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Old 11th May 2018, 03:54 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I was speaking generally and said "acting suspiciously" rather than trespass specifically. The highlighted was pretty much the significant part of my point anyway, that the police keep the situation from escalating rather than escalating it themselves.
But the police can't make someone leave if it is private property and the trespasser hasn't broken in. That's why it takes so long to get rid of squatters or a Traveller's caravan in a field.
You have to go to court to get an eviction order, then you have to serve and enforce it.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:38 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

2:43
"Well I can't say I ever noticed, sir"

And I bet GlennB at least, can guess what that youtube video is before clicking on it...

More seriously, as you say, small children are race-blind. Racism is learned.
The phrase "Wearing a loud in a built up area after the hours of darkness," springs to mind without even having to click on it....
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:54 AM   #243
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I've been wondering how this would have panned out in the UK...

OPERATOR: "999, what's your emergency?"
STUDENT: "There's a person I don't recognise asleep in my halls of residence."
OPERATOR: "And...?"
STUDENT: "They shouldn't be here asleep!"
OPERATOR: "This number is for emergencies only. I suggest you contact your building or university security* and stop wasting our time."
STUDENT: "No, send the polcie to deal with thsi sleeping person."
OPERATOR: I can send the police to arrest you for making bogus emergecy calls, if you like...?"

* Which will be some bored and absolutely unarmed bloke in a hi-viz jacket.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:12 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I've been wondering how this would have panned out in the UK...

OPERATOR: "999, what's your emergency?"
STUDENT: "There's a person I don't recognise asleep in my halls of residence."
OPERATOR: "And...?"
STUDENT: "They shouldn't be here asleep!"
OPERATOR: "This number is for emergencies only. I suggest you contact your building or university security* and stop wasting our time."
STUDENT: "No, send the polcie to deal with thsi sleeping person."
OPERATOR: I can send the police to arrest you for making bogus emergecy calls, if you like...?"

* Which will be some bored and absolutely unarmed bloke in a hi-viz jacket.
The one flaw in this, as far as I can see, is that I'm pretty sure the police in this case were "university security."
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:15 AM   #245
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At our university, it’s a matter of school policy that a student must display their student ID on request from any university official, not just we police.
Failure to do so may result in your arrest for trespassing...
And internal disciplinary action from the school’s judicial administrator.

As I mentioned in my first post, it’s not at all unusual for homeless people to try to crash in various places on campus. In addition, we get thieves, sex offenders, and other folks attempting to “tailgate” into the dorms (card access) for various purposes.

We cannot assume, when we get called, that the person is indeed authorized to be there. We’ve had people maintain that they are in fact students when they were not (usually in possession of a long-expired ID.
We’ve had drug-dealing gang members “shacking up” with female students.

The person who reported this to the police to begin with may indeed be a racist.... We can’t make such judgements. We verify the person belongs there and wave by-by. If they do not, we run a record check and our own files for previous warnings.
If they are wanted or have had previous warnings, they are arrested. If not, they get a written “No Trespass” warning and again, we wave by-by.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:20 AM   #246
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And herein we come to the question of technically vs practically.

Many areas are "Show ID on request areas" where, technically speaking, you can be asked to show an ID. This is a common enough rule in a lot of high security areas. Military bases, hospitals, probably most college campuses do have at least some areas where access is limited so having to show an ID is probably something everyone can wrap their heads around on a technical level.

But if you're only doing it to one demographic, does "technically correct" still apply?
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:23 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
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I AGREE

2:43
"Well I can't say I ever noticed, sir"

And I bet GlennB at least, can guess what that youtube video is before clicking on it...

More seriously, as you say, small children are race-blind. Racism is learned.
As it turns out, Constable Savage actually exists and is (was?) employed by the Met. (this Facebook video is a must-see).
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:09 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I once had the police called on me for "acting suspiciously" because I was walking to a payphone and back through a residential area, suspicion is usually in the mind of the beholder. I clearly haven't expressed myself well, but my point wasn't about the suspicion (in neither case was it justified) but the response to it, I think a polite enquiry from an impartial police officer is better than confrontation from a random stranger who has already decided you're up to no good.

