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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 20th May 2018, 02:48 PM   #241
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think about the social dynamics of this case far more than I do about the evidence of this case since it cut and dried that Amanda or Raffaele were not involved.

Group think, misogyny, sexual dynamics between man and women, tribalism, cognitive bias, the media dynamics and how these things came into play which resulted in dramatically changing the lives of two innocent people. The lunacy of the PGP?

I wonder how many changed their minds an if some never will. If Amanda has not seen a whiff of trouble in her life when she's 50,60,70 will Vixen etc ever come around or will they think she just never got caught?
It's the social dynamics and psychology of the case that intrigue me, too. A book should be written about it without delving into guilt or innocence.

I know I changed my mind. I assumed they were guilty when all the information I could get was coming from the police and prosecutors. It wasn't until I could actually start evaluating the evidence of the forensic and medical experts, etc. that I realized the prosecution's case was not solid at all.
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Old 20th May 2018, 02:50 PM   #242
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Raffaele visited Perugia recently. He was there the same time as Guede who was out of prison for the weekend. It would have been interesting if the two had run into each other.

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronac...a-1526427.html
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Old 20th May 2018, 03:17 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's the social dynamics and psychology of the case that intrigue me, too. A book should be written about it without delving into guilt or innocence.I know I changed my mind. I assumed they were guilty when all the information I could get was coming from the police and prosecutors. It wasn't until I could actually start evaluating the evidence of the forensic and medical experts, etc. that I realized the prosecution's case was not solid at all.
This is me as well. Usually, the people that are arrested are guilty so assuming they were too is normal. It probably was a year after the murder that I started to get interested enough to delve into what happened. I do remember thinking nonsense about the satanic rituals or manage a trois stories that were reported so much in the news.

Thanks for the link into the Dunning Kruger effect. That is fascinating.
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Old 20th May 2018, 03:23 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
.
.
.
I know I changed my mind. I assumed they were guilty when all the information I could get was coming from the police and prosecutors. It wasn't until I could actually start evaluating the evidence of the forensic and medical experts, etc. that I realized the prosecution's case was not solid at all.

It wasn't until 6 months into the Massei trial (when the TMB testing was revealed and the nefarious DNA testing of Stefanoni came to light) that it became apparent that Mignini had been framing Knox/Sollecito. The defense requested a dismissal, but Massei refused.
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Old 20th May 2018, 03:44 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Raffaele visited Perugia recently. He was there the same time as Guede who was out of prison for the weekend. It would have been interesting if the two had run into each other.

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronac...a-1526427.html


"What? Sollecito visited Perugia recently?? What a sick bastard! Does he have no shame whatsoever??! Not only does he help stab a poor young woman (a future Secretary-General of the United Nations, no less) to death, then lie about it, then write a book lying about it, then have the temerity not to apologise about that lying in clear defiance of an explicit court order to do so..... but now he actually feels the need to go back to a town where he has no business, where all the inhabitants hate his guts, simply in order to mock his victim!"

(copyright: most pro-guilt commentators)
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Old 20th May 2018, 03:55 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by sept79 View Post
It wasn't until 6 months into the Massei trial (when the TMB testing was revealed and the nefarious DNA testing of Stefanoni came to light) that it became apparent that Mignini had been framing Knox/Sollecito. The defense requested a dismissal, but Massei refused.

Yes. This and other related incidents very clearly points to the opinion that the judges in the Massei trial (and, as is widely reported elsewhere, judges in trials - especially first-instance trials - throughout Italy) had already formed the default view that the prosecutors' case (prosecutors, remember, who were literal and emotional friends/allies of judges, as members of the very same judicial group) was effectively likely to be sound, fair and objective - and that by contrast any defence objections were effectively likely to nothing more or less than sophistic attempts to thwart justice.


I've said it before, etc, etc..... but Italian criminal justice is fundamentally unfit for purpose (its purpose being the fair and accurate application of justice as it is defined in modern liberalised-democracy jurisprudence and ethics, in as speedy a manner as is practicably possible, with ample safeguards and correctional procedures and proper levels of accountability). Italy itself is broken in so very many ways. Gorgeous place to go for short holidays - but horrible place to try to do business, or in which to live as an expat (it may be great for years, but as soon as you're either a victim or a suspect of any sort of crime, or you get embroiled in any kind of civil dispute, or regulatory dispute, or dispute with local or central government.....)
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Old 20th May 2018, 04:12 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's the social dynamics and psychology of the case that intrigue me, too. A book should be written about it without delving into guilt or innocence.

