ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th May 2018, 02:53 PM   #201
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 12,562
There is an online petition circulating calling for Sarah Braasch to be kicked out of Yale.

https://www.change.org/p/dean-lynn-c...o-stay-at-yale
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 02:56 PM   #202
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,616
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is an online petition circulating calling for Sarah Braasch to be kicked out of Yale.

https://www.change.org/p/dean-lynn-c...o-stay-at-yale
Bit harsh - who can honestly say that they haven't used malicious calls to the cops on at least two separate occasions to racially harass people?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:00 PM   #203
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,610
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Agreed. Do you think the university would be wrong to punish the caller who wasted university resources and caused them a tiny bit of negative PR?
Thankfully, it's not my circus, and it's not my monkey.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:05 PM   #204
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,724
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
A second offense does seem to be less forgivable if it involves the same people.
The previous incident was another black student, Reneson, who got lost in the dorm when he came there to attend a meeting that Siyonbola had organized:
Quote:
Reneson said Braasch did not appear to think he was a Yale student and accused him of being an intruder. “Feeling ignored, I went down to the base of the twelfth floor and eleventh floor and turned my back, but she continued to verbally assault me from the twelfth floor claiming that I ‘didn’t belong here’ and I was making her ‘uncomfortable,’” Reneson told the newspaper.
"Uncomfortable" is the new black?

And yes, from that it's clear she must have known Siyonbola.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is an online petition circulating calling for Sarah Braasch to be kicked out of Yale.

https://www.change.org/p/dean-lynn-c...o-stay-at-yale
Kicking her out seems wholly justified to me.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:06 PM   #205
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,567
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Bit harsh - who can honestly say that they haven't used malicious calls to the cops on at least two separate occasions to racially harass people?
It really is hard to avoid in today's society.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:06 PM   #206
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,724
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Bit harsh - who can honestly say that they haven't used malicious calls to the cops on at least two separate occasions to racially harass people?
There are posters in this thread who are not used to British sarcasm.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:08 PM   #207
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,616
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There are posters in this thread who are not used to British sarcasm.
I'm trying to educate them with a really obvious starting point...
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:29 PM   #208
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,156
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought that there was more than meets the eye in the OP.

If these women knew each other then ...
Does not appear to be the case, but who knows? From the Yale newspaper:

Quote:
Reneson told the News that Braasch did not appear to believe that he was a Yale student trying to enter the HGS common room for a meeting, and instead accused him of being an intruder.

Reneson said that Braasch then left the area, and Siyonbola subsequently showed up to begin the meeting. But, according to the complaint, four police officers then showed up in HGS to inspect a “suspicious character” on the twelfth floor. According to the complaint, shortly after establishing that Reneson was a Yale student invited by Siyonbola for a meeting in HGS, the police left.
So according to Reneson himself, Braasch did not meet Siyonbola on that occasion.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 03:42 PM   #209
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,549
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Because they could not find her in their database, because her name was misspelled. And anyway, I'm just rebutting the rather silly claim that campus police have no right to ask anyone for ID.
It's not entirely clear from the articles I've read whether they could not find it, or simply would not accept the discrepancy. Either way, this was a couple of steps further than it should have gone anyway. She was at home. She had a reasonable account of what she was doing, she had a room key, and she had a student ID card. Do you suppose this is the first time ever that the enormous database of Yale University has contained a misspelling? Did they think her key card was a forgery? Did they think her student ID was a forgery? What did everyone involved think she was doing there? What reasonable suspicion of a crime survived that far into the process? The police were called because someone saw her sleeping in a common room. The only possible reason for that being anything but a normal event would be if she did not reside in the place and had no other place to sleep. But she had a room key and a room and obviously a place to sleep. At the very least it is unarguably obvious that the police essentially presumed from the very start of the incident that she was lying and that that they would not only not accept anything she said, but would not accept any evidence that she herself provided.

