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Old 11th May 2018, 11:53 AM   #321
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dude who reported her was a racist prick. Cops cannot simply put down "didn't like the guy didn't investigate" on the report so they need evidence before moving on.

I know they should have just saw who's feelings were more hurt and picked their side (unless it was the racist then **** him) but sadly society isn't there yet so they had to actually get proof.

I mean I'm no cop but if I was I'd likely want proof the claim was false so I could build evidence that this ******* is making false complaints and use that to justify legal action against him. But I'm just a dumb white (looking, which I'm told is the important part) guy, and the obvious decision is just to ignore this guy and let him keep harassing people, reason being the chips are so ****** to minorities is paramount just to keep them away.

Hey, I'm learning right?
The person who made the report was a woman, not a dude.

I suggest before you make another angry post on the subject, you should read an article to be familiar with the basic facts of the case.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
There is the attitude that got trump elected. Keep it up if you want 4 more years.
"Why did you make me hit you?" I'm generally uninterested in people who make excuses for political parties that are nakedly white supremacist, such as the current GOP. If they wish to fix that perception, they should stop openly endorsing state violence against random nonwhite people.

You know, take some of that "personal responsibility" they like to blather about when it comes to black/Hispanic/Native American folks who have police roll up and shoot/choke/beat them for no apparent reason.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What's "attitude?" If she says "I belong here, I live here, I'm a student here," is that "attitude?" The cops might think so, but for her it's a statement of what she knows are the facts. "Attitude" can itself be a question of perspective.
In this case, the "attitude" seems to refer to the obvious "angry black woman" stereotype. It must be the woman who was there, who had every right to be there, who had the problem, and not the white lady who calls police when she sees a black person doing normal things.
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:55 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
There is the attitude that got trump elected. Keep it up if you want 4 more years.
i.e., "Don't call them racist or they'll get upset and do even more racist things."
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Old 11th May 2018, 11:57 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dude who reported her was a racist prick. Cops cannot simply put down "didn't like the guy didn't investigate" on the report so they need evidence before moving on.
.....
The complainant was a woman who is also a middle-aged grad student and who has her own checkered history.
http://time.com/5273428/yale-univers...udent-napping/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3984355

It actually surprises me a little that a woman would call the cops on another woman. She can't claim that she feels unsafe, as she might (rationally or not) when she sees an unknown man in her building.

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Old 11th May 2018, 11:59 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Keep thinking that.

Also next time you need a favor from someone, **** talk them constantly, and tell them if they don't help you they are nazis. If you want to be consistent anyway.
Even if they are actually racists and racially harassing people?
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:01 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What's "attitude?" If she says "I belong here, I live here, I'm a student here," is that "attitude?" The cops might think so, but for her it's a statement of what she knows are the facts. "Attitude" can itself be a question of perspective.
Let the I. D. Do the talking. Cops need proof, give it to them and be about your day. Don't and waste time.

You realize if they don't have proof this racist ******* was lying they can't make a complaint against him later right?

Imagine this courtroom.

" we are charging Mr whitey whiteson for making multiple false police reports based on racially motivated reasons. "

"Mr whiteson you should be ashamed of yourself. Let's see the reports officer"

"Well we knew he was just a racist *******, so we didn't really look into it. "

"Well defense council you might as well just take a half day, as we have absolutely no evidence of either the calls or the racial bias"

"But your honor, we just knew he was a racist *******, we didn't think we needed proof. We didn't want to further inconvenience these kids just trying to study"

"I'm sure they will be happy to know that, unfortunately all we have clear evidence of is you ignoring this moron,case dismissed,and next time maybe think with your brain instead of your feelings if you want to actually stop people like this"
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:02 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I did a little more reading on this, and a couple of things are clarified, one being that the complaining student did show her own student ID to the police. Of course its authenticity was not checked. In keeping with policy she was separated from Siyambola during the incident.

I think what some people are still missing is the pervasive, if inadvertent, bias which changes the default assumptions for this sort of event.

Another thing that is clarified, for example, is that Siyanbola did have study materials with her in the common room.

According to her videos and her statements, she was confronted by the complaining student, who stated that she would call the police. We start right out with at least bias, if not outright racism, on the part of Braasch.

Did Siyanbola flee the building, or flee to her room? No. She waited for the police. The default assumption for most persons in such a situation would be that they believe they belong there, and that they are not utterly stupid. But the police did not think this, apparently.