I know I changed my mind. I assumed they were guilty when all the information I could get was coming from the police and prosecutors. It wasn't until I could actually start evaluating the evidence of the forensic and medical experts, etc. that I realized the prosecution's case was not solid at all.

I know I've said both these things myself many times before as well, but:

1) I also truly did start out as a believer in the safety and correctness of the Knox/Sollecito convictions in this case. I remember hearing snippets from the Massei trial in the media here in UK during 2009, and I actually remember where I was (driving round Hyde Park Corner late in the evening after a night out) when I heard the Massei verdicts over the radio. And I genuinely did then only buy "Darkness Descending" in March 2010 purely because it was on a "buy one, get one free" offer alongside a book I actually did want to buy - and because I remembered the case. And then, of course, having read DD, and having thought that everything within it was accurate, reliable and true, it only reinforced my belief in Knox's/Sollecito's guilt. I genuinely did then seek out online resources to try to see what people were discussing about a few smaller elements of the case - which is when I alighted upon pmf.org. And it was then that I quickly realised that a) there were fundamental, serious problems underpinning all the convictions; b) pretty much everyone on pmf.org was pro-guilt, and pretty much everyone was either ignoring, handwaving or horribly rationalising every single one of these problems; c) pretty much anyone on pmf.org who challenged any facet of the convictions - irrespective of the clarity/civility of their position - was "disappeared" from the site in extremely short order; and d) pretty much everyone on pmf.org, from the administrators on downwards, was a gold-plated nutjob.

2) I also have long held the belief that the online commentary dynamics around this case - specifically in respect of the Knox/Sollecito trial process and Knox/Sollecito themselves - are a fascinating and extremely worthwhile case study into important areas of group/individual psychology in a Web 2.0 world of messageboards and social media, especially where one takes into account the disconnect in personas between certain people's real-world identities and their constructed online personas. Thankfully there have by now (to my knowledge) been two pretty interesting academic exercises looking into exactly these things. And, as all of us here have known for a very, very long time....... while it's undeniable that the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence "side" of things has indeed attracted a very small number of individuals with potential mental health issues, these studies have shown conclusively that the really serious questions have to be asked about the motivation and psychology of the pro-guilt community. I think there's a good bit more to be done, and I do genuinely think that the academic and medical communities have an awful lot to learn about individual and group behaviours/activism from this case.
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Old 20th May 2018, 04:22 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Mike1711 View Post

It's so very bizarre isn't it?

I and many others have explained on these threads, time and again, what 530.1 actually means in practice (both in terms of the letter and the spirit of the code) - notwithstanding of course the (inconvenient - to pro-guilt commentators) truth that there are NOT legally different "flavours" of acquittal in Italy, and that the different paras of 530 are nothing more than reactionary clumsiness on the part of the people who rewrote the code after the legislative changes were effectively forced onto Italy in the late 80s. It's in fact manifestly clear - through proper, informed analysis - that the Italian 530.1 is absolutely NOT "equivalent" in any way to the Scottish "not proven" verdict*. And that's been articulated here many times (without, IIRC, ever even any attempt from a pro-guilt commentator to engage in meaningful debate over this interpretation).

And yet the same old suspects just carry on trotting out the same old misrepresentations. Whether it's wilful, or through ongoing inability to understand, or simply through lack of intellectual capacity, it's impossible to say. I suppose it must be the same as what rational thinkers feel when they try to engage Moon-landing-hoax theorists in debate: no matter how much a rational, scientific thinker explains how (for example) the sheer forces of gravity and inertia (related to the force applied to the flag by the astronaut) will make the flags on the Moon sway and ripple, without any need whatsoever for air pressure to be present, the nutters will come back as if not a jot of that went in, with their "AH-HAAAA! How are those flags fluttering around like that if there's no atmosphere and therefore no air resistance or wind on the Moon's surface????!!1!!!11!!"


Sometimes there's simply no reasoning with those who are unable or incapable of understanding reason.........


* In fact, while all Scottish "not proven" verdicts would indeed map onto the Italian 530.1.... the vast majority of Scottish "not guilty" verdicts would also map onto the Italian 530.1. And it's only the comparative extremely small proportion of Scottish "not guilty" verdicts that would map onto 530.2: only, in fact, those in which the court ruled that no crime was ever even committed, or those where the court deemed that the innocence of the defendant(s) could be satisfactorily proven (and of course only a vanishingly small number of that latter category of cases ever make it as far as a criminal trial in any event - because if the defendant is able to prove his/her factual innocence, then it's near-inconceivable that charges would ever even be brought, let alone the case progressing to a full trial).