I'm glad the police reprimanded the other student for complaining and wasting their time, but I think they should reprimand themselves too for failing to think.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 04:47 PM   #210
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,159
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
From reading that article, I don't get away with the impression that she disowns that argument as only made for the debate.
That article was clickbait. Of course they won't give that impression. It would draw less traffic.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 04:48 PM   #211
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,724
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's not entirely clear from the articles I've read whether they could not find it, or simply would not accept the discrepancy. Either way, this was a couple of steps further than it should have gone anyway. She was at home. She had a reasonable account of what she was doing, she had a room key, and she had a student ID card. Do you suppose this is the first time ever that the enormous database of Yale University has contained a misspelling? Did they think her key card was a forgery? Did they think her student ID was a forgery? What did everyone involved think she was doing there? What reasonable suspicion of a crime survived that far into the process? The police were called because someone saw her sleeping in a common room. The only possible reason for that being anything but a normal event would be if she did not reside in the place and had no other place to sleep. But she had a room key and a room and obviously a place to sleep.
Plus, according to this heavy.com article, she had books and a notebook with her in the common room.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
At the very least it is unarguably obvious that the police essentially presumed from the very start of the incident that she was lying and that that they would not only not accept anything she said, but would not accept any evidence that she herself provided.
Or they were on their usual power trip. Never let an opportunity go by to make ordinary citizens feel like they're living in a police state.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm glad the police reprimanded the other student for complaining and wasting their time, but I think they should reprimand themselves too for failing to think.
I'm still waiting for the story where the bigoted complainant has to go down to the station for filing a false report and gets to spend a night in jail there.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 04:49 PM   #212
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,724
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That article was clickbait. Of course they won't give that impression. It would draw less traffic.


That article was Braasch' own writing, for the Humanist Society. The subject was anti-burqa laws.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 10th May 2018 at 04:50 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:21 PM   #213
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'm a little surprised you're so easygoing.

Using security resources to intentionally harass a fellow student? Especially after her prior incident, I think expulsion should be on the table.
I don't have more facts than are on the table in this thread. If the woman has been harassing black students, making multiple unwarranted calls to police, sure. We don't have a lot of that in evidence yet though it wouldn't surprise me to find it.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:36 PM   #214
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Breitbart had an article on this. Here's the most up-voted comment:

"Unclear why they refused to leave her alone"

My guess ?
She acted like a Black Female

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/0...#disqus_thread
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:38 PM   #215
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,973
America needs stiff new laws against racism because things aren't working right. The caller needs to be doing serious prison time and maybe the cops as well. The penalties for treating the other races poorly need to be greatly increased.

White people need to be severely punished when they are bad towards blacks and other colors. Black people need to be severely punished for being bad to whites and other races. Punishment can be lesser only if you are bad towards your own race. That is wrong but less wrong.

If you are bad towards other races while in prison then you need to go to solitary confinement.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:49 PM   #216
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No it's not.
Because news media that cite unnamed sources, despite their reputation are writing fake news if it doesn't suit your bias?
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:53 PM   #217
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
...

So according to Reneson himself, Braasch did not meet Siyonbola on that occasion.
Siyonbola said herself on the video she believed but wasn't sure the white woman was the same one. I assume she fit the description her fellow classmate gave.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:54 PM   #218
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,973
I don't think I've ever read a news story about a black person calling police because a white person (or other race) was sleeping. I suspect it's because blacks just let other races keep on sleeping and don't call the police. Also too the Mexicans and the Irish don't call the police when they see a white sleeper.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 06:54 PM   #219
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
America needs stiff new laws against racism because things aren't working right. The caller needs to be doing serious prison time and maybe the cops as well. The penalties for treating the other races poorly need to be greatly increased.

White people need to be severely punished when they are bad towards blacks and other colors. Black people need to be severely punished for being bad to whites and other races. Punishment can be lesser only if you are bad towards your own race. That is wrong but less wrong.

