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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , lawsuits , Michael Cohen , Stephanie Clifford , Stormy Daniels , Trump controversies

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Old 11th May 2018, 12:26 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
It's only a fallacy if someone uses it in support of their argument. Simply saying "I see hypocrisy" is neither a tu quoque fallacy or an ad hominem, simply an observance of behavior.

Please don't lecture others on logical fallacies. You simply lack the ammunition.
That's what I said

I will; however, admit that I mess up fallacies all of the time. There are entirely too many.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:28 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Looks like Avenatti is using NDA's as part of his settlements arising out of his coffee company fiasco!

https://twitter.com/coffeemaverick/s...52766806073344

Fantastic. Got a good chuckle out of that!
So? You've prattled off a bunch about how common NDA's are in the business world. Why should this be surprising that a lawyer uses his resources? It's not hypocritical, it's not ironic, it's just common practice.

I get a chuckle out of these random posts.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:31 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Looks like Avenatti is using NDA's as part of his settlements arising out of his coffee company fiasco!

https://twitter.com/coffeemaverick/s...52766806073344

Fantastic. Got a good chuckle out of that!
Why? Isn't Avenatti's issue with the particular NDA he claims Trump didn't sign?
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:32 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
It's only a fallacy if someone uses it in support of their argument.
Actually it is counter accusation that attempts to discredit the opponent's arguments.

Viz:

The leaks are damaging Cohen's right to a fair trial
Response: But you didn't complain when something something Clinton.

Classic tu quoque and now you have ammunition you need to help you recognize one!
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:35 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Why? Isn't Avenatti's issue with the particular NDA he claims Trump didn't sign?
Thirsty's cute little name for his his "quest" is project sunlight.

Except when it comes to his coffee business fiasco, or when it comes to telling people where he got the stolen documents.

And yes, I fully understand the irony of the situation.
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Last edited by The Big Dog; 11th May 2018 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:41 PM   #286
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This thread is titled Stormy Daniels sues the President. I just went back and read the first few pages. What's funny is that there were people that said, this was so much more than an affair and an NDA. People like TBD just whined it was a nuisance suit. He mocked Avenatti and said it would be in secret arbitration soon. He tried to tell us how pathetic a lawyer Avenatti was.

Looks very much like the Big Dog was wrong. So much for his legal expertise.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:42 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
ETA: You're right about the straw man, but again, he wasn't using it to support his own argument, it was simply what he gleaned from your posts, and made an assessment.
More of a hyperbole than a straw man.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:05 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
More of a hyperbole than a straw man.
True, hyperbole would be more appropriate. In any case, the constant use of "logical fallacy!" when you know your position is shaky and untenable is tiresome. An argument should stand on it's own merits; constantly diverting from that is getting old.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:07 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually it is counter accusation that attempts to discredit the opponent's arguments.

Viz:

The leaks are damaging Cohen's right to a fair trial
Response: But you didn't complain when something something Clinton.

Classic tu quoque and now you have ammunition you need to help you recognize one!
No, it isn't. Please stop for your own benefit.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:08 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I doubt anyone here would be comfortable sending Cohen to prison without a trial.
Me either. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if there were at least a couple of people who would be comfortable with Hillary Clinton being sent to prison without a trial.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:12 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If that were the analogy, then the Deep State would be acting in a corrupt manner (hit-and-run), and Cohen would be in hot pursuit. It's also a mischaracterization to say that this leak is coming from the "Government." Did the Government leak hundreds of thousands of cables? More precisely, it was Bradley Manning. You might be in the realm of scoring a point if the leak you're kvetching about came from the Special Counsel, but it was noted that hundreds (if not thousands) of people have access to the information in question.



No, we are not only talking about the judicial system here. Posters are making moral judgements about Cohen based on the publicly available evidence, just as we would do in any other case. I doubt anyone here would be comfortable sending Cohen to prison without a trial.



Understatement of the thread: You don't have a good handle on logical fallacies. Then again, the genre of ad hominem fallacies, part of the sprawling genre of fallacies of irrelevance, are not well understood by most messageboard commenters. Calling someone an idiot, for example, is not necessarily fallacious. It could simply be a conclusion based on reading a person's posts. The fallacy is to say someone is wrong because he's an idiot.