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Old 20th May 2018, 06:27 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I know I've said both these things myself many times before as well, but:

1) I also truly did start out as a believer in the safety and correctness of the Knox/Sollecito convictions in this case. I remember hearing snippets from the Massei trial in the media here in UK during 2009, and I actually remember where I was (driving round Hyde Park Corner late in the evening after a night out) when I heard the Massei verdicts over the radio. And I genuinely did then only buy "Darkness Descending" in March 2010 purely because it was on a "buy one, get one free" offer alongside a book I actually did want to buy - and because I remembered the case. And then, of course, having read DD, and having thought that everything within it was accurate, reliable and true, it only reinforced my belief in Knox's/Sollecito's guilt. I genuinely did then seek out online resources to try to see what people were discussing about a few smaller elements of the case - which is when I alighted upon pmf.org. And it was then that I quickly realised that a) there were fundamental, serious problems underpinning all the convictions; b) pretty much everyone on pmf.org was pro-guilt, and pretty much everyone was either ignoring, handwaving or horribly rationalising every single one of these problems; c) pretty much anyone on pmf.org who challenged any facet of the convictions - irrespective of the clarity/civility of their position - was "disappeared" from the site in extremely short order; and d) pretty much everyone on pmf.org, from the administrators on downwards, was a gold-plated nutjob.

2) I also have long held the belief that the online commentary dynamics around this case - specifically in respect of the Knox/Sollecito trial process and Knox/Sollecito themselves - are a fascinating and extremely worthwhile case study into important areas of group/individual psychology in a Web 2.0 world of messageboards and social media, especially where one takes into account the disconnect in personas between certain people's real-world identities and their constructed online personas. Thankfully there have by now (to my knowledge) been two pretty interesting academic exercises looking into exactly these things. And, as all of us here have known for a very, very long time....... while it's undeniable that the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence "side" of things has indeed attracted a very small number of individuals with potential mental health issues, these studies have shown conclusively that the really serious questions have to be asked about the motivation and psychology of the pro-guilt community. I think there's a good bit more to be done, and I do genuinely think that the academic and medical communities have an awful lot to learn about individual and group behaviours/activism from this case.
Indeed. I have come across a small handful of pro-innocence posters who are definitely in the "potential mental health problems" group, but the truly nasty trolls and sick people belong in the pro-guilt group. Among these is a troll who masquerades under many names but his favorite is "Joe Zoo". Then there's the doctor who was literally mentally ill and attacked his therapist, Brendan Mull. He had his medical license suspended. Another was a woman, who was primarily known as "Ghislane" but had many names (mhill4, Potestas, ex-libris, et al) due to being banned from sites. She once told me that my daughter should be shot solely for being my daughter and "scumbag lines like your aren't fit to walk the earth." A fan of hers was a man who went by, ironically, "Think1st" who stalked me on the internet leaving ugly messages about my daughter who had zero to do with the Kercher case and had never even posted about it. The list goes on and on. I'm sure several of you have stories of your own run-ins with psycho guilters.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th May 2018 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 20th May 2018, 08:11 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Indeed. I have come across a small handful of pro-innocence posters who are definitely in the "potential mental health problems" group, but the truly nasty trolls and sick people belong in the pro-guilt group. Among these is a troll who masquerades under many names but his favorite is "Joe Zoo". Then there's the doctor who was literally mentally ill and attacked his therapist, Brendan Mull. He had his medical license suspended. Another was a woman, who was primarily known as "Ghislane" but had many names (mhill4, Potestas, ex-libris, et al) due to being banned from sites. She once told me that my daughter should be shot solely for being my daughter and "scumbag lines like your aren't fit to walk the earth." A fan of hers was a man who went by, ironically, "Think1st" who stalked me on the internet leaving ugly messages about my daughter who had zero to do with the Kercher case and had never even posted about it. The list goes on and on. I'm sure several of you have stories of your own run-ins with psycho guilters.
You forgot Grahame Rhodes who talked in graphic detail how Amanda would be murdered and how he would laugh when it happened.
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Old 20th May 2018, 11:01 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Raffaele visited Perugia recently. He was there the same time as Guede who was out of prison for the weekend. It would have been interesting if the two had run into each other.

