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Old 10th April 2018, 07:52 AM   #241
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Once again, humans are utterly confused by the difference between using of language to define things in the real world, and using of language to invent things that don't exist in the real world.
The humans are confusing, aren't they?
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:52 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Does anybody ever even complain about "straight"?
I've heard the occasional homophobe complain about it, but it's pretty rare.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:55 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I've heard the occasional homophobe complain about it, but it's pretty rare.
But break out the word "cis" and it's all clutching of pearls (not to mention using of language).
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:55 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This term is considered to be grossly offensive by a large number of women. Probably by most women who have figured out what it means (or actually heard it used). To continue to insist on using it after this has been explained is even more grossly offensive. Not born with external genitalia which were recognised as female, and raised as a girl? Not a woman.

Find other words for people who are otherwise described, and don't erase our identity by appropriating our actual name.

Would you continue to use a derogatory term for an ethnic group after it had been explained to you that many members of that group considered it to be extremely offensive? No? Then stoppit.
Cis woman is a perfectly valid term, no matter how trans-excluding feminists want to twist the language in order to use old tactics of being the victimized, marginalized group against a group that they are currently victimizing and marginalizing.

I do in fact use terms for ethnic groups that many members claim they consider grossly offensive; black and African American. Most however, don't. This is the OVERWHELMING case with cis woman as well.

This is a basic fact that every TERF and other trans-excluding 'woman's' group fails to integrate; you do not own womanhood. You do not speak for womanhood. It is not a weapon you can swing against the other. This fear isn't of losing 'what they've worked for', it's for losing control and power. It's the sad hanging on to power that was fought for at first for noble goals, but power does what power does. 'Erase your identity' only works if one believes the markedly unfeminist idea that what is between your legs defines you as a person. What are you afraid of losing? From you last article, it looks like you want to reject women from being given shelter from violence because they're trans women, even though trans women are at greater risk of violence than cis women. How very kind of you.

Be grossly offended. Being offended doesn't make you right. I'll continue to offend you just like I continue to grossly offend radical Christians by denying a belief in any god, just like I'll grossly offend Trump supporters by opposing his harms, just like I'll grossly offend anti-vaxers with scientific facts.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:56 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Look at it this way. Let's look at once common but slightly older and archiac term that has mostly fallen out of use... crossdresser. A crossdresser was (is, I'm sure the subculture still exists in some context) a person who preferred to wear the clothing of the other gender.

See the problem? For that concept to have any meaning at all you have to agree that men and women are required by some level; social, legal, whatever to wear different clothing. If you don't, if you think men should be able to wear skirts and women to wear to wear pants and so forth... the concept stops being meaningful.
Very good point. And that may in fact be the reason why you don't hear much about crossdressers in today's debates. You don't see any crossdresser cultural groups intervening in the current discussion. It's kinda out of fashion culturally. That was back then, when there was no debate about the existence of two genders, so it made sense. But as you correctly point out, to validate crossdressing, you have to validate the fact that there are differences between how men and women dress.

The paradox still exists today, though, because transgender people do the same thing: They transform physically and dress like the opposite sex. So they're admitting that there's an opposite sex. Though there are also transgender people who are only transgender "in their soul" so to speak. While they look like their "original" sex, they claim to be the other one, because that's how they feel.

And that's all fine, by the way. Adults are free to do whatever they want. Just don't act like there aren't clear differences between males and females. Because if there were actually zero differences, then the whole concept of transgender and pretty much, the whole discussion, would be moot.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The humans are confusing, aren't they?
Confusing and confused
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:00 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
It has multiple usages. According to a quick google etymology search it means "across" in latin, which in astrological context apparently means "beyond". Makes sense to me. Even for gender it makes sense as "beyond sex" ie different than just one's sex.

cis IS a pointless modifier 99% of the time, because almost all discussions about men and women aren't about making such a distinction. Sometimes, the distinction is necessary and having a convenient, easy-to-understand (at least to anyone who took high school chemistry) label for this is ideal.
I just did it in a sentence from my last post.

"From you last article, it looks like you want to reject women from being given shelter from violence because they're trans women, even though trans women are at greater risk of violence than cis women."