Currently you are attempting to fashion yourself as the only person interested in the rule of law, so others are naturally pointing to how you handled accusations against D's rather than R's. Hypocrisy is not about right and wrong but credibility. We have every reason to believe you're not arguing in good faith, and indeed you're probably the least morally serious participant here. Your views seem colored more by tribal membership than the rule of law. Donald Rumsfeld was quick to condemn Saddam Hussein for violating the Geneva Convention by putting captured soldiers on television. Do we honestly believe Rumsfeld cares about the Geneva Convention?
There is something both unsettling and comforting when you break character like this. Thanks!
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:12 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thirsty's cute little name for his his "quest" is project sunlight.

Except when it comes to his coffee business fiasco, or when it comes to telling people where he got the stolen documents.

And yes, I fully understand the irony of the situation.
Even with that log in your eye ? Amazing.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:13 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
No, it isn't. Please stop for your own benefit.
Probably the most basic definition

For all of our benefit.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:19 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Looks like Avenatti is using NDA's as part of his settlements arising out of his coffee company fiasco!

https://twitter.com/coffeemaverick/s...52766806073344

Fantastic. Got a good chuckle out of that!
I did get a chuckle out of all the Trump supporters being mad that Avenatti actually paid off a debt like a loser instead of forcing the guy to sue him, like Trump would have. True winners stiff the little people around them!
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:26 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I did get a chuckle out of all the Trump supporters being mad that Avenatti actually paid off a debt like a loser instead of forcing the guy to sue him, like Trump would have. True winners stiff the little people around them!
Bit a wry chuckle was it? Because at least 45 lawsuits have been filed against his company, his last law firm went bankrupt and there are claims for at least $5 million in unpaid taxes.

Seems like Avenatti took a master class in stiffing the little people, no?

Project Sunlight
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:37 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bit a wry chuckle was it? Because at least 45 lawsuits have been filed against his company, his last law firm went bankrupt and there are claims for at least $5 million in unpaid taxes.
Pronoun question: Trump or Avenatti?

Quote:
Seems like Avenatti took a master class in stiffing the little people, no?

Project Sunlight
Probably just read Art of The Deal. I hear it has lots of good tips like this.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:39 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Pronoun question: Trump or Avenatti?
.
Seems like Avenatti took a master class in stiffing the little people, no?

Project Sunlight
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:41 PM   #298
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I thought not paying taxes was "smart"?
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:44 PM   #299
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Got any links for that?
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:46 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I thought not paying taxes was "smart"?
Not when they are payrolls taxes that Avenatti's companies withheld from his workers paychecks....
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:57 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Seems like Avenatti took a master class in stiffing the little people, no?

Project Sunlight
So, how many lawsuits for stiffing little people is too many?

Hint: Your favorite presidential candidate, after Bernie, has more than whatever number you want to use.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:57 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I laughed!

"Let this serve as formal notice" says a guy posting on twitter! Oh man, what a *********** clown this guy is.

Talking of clowns, isn't twitter what Trump uses for official presidential missives?
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:58 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Talking of clowns, isn't twitter what Trump uses for official presidential missives?
Bigly.
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:06 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So, how many lawsuits for stiffing little people is too many?

Hint: Your favorite presidential candidate, after Bernie, has more than whatever number you want to use.
Quote:
“He’s getting all this positive press for the Stormy Daniels thing, but at the same time, this (expletive) just cost hundreds of people their jobs,” he said.
Bit more information here about the left's New Hero

Quote:
“Mr. Nold is widely known as an unethical ‘hack’ of a lawyer who routinely files baseless complaints,” Avenatti’s email said. “He is a disgrace to the legal profession and is consumed by jealousy of other attorneys so he makes baseless allegations. His most recent conduct is yet more of the same — I hope he gets the help he needs.”

Avenatti provided no evidence for his attack against Nold, who has no record of disciplinary actions or ethical violations, according to the Washington State Bar website.
Classy guy with absolutely no signs of anger control issues....
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:12 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bit more information here about the left's New Hero
It's funny that this topic keeps coming up, but I guess we need to go over it again: Neither Avenatti nor Stormy are my role models or heroes. I think the rest of the left probably shares my thoughts on that.

