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Old 10th May 2018, 11:15 AM   #121
Brainster
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You don't have a right not to be "asked" to show an ID. That's silly.
Indeed, that is the whole rationale for a student ID in the first place.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:17 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Well, yes. But I'm white, have a nice, middle-class accent and live in the UK. I have very, very different interactions with policeman than do black people in the US.


Again, I urge you to go back and re-read what I've written.
And I urge you to go back and re-read how you blamed the student for not kowtowing to the cops just because no one should object to their intrusive approach to the student.

EDIT: "My, sadly well supported, assumption is that had the student acted reasonably, the policeman would not have."

OK, I see what you said, but you could have just clarified it instead of griping I didn't understand. Because your comment was poorly worded without completing the "have [what]." The student did act reasonably. She opened her dorm room door with a key. So you saying had she acted reasonably implies plainly that she didn't.

I apologize for misreading your very poorly worded sentence.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:18 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
She's the one who's still talking about it. As a Yale student.
And boasting how she won the debate.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:19 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Isn't this post supposed to have a smile emoji on it? I know that you wrote it with a smile on your face and tongue in cheek, but your attempts to spin the facts still made me dizzy.

Thanks for the laugh.

BTW- I agree that her position in an assigned high school debate is irrelevant, although the more recent quote of hers does suggest a certain retained enthusiasm for the slavery-was-good-for- the-slaves, pro-slavery side.
Which quote? About the debate? Formal debates are very structured. Describing how you win doesn't indicate what you personally believe. It sounds like she's enthusiastic about winning a formal debate contest, but there's no reason to extrapolate that enthusiasm to anything beyond that. The spin here is that it indicates pro-slavery sentiment when it doesn't.

And in fact, her statements about feeling like a slave when she was a Jehovah's Witness suggest rather strongly that she's anti-slavery. Those are the only quotes which reflect her personal beliefs, rather than a position adopted for competition.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:20 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And boasting how she won the debate.
Why is it wrong to boast about winning a formal debate competition? It's an achievement.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:28 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
She opened her dorm room with a key. Why the need to check her ID, and not just that, but call to check the student registry to make sure she was a registered student?

Think about it. Did the cops really think the person who called them knew every student in her dorm and that she was so sure this wasn't one of them the cops felt the need to be absolutely certain checking ID, registration as a student and that she lived there?

Same with the cops and the two students on the college tour? Why didn't they approach the tour leader instead of the students first?
I have keys and know the names of owners for over 20 properties. Your ID confirms who you are, not having a key or knowing a name.

Eta: I've used my daughters key and of course knew her name when she was in undergrad. Should that give me free run of the dorms?
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I read your whole post. I didn't misinterpret it. But in the end you added an opinion about why the student was wrong to not just bend over.
No, I didn't.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, so the correct response from the student, in this instance is to look up, see the policeman, say 'I'm alright, thank you' and go back to sleep.

It's what I'd do. It's what anyone safe and secure in their knowledge of their right to be where they are would do. Any further requests made by the policeman should be declined with reference to the fourth amendment.

If I did it, I suspect it'd be fine. I'm white. (And not American. My home counties accent would swing it one way or the other, I think )

My, sadly well supported, assumption is that had the student acted reasonably, the policeman would not have.

Subsequently:

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If an officer asks you for your ID, you have to give it to him?

That doesn't sound at all right. Is that allowable under the fourth amendment?
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:30 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How about just review records of calls for 'suspicious activity' responses?

We already have records, lots of them, that police disproportionately stop black drivers, stop and frisk in NY, and I'm sure there are many more times they stop pedestrians walking while black as well.

A black doctor I know has been pulled over for nothing more than once while driving his Eddie Bauer (aka fancy) Ford SUV. He's also been stopped while jogging!