If you are bad towards other races while in prison then you need to go to solitary confinement.
Is that pile of straw you are on comfy?
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 07:17 PM   #220
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,973
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is that pile of straw you are on comfy?
Can you link to a news story about a black person calling police because a white person was asleep and suspicious?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 07:56 PM   #221
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can you link to a news story about a black person calling police because a white person was asleep and suspicious?
Do you think anyone is saying:
Quote:
White people need to be severely punished when they are bad towards blacks and other colors. Black people need to be severely punished for being bad to whites and other races. Punishment can be lesser only if you are bad towards your own race. That is wrong but less wrong.
If that was your opinion and not sarcasm, then my bad. It sounded like sarcasm.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 08:21 PM   #222
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,645
Questions: Don't most dorms at large colleges -- particularly a well-funded place like Yale -- have staffed front desks, resident advisors, etc.? If you thought somebody was in a place they didn't belong, aren't there a lot of people to talk to before you call the cops?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 08:58 PM   #223
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,828
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Questions: Don't most dorms at large colleges -- particularly a well-funded place like Yale -- have staffed front desks, resident advisors, etc.? If you thought somebody was in a place they didn't belong, aren't there a lot of people to talk to before you call the cops?
Western, where my son went, there was a front desk only staffed during the day. There was an RA, on every floor IIRC.

It wasn't hard to get in the common area, just follow someone in. But you couldn't get in a room without a key.

OTOH, there were safety issues in the bathrooms, rare but not unheard of, which weren't locked. Dorms have their problems.

Calling the cops on someone who fell asleep studying is just BS.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2018, 11:25 PM   #224
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,226
I was once visiting William and Mary College and was sleeping where I should not have been. On the lawn in front of a dorm building, face down, and clutching the remains of a forty-ounce bottle of beer.

The officer who woke me up asked if I was a student, I was not, asked why I was there, I was visiting a friend who lived in the dorm, and carded me to make sure I was legal to be drinking. Then he asked me to walk to my friends's room with him. I did, and once they realized it wasn't me pranking them, the cop simply deposited me in the dorm-room.

The cop didn't run my license for priors, or ID any of the guys in the dorm rom, most of whom didn't belong in that dorm building.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 12:05 AM   #225
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,304
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What do you think is the purpose of a student ID?
Proves you are a student so you can get discount.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 01:20 AM   #226
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,718
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If the woman was identified by a resident as not being someone who lived there, I think its reasonable to ask for ID. Then give the caller holy hell for harassing the poor woman and wasting the cops time
I agree with this, but from a UK perspective and as such I have to acknowledge that my perception of the police is going to be very different. We'd generally consider the intervention of a police officer or cso preferable to someone confronting a person they believe to be acting suspiciously themselves. If the suspected person is up to no good the police are best placed to deal with them, if it is a mistake, or malicious reporting, our police are trained to not escalate the situation (and generally behave in a courteous and respectful way to the public).

The problem here (and in the Starbucks case) in my opinion is far less that you have a few random people calling the police on others apparently because of their skin colour, and far more the divide between the police and the public, particular with the black community.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 01:38 AM   #227
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,774
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Breitbart had an article on this. Here's the most up-voted comment:

"Unclear why they refused to leave her alone"

My guess ?
She acted like a Black Female

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/0...#disqus_thread


She was uppity.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 01:40 AM   #228
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,774
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because news media that cite unnamed sources, despite their reputation are writing fake news if it doesn't suit your bias?
How can it be reliable with just a vague source like that?

It's as bad as Trump's 'people are saying'
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 01:46 AM   #229
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,774
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree with this, but from a UK perspective and as such I have to acknowledge that my perception of the police is going to be very different. We'd generally consider the intervention of a police officer or cso preferable to someone confronting a person they believe to be acting suspiciously themselves. If the suspected person is up to no good the police are best placed to deal with them, if it is a mistake, or malicious reporting, our police are trained to not escalate the situation (and generally behave in a courteous and respectful way to the public).
What rubbish. From a UK perspective If you think someone is where they shouldn't be ask who they are unless they are breaking in, then it a police matter.

Trespass in the UK is not a criminal matter, it is a civil matter, the police can't remove anyone simply trespassing. Theycwill attend to ensure that an attempt to remove a trespasser doesn't involve a 'breach of the peace' or an assault by either party involved.

