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Old 11th May 2018, 09:34 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I sympathize with police when they are called out. They do not know what they are walking into and some will play it more cautious than others. If Siyombola had her papers and books around her, I would think the police would have no reason to suspect she was anything but a student, and should have given her the benefit of the doubt. If not, they may have been justified in calling in the ID to make sure she was an active student, and not (for instance) borrowing her former roomate's key to crash at the dorm.
According to the Heavy.Com:
Quote:
After reviewing the scene in the 12th floor common room and seeing a computer, books and notebooks in addition to a blanket and pillow on the couch, the investigating officer determined that the person who had been sleeping in the common room was likely a student, so the officer asked the caller to wait in her room on the 12th floor.”
So, yes, she had. And then she showed a functioning room key and then also her Yale student ID. With all that corroborating evidence she belongs there, they still insist on running the ID through the administration and goof up because of a spelling variant in her first name - I guess it's just not enough that her last name and her student-# and her DOB and whatnot do match.

Here's the video she posted. At the 2:00 min mark, she hands over the ID, and then around the 13:00 min mark, Uncle Tom, sorry, the supervisor, who presumably has been talking with Braasch, comes in and gets in her face and berates her, while the copper who took her ID still hasn't validated it.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:34 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
At our university, it’s a matter of school policy that a student must display their student ID on request from any university official, not just we police.
Failure to do so may result in your arrest for trespassing...
And internal disciplinary action from the school’s judicial administrator.
Even in your own dorm building?
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:36 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
.........the idea of campus police for huge universities was called "bizarre" and "crazy," and the point was that it wasn't any crazier than a municipal police force.
Indeed. It is bizarre and crazy that universities have their own police force. It is also bizarre and crazy that individual towns and cities have their own forces....just not quite so bizarre and crazy as a campus having an independent force.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:42 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, I have said before that the UK police complaints procedure is only good in comparison to the US.

See the death of Ian Tomlinson as well. And PC Harwood's previous disciplinary record.
The real-life Constable Joshua Savage I posted about was charged by CPS in March 2017 for various crimes.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:42 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Even in your own dorm building?
Begs the question. How do I know you belong in this dorm if I don't know your identity?
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:43 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed. It is bizarre and crazy that universities have their own police force. It is also bizarre and crazy that individual towns and cities have their own forces....just not quite so bizarre and crazy as a campus having an independent force.
TIL that the Metropolitan Police are bizarre and crazy.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:46 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Even in your own dorm building?
It can be a real pain when they want to see it in the showers.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:47 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed. It is bizarre and crazy that universities have their own police force. It is also bizarre and crazy that individual towns and cities have their own forces....just not quite so bizarre and crazy as a campus having an independent force.
I realize that you think that way (I do a little bit.) But I'd like you to cite reasons for it being "crazy and bizarre" beyond your own experience.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:51 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed. It is bizarre and crazy that universities have their own police force. It is also bizarre and crazy that individual towns and cities have their own forces....just not quite so bizarre and crazy as a campus having an independent force.
Again, why?
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:51 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TIL that the Metropolitan Police are bizarre and crazy.
When I was in a dorm years ago, the hallway in the morning was full of students either going to or coming from the showers (in various stages of undress, which wasn't really an issue, everybody had their own **** to deal with, nobody really cared.)

Carrying soap, towel, toothbrush, etc. etc. you would need a creative place for a card. and as others have said, campus police never accosted me, my card was used for campus services, like health clinic care and discounts.

ETA: This was a response to the wrong post, sorry.
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Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 11th May 2018 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:55 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TIL that the Metropolitan Police are bizarre and crazy.
You have no idea how accurate that is.
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:56 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I realize that you think that way (I do a little bit.) But I'd like you to cite reasons for it being "crazy and bizarre" beyond your own experience.

It depends on reporting lines. There's a possibility of conflict of interest.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:07 AM   #293
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Well just off the top of my head without a minute's thought....