It's much more clear than otherwise. The entire argument against its use isn't on language grounds really, it's all about denying that trans women are women.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:04 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not any more than "right-handed" is superfluous just becausae 90% of humans are rightcis-handed. It just has a more limited use.
FTFY
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:10 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. I know. But across-gender, beyond-gender, on-the-other-side-of-gender all make absolutely no sense (I didn't see the stand-alone 'other' while flipping through definitions for trans).
Makes sense to me, though.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:17 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
entire argument against its use isn't on language grounds really, it's all about denying that trans women are women.
Indeed. That's it.


It's all about who can claim to be a woman, and for what purpose.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:19 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Once again, humans are utterly confused by the difference between using of language to define things in the real world, and using of language to invent things that don't exist in the real world.
*Taps the side of my nose.*

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Old 10th April 2018, 08:20 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What do you mean?
Men are modified females. They were all females until testosterone was introduced and modified them.

Quote:
Not any more than "right-handed" is superfluous just becausae 90% of humans are right-handed. It just has a more limited use.
Handed means nothing. If you say "I am handed" no one knows what you are talking about. If you say "I am female" everyone knows. Everyone is born male or female and some spend a certain amount of time transitioning Modifying themselves) to the other gender so they are called transgender. In my opinion, once they get there they are just that gender and no longer trans. I can be on a trans-continental trip but once I get there the trip is over and I am just on the other side of the continent.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Men are modified females. They were all females until testosterone was introduced and modified them.
Oh Jesus Christ...

And how and why exactly should that affect anything at all? In what possible real world, day to day context should that impact anything being discussing about sexual and gender roles and relationship in real life?
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:23 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The entire argument against its use isn't on language grounds really, it's all about denying that trans women are women.
Women ARE women no matter how they got there. The labels "trans" and "cis" are what separates them.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:26 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh Jesus Christ...

And how and why exactly should that affect anything at all? In what possible real world, day to day context should that impact anything being discussing about sexual and gender roles and relationship in real life?
Who said it affects anything? It is clarification of a point I made about labels that I was asked to give.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:27 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Men are modified females. They were all females until testosterone was introduced and modified them.
What in the blue hell are you talking about? Children are not all females, and neither are foetuses at any point of their development. Children are already differentiated, and foetuses start halfway before a certain point.

Quote:
Handed means nothing. If you say "I am handed" no one knows what you are talking about. If you say "I am female" everyone knows.
I didn't say anything about "handed". How are you missing my point so utterly? The point is that if you want to refer to right-handed people specifically, we have a term for that even though most people are right-handed. The English language could very easily have not had any term for right-handed people but one for left-handed people, but having one for both is useful when you want to know which hand you favour. This isn't rocket science.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Who said it affects anything? It is clarification of a point I made about labels that I was asked to give.
And this is labels and distinctions for the sake of labels and distinctions, not for clarity or inclusion.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:30 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I agree with you. Only one needs a modifier and one already exists, "trans." Cis is superfluous.
Only if you refuse to call trans women women and trans men men. It is just like this BS heterosexual as if that is a real thing, you have normal people and gays.

100 Years ago no one was heterosexual it is a silly meaningless term.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:31 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Would you say the same thing about "straight" (meaning heterosexual)?

Isn't the only modifier we need the word "gay"? Why do we need a modifier for the rest of us?
Exactly there are normal people and gays. Simple. You are either a man or a gay man. Straight and heterosexual are totally meaningless and have no role in discussions of sexuality.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:33 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I've heard the occasional homophobe complain about it, but it's pretty rare.
Most likely because it has been around long enough that they are not claiming that they are making things that don't exist up with language.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:35 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What in the blue hell are you talking about? Children are not all females, and neither are foetuses at any point of their development. Children are already differentiated, and foetuses start halfway before a certain point.
Looks like you're so late to the party on this topic, it's firing up again. LOL

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...-become-female

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For decades, females have been considered the “default” sex in mammals. The new research overturns that idea, showing that making female reproductive organs is an active process that involves dismantling a primitive male tissue called the Wolffian duct.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:36 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Very good point. And that may in fact be the reason why you don't hear much about crossdressers in today's debates. You don't see any crossdresser cultural groups intervening in the current discussion. It's kinda out of fashion culturally. That was back then, when there was no debate about the existence of two genders, so it made sense. But as you correctly point out, to validate crossdressing, you have to validate the fact that there are differences between how men and women dress.
Depends on the group. Cross dressing as day to day activity would fit into gender queer / gender non conforming. Cross dressing as a sexual act isn't what anyone is talking about here except for Rolfe.

