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Old 15th May 2018, 09:59 AM   #161
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Not at all, I do it on purpose because people already understand when I talk about the left or democrats or any group, itís obvious Iím not saying 100% of them.
So when you say a group is "certainly [...] monolithic" what you mean is that it's "certainly not monolithic"? Should we take absolutely everything you say to mean the exact opposite of what you actually say?

It certainly seems to be true that when you said that you never make absolutist statements about anything you meant that you often make absolutist statements about a wide range of subjects.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:05 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Not at all, I do it on purpose because people already understand when I talk about the left or democrats or any group, itís obvious Iím not saying 100% of them. Youíre just using a tactic to dodge what the left is clearly guilty of. Look how squeegee has been following me around thinking Iím making an absolutist claim now on everything I post. Itís really a lot of fun.

Care to admit now the left has some serious problems with our military, many who express absolute hatred?
Thereís gold in them thar posts!
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:14 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So when you say a group is "certainly [...] monolithic" what you mean is that it's "certainly not monolithic"? Should we take absolutely everything you say to mean the exact opposite of what you actually say?

It certainly seems to be true that when you said that you never make absolutist statements about anything you meant that you often make absolutist statements about a wide range of subjects.
It means I should spell it out so that youíre not confused, but, of course Iím not going to do that. Itís more fun watching these conversations get pushed into the ridiculous. Meanwhile Iíll continue to post what I want the left to see in the news.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:23 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
It means I should spell it out so that youíre not confused, but, of course Iím not going to do that.
Indeed. Why should you communicate clearly and say what you mean? If you maintain your reputation for just saying random nonsense, then you can say whatever you want and pretend it means whatever you want.

It's certainly much easier than bothering to have any kind of informed or considered opinion.
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:19 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some radical leftist anti-war fringe, which held no elected positions or made any real policy, spat on soldiers back in the 60's.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Actually we're yet to see any evidence of that. Logger has been suspiciously unforthcoming on the subject.
The explanation is simple: there is no such evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image:
Quote:
The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam (1998) is a book by Vietnam veteran and Sociology professor Jerry Lembcke. The book is an analysis of the widely believed, but historically inaccurate, urban legend that American soldiers were spat upon and insulted by antiwar protesters upon returning home from the Vietnam War.
Or read his recent op-ed in in the NYT, "The myth of the Spitting Antiwar Protester" (I couldn't, ran out of free articles, so I'd be happy if someone quoted relevant parts).
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:58 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
...

Or read his recent op-ed in in the NYT, "The myth of the Spitting Antiwar Protester" (I couldn't, ran out of free articles, so I'd be happy if someone quoted relevant parts).
From your link, this was interesting.
Quote:
Whoppers like these go unchallenged by reporters and scholars perhaps because of their memoirist first-person quality, stories told by the men who say it happened to them. I collect the stories, I told the reporter, and have a spreadsheet with about 220 first-person ďI was spat onĒ accounts.

But you donít believe the stories, right? she asked. Acknowledging that I could not prove the negative ó that they were not true ó I went on to say there is no corroboration or documentary evidence, such as newspaper reports from the time, that they are true. Many of the stories have implausible details, like returning soldiers deplaning at San Francisco Airport, where they were met by groups of spitting hippies. In fact, return flights landed at military air bases like Travis, from which protesters would have been barred. Others include claims that military authorities told them on returning flights to change into civilian clothes upon arrival lest they be attacked by protesters. Trash cans at the Los Angeles airport were piled high with abandoned uniforms, according to one eyewitness, a sight that would surely have been documented by news photographers ó if it had existed.
The fact people were willing to fabricate stories is consistent with wanting to be believed when one repeats a story they heard. Stories people hear word of mouth third or more hand get repeated as first and second hand stories: it happened to my cousin, my brother, my teacher, etc.

And listeners want to believe the stories they hear.
Quote:
Listeners, I speculated, are loath to question the truth of the stories lest aspersion be seemingly cast on the authenticity of the teller.
Then there movies that spread the myth:
Quote:
In ďFirst Blood,Ē the inaugural Rambo film, the protagonist, John Rambo, flashes back to ďthose maggots at the airport, spittiní, calliní us baby killers and all kinds of vile crap.Ē
That article was chock full of interesting aspects of the myth.
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Old 15th May 2018, 12:30 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Indeed. Why should you communicate clearly and say what you mean? If you maintain your reputation for just saying random nonsense, then you can say whatever you want and pretend it means whatever you want.