- co-ordination & communication issues
-efficiency issues
-jurisdiction conflicts/ confusion/ difficulties
-varying standards of training
-differing/ conflicting protocols
-varying leadership ethos
-poor leadership more likely (if you've got 15,000 commanders the odds are that there are lots more poor ones than if you have 1500, say)
-creation of fiefdoms
-an environment in which rogue elements can flourish

I'm sure those of you who have to put up with this system can think of way more than that.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:08 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TIL that the Metropolitan Police are bizarre and crazy.
I doubt you'll find anyone arguing with this. (I had to look up TIL before responding, just in case).
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:13 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well just off the top of my head without a minute's thought....

- co-ordination & communication issues
-efficiency issues
-jurisdiction conflicts/ confusion/ difficulties
-varying standards of training
-differing/ conflicting protocols

-varying leadership ethos
-poor leadership more likely (if you've got 15,000 commanders the odds are that there are lots more poor ones than if you have 1500, say)
-creation of fiefdoms
-an environment in which rogue elements can flourish

I'm sure those of you who have to put up with this system can think of way more than that.
Those are my main issues. I know in the Bay Area in Northern California, you can pass between 4 or 5 different municipalities driving in 20 minutes, all of which might have independent police. They should be run at least by the county, IMO. But, as pointed out in another thread, traffic violations can be a big source of income.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:32 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
According to the Heavy.Com:

So, yes, she had. And then she showed a functioning room key and then also her Yale student ID. With all that corroborating evidence she belongs there, they still insist on running the ID through the administration and goof up because of a spelling variant in her first name - I guess it's just not enough that her last name and her student-# and her DOB and whatnot do match.

Here's the video she posted. At the 2:00 min mark, she hands over the ID, and then around the 13:00 min mark, Uncle Tom, sorry, the supervisor, who presumably has been talking with Braasch, comes in and gets in her face and berates her, while the copper who took her ID still hasn't validated it.
As soon as she unlocked her room and showed the ID, the cops should have thanked her for her cooperation and left. Apparently they decided they needed to waste 15 minutes of her time and theirs, because she dared to give them a little attitude about showing the ID in the first place.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:40 AM   #297
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Can't let them get uppity and defy the massa!
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:41 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
As soon as she unlocked her room and showed the ID, the cops should have thanked her for her cooperation and left.

But what if it was a FAKE ID, and also she had taken over someone else's room (presumably by murdering them and chopping them up, putting the body into a tightly sealed metal drum masquerading as traditionally untraditional student furniture by putting a lamp on it)?

Would you really want a KILLER to go free?
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:46 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
But what if it was a FAKE ID, and also she had taken over someone else's room (presumably by murdering them and chopping them up, putting the body into a tightly sealed metal drum masquerading as traditionally untraditional student furniture by putting a lamp on it)?

Would you really want a KILLER to go free?
Sounds like a great screenplay. You better write it before I do.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:47 AM   #300
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Gee whiz!

I went to college and I taught at two different colleges, and I sometimes saw students sleeping in their rooms, in the student union, in the library, in the park, and in class.

And yet, no one ever called the police on any of these people.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:48 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Nearly" 50 (actually 45) for the entire UK vs. 18,000? You kinda make my point. And your territorial forces are regional; their jurisdication isn't limited to a town or city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_en...United_Kingdom
Yes, a colleague whose father was a police sergeant said that was pretty much how the UK police was run in Victorian times.

It's not such a good idea in the 21st Century
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:51 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well just off the top of my head without a minute's thought....

- co-ordination & communication issues
-efficiency issues
-jurisdiction conflicts/ confusion/ difficulties
-varying standards of training
-differing/ conflicting protocols
-varying leadership ethos
-poor leadership more likely (if you've got 15,000 commanders the odds are that there are lots more poor ones than if you have 1500, say)
-creation of fiefdoms
-an environment in which rogue elements can flourish

I'm sure those of you who have to put up with this system can think of way more than that.
IIRC - about half the forces have fewer than ten employees, there are several thousand with one full time equivalent employee. That is not a recipe for good oversight or training.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:53 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
As soon as she unlocked her room and showed the ID, the cops should have thanked her for her cooperation and left. Apparently they decided they needed to waste 15 minutes of her time and theirs, because she dared to give them a little attitude about showing the ID in the first place.
Personally, when they saw the books around her and she said she was a student studying would probably have been a better time for the apology, and maybe a little chat with the complainant about wasting police time, but certainly when she unlocked the door would have been the latest appropriate moment to do so.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:54 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're right about that. There is a strong argument to be made that the smallest local police departments should be merged into bigger, better-trained county-wide forces. But the big-city departments would certainly insist on being exempted, and the small towns would fight with each other for resources.
Well we have organisations like the Greater Manchester police and the Met, so large cities could still have their own force.

