IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags acromegaly , diabetes , sugar

Reply
Old 3rd May 2018, 02:24 PM   #41
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,208
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you kept to a pre-agricultural diet you would most likely not develop any Diabetes symptoms. Hence there was no pressure to remove the mutation from the gene pool.
Hmmm. Raw red deer and hippopotamii, with berries and mushrooms thrown in.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd May 2018, 04:19 PM   #42
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,540
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hmmm. Raw red deer and hippopotamii, with berries and mushrooms thrown in.
I think one hippopotamus per meal should suffice.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd May 2018, 07:35 PM   #43
rustypouch
Philosopher
 
rustypouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,742
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Cart/horse? With all of those soft tissue problems, is it any wonder I don't feel like running a marathin? I did do much better when gobbling Ibuprofen, but kidney limitations took that off the table. And I think I left kidney disease off the list .Nah, it's a result of a genetic variation. Genes is why so few people manage to actually lose weight, and even fewer can keep it off. And see post 6 above, after a whole year only half of the subjects managed to get off the meds.

Also same post link, 150 genes related to diabetes, doesn't matter. It's not quantity, it's quality. Hmmm, I wonder which genes the two groups had? Controlled w/ d&e, not controllable with d&e? The data could show a uselessness to your advise for half the patients?

Genes effect EVERYTHING- mood, intellect, size,endurance, strength, digestion, libido,even whether we like rutabagas. Problem is that at this point science has picked all the low hanging fruit- the one-to-ones of genotype<->phenotype. Next it needs to figure out which combination of several of those 150 genetic variants cause YOUR diabetes.

There are some 1:1 genetic probs related to diabetes, like defects in the insulin receptor. But much of the resistance is caused by variations of metabolic defects. Say, a defect in a gene for making COQ10. Then your body can't burn fats, they build up in your cells, causing not only poor endurance, bur the fats get in the way, clogging your insulin receptors. "If you think you understand metabolism, you missed something."

That COQ10 gene is named COQ2, I am homozygous for a defect there. Treatable with COQ10 supplements, a gram per day. That gene is in 11% of the population. (I bet it is one of the 150 cited) Many other defects are about that percentage. Having two such defects makes you 1/100, three 1/1,000. four 1/10,000. We each have 40 million to pick 4 from. We are all unique, baby. Our treatment can not be "one size fits all".
Yeah... the whole "genetics" argument. Genetics that only come into play in the last half century, in societies where people have essentially unlimited access to food, eat too much, and don't exercise enough... Also, why bring up weight loss? That's a diet thing, based on the choices someone makes.

Are some people more predisposed to acquiring diabetes? Probably.

Still doesn't change the fact that type 2 is rare among people of a healthy weight. Kind of like gout, it's a disease of overindulgence.

But good news! It seems that evolution is selecting against obesity, and by extension, diabetes. Besides obese people being less attractive mates, obese women are less likely to conceive, and more likely to suffer complications during pregnancy.
rustypouch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 06:32 AM   #44
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Even if people were susceptible to type 2 diabetes, it's only relatively recently in evolutionary terms that we have enough of a calorie surplus for people to go on and develop in in any appreciable numbers.

Is that literally true, the calorie surplus thing? (It may well be common knowledge ; my own awareness about this is only sketchy.) If that is so, then it seems the solution is simple : just keep your calorific input below surplus level (while taking care to get in enough nutrients). Do you think that simple measure would be ample, that no further drugs would be needed?


Quote:
Then there's the question of whether it strikes early enough to have an impact on breeding success. If I've already passed on my genes successfully at 25, it really doesn't matter that much whether I get sick at 55 from an evolutionary perspective.

This needn’t necessarily be the case. Like I’d tried to express, in a probably unfortunate attempt at a joke earlier on here : Males, men, are able to reproduce much later into life than women. And both life expectancy and general health for humans have shot up in these recent times, when compared with earlier centuries and earlier millennia. Given that, even older males would, nowadays, often be capable of reproducing.

Diabetes doesn’t always strike at 55, it often sets in very much earlier than that. I have no clue what the median age might be, but I’d guess (based on nothing more than my own personal anecdotal observations) that it might be closer to 40 than to 55. But even if we take a higher number, say 50 years, or even for that matter 55 years, that does not, for the male at least, rule out reproduction. (And obviously, should the median turn out to be 45 years, say, instead of 55, then the prospects for the male to reproduce become that much stronger, that much likelier.)