She told the police that the complaining person was known to have done this before, was mentally ill, and harrassing. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She told the police she lived in the dorm and fell asleep while working on the material the police saw surrounding her. The police default position was that she was probably lying.

She unlocked her room and went in. The police default position was that she was not the legitimate possessor of the key and was lying about this being her room.

She showed them a student ID. That, by the way, is a plastic laminated card with a name and a picture on it. The police default position is that this is forged because the database is faulty. The fact that the card shows her picture on it, and an unusual name that is easy to get wrong, does not apparently help.

What are our assumptions here, and how do they fit with a modicum of rational thought?

Is Siyambola a squatter on the 12th floor of a dormitory? This would appear to be the initial assumption from the call.

Is Siyambola a complete idiot? That would appear to be the assumption given that she could simply have left the premises before the police arrived. Or could it be that she was surprised by the inability of the police to evaluate the obvious?

Is Siyambola a thief who has stolen a room key? That would appear to be the assumption, given that she went to a room and opened it with a key. If it wasn't her key, it belonged to somebody. Did the police think to consult their vaunted, holy database to figure out whose room it was, or to check whether any room keys had been reported missing, or rooms robbed? What did they think she was doing when she opened the room?

At what point has the default assumption that she's a squatter changed to what must be the default assumption that she is not only a flagrant and persistent liar, but a fraudulent user of college property performing the fraud so systematically that she has brought fake study material, procured a fake key, and produced a fake student ID card?

Maybe it's time to stop reaching for "what-if" and "yes but" outs here, and acknowledge that this incident demonstrates a shameful and stupid inability on the part of many people to think past their biases.
I think there are two factors at work here. The first is racial bias, and the second is the cops being annoyed because she dared to question their need to see her ID.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:03 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, and that seems to be the source of a lot of your problems.
Absolutely. Many cases of poor policing in the US stem from poorly trained, managed and resourced small police forces.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:04 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The police default position was that she was probably lying.
This is a little uncharitable.

The first officer is generally conciliatory, pretty much explains that he's following procedure. I don't see a strong indication that he believes she's lying.

More likely he's not willing to break procedure, and that may be because it's official department policy and he has to, or it may be a choice. Given that the other officers took it as a matter of course, I imagine the former is more likely.

The black officer was certainly more rude to her, I'd say it's even a stretch though to think his internal state was "She's lying" rather than the more mundane "This is what we have to do when there's a complaint that someone isn't supposed to be there.

Now we can certainly criticize the policy, it seems like it should have granted them the discretion to take the clear signs and release her at least to figure out the database error without keeping her there. I think a system that allowed them to look at the accuser's prior issue and base a judgement on that would make some sense.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:04 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Let the I. D. Do the talking. Cops need proof, give it to them and be about your day. Don't and waste time.
It would be cool if you got the fact right first.

Hint: look for a timeline of when she handed them her ID and when they started checking it against the database and come up with a reasonable explanation for who was wasting time.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:08 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Let the I. D. Do the talking. Cops need proof, give it to them and be about your day. Don't and waste time.

You realize if they don't have proof this racist ******* was lying they can't make a complaint against him later right?

Imagine this courtroom.

" we are charging Mr whitey whiteson for making multiple false police reports based on racially motivated reasons. "

"Mr whiteson you should be ashamed of yourself. Let's see the reports officer"

"Well we knew he was just a racist *******, so we didn't really look into it. "

"Well defense council you might as well just take a half day, as we have absolutely no evidence of either the calls or the racial bias"

"But your honor, we just knew he was a racist *******, we didn't think we needed proof. We didn't want to further inconvenience these kids just trying to study"

"I'm sure they will be happy to know that, unfortunately all we have clear evidence of is you ignoring this moron,case dismissed,and next time maybe think with your brain instead of your feelings if you want to actually stop people like this"
Apart from the fact that you've still not informed yourself of the gender of Ms. Braasch: how do you envisage this court case? A civil case or a criminal case? Who is the claimant or accuser? And on what grounds?

The closest I can come is that the DA would try to prosecute her for filing a false report. But that fails on her defence that she didn't know Ms. Siyombola.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:11 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dude who reported her was a racist prick. Cops cannot simply put down "didn't like the guy didn't investigate" on the report so they need evidence before moving on.

I know they should have just saw who's feelings were more hurt and picked their side (unless it was the racist then **** him) but sadly society isn't there yet so they had to actually get proof.