Even some of our county forces are joining into larger regional forces because of efficiency.
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:57 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well just off the top of my head without a minute's thought....
.....
The UK and U.S. have fundamentally different histories. You started with an all-powerful monarch who gradually ceded authority to other entities. The U.S. started with independent settlements that merged into colonies and ultimately gave up power to state and federal governments. But even today, the laws that affect citizens most directly are local: public schools, zoning ordinances, real estate taxes, traffic and parking, minor crimes, etc. Even gun laws vary across state, county and city lines. I wonder if a regional police force could be relied upon to enforce the laws reliably when they might differ across dozens of jurisdictions. And you can be sure there would be no support for eliminating local governments.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:02 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Personally, when they saw the books around her and she said she was a student studying would probably have been a better time for the apology, and maybe a little chat with the complainant about wasting police time, but certainly when she unlocked the door would have been the latest appropriate moment to do so.
The books would make it reasonably clear she was a student, but the pillow and blanket might suggest she did not have access to a room, as it looked she was planning to sleep there, not just fell asleep. When she opened her door and showed the ID, yes that should have been enough to end it. Calling in the ID was perhaps an abundance of caution. Arguing about a database typo is getting harassing.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:04 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The UK and U.S. have fundamentally different histories. You started with an all-powerful monarch who gradually ceded authority to other entities. The U.S. started with independent settlements that merged into colonies and ultimately gave up power to state and federal governments. But even today, the laws that affect citizens most directly are local: public schools, zoning ordinances, real estate taxes, traffic and parking, minor crimes, etc. Even gun laws vary across state, county and city lines. I wonder if a regional police force could be relied upon to enforce the laws reliably when they might differ across dozens of jurisdictions. And you can be sure there would be no support for eliminating local governments.
I understand that we start from different historical backgrounds, but so what? Surely any modern democracy looks at what it is doing and asks if it could be doing things better.

We have local governments, town councils, parish councils, and so on, almost entirely disconnected from the police who remain very independent. I mean, you wouldn't want one interest group to gain control of the police force, would you.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:10 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Personally, when they saw the books around her and she said she was a student studying would probably have been a better time for the apology, and maybe a little chat with the complainant about wasting police time, but certainly when she unlocked the door would have been the latest appropriate moment to do so.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I understand that we start from different historical backgrounds, but so what? Surely any modern democracy looks at what it is doing and asks if it could be doing things better.

We have local governments, town councils, parish councils, and so on, almost entirely disconnected from the police who remain very independent. I mean, you wouldn't want one interest group to gain control of the police force, would you.
If you want an eye-opening read - check out the DoJ report on Ferguson PD. It's utterly shocking, and it is one of the larger police forces in the US with around 50 employees
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:15 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is such a bizarre idea, I can barely comprehend it. You people really can be weird sometimes.
It's not all that uncommon. Universities in the US are often pretty much little towns. Depending on the size of the population, the university's own security can become actual police departments, supplementing local departments. In Philadelphia, for example, the University of Pennsylvania (ivy league school) and Drexel (right next to UPenn) each have their own police that are charted to enforce the law like the Philadelphia police. Both even have their own detective squads.

Kinda works out for everyone involved - it lets the university have the police it needs without pulling resources from the locals by constantly making local police address issues involving the university.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:34 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Gee whiz!

I went to college and I taught at two different colleges, and I sometimes saw students sleeping in their rooms, in the student union, in the library, in the park, and in class.

And yet, no one ever called the police on any of these people.
Indeed. I am even pretty sure my university had policies against sleeping in common areas just like Yale, but like many nuisance laws, they don't get enforced in the face of reality. Hell, campus police would occasionally see me and other people throwing snowballs at campus building windows and do nothing. Why? Most campus buildings didn't allow 24-hour access by ID, so if we wanted into the computer lab at 2 AM for instance, you had to hope someone else was in there whose attention you got by throwing snowballs. The campus police understood the campus norms of behavior, and didn't bother people even if those norms were technically against school policy.