So it is certainly related to this whole issue but not in the way you are implying.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:38 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
you do not own womanhood. You do not speak for womanhood.
We kinda do, actually.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:40 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's much more clear than otherwise. The entire argument against its use isn't on language grounds really, it's all about denying that trans women are women.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:41 AM   #265
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Hmmm maybe we need to include photos of your genitals as well as your face on you ID think that would help resolve this?
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:47 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Very good point. And that may in fact be the reason why you don't hear much about crossdressers in today's debates. You don't see any crossdresser cultural groups intervening in the current discussion. It's kinda out of fashion culturally. That was back then, when there was no debate about the existence of two genders, so it made sense. But as you correctly point out, to validate crossdressing, you have to validate the fact that there are differences between how men and women dress.

The paradox still exists today, though, because transgender people do the same thing: They transform physically and dress like the opposite sex. So they're admitting that there's an opposite sex. Though there are also transgender people who are only transgender "in their soul" so to speak. While they look like their "original" sex, they claim to be the other one, because that's how they feel.

And that's all fine, by the way. Adults are free to do whatever they want. Just don't act like there aren't clear differences between males and females. Because if there were actually zero differences, then the whole concept of transgender and pretty much, the whole discussion, would be moot.
"Transvestite" is Latin for cross-dresser (more or less). I wonder why the shift occurred?

I have vague memories of people on daytime TV during the early 90's claiming that their crossdressing was more than some fun, kinky thing, and there was a "woman trapped in a man's body" aspect going on.

It would be interesting to see when and where gender was substituted for dressing, and originally why.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:55 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Transvestite" is Latin for cross-dresser (more or less). I wonder why the shift occurred?

I have vague memories of people on daytime TV during the early 90's claiming that their crossdressing was more than some fun, kinky thing, and there was a "woman trapped in a man's body" aspect going on.

It would be interesting to see when and where gender was substituted for dressing, and originally why.
It is because clothing is highly gendered, so the clothes one wears is an expression of gender. More commonly such individuals would be gender queer or gender non conforming in more modern terminology except when it is a sexual fetish.

Of course the lowering of the stigma on being transgender and so more people are transitioning in their entire lives instead of only part of it.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:56 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The entire argument against its use isn't on language grounds really, it's all about denying that trans women are women.
How do you define "woman"? That's kind of important at this point, if you want to determine if they're right or not.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How do you define "woman"? That's kind of important at this point, if you want to determine if they're right or not.
I'm thinking how "woman" is defined depends (or should depend) on context. "Women's athletics" probably should be cis-exclusive, whereas "women's rights" should generally remain trans-inclusive.

(Also, that's an example of why I don't find cis offensive, or some covertly marginalizing modifier by nature.)
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmmm maybe we need to include photos of your genitals as well as your face on you ID think that would help resolve this?
You could just write 'innie' or 'outie'
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:01 AM   #271
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If you're a "Man trapped in a woman's body" you have, by definition, think there are meaningful non-biological differences between men and women are the whole thing is a distinction without difference and those always, always have ulterior motives.

Every time we have this discussion I ask, beg, plead somebody, anybody to answer this question and they never do.

Unless you place external standards on what men and women are and can do outside of their biological difference the statement that "A Woman trapped in a Man's Body" is in any way meaningfully distinct from "A Man" makes no sense.

What is the difference? A real, meaningful difference. What should a "Man trapped in a Woman's body" be able to do that "A Man" can't?

When I met a biological male and he tells me "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" what do I do differently? What do I say or do differently? What am I required to acknowledge or change?

I already don't treat men and women differently on the scale and in the context we're discussing which I distinctly being told that was the thing I had to do at one point in the not too distant past and now I'm supposed to... I honestly don't know.

What is the difference? Somebody give a straight answer that doesn't boil down to "It's different because they say it is different."

Because not to long ago I thought all those non-biological differences that a society put on men and women were bad things that we were trying to make go away and I wake up one morning and they've all been put back in just so people feel special and unique about subverting them.

The dynamic being created can't be "Men and women should be treated equally... except when they identify as the other gender and then they must be treated under the old standards of gender roles, just reversed."