It's certainly much easier than bothering to have any kind of informed or considered opinion.
Saying the left has a clear distaste for our military, quoting many of the liberal leaders, and nothing from political leaders on the right is communicating clearly.
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Old 15th May 2018, 01:32 PM   #168
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Evidence of spitting and argument against the story claiming that it was all made up:

http://www.startribune.com/disrespec...ion/160444095/

Quote:
The spitting on veterans was just a small part of the overall feeling of lost honor, but it was real, contrary to Sirota's article, which appears to borrow heavily from a review of a book written by socialist and war protester Jerry Lembcke.

In his purported study, Lembcke's sampling was not random, it was statistically insignificant, and he stated that stories of spitting first surfaced in the 1980s. And he espouses that post-traumatic stress disorder was an invention of the government to garner support for the war.

But Lembcke is refuted by many other sources, including Jim Lindgren, a Northwestern University law professor who cited news accounts that documented many spitting incidents. One example: A 1967 Bucks County Courier Times article reporting that two sailors were spat on outside a high school football game by a gang of about 10 young men. One of the sailors was stabbed.

.....

In October 1967, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter James Reston's front page article in the New York Times described his eyewitness account of protest behavior so vulgar that spitting was the least of the transgressions.

.....

Other spitting incidents were reported by Pulitzer Prize winners Max Frankel in the New York Times (November 1969) and Carl Bernstein in the Washington Post (May 1970).
There are several more examples. But what do 45 year old protests by "Dems" have to do with anything?

ETA: As for McCain, I don't know if people here are complaining about the Senator(?) that said "He's dying anyways". It is tasteless, but at the same time McCain has loudly voiced his disdain about many things - I think he's been a total dick - and I think he's invited some criticism, dying or not. If you're gonna talk smack don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. The guys still a politician and an ass.
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Last edited by mgidm86; 15th May 2018 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 15th May 2018, 02:45 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Evidence of spitting and argument against the story claiming that it was all made up:



There are several more examples. But what do 45 year old protests by "Dems" have to do with anything?

ETA: As for McCain, I don't know if people here are complaining about the Senator(?) that said "He's dying anyways". It is tasteless, but at the same time McCain has loudly voiced his disdain about many things - I think he's been a total dick - and I think he's invited some criticism, dying or not. If you're gonna talk smack don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. The guys still a politician and an ass.
Spot on!
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:45 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Meanwhile Iíll continue to post what I want the left to see in the news.
Thanks! And I'll continue to laugh at your posts...and at you. LOL
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:47 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Thanks! And I'll continue to laugh at your posts...and at you. LOL
I wouldnt expect you to do anything different, thereís several on here who only post after mine.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:50 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I wouldnt expect you to do anything different, thereís several on here who only post after mine.
No doubt--Several of us are laughing at you. LOL
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:55 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No doubt--Several of us are laughing at you. LOL
Thanks for proving my point again. Lol
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:58 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Thanks for proving my point again. Lol
Actually, you had no point, but thanks for making me laugh again! It's hilarious that you even thought you had a point. LOL
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:20 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Thanks! And I'll continue to laugh at your posts...and at you. LOL
I did at first, but the humor has gotten old.

He seems to be motivated not by any real devotion to Conservatice ideas (limited government,etc) but by pure hatred of anybody he considers a "liberal".
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:21 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Evidence of spitting and argument against the story claiming that it was all made up:

http://www.startribune.com/disrespec...ion/160444095/



There are several more examples. But what do 45 year old protests by "Dems" have to do with anything?

ETA: As for McCain, I don't know if people here are complaining about the Senator(?) that said "He's dying anyways". It is tasteless, but at the same time McCain has loudly voiced his disdain about many things - I think he's been a total dick - and I think he's invited some criticism, dying or not. If you're gonna talk smack don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. The guys still a politician and an ass.

"Total Dick" being he does not kiss the butt of Dear Leader.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:28 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
It is tasteless, but at the same time McCain has loudly voiced his disdain about many things - I think he's been a total dick - and I think he's invited some criticism, dying or not.
When has he been a total dick?
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
If you're gonna talk smack don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. The guys still a politician and an ass.
I don't think he's expecting to be treated with kid gloves. It's his wife, daughter and others who have complained about the "he's dying" remark.

But the OP was about allegations he collaborated with North Vietnam. The "songbird McCain" remark. He and other POWS said at times they told torturers what they thought the torturers wanted to hear. But after 5 years, there are no operational secrets that anyone can spill. Probably after a month. Those allegations arose about 10 years ago. Someone in 2008 was really out to get him. They're not accusing him of being a dick, but a traitor. Which plenty of people still probably feel is true since he pushed hard for immigration reform that included a path to legalization for some illegal immigrants.