Last edited by Fizil; 11th May 2018 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:34 AM   #311
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I did a little more reading on this, and a couple of things are clarified, one being that the complaining student did show her own student ID to the police. Of course its authenticity was not checked. In keeping with policy she was separated from Siyambola during the incident.

I think what some people are still missing is the pervasive, if inadvertent, bias which changes the default assumptions for this sort of event.

Another thing that is clarified, for example, is that Siyanbola did have study materials with her in the common room.

According to her videos and her statements, she was confronted by the complaining student, who stated that she would call the police. We start right out with at least bias, if not outright racism, on the part of Braasch.

Did Siyanbola flee the building, or flee to her room? No. She waited for the police. The default assumption for most persons in such a situation would be that they believe they belong there, and that they are not utterly stupid. But the police did not think this, apparently.

She told the police that the complaining person was known to have done this before, was mentally ill, and harrassing. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She told the police she lived in the dorm and fell asleep while working on the material the police saw surrounding her. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She unlocked her room and went in. The police default position was that she was not the legitimate possessor of the key and was lying about this being her room.

She showed them a student ID. That, by the way, is a plastic laminated card with a name and a picture on it. The police default position is that this is forged because the database is faulty. The fact that the card shows her picture on it, and an unusual name that is easy to get wrong, does not apparently help.

What are our assumptions here, and how do they fit with a modicum of rational thought?

Is Siyambola a squatter on the 12th floor of a dormitory? This would appear to be the initial assumption from the call.

Is Siyambola a complete idiot? That would appear to be the assumption given that she could simply have left the premises before the police arrived. Or could it be that she was surprised by the inability of the police to evaluate the obvious?

Is Siyambola a thief who has stolen a room key? That would appear to be the assumption, given that she went to a room and opened it with a key. If it wasn't her key, it belonged to somebody. Did the police think to consult their vaunted, holy database to figure out whose room it was, or to check whether any room keys had been reported missing, or rooms robbed? What did they think she was doing when she opened the room?

At what point has the default assumption that she's a squatter changed to what must be the default assumption that she is not only a flagrant and persistent liar, but a fraudulent user of college property performing the fraud so systematically that she has brought fake study material, procured a fake key, and produced a fake student ID card?

Maybe it's time to stop reaching for "what-if" and "yes but" outs here, and acknowledge that this incident demonstrates a shameful and stupid inability on the part of many people to think past their biases.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:40 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
This.

There are two political parties in the U.S. : the Democratic Party and the Racist ******** Party.
There is the attitude that got trump elected. Keep it up if you want 4 more years.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:43 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
As soon as she unlocked her room and showed the ID, the cops should have thanked her for her cooperation and left. Apparently they decided they needed to waste 15 minutes of her time and theirs, because she dared to give them a little attitude about showing the ID in the first place.
You pay for attitude when dealing with anyone. Sometimes the price is higher than others but said cost can be avoided by not giving attitude.

Obviously she felt the price was worth it, so I'm okay with her decision.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:47 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You pay for attitude when dealing with anyone. Sometimes the price is higher than others but said cost can be avoided by not giving attitude.
.....
What's "attitude?" If she says "I belong here, I live here, I'm a student here," is that "attitude?" The cops might think so, but for her it's a statement of what she knows are the facts. "Attitude" can itself be a question of perspective.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:47 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What's "attitude?" If she says "I belong here, I live here, I'm a student here," is that "attitude?" The cops might think so, but for her it's a statement of what she knows are the facts. "Attitude" can itself be a question of perspective.
Uppity.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:49 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
There is the attitude that got trump elected. Keep it up if you want 4 more years.
Trump was elected because Obama's voters stayed home. Based on what we're seeing in the special elections so far, that's not going to happen next time around. If he makes it to 2020.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:49 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If you want an eye-opening read - check out the DoJ report on Ferguson PD. It's utterly shocking, and it is one of the larger police forces in the US with around 50 employees
The Baltimore and Chicago police are also easy examples - Chicago in particular ran a black site, complete with torture chamber, until recently.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:50 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I did a little more reading on this, and a couple of things are clarified, one being that the complaining student did show her own student ID to the police. Of course its authenticity was not checked. In keeping with policy she was separated from Siyambola during the incident.

