 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
MRAs have been trolling feminism-centric areas of the web since forever.
Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:58 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.
Mead, just because you haven't met one irl doesn't mean anything at all. Trolling is their online behavior, but their opinions are probably truly internalized and just dressed down when they're needling women for fun online, pretending to be a supporter who just think we women need to adjust our thinking and MO to be more "effective" or whatever.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:52 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Mead, just because you haven't met one irl doesn't mean anything at all. Trolling is their online behavior, but their opinions are probably truly internalized and just dressed down when they're needling women for fun online, pretending to be a supporter who just think we women need to adjust our thinking and MO to be more "effective" or whatever.
Edit: Sorry

Ignore that. Worked it out. Just me being a thickey
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 10th April 2018 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:06 AM   #191
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Meeting hardliner advocates IRL or not isn't really a useful metric of much in my book. I mean, in general there is a certain amount of self-sorting and not freely volunteering of information that it is difficult to say anything about the real world with that knowledge. For example, I can't say I've met an NRA member.

But more broadly, advocates don't need to be large, visible groups in our day to day lives to set the agenda or frame mainstream debate. For example, certain US States now allow you to change your birth certificate and State IDs to "X" for "non-binary". Or some of their ideas that they are defending can have widespread cultural acceptance already, as I suspect is more of the case with the "MRA".
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:43 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Woman - "female human"

What does the cis mean?
Haven't you been explained exactly what it means in excruciating detail last year?
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:45 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Meeting hardliner advocates IRL or not isn't really a useful metric of much in my book. I mean, in general there is a certain amount of self-sorting and not freely volunteering of information that it is difficult to say anything about the real world with that knowledge. For example, I can't say I've met an NRA member.

But more broadly, advocates don't need to be large, visible groups in our day to day lives to set the agenda or frame mainstream debate. For example, certain US States now allow you to change your birth certificate and State IDs to "X" for "non-binary". Or some of their ideas that they are defending can have widespread cultural acceptance already, as I suspect is more of the case with the "MRA".
I havent meet any mens right activists but have seen a few via youtube.

I have yet to see any preaching for the trame people particularly
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 10th April 2018 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:58 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem when you "talk past" someone in certain situations that gets you branded a hateful cislord bigot.

I've literally had people; otherwise nice smart reasonable people, say that "misgendering someone" is pretty much on the same level as a slur and my entire Facebook feed has been awash in the last week with the report that not using a person's preferred pronoun is a leading cause of suicide.

So yeah... can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.
Well when parents bully their trans kids like that it is a serious issue. The thing is that misgendering someone by mistake and by harassment is entirely different.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:00 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*Twilight Zone theme plays in the background*

Ok, I give up. Who said anything about reproductive status?
That is what biological sex is. It makes the easiest way to divide everyone into groups by their own biology. It gets rid of all those annoying complicated cases where you get mixed sex signals because most of them are sterile and you don't have to worry about androgen insensitive men being mistaken for real women and so on.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:03 AM   #196
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I've always managed to get by with female, male, various, miscellaneous and ?.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:04 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sure.

But they are practically non-existent. I've never met one. I've never seen them mentioned in mainstream media. "Trolling" is probably the exactly correct word, because a lot of them are just pretending, trying to get a reaction.


I have heard the term "SJW" outside of the internet. I've met trans people and trans rights activists. But these MRAs? Haven't seen hide nor hair of them. They can't be a significant force in the world.
I have never met a alt right person either, so clearly the alt right does not really exist.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:11 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Cis women are a subset of women.

This term is considered to be grossly offensive by a large number of women. Probably by most women who have figured out what it means (or actually heard it used). To continue to insist on using it after this has been explained is even more grossly offensive. Not born with external genitalia which were recognised as female, and raised as a girl? Not a woman.

Find other words for people who are otherwise described, and don't erase our identity by appropriating our actual name.

Would you continue to use a derogatory term for an ethnic group after it had been explained to you that many members of that group considered it to be extremely offensive? No? Then stoppit.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 10th April 2018 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:13 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
More hysterical speculation. You DO realize that the MRA's are closely aligned with the alt-right wrt to transgenders and allowing transgenders to "get everything they want" doesn't seem to be an essential component of their, decidedly, chaotic game plan?

You didn't actually click on the link and read the article, did you?
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:16 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This term is considered to be grossly offensive by a large number of women. Probably by most women who have figured out what it means (or actually heard it used). To continue to insist on using it after this has been explained is even more grossly offensive. Not born with external genitalia which were recognised as female, and raised as a girl? Not a woman.

Find other words for people who are otherwise described, and don't erase our identity by appropriating our actual name.

Would you continue to use a derogatory term for an ethnic group after it had been explained to you that many members of that group considered it to be extremely offensive? No? Then stoppit.
Pardon my ignorance but, where has it (cis) been shown to be offensive?
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