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronac...a-1526427.html
Once again another Italian media source confirms that Raffaele had been "acquitted definitively" back in 2015. This must infuriate the remaining guilt campaigners... no mention at all of the Scottish verdict of "not proven".

I wonder why?
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Old 20th May 2018, 11:02 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You forgot Grahame Rhodes who talked in graphic detail how Amanda would be murdered and how he would laugh when it happened.
Ah, yes. How could I forget that lovely piece of work? A true sicko.
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Old 20th May 2018, 11:05 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Vixen
It is exactly similar to the Scottish law 'not proven'.
Originally Posted by Mike1711 View Post
I, too, dropped a jaw at this world-class legal reasoning.... that something is "exactly similar" to something else.

Probably a "typing error". Typing errors are, it seems, exactly similar to lies.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:31 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Indeed. I have come across a small handful of pro-innocence posters who are definitely in the "potential mental health problems" group, but the truly nasty trolls and sick people belong in the pro-guilt group. Among these is a troll who masquerades under many names but his favorite is "Joe Zoo". Then there's the doctor who was literally mentally ill and attacked his therapist, Brendan Mull. He had his medical license suspended. Another was a woman, who was primarily known as "Ghislane" but had many names (mhill4, Potestas, ex-libris, et al) due to being banned from sites. She once told me that my daughter should be shot solely for being my daughter and "scumbag lines like your aren't fit to walk the earth." A fan of hers was a man who went by, ironically, "Think1st" who stalked me on the internet leaving ugly messages about my daughter who had zero to do with the Kercher case and had never even posted about it. The list goes on and on. I'm sure several of you have stories of your own run-ins with psycho guilters.
I remember Think1st. He once went on a rant that all PIP are uncultured swine that buy cheap non imported olive oil/wine (??) and that the defining trait of the PGP was an over abundance of empathy. He deleted his posting account after the final acquittal because even weirdo guilters like him saw the futility in spamming "the mafia must've fixed it" for years on end.

I first encountered guilters on the CNN comment board and that's what drew me into the case, because it was just another news story until I discovered there was a strange cast of characters obsessed with a girl in a crime where a blood covered criminal was found standing over the body. Hmm who did it, apparently not the guy with the bloody knife marked hands who raped the victim, according to them. That was my entrance down the rabbit hole.
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:45 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
It's Jovana Popovic. At least get that much correct.

So you've got nothing... no contradiction's in the account given by four different people; no explanation for how they got with Jovana and her mother to come up with this story within hours of the discovery of the murder; no evidence from the bus company to contradict Jovana's mother; no explanation for why Jovana and her mother would be willing to risk a conspiracy to conceal a murder charge for people they barely knew; no evidence that Michele contradicted Jovana about trying to contact him first. No surprise here.

Do you have any evidence to prove Jovana made the claim "people do this in Serbia all the time"? I've just read her court testimony, start to finish, and she never makes such a claim so I'm just wondering where you got this from? Surely you didn't just make that up... right? --RIGHT???

Leave an unattended suitcase? So now you're trying to couch this as if she tried to pull a typical terrorist tactic. Nice try (well, not really, but..) but that's NOT what she was trying to do. She asked the bus driver if she could put the suitcase on the bus for her daughter to receive in Perugia. For whatever reason she thought she might be able to do this and apparently she was told it was not allowed. Bum rush? More colorful hyperbole to make your point, I suppose. Much more likely she was politely advised that was not allowed. How does the phrase "gilding the lily" apply here?

Your pal, Stacyhs, made this claim. Are you calling her a liar?
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:50 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
A clarification. Not only did the Marasca CSC panel fault the Nencini appeal court's legal reasoning, they also found that the Nencini court judgment had violated Italian law and the Italian Constitution. Thus, it would be erroneous to state that they had even "probably" considered the Nencini judgment fair.

For example, in Section 4.1 and 4.2, without explicitly mentioning CPP Article 192 in that section, the Marasca CSC panel MR agrees with the appellants that the Nencini court violated that law by the improper use of DNA profile data, not obtained in accordance with international standards, and thus not properly usable to establish a fact. The MR attacks the DNA evidence as deficient in lacking reliability and repeatability, and thus not able to establish a fact. CPP Article 192.2 states: The existence of a fact cannot be inferred from circumstantial evidence unless such evidence is serious, precise, and consistent.