Quote:
The treatment of type 2 diabetes through diet and exercise is so very recent that it cannot have had an evolutionary effect in any case.

Are we sure of this?

I’m no evolutionary biologist, just an amateur -- in fact not even that, I’m just a sketchily informed dabbler in these discussions -- so absolutely I could be wrong, wholly wrong. But my understanding is that mutations are passed on from generation to generation. So, if the diabetes gene (if I may call it that) is indeed of benefit, then it may well have already, in these few decades, started getting passed on successfully.

Perhaps this isn’t measurable yet, because as you say this is so very recent : but could it be that the process has already started, and may become evident two or three (or ten) generations down the line?

For that matter, might it be that this has already started making itself felt? Perhaps we can actually measure this, already (even if we cannot actually isolate this effect)? Perhaps the higher incidence of diabetes at this time (than in other and earlier times) has in some measure something to do with this? Sure, there are a host of other factors, but can we say for sure that this also (the successful passing of the genes) might not be one factor, among others, for the explosion of diabetes cases in our times?

I have no view about whether diabetes really is a thing in terms of evolution (I don’t have enough subject knowledge to form my own view), but I’d be interested to know if you (or anyone else) can say with certainty that such relatively recent trends are definitely outside the scope of what might influence evolution. My instinctive view, my (ill-informed) intuition, says otherwise.

Last edited by Chanakya; 4th May 2018 at 06:34 AM.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 09:01 AM   #45
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Is that literally true, the calorie surplus thing? (It may well be common knowledge ; my own awareness about this is only sketchy.) If that is so, then it seems the solution is simple : just keep your calorific input below surplus level (while taking care to get in enough nutrients). Do you think that simple measure would be ample, that no further drugs would be needed?
Yes it does work, and in the case of my mother it took the loss of her foot, two heart attacks and another seven years for her to actually engage in controlling her diet.

Controlling diets can be difficult even when the individual is interested in it.

Then the low cost of processed carbohydrates impacts others, also out bodies have many interesting mechanism that make processed carbohydrates seem preferable.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 11:10 AM   #46
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Diabetes doesn’t always strike at 55, it often sets in very much earlier than that. I have no clue what the median age might be, but I’d guess ...

Type 2 diabetes: What is the average age of onset? (Medical News Today, May 10, 2017)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 11:18 AM   #47
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Two very recent studies:

A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet acutely decreases postprandial and diurnal glucose excursions in type 2 diabetes patients.

Effect of dietary carbohydrate restriction on glycemic control in adults with diabetes: A systematic review and meta-analysis.


And a very recent Danish study: Vægttab før puberteten reducerer risikoen for type2 diabetes, "Weight loss before puberty reduces the risk of type-2 diabetes"

ETA: I found the Danish study in English:
Quote:
OVERWEIGHT A high body mass index (BMI) and overweight during childhood increase the risk of developing type 2 diabetes later in life. But now researchers from SUND and the Capital Region of Denmark have shown that this only applies to persons who continue to be overweight during puberty or later.
Weight Loss Before Puberty Reduces the Risk of Type 2 Diabetes (Apr. 5, 2018)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th May 2018 at 11:35 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 11:33 AM   #48
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,169
what about type 1 diabetes, that generally killed people before they reproduced in the past. Without inject able insulin there would be few adult type 1 diabetics reproducing.
why the hell is that still around?

Last edited by p0lka; 4th May 2018 at 11:35 AM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 12:53 PM   #49
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,835
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
......

Then the low cost of processed carbohydrates impacts others, also out bodies have many interesting mechanism that make processed carbohydrates seem preferable.
Interesting is a fair description..


Insulin enhances striatal dopamine release by activating cholinergic interneurons and thereby signals reward


I discussed it in this thread also..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 4th May 2018 at 12:54 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 01:17 PM   #50
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
what about type 1 diabetes, that generally killed people before they reproduced in the past. Without inject able insulin there would be few adult type 1 diabetics reproducing.
why the hell is that still around?

No idea! Random mutations? It was a real killer!