I do not worship the ground they walk on and I have no interest in defending their actions from legitimate scrutiny.

I enjoy watching them expose what a bunch of hacks and incompetents the president has surrounded himself with.

I enjoy watching them expose what a complete loser the president is.

I enjoy watching them be a part of ruining he reputation of people who seem to have acted like complete ********.

While I enjoy watching them make you jump through all sorts of hoops to defend the indefensible, I do not plan to invite either of them to the cookout.
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:19 PM   #306
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Giuliani said he wouldn't debate Avenatti because the lawyer was "pimping for money."

"I don't get involved with pimps," Giuliani said. "The media loves to give him room because he makes these roundabout charges and they turn out to mean nothing. I think he's going to get himself in serious trouble."
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:27 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Giuliani said he wouldn't debate Avenatti because the lawyer was "pimping for money."

"I don't get involved with pimps," Giuliani said. "The media loves to give him room because he makes these roundabout charges and they turn out to mean nothing. I think he's going to get himself in serious trouble."
This is just so precious. Thank you for preserving it.

For our younger posters, a bit of context.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:09 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:42 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not when they are payrolls taxes that Avenatti's companies withheld from his workers paychecks....
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uits/85297274/

Quote:
At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

Trump’s companies have also been cited for 24 violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act since 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage, according to U.S. Department of Labor data. That includes 21 citations against the defunct Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and three against the also out-of-business Trump Mortgage LLC in New York. Both cases were resolved by the companies agreeing to pay back wages.

Litigator in chief

In addition to the lawsuits, the review found more than 200 mechanic’s liens — filed by contractors and employees against Trump, his companies or his properties claiming they were owed money for their work — since the 1980s. The liens range from a $75,000 claim by a Plainview, N.Y., air conditioning and heating company to a $1 million claim from the president of a New York City real estate banking firm. On just one project, Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, records released by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission in 1990 show that at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, including workers who installed walls, chandeliers and plumbing.
You condemn this equally, right? Or, in fact, more given how much money is being talked about, how many people are involved, and over what period of time it all happened. You'd be happy to say, right here and now, that you think that Trump's actions in these kinds of matters have been worse than Avenatti's, right?
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:51 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uits/85297274/



You condemn this equally, right? Or, in fact, more given how much money is being talked about, how many people are involved, and over what period of time it all happened. You'd be happy to say, right here and now, that you think that Trump's actions in these kinds of matters have been worse than Avenatti's, right?
60? that’s it? If Trump kissed every employees ass and gave them a raise every month, he’d still have this many losers trying to get something out of him.
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Old 11th May 2018, 04:02 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
60? that’s it? If Trump kissed every employees ass and gave them a raise every month, he’d still have this many losers trying to get something out of him.
If you're only going to read the first 3 words, then it seems like the smart thing to do would be not to comment.
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Old 11th May 2018, 04:17 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bit a wry chuckle was it? Because at least 45 lawsuits have been filed against his company, his last law firm went bankrupt and there are claims for at least $5 million in unpaid taxes.

Seems like Avenatti took a master class in stiffing the little people, no?

Project Sunlight
WTF is this? No link. Sounds like something a Russian troll made up and injected into the right-wing social media.

Try a legit news source, Avenatti is quite the man.

Business Insider: Meet the high-profile lawyer and professional sports car driver representing Stormy Daniels in her lawsuit against Trump — who says more 'bombshells' on Cohen are coming

Some highlights:
Quote:
After graduating law school, Avenatti worked at O'Melveny & Myers, a high-powered Los Angeles law firm. Over the course of his legal career, he has contributed to several high-profile cases involving Paris Hilton, Jim Carrey, and members of the rock band The Eagles....

In 2007, he formed his own firm called Eagan Avenatti, where he has settled and won lucrative cases against the NFL and medical manufacturers Kimberly-Clark and Halyard Health, among others....

Avenatti is also an auto-racing fanatic. He has participated in numerous races around the US and in Europe. "Life is meant to be lived; there are no dress rehearsals," he told GW Law School magazine in 2010....