I think what some people are still missing is the pervasive, if inadvertent, bias which changes the default assumptions for this sort of event.

Another thing that is clarified, for example, is that Siyanbola did have study materials with her in the common room.

According to her videos and her statements, she was confronted by the complaining student, who stated that she would call the police. We start right out with at least bias, if not outright racism, on the part of Braasch.

Did Siyanbola flee the building, or flee to her room? No. She waited for the police. The default assumption for most persons in such a situation would be that they believe they belong there, and that they are not utterly stupid. But the police did not think this, apparently.

She told the police that the complaining person was known to have done this before, was mentally ill, and harrassing. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She told the police she lived in the dorm and fell asleep while working on the material the police saw surrounding her. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She unlocked her room and went in. The police default position was that she was not the legitimate possessor of the key and was lying about this being her room.

She showed them a student ID. That, by the way, is a plastic laminated card with a name and a picture on it. The police default position is that this is forged because the database is faulty. The fact that the card shows her picture on it, and an unusual name that is easy to get wrong, does not apparently help.

What are our assumptions here, and how do they fit with a modicum of rational thought?

Is Siyambola a squatter on the 12th floor of a dormitory? This would appear to be the initial assumption from the call.

Is Siyambola a complete idiot? That would appear to be the assumption given that she could simply have left the premises before the police arrived. Or could it be that she was surprised by the inability of the police to evaluate the obvious?

Is Siyambola a thief who has stolen a room key? That would appear to be the assumption, given that she went to a room and opened it with a key. If it wasn't her key, it belonged to somebody. Did the police think to consult their vaunted, holy database to figure out whose room it was, or to check whether any room keys had been reported missing, or rooms robbed? What did they think she was doing when she opened the room?

At what point has the default assumption that she's a squatter changed to what must be the default assumption that she is not only a flagrant and persistent liar, but a fraudulent user of college property performing the fraud so systematically that she has brought fake study material, procured a fake key, and produced a fake student ID card?

Maybe it's time to stop reaching for "what-if" and "yes but" outs here, and acknowledge that this incident demonstrates a shameful and stupid inability on the part of many people to think past their biases.
Dude who reported her was a racist prick. Cops cannot simply put down "didn't like the guy didn't investigate" on the report so they need evidence before moving on.

I know they should have just saw who's feelings were more hurt and picked their side (unless it was the racist then **** him) but sadly society isn't there yet so they had to actually get proof.

I mean I'm no cop but if I was I'd likely want proof the claim was false so I could build evidence that this ******* is making false complaints and use that to justify legal action against him. But I'm just a dumb white (looking, which I'm told is the important part) guy, and the obvious decision is just to ignore this guy and let him keep harassing people, reason being the chips are so ****** to minorities is paramount just to keep them away.

Hey, I'm learning right?
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:50 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I did a little more reading on this, and a couple of things are clarified, one being that the complaining student did show her own student ID to the police. Of course its authenticity was not checked. In keeping with policy she was separated from Siyambola during the incident.

<respectful snip>

At what point has the default assumption that she's a squatter changed to what must be the default assumption that she is not only a flagrant and persistent liar, but a fraudulent user of college property performing the fraud so systematically that she has brought fake study material, procured a fake key, and produced a fake student ID card?

Maybe it's time to stop reaching for "what-if" and "yes but" outs here, and acknowledge that this incident demonstrates a shameful and stupid inability on the part of many people to think past their biases.
And by the same token that the cops checked Siyombola's ID, they should have checked Braasch's ID with the administration. After all, who says she's really a Yale student, and not a squatter who forged an ID card and was upset that "her" couch had been taken?

Siyombola ended her video, after the cops left, with a comment to the effect "this is not the last you've heard of me". This sounds like there's a lawsuit in it that is not going to end well at all for Yale PD.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:52 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Trump was elected because Obama's voters stayed home. Based on what we're seeing in the special elections so far, that's not going to happen next time around. If he makes it to 2020.
Keep thinking that.

Also next time you need a favor from someone, **** talk them constantly, and tell them if they don't help you they are nazis. If you want to be consistent anyway.
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