Now please be clear that I completely understand that the experience of being approached by the police in the US is different to that in the UK, I acknowledge this in my post, particularly for African Americans. It is the fact that the police aren't seen as a neutral third party who attempt to resolve the situation fairly (whether it's a genuine breach of the law, or a racist false accusation) that I think turns a nuisance complaint into a genuinely offensive incident. For example, a polite approach, accepting (due to the complete absence of any evidence of wrong doing) Siyombola's explanation she was entitled to be there and possibly warning the complainant about nuscence calls (depending on the circumstances), would be a much better outcome than when the complainant took it upon herself to scream abuse at a person she felt wasn't entitled to be there.

When I was stopped I was treated politely, my explanation was accepted, I understood that having had a report the police had to follow up but the impression they gave was that they hadn't arrived with the assumption I was doing anything wrong that I had to disprove. It was certainly better than being confronted by a random stranger.

I'm in no way condoning the reports against these people, rather I'm condemning the way the police handled them.
Agreed. Due to my line of work (building contractor), I am often in empty properties, sometimes at night with a flashlight, and have had police called on me easily 10 times. They are normally polite, check my ID, and accept my explanation (checking status of project after hours, responding to service call, etc). Sometimes, being the USA, you do get the guns-drawn treatment. Once I had a small cordless drill in my hand when confronted, which I was told looked like a handgun. That one did not go well.

I sympathize with police when they are called out. They do not know what they are walking into and some will play it more cautious than others. If Siyombola had her papers and books around her, I would think the police would have no reason to suspect she was anything but a student, and should have given her the benefit of the doubt. If not, they may have been justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student, and not (for instance) borrowing her former roomate's key to crash at the dorm.
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:34 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yes, I have said before that the UK police complaints procedure is only good in comparison to the US.

See the death of Ian Tomlinson as well. And PC Harwood's previous disciplinary record.
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:47 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. Due to my line of work (building contractor), I am often in empty properties, sometimes at night with a flashlight, and have had police called on me easily 10 times. They are normally polite, check my ID, and accept my explanation (checking status of project after hours, responding to service call, etc). Sometimes, being the USA, you do get the guns-drawn treatment. Once I had a small cordless drill in my hand when confronted, which I was told looked like a handgun. That one did not go well.

I sympathize with police when they are called out. They do not know what they are walking into and some will play it more cautious than others. If Siyombola had her papers and books around her, I would think the police would have no reason to suspect she was anything but a student, and should have given her the benefit of the doubt. If not, they may have been justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student, and not (for instance) borrowing her former roomate's key to crash at the dorm.
You note that the police generally accept your explanation. But this is the very thing that distinguishes this incident from yours. An explanation was made, to the accuser, and to the police. In the case of the police they got an explanation which they did not accept. She produced a room key and entered her room, which they did not accept. She produced a student ID which they did not accept.

I don't recall seeing anything about the key belonging to a former roommate. Was it a double room? I may have missed that. Do you have a citation on that? In any case, if she had a key to a room where there is a bed, and was "crashing at the dorm," it might be presumed that she had permission to use the room. Are guests in dorm rooms forbidden? Did the police presume that she had stolen the key? You say they were justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student. Does that mean that they were justified in presuming that the ID was false, and disbelieving that she was in her room when she was in her room? They certainly exercised an unusual amount of diligence and disbelief with respect to everything Siyambola said or did, while apparently not doubting the integrity of her accuser. However you spin this, the police came into the situation with the assumption that Siyambola said or did was a fabrication, and ready to accept the story of a third party that she was a criminal, and unwilling to accept anything but another third party's proof that she was not.

Edit to add: I have not found any reference to the room in question being double, but may have missed it. I do find a specific reference to the fact that throughout all this the police did not ask the other student for her student ID or room key. Maybe if they had, they'd have realized that this wasn't the first time she'd wasted their time calling on a black student in the dorm!
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:53 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The one flaw in this, as far as I can see, is that I'm pretty sure the police in this case were "university security."
I just note that many campuses -- and Yale is one -- have fully accredited, armed police departments with full law enforcement powers. They can arrest you and they can shoot you.
https://your.yale.edu/community/publ...ice-department
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:55 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.........If not, they may have been justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student, and not (for instance) borrowing her former roomate's key to crash at the dorm.
That's police business, is it? Really?
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:07 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That's police business, is it? Really?
Trespassing usually is police business, yes. If school policy prohibits loaning out room keys to non-students in this way, then it's trespassing, and it's police business if the trespass is reported to them.