I mean I'm no cop but if I was I'd likely want proof the claim was false so I could build evidence that this ******* is making false complaints and use that to justify legal action against him. But I'm just a dumb white (looking, which I'm told is the important part) guy, and the obvious decision is just to ignore this guy and let him keep harassing people, reason being the chips are so ****** to minorities is paramount just to keep them away.

Hey, I'm learning right?
I sort of get your point, but if the cops really just wanted proof that the claim was false, they could have accepted Siyambola's story and her remark about Braasch's history, or if not that, her room key, or if not that, her ID card, and simply asked if she was willing to press the issue herself. They could have used their apparently sophisticated ability to consult databases for some purpose other than to question the validity of Siyambola's ID.

Unfortunately, their need for "evidence" excluded not only the common sense assessment of the situation, but every bit of evidence that Siyambola herself provided - and my point here is that to do so requires a default assumption on their part that Siyambola was not only a liar, but at one and the same time a homeless squatter and a criminal engaged in a complex fraud involving stolen room keys, invasion of rooms, and falsification of documents.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:13 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You pay for attitude when dealing with anyone. Sometimes the price is higher than others but said cost can be avoided by not giving attitude.

Obviously she felt the price was worth it, so I'm okay with her decision.
As I say she, was black, standing up for herself means she needs reminding of her place.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:14 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The first officer is generally conciliatory, pretty much explains that he's following procedure.
This is a common tactic to deflect complaints of perceived bias - "it's not me choosing to do this, it's procedure, we have to do this to everyone". Except that it's been pointed out here by someone else, the complaining student's ID was not scrutinized like Siyambola's was, but was simply accepted as legitimate when it was presented. If that's true, then the first officer was lying and not being conciliatory, but patronizing.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:23 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This is a little uncharitable.

The first officer is generally conciliatory, pretty much explains that he's following procedure. I don't see a strong indication that he believes she's lying.

More likely he's not willing to break procedure, and that may be because it's official department policy and he has to, or it may be a choice. Given that the other officers took it as a matter of course, I imagine the former is more likely.

The black officer was certainly more rude to her, I'd say it's even a stretch though to think his internal state was "She's lying" rather than the more mundane "This is what we have to do when there's a complaint that someone isn't supposed to be there.

Now we can certainly criticize the policy, it seems like it should have granted them the discretion to take the clear signs and release her at least to figure out the database error without keeping her there. I think a system that allowed them to look at the accuser's prior issue and base a judgement on that would make some sense.
There's still the curious issue that Ms. Braasch's ID was not run by the database, while Ms. Siyombola's was. They should also check if Ms. Braasch was legitimately present in the dorm.

Presumably, the black officer (supervisor) and the female officer first went with Ms. Braasch and then came over to Ms. Siyombola. If that's the case, then either:
1) it is standard procedure to run the ID by the system, and the black officer was willing to "forget" this with Braasch, but not with Siyombola; or
2) it is not standard procedure and he was fine with going beyond it with Siyombola.

I think it's also highly curious that it allegedly took so long to check out Siyombola in the database. Here's a picture of a Yale ID: that number marked UPI on the right is the University Person Identifier. There's certainly no spelling error with that one.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:24 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is a common tactic to deflect complaints of perceived bias - "it's not me choosing to do this, it's procedure, we have to do this to everyone". Except that it's been pointed out here by someone else, the complaining student's ID was not scrutinized like Siyambola's was, but was simply accepted as legitimate when it was presented. If that's true, then the first officer was lying and not being conciliatory, but patronizing.
We have to rely a little on imagination because we don't know what official procedure is on paper or in training.

First, is it established that the other student's id was not run through the database? Her interaction with police was mostly off camera, so that wasn't clear to me from the video, but I may have missed something.

However, I don't find it particularly unlikely that there is a policy distinction between procedure for establishing the identity of a someone making a complaint and checking the identity of someone whose right to be there is being questioned.

As I said in my other post, this incident would show the serious flaws in having those particular policies, but I don't think there's a strong reason to suspect that officer was lying about policy. He certainly could have been.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:25 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's still the curious issue that Ms. Braasch's ID was not run by the database, while Ms. Siyombola's was. They should also check if Ms. Braasch was legitimately present in the dorm.

Presumably, the black officer (supervisor) and the female officer first went with Ms. Braasch and then came over to Ms. Siyombola. If that's the case, then either:
1) it is standard procedure to run the ID by the system, and the black officer was willing to "forget" this with Braasch, but not with Siyombola; or
2) it is not standard procedure and he was fine with going beyond it with Siyombola.