Have you ever been pulled over for nothing?
I'm white, and I was pulled over for nothing twice in a space of a few weeks ~20 years ago. Different cops. Both incidents happened on a Sunday night (I think things were quiet and the cops didn't have much to do). At the time I lived in a largely Hispanic neighborhood in north Denver, Colorado, and I drove an old rustbucket of a Scout. I think it was the old decrepit-looking vehicle that motivated the stops. In both cases, I had not, as far as I knew violated any traffic, and neither cop said why I was stopped. I think they were fishing for lack of insurance. It was dark, so I don't think the cops could tell my ethnicity before they stopped me. One of them warned me about insurance. He had asked for license and registration, which I gave him. I showed him my insurance card after he mentioned it, and insisted that he had asked for it in the first place (he didn't).
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:31 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why is it wrong to boast about winning a formal debate competition? It's an achievement.
Come-on Zig, follow the discussion.

You dismissed the significance of her debating the pro-slavery side in middle school. Clearly she's proud of and from the sound of it she believes she won the debate and believes she proved pro-slavery is a valid POV.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:32 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And I urge you to go back and re-read how you blamed the student for not kowtowing to the cops just because no one should object to their intrusive approach to the student.

EDIT: "My, sadly well supported, assumption is that had the student acted reasonably, the policeman would not have."

OK, I see what you said, but you could have just clarified it instead of griping I didn't understand. Because your comment was poorly worded without completing the "have [what]." The student did act reasonably. She opened her dorm room door with a key. So you saying had she acted reasonably implies plainly that she didn't.

I apologize for misreading your very poorly worded sentence.

You know what. Normally I'm very amenable to apologies, but this is a politicians apology because you don't have the stones to admit you were wrong.

Have a lovely day.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:32 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If an officer asks you for your ID, you have to give it to him?

That doesn't sound at all right. Is that allowable under the fourth amendment?
Well unless you want a beating, the constitution is not exactly something the police need to care about. They violate peoples constitutional rights constantly and know they will continue to get away with it.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:33 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If an officer asks you for your ID, you have to give it to him?

That doesn't sound at all right. Is that allowable under the fourth amendment?
What do you think is the purpose of a student ID?
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:34 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm white, and I was pulled over for nothing twice in a space of a few weeks ~20 years ago. Different cops. Both incidents happened on a Sunday night (I think things were quiet and the cops didn't have much to do). At the time I lived in a largely Hispanic neighborhood in north Denver, Colorado, and I drove an old rustbucket of a Scout. I think it was the old decrepit-looking vehicle that motivated the stops. In both cases, I had not, as far as I knew violated any traffic, and neither cop said why I was stopped. I think they were fishing for lack of insurance. It was dark, so I don't think the cops could tell my ethnicity before they stopped me. One of them warned me about insurance. He had asked for license and registration, which I gave him. I showed him my insurance card after he mentioned it, and insisted that he had asked for it in the first place (he didn't).
You were driving. The woman here was sleeping in her own dorm building.

Cops do pull over old rust-bucket cars. Doesn't mean they would pull over a white guy in a nice car but they do pull over black men in nice cars.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:36 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, I didn't.

Subsequently:
Read my edit. I had to read your post three times to understand how in hell you weren't blaming the victim here.

"Had she acted reasonably" implies she had not. But she had acted reasonably.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:37 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I have keys and know the names of owners for over 20 properties. Your ID confirms who you are, not having a key or knowing a name.

Eta: I've used my daughters key and of course knew her name when she was in undergrad. Should that give me free run of the dorms?
Like that absurd hypothetical is relevant.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:40 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Come-on Zig, follow the discussion.

You dismissed the significance of her debating the pro-slavery side in middle school. Clearly she's proud of and from the sound of it she believes she won the debate and believes she proved pro-slavery is a valid POV.
No. It was a formal debate. Do you not understand how those work? She doesn't think she won the way you think you win a debate here. There are judges who declare a winner. Nothing about that means she agrees with slavery, and her other statements about religion indicate that she doesn't.

And again, this was a school assignment. Why shouldn't she be proud of having done well?
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:42 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
You don't have a right not to be "asked" to show an ID. That's silly.
Sometimes, yes, you have a right.

We aren't required to carry our papers around as far as I know.

So when can police ask for ID?
Quote:
Carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2013, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you’re free to go. You can do this by saying “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions.