In Section 4.3 and 4.3.1, the MR criticizes the way that the results of Guede's trial was used in the Nencini judgment, as a violation of CPP Article 192.3, which requires corroborating evidence to confirm the reliability of such alleged evidence from an accused co-conspirator. The Marasca CSC panel MR goes on to point out, in Section 4.3.2, that this use of Guede's trial results or his unexamined statements also violates the Italian Constitution, Article 111, Clause 4, as well as several laws (CPP articles) elaborating on that constitutional provision.
Absolute nonsense: the Italian Scientific Police followed ENSFI standards.

Stop insulting a team of highly qualified competent scientists who've entered the police forensics team as amongst the best of their generation.

Their aim is to produce objective result. They could not care less about the nonentity 'personalities' involved, nor would they succumb to threats to their objectivity.
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:54 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Guys you're missing the bigger picture. Vixen is conceding that Popovic's testimony is damning to the prosecution's timeline and crime scenario. Since no court rejected Popovic she's practically conceding reasonable doubt.
The only time her testimony was considered significant is when Florence and the Supreme Court threw out Raff's claim for compensation.


They used Papa Sollecito's and Popovic's evidence against him.
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:57 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your pal, Stacyhs, made this claim. Are you calling her a liar?

Once again..... please try reading back the bat-guano stuff you've actually written (and to which others have responded) before attempting to construct yet more strawman misdirection.

The post of yours to which TruthCalls had responded said this (YOUR WORDS):

Try and leave an unattended suitcase on any public transport in Europe and you'll get the bum's rush.

Hahaha 'Popovich says people do this in Serbia all the time'.



Let's look at that first sentence of yours, shall we? You wrote about leaving unattended suitcases on public transport, Vixen. And then, in that second sentence of yours, you stated that this was what Popovic said people did in Serbia.

But that's NOT what Popovic (via her mother) said she was trying to do on the night in question. Her mother was not simply trying to "leave an unattended suitcase" on a bus. Rather, Popovic stated that her mother was trying to place a suitcase on the bus with the consent of the driver, such that the case could be taken to Perugia.

So you'd already created your own strawman, Vixen. And then you surpassed even yourself by creating ANOTHER strawman in claiming that Stacyhs had said that Jovana had said "people (leave unattended suitcases on public transport" all the time. Rather, Jovana had said it was common in Serbia for people to ask bus drivers to allow suitcases to be carried from point to point. Very different, Vixen.

Another day, (yet) another piece of attempted sophistry........................
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:58 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
No PGP has ever wondered in the history of this case if it might be a little implausible that Amanda and Raffaele rushed out on 15 minutes notice to slaughter Meredith, and pick up a random burglar along the way.

Vixen arguing Popovic is a bent witness is one of the most pro-PIP arguments a guilter has ever made.
Knox had been lying in wait for Mez ever since she returned from having a GREAT time at Halloween. She was up at her usual 5:00am to confront Mez at the cottage. Still there when Mez finally got up at about one or two. Raff came around to join her. Mez was off again out of the door leaving Knox to seethe at Mez' popularity and great social life, whilst she had none. Just a weird wimpy boyfriend who took drugs, whilst Mez' handsome boyfriend went ski-ing.
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:59 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Hadn't seen this. Very nice article. Thanks for the link.

I notice Vixen hasn't said anything regarding Article 530 and what paragraphs 1 and 2 say. I suspect this is Vixen denial... she can't admit she's wrong so she'll just avoid it for a while, resurfacing some time later repeating her claim. She's nothing if not predictable.
There is plenty of material on this topic already, so please do a search and get up to speed.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:01 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What an excellent article. My favorite line was "Trolls are small fry" to Amanda. And so they are. Small, nasty, ugly, hate-filled bullies.
Don't do yourself down. However, you can change.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:02 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You do realize that the Independent was bought off by the massive, million dollar PR machine, don't you? Or maybe it was the ghost of Raffaele's dead "Uncle" Rocco, the Mafia Don, haunting the author. Speaking of which, has Vixen...or anyone else for that matter...provided evidence that they were closely related? Or the alleged photo showing Dr. Sollecito at the (cancelled) memorial?
The picture of Francesco at Rocco's memorial is in ISF archives.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:06 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Me neither. But both of us are calling the kettle black.

At this point with Knox being taken in by the N.A. innocence community, with her speaking and media stuff.....

... all that the remaining slut-shamers accomplish is to make Knox's point for her. It's the problem with them posting off the same song-sheet, they very rarely bother these days dealing with evidence - and in my opinion there's a reason for that.