He did lead the U.S. in establishing diplomatic relations with Vietnam, long after the war ended
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Old 16th May 2018, 01:42 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying the left has a clear distaste for our military, quoting many of the liberal leaders, and nothing from political leaders on the right is communicating clearly.
What about when you claim "the left" spat on POWs and ignore any and all requests for evidence?
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Old 16th May 2018, 01:44 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
But what do 45 year old protests by "Dems" have to do with anything?
Ask logger. He brought it up.
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Old 16th May 2018, 02:58 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
There are several more examples. But what do 45 year old protests by "Dems" have to do with anything?
It was part of logger's argument that the "dems" hate the military and are, absolutely and also not absolutely, all evil.
"liberalism is a mental disease ", "democrats are scum ", "We all know what the disgusting left is about", "I also know the alternative reality leftists live in and how incredibly dishonest, deceitful and ignorant they are". But not all of them. Some of them are fine people.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
ETA: As for McCain, I don't know if people here are complaining about the Senator(?) that said "He's dying anyways". It is tasteless, but at the same time McCain has loudly voiced his disdain about many things - I think he's been a total dick - and I think he's invited some criticism, dying or not. If you're gonna talk smack don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. The guys still a politician and an ass.
Joking about someone dying is not criticism.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:18 AM   #181
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Kellyanne Conway says to expect staff changes because of the leak. The implication is that it will be the person or people who leaked who will be fired, not the person who made the statement in the first place. This jibes with a story from a few days back where it was reported that Sanders called a staff meeting and berated people over the leaks (even being prescient enough to say that what she was saying then and there would get leaked), but hardly touched on the original remark itself.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:22 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Kellyanne Conway says to expect staff changes because of the leak. The implication is that it will be the person or people who leaked who will be fired, not the person who made the statement in the first place. This jibes with a story from a few days back where it was reported that Sanders called a staff meeting and berated people over the leaks (even being prescient enough to say that what she was saying then and there would get leaked), but hardly touched on the original remark itself.
I would expect no less. This administration in particular seems focussed on damage control, spin of otherwise unacceptable public statements by officials and exercising power in ways that are best described as bullying, and at worst as authoritarian.

The "leaker" being punished rather than the one strongly violating behavioural norms, is indicative of an authoritarian mindset where no one who defies the leader should be safe from retribution.

Dying of cancer after a lifetime of public service - not worthy of even basic decency if you have not properly kissed the back passage of the leader, in fact you deserve condemnation, slander and being pushed into obscurity because you failed to support the leader in all things.

Defending the deviant social behaviour - it is how the leader behaves, therefore that is how his loyal followers should also behave - kicking down at subordinates, lashing out at peers and kowtowing to positional superiors. Independence is only valued if it leads to being a lickspittle.
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:38 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying the left has a clear distaste for our military, quoting many of the liberal leaders, and nothing from political leaders on the right is communicating clearly.
Clearly ineffective.

You have proven that a few people at one time hated the military. Attempting to extrapolate form that is worth about as much as a bucket of piss.

The only thing we learn from your argument is that you don't understand what is and is not evidence and displays of innumeracy.
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:40 AM   #184
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But the statement is true. They don't have to care about his objection to haspell because he will be dead soon.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:18 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But the statement is true. They don't have to care about his objection to Haspell because he will be dead soon.
It's not a question of whether it's true or not, and I think you know that.
It's a question of basic decency. Saddler wasn't saying it simply as a matter of fact, she was saying it as a joke.

You're saying it as a matter of fact, which makes it far less objectionable.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:28 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
It's not a question of whether it's true or not, and I think you know that.
It's a question of basic decency. Saddler wasn't saying it simply as a matter of fact, she was saying it as a joke.

You're saying it as a matter of fact, which makes it far less objectionable.
If it is true, whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:41 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Clearly ineffective.

You have proven that a few people at one time hated the military. Attempting to extrapolate form that is worth about as much as a bucket of piss.

The only thing we learn from your argument is that you don't understand what is and is not evidence and displays of innumeracy.
A few people? Thereís at least 20 quotes from different people and to argue this point with you is ridiculous. History is full of leftists whoíve said terrible things of our military, itís pointless to argue this when itís so obvious. Put that up with virtually no one from the right doing it and we have your deep denial on display.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:44 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What about when you claim "the left" spat on POWs and ignore any and all requests for evidence?
You obviously missed this from mgidm86.

http://www.startribune.com/disrespec...ion/160444095/


But once again Iím Amazed that you need such things proven to you. It shows the lefts dishonor towards our military again.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:50 AM   #189
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On the one hand there's "saying terrible things of our military". On the other hand there's multiple documented instances of legislating against or stealing money from veterans.