If you’re detained, you’ll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you’re on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state’s laws can help you make the best choice.

Remember that the officer’s decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you’re searched or arrested following an officer’s ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:43 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Like that absurd hypothetical is relevant.
Nothing hypothetical. Both happen/ed. You ask why she was asked for ID. There's damn good reasons that having a key does not qualify, and that an old ID is not valid.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:47 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nothing hypothetical. Both happen/ed. You ask why she was asked for ID. There's damn good reasons that having a key does not qualify, and that an old ID is not valid.


You could have used your daughter's keys, did you ever do that, hung out in the common room of her dorm? Is that a reasonable thing for the cops to believe, the woman had stolen or borrowed keys?

She might have been a clone, her body taken over by aliens and asking for her ID would have revealed her to be a fake person.

You seem to forget there was no crime here, not even reasonable suspicion. There was unreasonable suspicion.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:49 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What do you think is the purpose of a student ID?
Getting in and out? Student discounts? So you can demonstrate to faculty that you're in the right course?


I don't think it's for proving to any passing policeman, who has no just cause to ask, that you're entitled to be on campus, no.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:51 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You could have used your daughter's keys, did you ever do that, hung out in the common room of her dorm? Is that a reasonable thing for the cops to believe, the woman had stolen or borrowed keys?

She might have been a clone, her body taken over by aliens and asking for her ID would have revealed her to be a fake person.
You think people losing or loaning keys is implausible? Yikes.

And yes, I have used my daughters keys many times, with her knowledge and consent, when going in and out of her dorm without her having to let me in each time. Its pretty common
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:52 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You could have used your daughter's keys, did you ever do that, hung out in the common room of her dorm? Is that a reasonable thing for the cops to believe, the woman had stolen or borrowed keys?

She might have been a clone, her body taken over by aliens and asking for her ID would have revealed her to be a fake person.

You seem to forget there was no crime here, not even reasonable suspicion. There was unreasonable suspicion.
Even if it was possible trespassing, it shouldn't be the job of the police to be the first to ask someone to leave.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What do you think is the purpose of a student ID?
Mine had a magnetic stripe that would open doors or access my meal plan.

Generally it was used to GAIN admittance to buildings or services, not in my experience, as a required justification of your presence when you were already in your own dorm.

It was also good for a student discount at the movies.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #144
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If the woman was identified by a resident as not being someone who lived there, I think its reasonable to ask for ID. Then give the caller holy hell for harassing the poor woman and wasting the cops time
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:55 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sometimes, yes, you have a right.

We aren't required to carry our papers around as far as I know.

So when can police ask for ID?

Maybe not all that relevant, since in this case the woman wasn't refusing to identify herself. She told them who she was. She just wasn't carrying her ID card around the commons room while she was in her own dorm.

I'd be interested to know if school policy requires the residents to keep their ID cards on their person at all times, no exceptions.

If they do, then I expect there are a lot of violators.

I wonder if the woman who called the cops had her ID with her.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:56 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And yes, I have used my daughters keys many times, with her knowledge and consent, when going in and out of her dorm without her having to let me in each time. Its pretty common
You're lucky you didn't get caught. Being in a dorm without a student ID is a police matter... I've heard.
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:57 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Getting in and out? Student discounts? So you can demonstrate to faculty that you're in the right course?


I don't think it's for proving to any passing policeman, who has no just cause to ask, that you're entitled to be on campus, no.
Well, let's see what Yale says about their student ID's:

https://idcenter.yale.edu/
All students, faculty and staff of the University are required to obtain an ID card. The ID Card identifies you as a current member of the Yale community and should be carried with you at all times while you are on campus.
Hmmm....
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:57 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'd be interested to know if school policy requires the residents to keep their ID cards on their person at all times, no exceptions.

If they do, then I expect there are a lot of violators.
I doubt that they have such a policy. Where would they hold the card while showering?
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Old 10th May 2018, 11:59 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
You're lucky you didn't get caught. Being in a dorm without a student ID is a police matter... I've heard.
What passed for security at colleges is a joke. She and I made a game of how many different ways we could bypass it.