They have to see how many times they can say "lies, lies, lies...." without specifically listing what those lies had been. And the Achilles Heel of it all, what lies have Knox and/or Sollecito told outside this case - I mean, if you're going to make the case that they're pathological than it would be nice if when making that slur, you actually provided evidence of it.

The remaining nutters are stuck in that week in 2007 when Mignini controlled the narrative - controlled it mainly by incarcerating those he wanted to deprive of a voice. His lies got all the way around the world before the truth could get its pants on.

But since March 2015 - those prosecution/investigative lies and "amnesiac" efforts have been exposed for what they were. Empty vessels.

Vixen here on ISF is reduced to simply making a specious claim, then when the claim is disproved, waiting 6 months and making it again as if for the first time.

So tell me again, why do we bother? These days when Vixen does that, all Knox gets out of it is another episode of "Scarlett Letter Reports". Knox then kinds links to the many women her age who've been assaulted in social media like it.

They discover they have voices and are not afraid to use them. The remaining nutters need better strategy - they're letting their urge to slut-shame overwhelm the message they believe they're sending - that the facts are on their side. Aside from the fact that they're not on their side - maybe that's the reason why they yell, "lies, slut, lies, slut, lies, slut......" so loud and long.

I say - at this point they are simply proving what Knox (and other women) have been saying. So perhaps there is a use for them.
I doubt there'll be another series. Sluts tend to be very boring people. One trick ponies.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:14 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes. This and other related incidents very clearly points to the opinion that the judges in the Massei trial (and, as is widely reported elsewhere, judges in trials - especially first-instance trials - throughout Italy) had already formed the default view that the prosecutors' case (prosecutors, remember, who were literal and emotional friends/allies of judges, as members of the very same judicial group) was effectively likely to be sound, fair and objective - and that by contrast any defence objections were effectively likely to nothing more or less than sophistic attempts to thwart justice.


I've said it before, etc, etc..... but Italian criminal justice is fundamentally unfit for purpose (its purpose being the fair and accurate application of justice as it is defined in modern liberalised-democracy jurisprudence and ethics, in as speedy a manner as is practicably possible, with ample safeguards and correctional procedures and proper levels of accountability). Italy itself is broken in so very many ways. Gorgeous place to go for short holidays - but horrible place to try to do business, or in which to live as an expat (it may be great for years, but as soon as you're either a victim or a suspect of any sort of crime, or you get embroiled in any kind of civil dispute, or regulatory dispute, or dispute with local or central government.....)
Contract law is completely different from criminal law. In Italy one is expected to bend over backwards to allow a provider of services to put right your complaints about their service/s. In criminal law once again, the defendant is given the upper hand, with two automatic rights to appeal, all the way up to the Supreme Court and 50% get off.

If the murder had happened in Texas, the pair would have fried on Old Smoky by now.
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Old 21st May 2018, 01:07 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I doubt there'll be another series. Sluts tend to be very boring people. One trick ponies.
Just couldn't resist slut-shaming. You also don't get - at all - how your disgusting posts contribute to the need for the series.

Keep posting, there'll be a second season.
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Old 21st May 2018, 01:22 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The picture of Francesco at Rocco's memorial is in ISF archives.
The. Memorial. Was. Cancelled.

The. Claim. You. Made. Above. Is. A. Lie.
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Old 21st May 2018, 01:24 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Knox had been lying in wait for Mez ever since she returned from having a GREAT time at Halloween. She was up at her usual 5:00am to confront Mez at the cottage. Still there when Mez finally got up at about one or two. Raff came around to join her. Mez was off again out of the door leaving Knox to seethe at Mez' popularity and great social life, whilst she had none. Just a weird wimpy boyfriend who took drugs, whilst Mez' handsome boyfriend went ski-ing.
Please stop using the familiar name for the victim.

There was no premeditation. No one was "lying in wait", save for Rudy Guede who'd broken in and was there when the victim came home.
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Old 21st May 2018, 01:43 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Knox had been lying in wait for Mez ever since she returned from having a GREAT time at Halloween. She was up at her usual 5:00am to confront Mez at the cottage. Still there when Mez finally got up at about one or two. Raff came around to join her. Mez was off again out of the door leaving Knox to seethe at Mez' popularity and great social life, whilst she had none. Just a weird wimpy boyfriend who took drugs, whilst Mez' handsome boyfriend went ski-ing.
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Old 21st May 2018, 03:49 PM   #269
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The latest misstatements from one or more guilters include the following delusional comments:

"...the Italian Scientific Police followed ENSFI standards.
....
Their aim is to produce objective result. They could not care less about the nonentity 'personalities' involved, nor would they succumb to threats to their objectivity."