Obviously policy is going to vary from school to school, but I bet most schools have something along the lines of dormitory privileges not being transferable to non-students.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:10 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You note that the police generally accept your explanation. But this is the very thing that distinguishes this incident from yours. An explanation was made, to the accuser, and to the police. In the case of the police they got an explanation which they did not accept. She produced a room key and entered her room, which they did not accept. She produced a student ID which they did not accept.

I don't recall seeing anything about the key belonging to a former roommate. Was it a double room? I may have missed that. Do you have a citation on that? In any case, if she had a key to a room where there is a bed, and was "crashing at the dorm," it might be presumed that she had permission to use the room. Are guests in dorm rooms forbidden? Did the police presume that she had stolen the key? You say they were justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student. Does that mean that they were justified in presuming that the ID was false, and disbelieving that she was in her room when she was in her room? They certainly exercised an unusual amount of diligence and disbelief with respect to everything Siyambola said or did, while apparently not doubting the integrity of her accuser. However you spin this, the police came into the situation with the assumption that Siyambola said or did was a fabrication, and ready to accept the story of a third party that she was a criminal, and unwilling to accept anything but another third party's proof that she was not.
I used the 'loaning key' strictly as a 'for example', and one that is common, IME.

My daughter recently completed her undergrad and is in law school now. She has shared a dorm with one or two other students every year, so perhaps I am assuming too much that this was not a private dorm.

AFAIK, overnight guests are not normally allowed in dorms. My kid's schools were excruciatingly clear on that, anyway.

When I say police checked my ID, they ran it through their system, not just looked at it. I have also shown texts, cel phone calls, and work orders to support that I had business on the properties. So yes, they accepted my explanation. They also required the exact same support as they required of this student.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:13 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That's police business, is it? Really?
For campus police? Absolutely. They are extremely concerned with unknown (to the school) persons running around dormitories in the middle of the night. They don't necessarily trust the students to determine who is safe to be there or not. Can't blame them, really. You are exposing other students to an unvetted stranger in a co-ed dorm.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:15 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Proves you are a student so you can get discount.
That's all I ever used it for. Hell, don't forget the Republicans passed legislation saying it wasn't adequate as voter ID.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:20 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How can it be reliable with just a vague source like that?

It's as bad as Trump's 'people are saying'
Not worth a side track but those two things are far far from equivalent.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:26 AM   #258
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Sheesh, you guys really are far too strait-laced.

At uni in the late 70s/ early 80s there was a fire alarm in the middle of the night in the girls dorm. More males than females evacuated the building. THAT's the way uni should be.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:27 AM   #259
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A university has every right to control who allowed on what parts of their campus and to implement reasonable methods for enforcing that. Asking a student to "show their ID" is perfectly acceptable in the abstract.

A university has the responsibility to enforce those regulations fairly and not in an discriminatory fashion. Asking a black student to show their ID in a context where a white student wouldn't is not acceptable.

These are not contradictory statements.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:28 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For campus police?.......
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it. You people really can be weird sometimes.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:36 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Sheesh, you guys really are far too strait-laced.

At uni in the late 70s/ early 80s there was a fire alarm in the middle of the night in the girls dorm. More males than females evacuated the building. THAT's the way uni should be.
It was a big deal somewhere in the 70s when dorms changed to coed (mixed gender). I think coed is the standard today with maybe some all women/all men dorms still an option.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:36 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The one flaw in this, as far as I can see, is that I'm pretty sure the police in this case were "university security."
Yes, as per MikeG's sentiments, that's what I was hinting at.