With a non-parent, its a very different game though
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:00 PM   #150
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, let's see what Yale says about their student ID's:

https://idcenter.yale.edu/
All students, faculty and staff of the University are required to obtain an ID card. The ID Card identifies you as a current member of the Yale community and should be carried with you at all times while you are on campus.
Hmmm....
As I just mentioned to quadraginta, common sense tells us that phrase likely does not apply to people within their own dorm buildings, otherwise showering might be awkward.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:00 PM   #151
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https://www.snopes.com/ap/2018/05/10...alling-police/
Quote:
NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) — Yale University police officers who responded to a call about a black graduate student who had fallen asleep in the common area of a campus residence admonished the white student who reported it, a university administrator said Thursday.
No source for this claim though.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:02 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We had a dead deer left in the elevator of our dorm and I don't think the cops were called.
Obviously. Real students would have eaten it. D'uh.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:03 PM   #153
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So, it seems that the bitch who called the cops almost certainly knew exactly who Ms. Siyonbola was when she saw her taking a nap in the common area.

From the Yale Daily News:
Quote:
In March, Reneson and Siyonbola submitted a complaint about a separate incident to Associate Dean for Graduate Student Development and Diversity Michelle Nearon. According to a copy of the complaint Reneson provided to the News, the incident began when Siyonbola invited several colleagues, including Reneson, to a meeting in the HGS common room on February 24. Reneson, lost in HGS, was physically blocked by Braasch from entering the common room after he asked her for directions, the complaint read.
It's good that the Yale PD is available and willing to help racist students grind their axes.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:04 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You think people losing or loaning keys is implausible? Yikes. ...
You think that straw version is what I said?

It isn't.

This argument isn't worth more of my time.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th May 2018 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post


"a university administrator said Thursday" is not a source?
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:14 PM   #156
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
As I just mentioned to quadraginta, common sense tells us that phrase likely does not apply to people within their own dorm buildings, otherwise showering might be awkward.
The policy says, "should", not "must". Nevertheless, and even with common-sense exceptions, the existence of such a policy suggests that students may indeed be asked to present their ID card to demonstrate that they belong where they are.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:14 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What do you think is the purpose of a student ID?
But she did show her ID, though not without some protest, in her own room in her own dorm in her own college, and they still did not accept it.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That's right, she should know her place, is that it?
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, so the correct response from the student, in this instance is to look up, see the policeman, say 'I'm alright, thank you' and go back to sleep.

It's what I'd do. It's what anyone safe and secure in their knowledge of their right to be where they are would do. Any further requests made by the policeman should be declined with reference to the fourth amendment.

If I did it, I suspect it'd be fine. I'm white. (And not American. My home counties accent would swing it one way or the other, I think )

My, sadly well supported, assumption is that had the student acted reasonably, the policeman would not have.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I read your whole post. I didn't misinterpret it. But in the end you added an opinion about why the student was wrong to not just bend over. Sorry, not from my POV. People get tired of being harassed because they are black. You said she should have bent over, IOW ignoring the fact blacks might have a beef about that.
Captain_Swoop, 3point14, and I are all British.

To me 3point14's post was *dripping* with sarcasm. He - was pointing out precisely what you were saying.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:19 PM   #159
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The policy says, "should", not "must". Nevertheless, and even with common-sense exceptions, the existence of such a policy suggests that students may indeed be asked to present their ID card to demonstrate that they belong where they are.
That's a bit of extrapolation from a policy that doesn't seem to make any mention of an obligation to show that ID to anyone on demand.

Generally, IDs are used at points of entry

Dorms are students homes. I would expect that people are only required to prove they belong in their own home in cases where some reasonable suspicion exists.

I'd agree that some cases may exist where a proof of identity via student ID may be a reasonable request, but this isn't it.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:24 PM   #160
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But she did show her ID, though not without some protest, in her own room in her own dorm in her own college, and they still did not accept it.
Because it didn't match the computer database. Which isn't really her fault, but it's still a problem.
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