The statement by the Marasca CSC panel - which is obviously the statement of Italian judicial authorities, and not the statement of an anonymous online poster - however, states the following:

"4.1 .... In homicides such as this (such pressure) affects not only the timing but also the competence and the correctness of the investigative activities. Not only this, but when – as in this case – the outcome of such research depends greatly on scientific investigations, the aseptic collection of all the samples useful for the investigation – in conditions that guarantee prior sterility that avoids possible contamination – constitutes, notably, the first prudent, shrewd and essential prelude – in its turn – of a correct analysis and “reading” of the recovered samples. So when the central point of technical activity contains specialist genetic investigations, the contribution of investigative activity is ever more relevant; credible parameters of correctness must respect international standards of protocols, following fundamental rules of approach prescribed by the scientific community, on the basis of statistical and validated observations.
The rigorous respect of such methodical norms offers a conventional coefficient of acceptable credibility of such results, primarily linked to their reproducibility - namely the possibility of obtaining these results, and only these, reproduced with a constantly identical method and under identical conditions, according to fundamental empirical rules. ....

4.2 As will be seen, all of this is essentially missing from the present trial. ....

7.1 ....
In making implicit reference to judicial interpretation of legitimacy, the judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] didn’t hesitate to attribute evidentiary value to the aforementioned {genetic, DNA profile} results (f. 217).

The assumption cannot be shared.

.... As a general rule, it is possible to adhere to these conclusions {of the evidenciary value of DNA profile results}, on the condition though that the activity of collecting samples, storage and analysis of the exhibits has respected the regulations of the experience approved by the protocols of the profession. Which must also be true, a fortiori [even more so], even in the lesser case, where the findings of the analysis don’t provide a successful identification, but rather only of compatibility.

The principle of the necessary correctness of the method in the phase of collection, storage and analysis of the data examined, so as to preserve its integrity and authenticity, was stated by this Court ....

The justifiable reasoning lies, in the opinion of this Court, in the same notion of circumstantial evidence offered by the legal code, that, in Article 192 section 2, orders that “The existence of a fact cannot be deduced from pieces of circumstantial evidence unless they are serious, precise and consistent”, with the outcome that an element of evidence of the case, to qualify as being circumstantial evidence, must have the characteristics of seriousness, preciseness and consistency ....

Taking into account such considerations one really cannot see how the results of the genetic analysis – that were performed in violation of the recommendations for the protocols regarding the collection and storage – can be considered endowed of the characteristics of seriousness and preciseness.

....these rules epitomise the standards for [determining] the reliability of the results of the analysis, whether it is to determine identity, or merely compatibility with a specific genetic profile. Otherwise, no importance can be given to the acquired data, not even as circumstantial evidence (cf. Section 2, n. 2476 of 27/11/2014, dep. 2015, Santangelo, Rv. 261866, on the necessity of correct storage of the material containing genetic profiles, for the purposes of “repeatability” of technical findings capable of extrapolating the genetic profile; repeatability that is, moreover, dependent on the quantity of the trace and the quality of the DNA present on the biological exhibits collected; id. N. 2476/14 cit. Rv. 261867).

...it is absolutely certain that those methods were not complied with (cf., among others, ff. 206-207 and the cited requested findings of the expert report Conte-Vecchiotti, ordered by the Perugian Court of Appeal). ...."
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Old 21st May 2018, 03:56 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is plenty of material on this topic already, so please do a search and get up to speed.
Good try but not only did I do my homework but I published not only the content of CPP Article 530 but provided a link to it for you. You are wrong and, as we've so often seen in the past, you refuse to admit it.

Why don't YOU provide us the content of 530.2 since you're the one claiming what I (and others) have posted is wrong.
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:08 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Contract law is completely different from criminal law. In Italy one is expected to bend over backwards to allow a provider of services to put right your complaints about their service/s. In criminal law once again, the defendant is given the upper hand, with two automatic rights to appeal, all the way up to the Supreme Court and 50% get off.

If the murder had happened in Texas, the pair would have fried on Old Smoky by now.

Texas Cowboy: Any last meal request?