Avenatti has been a thorn in Trump's side for years. While working at Greene Broillet & Wheeler, a law firm in California, Avenatti helped sue Trump for allegedly stealing the idea of his hit reality TV show on NBC, "The Apprentice."...
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Old 11th May 2018, 04:17 PM   #313
Steve
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If you're only going to read the first 3 words, then it seems like the smart thing to do would be not to comment.
The quote was contrary to his conditioning and failed to register. What he actually saw was a blank page.


(Sometimes a person just has to bite the bullet and accept the yellow card. At least I legitimately earned this one)
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Old 11th May 2018, 04:24 PM   #314
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bit more information here about the left's New Hero

Classy guy with absolutely no signs of anger control issues....
He bought a failing coffee business (Tullys) and has since sold his interest in the company.

From my link above:
Quote:
Earlier in March, as Avenatti gained prominence in the national media for his role in the Stormy Daniels case, a spokesman for Tully's said he no longer owned the company, but still served as its general counsel. The company announced it was temporarily closing its stores due to a coffee shortage.
Looks like you are repeating accusations like they were fact. This from your link:
Quote:
... he generally disputed the allegations and attacked Nold’s character.

“Mr. Nold is widely known as an unethical ‘hack’ of a lawyer who routinely files baseless complaints,” Avenatti’s email said. “He is a disgrace to the legal profession and is consumed by jealousy of other attorneys so he makes baseless allegations. His most recent conduct is yet more of the same — I hope he gets the help he needs.”
Sounds like there were issues with Tully's. Not sure where the dust will settle when it does. No doubt of course the Trumpers will latch onto those allegations and echo them all over the place.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:01 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
60? that’s it? If Trump kissed every employees ass and gave them a raise every month, he’d still have this many losers trying to get something out of him.
So instead he steals from them. Good guy that Trump.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:02 PM   #316
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If Avenatti had anything at all to do with getting the big green "T" abomination off of the old Rainier brewery, I'm all for him!
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:06 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He bought a failing coffee business (Tullys) and has since sold his interest in the company.

From my link above:

Looks like you are repeating accusations like they were fact. This from your link:

Sounds like there were issues with Tully's. Not sure where the dust will settle when it does. No doubt of course the Trumpers will latch onto those allegations and echo them all over the place.
Well it would appear that you are repeating Avenatti's defenses as if they are fact, despite the fact that the employees he ********** over have contradicted his claims.

He claimed to have sold the company? Sounds like the low level employees he screwed over disagree, although he might have sold it to an LLC he set up.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:37 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The appeal to hypocrisy fallacy is known as a tu quoque fallacy. Its form is "I'm sure that if I checked your rich posting history, you refrained from commenting on Hillary Clinton's guilt/innocence even though she wasn't indicted, let alone tried" which is an ad hominem fallacy because my posts about Clinton do not falsify my comprehensive statements about the developments here in any way, and in fact are a fairly blatant attempt to derail the discussion.
Please read for comprehension. As explained earlier, an insult takes the form of a fallacy when it's used to dismiss an argument. It's not a fallacy when it's said as a conclusion. Tu quoque is fallacy when it's used to say "Violating Clinton's right to due process was OK, so, logically, violating Cohen's right to due process is also OK." But that's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that you are not committed to a right of due process. It's perfectly understandable posters would bring up your previous postings when attempting to assess your ability to faithfully and accurately navigate sometimes opaque legalisms.

Quote:
The highlighted sentence is a straw man.
This is probably the most abused fallacy after the ad hominem. All you have to do is back it up. As a reminder, my alleged straw man claimed, "Currently you are attempting to fashion yourself as the only person interested in the rule of law."

So, who are the active posters in this thread as rule-of-law minded as yourself?
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:41 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Innocent-until-proven guilty is a conceit of the judicial system. Also, I'm sure that if I checked your rich posting history, you refrained from commenting on Hillary Clinton's guilt/innocence even though she wasn't indicted, let alone tried.
This is hypocrisy you are talking about, and you know hypocrisy don't mean squat to some people.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:51 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I laughed!

"Let this serve as formal notice" says a guy posting on twitter! Oh man, what a *********** clown this guy is.
Quote:
The Department of Justice on Monday told a federal district court judge In Washington, D.C. that Donald Trump’s tweets are “official statements of the President of the United States.”
source

How quickly they forget.
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