Breaking and Entering however is criminal.

eta Trespassing on railway property is a criminal offence and the railways have their own Constabulary with full police powers.
Same for MOD property and Nuclear Power Stations), they too have their own civil police forces

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 11th May 2018 at 01:50 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 01:59 AM   #230
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,567
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree with this, but from a UK perspective and as such I have to acknowledge that my perception of the police is going to be very different. We'd generally consider the intervention of a police officer or cso preferable to someone confronting a person they believe to be acting suspiciously themselves. If the suspected person is up to no good the police are best placed to deal with them, if it is a mistake, or malicious reporting, our police are trained to not escalate the situation (and generally behave in a courteous and respectful way to the public).
What does "acting suspiciously" have to do with this case? What does it have to do with the Starbucks case you mentioned? Would you really expect the manager of a coffee shop, restaurant, or store to call the police before asking someone to leave? Would you really expect a university student - particularly a 30-something graduate student - to call the police on someone sleeping in a common area?

Yeah, if someone is believed to be committing a [real] crime, it would often be considered unsafe to attempt to intervene, and in the absence of ongoing violence (which any of us would hopefully try to stop if possible) it would be advisable to let the police deal with the problem. But we're not talking about real crimes here. We're talking about the equivalent of asking someone not to let their dog crap on your lawn, and only a loony would call the cops to handle that.

And I can't stress this enough: Leave people alone when they're sleeping unless their doing so is causing an actual problem. Don't ask them for their name or ID. Don't look through their stuff to find out who they are and if they belong. Unless you have reason to think they're sick or injured, again, leave them alone.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:00 AM   #231
dann
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,699
This story and the one about the two guys at Starbucks remind me of a personal anecdote:
The first time my (Afro)-Cuban girlfriend was in Copenhagen, we lost her passport and other papers in a shopping mall. In order to get new ones at the Cuban embassy, she went to the flat of one of her students (she was a teacher of Afro-Cuban folkloric dances: rumba & orishas) a few hundred meters away because there was a shop nearby that made passport photos.
She visited the alumna, got her photos and was then distracted by some shops when it suddenly occurred to her that she had lost her way. To her, all the houses looked like the houses in my street, and not only did she not have her papers, she didn´t have a cell phone yet, she’d forgotten the name of my street, and she only spoke Spanish. Her anxiety grew, and she tried to talk to the very few other black women in the street, expecting them (for no logical reason) to be more likely to speak Spanish than the white Danes. She ended up having a nervous breakdown in a shop where another black woman, a sales assistant who also didn’t speak a word of Spanish, called the police. They showed up but also no español, so they looked inside her shopping bag and found a receipt from a mall close to my house. They took her there and then let her out of the car when she somehow managed to make them understand that she could find her way home from there. (She didn’t want to be taken home in a police car!)
So without establishing her identity, her (= my) address, how she came to be in Copenhagen without any papers, they simply helped a distressed person in need of assistance.
As upsetting as the whole experience was for her, it made her lose all suspicion of Danish authorities and ordinary Danes (not that this is always recommendable).
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:02 AM   #232
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,718
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What rubbish. From a UK perspective If you think someone is where they shouldn't be ask who they are unless they are breaking in, then it a police matter.

Trespass in the UK is not a criminal matter, it is a civil matter, the police can't remove anyone simply trespassing. Theycwill attend to ensure that an attempt to remove a trespasser doesn't involve a 'breach of the peace' or an assault by either party involved.

Breaking and Entering however is criminal.

I was speaking generally and said "acting suspiciously" rather than trespass specifically. The highlighted was pretty much the significant part of my point anyway, that the police keep the situation from escalating rather than escalating it themselves.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:09 AM   #233
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,163
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
.........Breaking and Entering however is criminal.........
I used to think so, but Anglolwayer, formerly of this parish, pointed out that there is no such offense in UK law. I know it's an offense in Australia, BTW, but it isn't here. It's covered by burglary.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:13 AM   #234
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,163
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
America needs stiff new laws against racism because things aren't working right.......
You may well be right, I don't know.