I think it's also highly curious that it allegedly took so long to check out Siyombola in the database. Here's a picture of a Yale ID: that number marked UPI on the right is the University Person Identifier. There's certainly no spelling error with that one.
See my post to checkmite.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:25 PM   #338
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I've read elsewhere comments claiming that the cops not only tried to check Siyombola's status in the university system, but also checked if she had outstanding warrants. Can somebody substantiate that from the video posted?
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:30 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Even in your own dorm building?
No, there you are completely exempt from having to show any ID. Just say, "This is my dorm," and the cops have to accept that.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:38 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You pay for attitude when dealing with anyone. Sometimes the price is higher than others but said cost can be avoided by not giving attitude.

Obviously she felt the price was worth it, so I'm okay with her decision.
True, and I'm usually pretty careful with cops, given that they are armed and have the ability to ruin your day, or your entire life, but I can hardly blame her for being less than completely subservient in those circumstances. Really, given that she has a key and an ID, the probability that she's anything other than what she claims to be is in winning the lottery territory. It's time for the cops to be on their way.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:08 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dude who reported her was a racist prick. Cops cannot simply put down "didn't like the guy didn't investigate" on the report so they need evidence before moving on.

I know they should have just saw who's feelings were more hurt and picked their side (unless it was the racist then **** him) but sadly society isn't there yet so they had to actually get proof.

I mean I'm no cop but if I was I'd likely want proof the claim was false so I could build evidence that this ******* is making false complaints and use that to justify legal action against him. But I'm just a dumb white (looking, which I'm told is the important part) guy, and the obvious decision is just to ignore this guy and let him keep harassing people, reason being the chips are so ****** to minorities is paramount just to keep them away.
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
.......You realize if they don't have proof this racist ******* was lying they can't make a complaint against him later right? ..........
The person who rang the police was female.

Quote:
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:22 PM   #342
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God, it the police questioned every student who fell asleep in a dorm common room at the college I went to, they would end up questioning about 90% of the student population...
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:22 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This is a little uncharitable.

The first officer is generally conciliatory, pretty much explains that he's following procedure. I don't see a strong indication that he believes she's lying.

More likely he's not willing to break procedure, and that may be because it's official department policy and he has to, or it may be a choice. Given that the other officers took it as a matter of course, I imagine the former is more likely.

The black officer was certainly more rude to her, I'd say it's even a stretch though to think his internal state was "She's lying" rather than the more mundane "This is what we have to do when there's a complaint that someone isn't supposed to be there.

Now we can certainly criticize the policy, it seems like it should have granted them the discretion to take the clear signs and release her at least to figure out the database error without keeping her there. I think a system that allowed them to look at the accuser's prior issue and base a judgement on that would make some sense.
If the officer did not believe she was probably lying then the investigation would have ended there. If he is investigating a complaint that a person is not supposed to be there, and if that person, surrounded by her school work, states "I am supposed to be here," then whether or not it's done politely and whether or not it's done with the necessity of procedure, a failure to accept that statement is a direct challenge to the truth of the statement. If it was simply procedure, he could have explained in a way that made it clear that he did not suspect her of lying. If, as others suggest, it was necessary to complete the procedure at least in part to allow the police to prevent such incidents in the future or to reprimand Braasch, then he could have said that too. But he did not. The procedure did not end with an explanation, did not end with a return to her room and did not end with the presentation of a student ID. It did not end with anything that Siyombola herself was able to present. Every thing she did and said was, de facto, regarded as suspicious.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:17 PM   #344
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From the BBC News...

Lolade Siyonbola said, "This is what happens in America. White people think they have licence to use the police as a weapon against people of colour. Police think they need to monitor people of colour. It's very common..."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44068305
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:44 PM   #345
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These idiots need to get charged with making a false report.

Seeing a young black person sleeping in a common area of a college is NOT evidence of a crime.
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Old 11th May 2018, 08:11 PM   #346
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It's amazing how the simple concept of deescalating a situation could solve pretty much all of these cases we've seen lately.

Racist twatwaffles are always going to use the police to harass minorities and the police are, in some cases throwing it up as a blanket excuse not withstanding, forced to at least look into these complaints, ulterior motived they might be.

But in the case, the Starbucks case, many if not most of the police involved shootings we've discussed could have been prevented, and here's an important detail prevented without any potential negative side effects like letting a potential bad person get away or putting the officers in any more danger, if simple deescalation procedures or hell just the base concept of having a "Don't inflame the situation" mentality had been present.
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:27 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Perhaps, and I consider that a valid issue. I personally would like to see a more centralized police system.