So I suppose it depends on whether you think supporting the military begins and ends with paying lip-service.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:53 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You obviously missed this from mgidm86.

http://www.startribune.com/disrespec...ion/160444095/
Well, firstly, you are not mgidm86. Someone else posting evidence is not the same thing as you posting evidence.

Secondly, that article says nothing about POWs.

Quote:
It shows the lefts dishonor towards our military again.
It seems that it doesn't matter how many times you're corrected, you still insist on believing that I'm part of "the left". I wonder what the magic number is - how many times you need to be told something before it sinks in?
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:09 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, firstly, you are not mgidm86. Someone else posting evidence is not the same thing as you posting evidence.

Secondly, that article says nothing about POWs.



It seems that it doesn't matter how many times you're corrected, you still insist on believing that I'm part of "the left". I wonder what the magic number is - how many times you need to be told something before it sinks in?
If logger says you're left, you're left! End of discussion. And logger says everyone is left.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:23 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
On the one hand there's "saying terrible things of our military". On the other hand there's multiple documented instances of legislating against or stealing money from veterans.

So I suppose it depends on whether you think supporting the military begins and ends with paying lip-service.
Yeah but we have to be careful. Liberals will make it a wedge issue to get things passed that are actually harmful. Itís always difficult to have liberals involved with these kids of decisions, theyíre so dishonest and corrupt Iíd be better to not even have the left involved.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:27 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, firstly, you are not mgidm86. Someone else posting evidence is not the same thing as you posting evidence.
Lol. Really! That is hilarious.

Quote:
Secondly, that article says nothing about POWs.
Lol, this is great to
It does kinda kill your argument that spitting didnít happen. So naturally youíd have to limit it to POWs. This is so much fun.


Quote:
It seems that it doesn't matter how many times you're corrected, you still insist on believing that I'm part of "the left". I wonder what the magic number is - how many times you need to be told something before it sinks in?
What is the big deal? Is it so terrible being a leftist?
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:43 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yeah but we have to be careful. Liberals will make it a wedge issue to get things passed that are actually harmful. Itís always difficult to have liberals involved with these kids of decisions, theyíre so dishonest and corrupt Iíd be better to not even have the left involved.
More dishonest and corrupt than stealing 9-figure sums from veterans?
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:43 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver
Hells, the contempt shown to the US military by the "right" started right after the Revolution when Congress decided to not follow through on back pay for returning soldiers. It was a perfunctory "Thank you for your service," and a "By the way, we've assessed the back taxes accrued during your period of service and your farm should just about cover it. You and your family need to leave." Unless of course, you consider the Founding Fathers to be a bunch of lefties....
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Wrong, contempt is certainly the wrong word, carelessness is more appropriate. All military personel should be well taken care of, even for life if they see combat, certainly if they are injured.
A deliberate act of legislators to deny pay and benefits is carelessness?

nice sentiment there, but denying living wages, pensions etc to soldiers is a fine American tradition - see the Bonus Army where the Republican Herbert Hoover used force to violently disperse the veterans who were peacefully requesting that the bonuses promised them by legislation be honoured.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:44 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol. Really! That is hilarious.
Well, if you want to count someone else posting evidence for you as an example of you communicating clearly, then go you, I suppose.

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It does kinda kill your argument that spitting didnít happen.
Can you quote where I've made that argument?

Quote:
What is the big deal? Is it so terrible being a leftist?
I didn't say it was a big deal. It's just a fun illustration of how little you care about facts.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:03 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
A few people? There’s at least 20 quotes from different people and to argue this point with you is ridiculous. History is full of leftists who’ve said terrible things of our military, it’s pointless to argue this when it’s so obvious. Put that up with virtually no one from the right doing it and we have your deep denial on display.
You still cannot tell the difference between anecdotes and evidence.

300+ million people in the country. You have 20+ quotes. Let me know when you reach the million point and I will take your anecdotes seriously. Mathematical illiteracy is a terrible thing.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:19 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More dishonest and corrupt than stealing 9-figure sums from veterans?
Stealing? Yeah sure. Thatís the same language the left would use. Once again, trash our military, then create a wedge.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:20 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
A deliberate act of legislators to deny pay and benefits is carelessness?

nice sentiment there, but denying living wages, pensions etc to soldiers is a fine American tradition - see the Bonus Army where the Republican Herbert Hoover used force to violently disperse the veterans who were peacefully requesting that the bonuses promised them by legislation be honoured.
Letís try and stay closer to this century shall we? Unless you want to keep shooting from the hip?
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:25 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, if you want to count someone else posting evidence for you as an example of you communicating clearly, then go you, I suppose.
Or I could just ignore his post like you want to. Lol


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Can you quote where I've made that argument?
You ask for evidence so I just assumed you were continuing the false argument.
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