Quote:
The caller needs to be doing serious prison time and maybe the cops as well. The penalties for treating the other races poorly need to be greatly increased........
You already lock up far too many people for far too long. Don't make a bad situation worse.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:14 AM   #235
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,610
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I used to think so, but Anglolwayer, formerly of this parish, pointed out that there is no such offense in UK law. I know it's an offense in Australia, BTW, but it isn't here. It's covered by burglary.
Seems like a pointless distinction, for most conversations. Different terminology for the same kind of offense.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:30 AM   #236
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,163
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like a pointless distinction, for most conversations. Different terminology for the same kind of offense.
There either is such an offense, or there isn't. There isn't.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:33 AM   #237
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,616
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like a pointless distinction, for most conversations. Different terminology for the same kind of offense.
I'm not sure - presumably squatters might be charged with this as well as burglars.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:43 AM   #238
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,509
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How much would 11% change the amount you might be willing to wager on the odds?




They are selecting for intelligent young people with an eagerness to learn new things and assimilate new ideas, so that isn't much of a surprise.

If you want to go to a school that swings the other way there's always Oral Roberts or Bob Jones, etc..
both of whom I must submit both went both ways and loved getting to the bottom of things.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 02:47 AM   #239
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,718
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
What does "acting suspiciously" have to do with this case? What does it have to do with the Starbucks case you mentioned? Would you really expect the manager of a coffee shop, restaurant, or store to call the police before asking someone to leave? Would you really expect a university student - particularly a 30-something graduate student - to call the police on someone sleeping in a common area?

Yeah, if someone is believed to be committing a [real] crime, it would often be considered unsafe to attempt to intervene, and in the absence of ongoing violence (which any of us would hopefully try to stop if possible) it would be advisable to let the police deal with the problem. But we're not talking about real crimes here. We're talking about the equivalent of asking someone not to let their dog crap on your lawn, and only a loony would call the cops to handle that.

And I can't stress this enough: Leave people alone when they're sleeping unless their doing so is causing an actual problem. Don't ask them for their name or ID. Don't look through their stuff to find out who they are and if they belong. Unless you have reason to think they're sick or injured, again, leave them alone.
I once had the police called on me for "acting suspiciously" because I was walking to a payphone and back through a residential area, suspicion is usually in the mind of the beholder. I clearly haven't expressed myself well, but my point wasn't about the suspicion (in neither case was it justified) but the response to it, I think a polite enquiry from an impartial police officer is better than confrontation from a random stranger who has already decided you're up to no good.

Now please be clear that I completely understand that the experience of being approached by the police in the US is different to that in the UK, I acknowledge this in my post, particularly for African Americans. It is the fact that the police aren't seen as a neutral third party who attempt to resolve the situation fairly (whether it's a genuine breach of the law, or a racist false accusation) that I think turns a nuisance complaint into a genuinely offensive incident. For example, a polite approach, accepting (due to the complete absence of any evidence of wrong doing) Siyombola's explanation she was entitled to be there and possibly warning the complainant about nuscence calls (depending on the circumstances), would be a much better outcome than when the complainant took it upon herself to scream abuse at a person she felt wasn't entitled to be there.

When I was stopped I was treated politely, my explanation was accepted, I understood that having had a report the police had to follow up but the impression they gave was that they hadn't arrived with the assumption I was doing anything wrong that I had to disprove. It was certainly better than being confronted by a random stranger.

I'm in no way condoning the reports against these people, rather I'm condemning the way the police handled them.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 11th May 2018 at 02:49 AM.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 03:52 AM   #240
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,774
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I used to think so, but Anglolwayer, formerly of this parish, pointed out that there is no such offense in UK law. I know it's an offense in Australia, BTW, but it isn't here. It's covered by burglary.
breaking and entering. n. 1) the criminal act of*entering*a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization. If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary..

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 11th May 2018 at 03:56 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.