Quote:
With no effective treatment aside from a semi-starvation diet, a diabetic's outlook appeared grim. Before 1922, diabetic children rarely lived a year after diagnosis, five percent of adults died within two years, and less than 20 percent lived more than ten (Berger 57). Untreated diabetics faced blindness, loss of limbs, kidney failure, stroke, heart attack and death (Yuwiler 12).
Diabetes Before Insulin
See also: Treatments for Diabetes in the Pre-Insulin Era
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 02:05 PM   #51
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,673
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
The key is reproductive success, considering that as far as we know most Type II diabetes seems associated with high carbohydrate diets and low levels of exercise, why would it have been selected out of the population in the past, prior to the 1970s?

Most people who develop Type II diabetes are capable of reproduction and many do reproduce, that is all that matters in evolution, a negative trait must impact reproduction and cause individuals to not reproduce.

My mother did not develop Type II diabetes until 20 years after she had three children
Indeed - and she'd have been old enough to look after her grandchildren (assuming that she and her kids would have typically started breeding around 15). But more to the point she wouldn't have had a lifetime with plenty. That is *very* new.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 02:28 PM   #52
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,673
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Is that literally true, the calorie surplus thing? (It may well be common knowledge ; my own awareness about this is only sketchy.) If that is so, then it seems the solution is simple : just keep your calorific input below surplus level (while taking care to get in enough nutrients). Do you think that simple measure would be ample, that no further drugs would be needed?



Well without birth control, the population would increase until limited by one of Malthus's four horsemen.

So times of plenty would be temporary, as the population would just increase.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 03:48 PM   #53
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,143
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
what about type 1 diabetes, that generally killed people before they reproduced in the past. Without inject able insulin there would be few adult type 1 diabetics reproducing.
why the hell is that still around?
Way back when I read E O Wilson's Sociobiology, he had a discussion of ways that genes for apparently disadvantageous traits could remain in the gene pool. Included were I think 5 or 6 mechanisms, including genetic drift, new mutations that continue to replenish the gene, genes that are beneficial when possessing a single copy but disadvantageous when possessing two copies (like sickle cell anemia), and some others that I'm not remembering. I found the discussion quite eye opening.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2018, 07:10 PM   #54
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,540
Type 1 is an auto-immune disease, where in you immune system attacks the beta cells in your pancreas. Beta cells produce insulin. Other than the high sugars, totally different disease tahn T2. But there are genes for T1 too.

And fyi, I have been T2 since my mid 20s. 40 years now. And big but not obese as a youngster. I was getting some acromegaly symptoms BEFORE turning obese and diabetic. Which in m,y mind makes me thing Insulin Resistance as a genetic thing, see the OP.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 12:54 AM   #55
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Frinstance, diet and exercise ARE THE BEST TREATMENT. Because taking insulin only exacerbates the pseudo-acromegaly.

This guy, professor Arne Astrup, is the leader of the Copenhagen University Institute of Nutrition, Exercise and Sports, and in Dansk Skeptica we have an excellent cooperation with him whenever breatharianism rears its ugly face: He always lets us repeat his offer to have their claims tested at the institute! (So far, they've never returned our calls!)
For a couple of years, Arne Astrup and his team(s) have known and documented that recently diagnosed diabetes can be cured with diet and exercise:

Quote:
Newly discovered type 2 diabetes can be cured with the proper diet and exercise - we know this, but is research being done to find out how we can implement this knowledge in the actual treatment of diabetes type 2? No, it's more or less hopeless to get money for this - rejection after rejection, but we do not stop - But knowing this, one may be concerned about whether the non-pharmacological treatment is completely overlooked in the new diabetes-treatment centers.
Social Democrats demand insight into billion kroner present from Novo

The problem is that pharma giant Novo Nordisk, a producer of insulin, also has a ‘charitable’ branch, Novo Nordisk Foundation, which supports research in diabetes treatment. It has financed several centers for diabetes treatment in Denmark, but since there’s not a lot of profit for shareholders in teaching people to diet and exercise, they focus exclusively on the medicinal treatment of diabetes type 2!!!

That’s Big Pharma for you.


Diabetes type 2 and evolution:
How Type 2 Diabetes Survived Evolution (Science Life, Mar. 7, 2013)
The Evolutionary Benefit of Insulin Resistance (Pub Med, Dec. 31, 2012)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 5th May 2018 at 01:00 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 07:12 AM   #56
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Yes it does work, and in the case of my mother it took the loss of her foot, two heart attacks and another seven years for her to actually engage in controlling her diet.