Standards can't be evil when nominally applied but celebrated when reversed. That's not how reality works.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:05 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm thinking how "woman" is defined depends (or should depend) on context.
Thing is, we can usually tell really easily who's a woman. It's the edge cases that are problematic, but they don't necessarily require a change in definitions.

However, the reason we can tell at a glance is that we're looking at a number of characteristics and our brains do the calculations. If the definition is, say, XX chromosomes, it might not translate well into what we see directly.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:07 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
...When I met a biological male and he tells me "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" what do I do differently?...
Back away slowly?
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:08 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because not to long ago I thought all those non-biological differences that a society put on men and women were bad things that we were trying to make go away and I wake up one morning and they've all been put back in just so people feel special and unique about subverting them.

The dynamic being created can't be "Men and women should be treated equally... except when they identify as the other gender and then they must be treated under the old standards of gender roles, just reversed."

Standards can't be evil when nominally applied but celebrated when reversed. That's not how reality works.
Maybe but of course a man who wears dresses and identifies as a man is different than a trans woman. If you are arguing we are at the time when being highly unique in your gender expression is not an issue, then frankly you are wrong. But that is still separate from gender identity.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #275
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*preparing to be accused of transphobia*

Doesn't being trans amount to believing that you are something that you physically are not? I sympathize with those that do, its got to be brutal. But if I thought I was something I physically was not...say, a dolphin or a Windsor backed chair...would there be an inclusive socially and politically correct term like cisdolphin to differentiate?
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:18 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Thing is, we can usually tell really easily who's a woman. It's the edge cases that are problematic, but they don't necessarily require a change in definitions.

However, the reason we can tell at a glance is that we're looking at a number of characteristics and our brains do the calculations. If the definition is, say, XX chromosomes, it might not translate well into what we see directly.
It's not really the edge cases that bother me - it's really stuff like women's sports, women's health, etc that legitimately does seem to be being "encroached upon" in destructive ways which has been flying under the radar to some extent, because most feminists of all orientations really, truly don't want to be bigots.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:18 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Maybe but of course a man who wears dresses and identifies as a man is different than a trans woman. If you are arguing we are at the time when being highly unique in your gender expression is not an issue, then frankly you are wrong. But that is still separate from gender identity.
If the whole gender identify thing was being presented as some sort of... transitional phase, a thing for people do while waiting on gender roles to go away you might have a point but that's certainly not what we have.

Nothing in any version of the gender identify movement has it ever been presented in any context as "temporary."
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:25 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*preparing to be accused of transphobia*

Doesn't being trans amount to believing that you are something that you physically are not? I sympathize with those that do, its got to be brutal. But if I thought I was something I physically was not...say, a dolphin or a Windsor backed chair...would there be an inclusive socially and politically correct term like cisdolphin to differentiate?
Gender really does have a lot to do with what "social space" you occupy in the world. It's not as strict as it was 50 years ago, but it is still "a thing", for better or for worse. So, no, I definitely don't just see transgenderism as a delusion like thinking you're a dolphin.
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Last edited by kellyb; 10th April 2018 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:31 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*preparing to be accused of transphobia*

Doesn't being trans amount to believing that you are something that you physically are not? I sympathize with those that do, its got to be brutal. But if I thought I was something I physically was not...say, a dolphin or a Windsor backed chair...would there be an inclusive socially and politically correct term like cisdolphin to differentiate?
No. Trans people really do understand what their bodies are. But they also know what they feel their bodies should be. Their mental idea of this is my body does not match their physical one. This is not something that in general is treated with disdain when someone tries to get their body to fit their body image. Like those "unnecessary" breast reconstruction after mastectomy for women? Why bother with those fake unnatural breasts? Who are they trying to fool? Why do women who have cancer deserve tits but women who did not naturally grow them do not?
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:32 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Gender really does have a lot to do with what "social space" you occupy in the world. It's not as strict as it was 50 years ago, but it is still "a thing", for better or for worse. So, no, I definitely don't just see transgenderism as a delusion like thinking you're a dolphin.
I'm not trying to be obtuse. Thinking you are a woman when you are physically a male is some sort of crossed wire. Yes, a dolphin is being hyperbolic, but all this talk of gender inclusivity seems to gloss over that. That's why I see the gender distinction as often really meaning sex; we don't have any evidence of being trapped in wrong bodies. Its a hardwiring problem regarding self identification.
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