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Old 11th May 2018, 08:39 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it. You people really can be weird sometimes.
It's not much different from having a police department for a city. Some universities have city sized populations. If you have 15,000 students, it makes sense to have a police department for that population.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:44 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it. You people really can be weird sometimes.
Campus police are the functional equivalent of a municipal force. Cars, guns, powers of arrest, the works. My assumption is that a dedicated force for the campus provides much faster response times and officers are familiar with the ins-and-outs of the campus, far more than a town cop would be.

In my oldest's senior year, there was some guy masturbating...in public...outside the gym where the women were working out. He was watching them through the windows. I'm kind of glad there are cops on school grounds sometimes.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:46 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it.
It's not that odd a concept. We had them from 1825 to 2003.

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Old 11th May 2018, 09:10 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Campus police are the functional equivalent of a municipal force. Cars, guns, powers of arrest, the works.....
Exactly, you make my point for me. It's a crazy idea.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:16 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it. You people really can be weird sometimes.
Unlike the UK, policing in the U.S. is local and decentralized. There are specialized federal police departments with limited jurisdiction, like the U.S. Park Police and Secret Service Uniformed Division, but no national police force. There are as many as 18,000 (no one seems to know for sure) independent police departments in the U.S., ranging from the giant NYPD and LAPD to a village cop and his dog. At big state universities in rural areas, the campus police department might well be bigger, better trained and better equipped than the local cops or county sheriff. And they are certainly better able to deal with student conflicts and college policies. Most colleges don't want the local cops intruding (I use the word deliberately) on their property without good reason.

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Old 11th May 2018, 09:19 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Unlike the UK, policing in the U.S. is local and decentralized.........
You meant "like the UK, policing ........". We have nearly 50 police forces here.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:21 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Exactly, you make my point for me. It's a crazy idea.
Why? A U.S. college campus can have the population and land area of a small city. Why shouldn't it have police?
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:21 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's not that odd a concept. We had them from 1825 to 2003.
Apparently the Cambridge version is still going, but that doesn't stop them being obscure historical anomalies. If "real crime" happens within university grounds, it's not their responsibility.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:23 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Apparently the Cambridge version is still going,
The where version?

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Old 11th May 2018, 09:24 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You meant "like the UK, policing ........". We have nearly 50 police forces here.
Aww, that's cute. We have well over fifteen thousand.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:25 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why? A U.S. college campus can have the population and land area of a small city. Why shouldn't it have police?
Because from a UK perspective, apart from the City of London Police (because... history), "small cities" don't get dedicated police forces, either. They're all covered by the greater county or regional police forces.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:26 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You meant "like the UK, policing ........". We have nearly 50 police forces here.
"Nearly" 50 (actually 45) for the entire UK vs. 18,000? You kinda make my point. And your territorial forces are regional; their jurisdication isn't limited to a town or city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_en...United_Kingdom
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:26 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You meant "like the UK, policing ........". We have nearly 50 police forces here.
Plus specialised forces as already mentioned Railway, MOD, Nuclear Energy and Ports all have police forces.

MOD Police patrol and guard military installations, they are not the same as Military Police.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:26 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Aww, that's cute. We have well over fifteen thousand.
Yes, and that seems to be the source of a lot of your problems.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:30 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, and that seems to be the source of a lot of your problems.
Agree completely.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:31 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, and that seems to be the source of a lot of your problems.
Perhaps, and I consider that a valid issue. I personally would like to see a more centralized police system.

But the idea of campus police for huge universities was called "bizarre" and "crazy," and the point was that it wasn't any crazier than a municipal police force.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:32 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How can it be reliable with just a vague source like that?

It's as bad as Trump's 'people are saying'

No it isn't.

Not even vaguely similar.

Reputable news outlets know the source, they are just not publicizing it.

"People are saying" is meaningless. There are millions of "people", and some of the are probably "saying" just about anything.

"People are saying" offers no source at all, much less one which is known to the reporter.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 11th May 2018 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:32 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, and that seems to be the source of a lot of your problems.
You're right about that. There is a strong argument to be made that the smallest local police departments should be merged into bigger, better-trained county-wide forces. But the big-city departments would certainly insist on being exempted, and the small towns would fight with each other for resources.
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