Controlling diets can be difficult even when the individual is interested in it.

Then the low cost of processed carbohydrates impacts others, also out bodies have many interesting mechanism that make processed carbohydrates seem preferable.

I’m sorry about your mother, David, and hope she’s doing better now.

Just to clarify, in your mother’s case, did she finally shift to a less-than-surplus diet, calorie-wise, and was this enough to take care of her situation, the diabetes part I mean, even in that advanced stage? Or does she need to take medication for her diabetes, over and above her changed diet?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 07:14 AM   #57
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Type 2 diabetes: What is the average age of onset? (Medical News Today, May 10, 2017)

Thanks for the link, dann.

They give out the average age as 54. Of course, there are qualifications : this applies only to US, to being with ; plus they talk about differences between age of onset and diagnosis. But the short answer is 54.

That would mean, I suppose, that passing this on to the next generation becomes far less likely. You can technically procreate at 54 if you’re a man, but in practice probably not so much, not in large enough numbers for this to make a difference.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 07:20 AM   #58
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by dann View Post

The evidence seems clear enough there. A low-carb diet is definitely good for you if you have diabetes. Thanks for posting those links.

This part, that a low-sugar low-carb diet is good for you if you have diabetes, is common knowledge I suppose, even among those who, like me, don’t really know too much about this issue.

But if a low-carolie sub-surplus diet (low-carb, certainly, but sub-surplus in calorie terms, that added qualification seems crucial) is enough to take care of diabetes, and over time removes the need for medication, well then this is most certainly not common knowledge : at least, I do know people who have diabetes, and none of them follow or, so far as I know, are even aware of this option.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 07:22 AM   #59
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Well without birth control, the population would increase until limited by one of Malthus's four horsemen.

So times of plenty would be temporary, as the population would just increase.

I hate to kill your joke by asking you to explain it, but I have to ask : Where does not using birth control come in here, in this context?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 07:52 AM   #60
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
But remember that exercise is also extremely important if you want to get rid of diabetes or pre-diabetes.
And it appears to be one of those cases where alt. med. might be right: Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about this! (But if you're pushing homeopathic remedies for diabetes or similar nonsense, that's one thing they have in common!)
Exercise prescription for patients with type 2 diabetes and pre-diabetes: A position statement from Exercise and Sport Science Australia (Journal of Science in Medicine and Sport, Jan. 2012, Volume 15, Issue 1, Pages 25–31)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th May 2018, 09:55 AM   #61
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,673
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I hate to kill your joke by asking you to explain it, but I have to ask : Where does not using birth control come in here, in this context?
It wasn't a joke. If you are looking for evolutionary history, the maybe two generations with birth control are insignificant.


Without birth control the population will increase until constrained by either starvation, predation/war or disease.

Historically, populations would have been on the edge of famine, unless something else had previously depleted the population or some new resources became available, whereupon the population would grow quickly until it hits its new limits.

There was plenty of scope for quick population increases - if a couple had ten children but eight died before they had children, a reduction in child mortality due to easier availability of food could have a huge effect.

In some ways this is what happened with the European population of the New World, especially North America.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 06:19 AM   #62
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But remember that exercise is also extremely important if you want to get rid of diabetes or pre-diabetes.
And it appears to be one of those cases where alt. med. might be right: Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about this! (But if you're pushing homeopathic remedies for diabetes or similar nonsense, that's one thing they have in common!)
Exercise prescription for patients with type 2 diabetes and pre-diabetes: A position statement from Exercise and Sport Science Australia (Journal of Science in Medicine and Sport, Jan. 2012, Volume 15, Issue 1, Pages 25–31)

Big pharma not wanting people to know about this would be a probably the explanation for why people aren’t widely aware that Type 2 Diabetes can be effectively managed without medication, by going specifically with a sub-surplus diet. (Provided that is true -- but is it? I don't see anyone, any research I mean, actually saying that. But then I haven't really looked myself, yet.)

I don’t want to derail this thread by talking any further about this here : but unlike many of the things we discuss here, this is of far more than just academic interest. I think I’ll go dig around a bit around this, see what I can find.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 06:23 AM   #63
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It wasn't a joke. If you are looking for evolutionary history, the maybe two generations with birth control are insignificant.