But the idea of campus police for huge universities was called "bizarre" and "crazy," and the point was that it wasn't any crazier than a municipal police force.
From a US perspective, maybe, but to everyone else is does seem bizarre. Then again, private companies having armed private security seems pretty bizarre from a UK perspective, as well.
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Old 12th May 2018, 04:59 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We had a dead deer left in the elevator of our dorm and I don't think the cops were called.
That’s because it was a whitetail deer.
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Old 12th May 2018, 05:16 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
i.e., "Don't call them racist or they'll get upset and do even more racist things."
Yeah like electing Donald Trump ........again. But hey at least you get to call someone a racist, I guess that's a fair trade-off.
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Old 12th May 2018, 06:27 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TIL that the Metropolitan Police are bizarre and crazy.
The Metropolitan Police Service covers a population of over 8 million.
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Old 12th May 2018, 08:03 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
i.e., "Don't call them racist or they'll get upset and do even more racist things."
"My feelings don't care about facts."

-Famous skeptictm saying
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Old 12th May 2018, 05:25 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Yeah like electing Donald Trump ........again. But hey at least you get to call someone a racist, I guess that's a fair trade-off.
Not all, but a majority of republickers give every impression of being racist.
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Old 14th May 2018, 04:26 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Could be. She has a big collection of degrees already, so she's got to be older than the typical student.
Truly suspicious that someone that old was in a dorm though, clearly she is just homeless and snuck in.
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:18 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
That’s because it was a whitetail deer.
Funny and true.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:42 AM   #355
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HERE is a little example of Ms. Braasch's thoughts. Slavery was a choice.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:44 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
HERE is a little example of Ms. Braasch's thoughts. Slavery was a choice.
Quote:
I read about the trials and tribulations of both escaped and freed slaves. I read about the cruel world waiting to pounce mercilessly upon penniless, illiterate, and uneducated former slaves. About how former slaves were torn from the stability of family and community and the paternalism of the slave owner (including the legal protections afforded slaves). About how former slaves struggled to rebuild their lives in a world that didn’t want them.
Hmm
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:43 AM   #357
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Hmm, indeed. She was assigned in 2010 to argue a pro-slavery position as part of a class project. She took this newfound (and forced) perspective and applied it to women's rights, forming the body of the paper.

The takeaway is what, again?

Eta: my bad, she wrote this paper in 2010 recalling an assignment from her middle school days, and she thought it was an odd assignment, too.

Is this the level of straw being grasped at to find this woman to be racist? Seriously?
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:45 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
HERE is a little example of Ms. Braasch's thoughts. Slavery was a choice.
We've already gone over that. She had to defend slavery as an assigned position in a middle school debate. So it's a bit hard to pin that on her.

The article, however, leaves me with an uneasy feeling that she may actually still stand behind the argument she concocted.
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Old 15th May 2018, 12:56 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hmm, indeed. She was assigned in 2010 to argue a pro-slavery position as part of a class project. She took this newfound (and forced) perspective and applied it to women's rights, forming the body of the paper.

The takeaway is what, again?

Eta: my bad, she wrote this paper in 2010 recalling an assignment from her middle school days, and she thought it was an odd assignment, too.

Is this the level of straw being grasped at to find this woman to be racist? Seriously?
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
We've already gone over that. She had to defend slavery as an assigned position in a middle school debate. So it's a bit hard to pin that on her.

The article, however, leaves me with an uneasy feeling that she may actually still stand behind the argument she concocted.
I have not called her a racist. I figure what she says can speak for itself. I think it interesting at least that, required or not, though the point of view is a very disagreeable one to some, she appears to be very proud of it. Her account of the event is not that she was required to take a point of view and thought of a clever dodge to win, but that her thought led to what she considers an insight. No doubt many of us have taken ill advised positions in our youth, with or without requirements, but we don't all write to The Humanist about it in later years.
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Old 15th May 2018, 01:05 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I have not called her a racist. I figure what she says can speak for itself. I think it interesting at least that, required or not, though the point of view is a very disagreeable one to some, she appears to be very proud of it. Her account of the event is not that she was required to take a point of view and thought of a clever dodge to win, but that her thought led to what she considers an insight. No doubt many of us have taken ill advised positions in our youth, with or without requirements, but we don't all write to The Humanist about it in later years.
Would you consider it a reasonable insight that 'some, but not many' of the slaves may have preferred their previous condition, horrendous as it was, than to the unwelcome unknown that they faced? Was this insight applicable to her paper?
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