Without birth control the population will increase until constrained by either starvation, predation/war or disease.

Historically, populations would have been on the edge of famine, unless something else had previously depleted the population or some new resources became available, whereupon the population would grow quickly until it hits its new limits.

There was plenty of scope for quick population increases - if a couple had ten children but eight died before they had children, a reduction in child mortality due to easier availability of food could have a huge effect.

In some ways this is what happened with the European population of the New World, especially North America.

I could infer what you’re saying here from your earlier post, other than the birth control part, but I’d imagined you were joking when you said that!

So you’re saying we’ve evolved to cope with famine-like conditions, but evolution hasn’t equipped us very well to deal with times of ease and plenty, right? That’s an interesting thought! What other difficulties, other than Type 2 diabetes, might our current times of plenty be exposing us to, then, I wonder? (Obesity, for one, of course. But of course they’re related, those two, diabetes and obesity.)

Re. what you say about birth control, I’ll repeat what I’d asked earlier of another poster here : Are we sure that the two or so generations that have known extensive and effective use of birth control aren’t, in fact, enough to already have started the passing on of those genes? (I suppose I mean the principle of the thing, rather than about diabetes specifically -- this thread seems to indicate that Type 2 diabetes is unlikely to be a mutation that is passed on.) After all, how many generations would it take for a mutation to take hold, so to say, to actually start being passed on? Wouldn’t two further generations, or even just one generation following some mutation, be ample?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 08:28 AM   #64
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I’m sorry about your mother, David, and hope she’s doing better now.

Just to clarify, in your mother’s case, did she finally shift to a less-than-surplus diet, calorie-wise, and was this enough to take care of her situation, the diabetes part I mean, even in that advanced stage? Or does she need to take medication for her diabetes, over and above her changed diet?
After thirty years , she now doesn't take insulin or insulin stimulating drugs. This just happened in the last rear.

__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 08:30 AM   #65
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But remember that exercise is also extremely important if you want to get rid of diabetes or pre-diabetes.
And it appears to be one of those cases where alt. med. might be right: Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about this!
respectfully disagree, I am not aware of any web pages that don't recommend changes in activity levels and diet.
Can you link to these medication adverts or other sources to support this claim.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 09:01 AM   #66
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
respectfully disagree, I am not aware of any web pages that don't recommend changes in activity levels and diet.
Can you link to these medication adverts or other sources to support this claim.

They are getting there, but they are obviously not happy about it, so in this one, for instance, they recommend both a healthy diet and exercise, but they don't tell us that this is actually enough for large groups of pre-diabetes and early-stage type-2 diabetic patients: that they can cure themselves without medicine! Instead, it becomes a question of making the medicinal solution more efficient!
Quote:
Vi ved i dag, at insulin fungerer bedre, når man dyrker regelmæssig motion. Diabetes-behandling (Novo Nordisk)
"Today we know that insulin works better when you exercise regularly."

Instead of following this advice, you should find out which blood-sugar group you belong to. In many cases, you may not need medicine at all!
In Denmark, fortunately, the public-service TV station has done much to promote the blood-sugar diet.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th May 2018 at 09:06 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 11:29 AM   #67
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,673
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I could infer what you’re saying here from your earlier post, other than the birth control part, but I’d imagined you were joking when you said that!

So you’re saying we’ve evolved to cope with famine-like conditions, but evolution hasn’t equipped us very well to deal with times of ease and plenty, right? That’s an interesting thought! What other difficulties, other than Type 2 diabetes, might our current times of plenty be exposing us to, then, I wonder? (Obesity, for one, of course. But of course they’re related, those two, diabetes and obesity.)
I don't really like the phrase "evolved to" - it sounds a bit teleological (although it is hard to avoid). However, apart from that, then basically yes.

Up to the last half century, pretty much all of hominid evolution had been with populations growing until constrained. That could be predation (including war), or famine, or disease. Times of plenty wouldn't have lasted very long.

Even if they did - as long as any adverse affects occur too late to hinder the the organism's grandchildren's reproductive success, then there would be no selective pressure *against* the trait anyway.



Quote:
Re. what you say about birth control, I’ll repeat what I’d asked earlier of another poster here : Are we sure that the two or so generations that have known extensive and effective use of birth control aren’t, in fact, enough to already have started the passing on of those genes? (I suppose I mean the principle of the thing, rather than about diabetes specifically -- this thread seems to indicate that Type 2 diabetes is unlikely to be a mutation that is passed on.) After all, how many generations would it take for a mutation to take hold, so to say, to actually start being passed on? Wouldn’t two further generations, or even just one generation following some mutation, be ample?


What is the selection pressure? Ten generations ago, an average couple might have had just over four grandchildren that survived to adulthood. Now it might be just under four in some parts of the world.

In between there would have been far more breeding grandchildren as the industrial and agrarian revolutions increased the number of surviving offspring, as well as the improved sanitation and medicine (I'd say these are less important, as well-nourished people are far better at surviving an infection, whilst someone without an infection can still be killed by starvation).



The weaker the selection pressure, the more generations you need to evolve a trait. I am struggling to see what trait is selected for with birth control - possibly not using it, or being medically resistant to certain techniques. However, I would think that would be a very weak selective pressure.




As an aside, one might argue that there was some type of birth control practised by certain families in even medieval times - there was a reason lots of younger offspring of minor gentry ended up as monks or nuns. Infanticide was also practised in many societies.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 12:23 PM   #68
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,540
The Lamarckian theory of evolution says that the parents who use birth control would have sterile children.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 12:30 PM   #69
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
I love this Quora question.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2018, 01:36 PM   #70
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,835
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Big pharma not wanting people to know about this would be a probably the explanation for why people aren’t widely aware that Type 2 Diabetes can be effectively managed without medication, by going specifically with a sub-surplus diet. (Provided that is true -- but is it? I don't see anyone, any research I mean, actually saying that. But then I haven't really looked myself, yet.)

I don’t want to derail this thread by talking any further about this here : but unlike many of the things we discuss here, this is of far more than just academic interest. I think I’ll go dig around a bit around this, see what I can find.
Not necessarily sub-surplus, but low carb, definitely..

A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes

Quote:
The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 7th May 2018 at 01:37 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2018, 06:35 AM   #71
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
After thirty years , she now doesn't take insulin or insulin stimulating drugs. This just happened in the last rear.


That's great! I mean I'm glad she's better now. And also, this is direct, first-person vindication of being able to manage even advanced diabetes without medication and via a sub-calorific-surplus diet (and exercise as well, I suppose).

Thanks for sharing.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2018, 06:38 AM   #72
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The Lamarckian theory of evolution says that the parents who use birth control would have sterile children.

Wouldn't the theory actually be saying, instead, that people using birth control would end up having children who would, in their turn, use birth control as well?

Wait, did we just end up proving Lamarck's theory?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2018, 06:44 AM   #73
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not necessarily sub-surplus, but low carb, definitely..

A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes

Lovely link, thanks for sharing.

Of course, it says "reduced medication", and also "substantially reduced medication", never 'medication entirely discontinued', but I suppose they were simply being careful. And of course, reduction of medication itself is so much better than stuffing yourself every day with pills (which is what people do in practice).

Yeah, the ketogenic diet I'm familiar with. This sub-calorific-surplus diet that came up here was new to me, but I have friends (more fanatically committed to the body beautiful and to fitness in general than I am) who are into the Warrior Diet, and who swear by keto.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2018, 08:02 AM   #74
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That's great! I mean I'm glad she's better now. And also, this is direct, first-person vindication of being able to manage even advanced diabetes without medication and via a sub-calorific-surplus diet (and exercise as well, I suppose).

Thanks for sharing.
Advanced Type II diabetes and again it was a thirty year process and she was reluctant to even pretend there was an issue until she had her foot amputated. That was seven years ago, she just decided to gets serious the last three years.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2018, 01:04 PM   #75
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,835
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Lovely link, thanks for sharing.

Of course, it says "reduced medication", and also "substantially reduced medication", never 'medication entirely discontinued', but I suppose they were simply being careful. And of course, reduction of medication itself is so much better than stuffing yourself every day with pills (which is what people do in practice).

Yeah, the ketogenic diet I'm familiar with. This sub-calorific-surplus diet that came up here was new to me, but I have friends (more fanatically committed to the body beautiful and to fitness in general than I am) who are into the Warrior Diet, and who swear by keto.
If you revisit my quote from the link, it does say:

" The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants. "
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2018, 12:19 AM   #76
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,259
Another reason why it’s a good idea to try to cure diabetes type-2 by dieting and exercising:

Quote:
small changes to existing formulas keep insulin prices high and generics out of reach — despite the fact that the original patent expired over 75 years ago. (…) Sanders and Cummings noted that patients paid more than three times as much for their insulin in 2013 than they had in 2002
Insulin – at what cost? (beyondtype1.org, Jan. 19, 2017)

Quote:
One father testified that his 13-year-old son’s insulin jumped from $300 for a 90-day supply in 2017 to more than $900 in early 2018.
The Rising Cost of Insulin: “Horror Stories Every Day” (CBS News, May 9, 2018)

Quote:
In 1922, Frederick Banting, Charles Best, and John Macleod celebrated the first insulin injection into a human, 14-year-old Leonard Thompson. Shortly thereafter, the trio agreed to partner with Eli Lilly and Company to help with production. (…) The trio didn’t patent their work on insulin therapy until after they entered this agreement, when they famously sold their rights to insulin to the University of Toronto for $3 in 1923. The goal of this early maneuvering of their intellectual rights to insulin therapy was to make sure one company didn’t have a monopoly on the drug therapy.
“They really worried about that even early on,” Dr. Lipska said.
It didn’t work. (…)
a vial of insulin cost $1.49 in 1972, which would be $8.86 now when adjusted for inflation. In 2004, that same vial would cost $60, and today it would go for roughly $300, she said. Improvements in performance are no longer justifying those spikes in prices, she said.
“The latest generations (of insulin) are not light years different from those we had about 10 years ago,” Dr. Lipska said
How Insulin Became So Expensive – A History (insulinnation.com, Jun. 21, 2017)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th May 2018 at 12:40 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2018, 07:25 AM   #77
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If you revisit my quote from the link, it does say:

" The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants. "

You’re right. Discontinued, yes, like you say -- and in as many as a third of the subjects, as they clarify elsewhere. My bad!

Keto diets are something we'd do well to take note of, it seems, and not just as some interesting piece of trivia, but as something we might try out ourselves. This particular dietary fad seems to be more than just another fad!
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2018, 10:34 AM   #78
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,835
Keto gets a lot of bad rap from the doom and gloom crowd..

They need to ask " what are the physiological downsides, compared to being obese and diabetic ? " ..

I consider any long-term ketogenic diet to be extreme, with the possibility of adverse effects if not controlled for.

Low carb and high fat can be very effective for controlling obesity and diabetes also.. By ' high fat ', I do not mean excess calories;
I mean high in proportion to carbohydrates.
A lot of people don't' consider that between protein, fats and carbohydrates, only carbohydrates are not essential for life and health..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 12th May 2018 at 10:47 AM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2018, 05:22 AM   #79
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,540
Problem is that there is not the one diabetes gene. It takes a confluence of several to cause the grief. Which allows for much individual variation of disease and side effects.

For example, lets say there common gene variants that at the root of my disease. Two are each in 50% of the population, two more are each in ten. 50% x 50% x 10% x 10%, and my combination is in only .25%, or 1 in 400. ( The same concept probably holds true for many many disease states- arthritis ? arteries? eczema? blue eyes? Democrats? )

One of my variants has to do with grehlin. I call it the "Voracious appetite gene". It's not uncommon, it just makes it hard for us to "just eat less". Doable, but hard. Add in an "insulin receptor anomaly", and you have diabetes.

Evolution wise, each of those variants may have an advantage. It's only the combination that causes malaise.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

Last edited by casebro; 13th May 2018 at 05:31 AM.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2018, 05:27 AM   #80
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,540
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Keto gets a lot of bad rap from the doom and gloom crowd..

They need to ask " what are the physiological downsides, compared to being obese and diabetic ? " ..

I consider any long-term ketogenic diet to be extreme, with the possibility of adverse effects if not controlled for.

Low carb and high fat can be very effective for controlling obesity and diabetes also.. By ' high fat ', I do not mean excess calories;
I mean high in proportion to carbohydrates.
A lot of people don't' consider that between protein, fats and carbohydrates, only carbohydrates are not essential for life and health..
Ketos are the 4th macro-nutrient. If you are interested in long term, look up Dr. Peter Attia. And I am sure there are other Keto gurus.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:21 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.