Amanda Knox: I'd really like to say I'm dying for a pizza but it doesn't seem right.
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:09 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Good try but not only did I do my homework but I published not only the content of CPP Article 530 but provided a link to it for you. You are wrong and, as we've so often seen in the past, you refuse to admit it.

Why don't YOU provide us the content of 530.2 since you're the one claiming what I (and others) have posted is wrong.


"Good try"? I think you mean "bloody abysmal, mendacious, wilfully-misdirecting, weasel, intellectually-dishonest, embarrassingly poor try"......
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:13 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You've got several things wrong here:

1. Jovana's mother did not know Vanessa Sollecito. Jovana testified she met Raffaele through a mutual friend named Giovani who lived on Corso Garibaldi.

2. The suitcase was to be put on a bus, not a train.

3. Jovana's mother did not "change her mind". When she tried to give the suitcase to the bus driver, he refused to take it. Jovana said it was "not like in Serbia" where, apparently, this was not unusual.

No one in Italy. But, according to Jovana, it was done in Serbia where she and her mother were from. It was a simple cultural misunderstanding and not the conspiracy you'd like to believe.

Try reading the court testimony.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your pal, Stacyhs, made this claim. Are you calling her a liar?

If someone is lying here, it's not me.

When asked about how the suitcase was supposed to arrive, Jovana P. replied:

Quote:
With a bus which arrived at midnight, but at that point I was unaware that one could not send things this way in Italy so, I went by Raffaele’s to ask…
(Court Hearing of March 21, 2009)

By saying that "one could not send things this way in Italy" and the fact her Serbian mother had tried to send the suitcase in this manner implies that it was done that way in Serbia. Note that I also said "apparently it was not unusual".
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:19 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Absolute nonsense: the Italian Scientific Police followed ENSFI standards.

Stop insulting a team of highly qualified competent scientists who've entered the police forensics team as amongst the best of their generation.

Their aim is to produce objective result. They could not care less about the nonentity 'personalities' involved, nor would they succumb to threats to their objectivity.
o ENSFI requires multiple tests before DNA results can be considered reliable. Even the RIS expert witness testified a single sample can not be considered reliable, even for standard tests, let alone LCN. Stefanoni failed to amplify more than once on all critical DNA samples.

o ENSFI requires you not perform LCN profiling in a lab not certified for such tests. You should never perform LCN profiling in a lab that has already processed DNA from the suspected sources. Neither of these procedures were followed.

o ENSFI certainly does not endorse an unqualified police officer, in a non-sterile environment like a police station, to remove an item of evidence from a sealed collection bag and then place in inside a non-sterile box sitting on the desk and not appropriate for evidence collection.

o I doubt ENSFI would consider it good practice to store a piece of metal in a plastic container, allowing the evidence to rust and become unusable.

o ENSFI would not have considered the extra male alleles on the bra clasp as 'stutter' and failed to report them.

o I doubt ENSFI would consider it good practice to pick up a piece of evidence with a dirty glove, stroke it, pass it alone to other technicians and then put that piece of evidence back down on the ground to photograph it.

o I doubt anyone following ENSFI would consider DNA negative, TMB negative samples to nonetheless be samples of the victim's blood.

These are just a few things that quickly come to mind. There's a reason why every single expert, world wide, who has looked at this case and commented has been exceedingly critical of how Stefanoni and the Scientific Police handled the case. It's why the court, in acquitted Amanda and Raffaele, was extremely critical of Stefanoni and the SP. You calling this nonsense is about as useful as declaring it "dark" at midnight.
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:21 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't do yourself down. However, you can change.
When I wrote that, I made a bet with myself what your response would be. I won that bet. You are nothing if not predictable.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The picture of Francesco at Rocco's memorial is in ISF archives.
Sure it is. Which is why you produced it as evidence in order to unequivocally prove you were right. Oh, wait....No. You didn't. Now, why could that be?

(Note to self: Vixen will claim it's not her job to produce evidence of her claims and/or we're too lazy to look it up ourselves.)
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:23 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Contract law is completely different from criminal law. In Italy one is expected to bend over backwards to allow a provider of services to put right your complaints about their service/s. In criminal law once again, the defendant is given the upper hand, with two automatic rights to appeal, all the way up to the Supreme Court and 50% get off.

If the murder had happened in Texas, the pair would have fried on Old Smoky by now.

Well now.... firstly, this post is a whole load of non sequitur if it's meant as a "reply" to mine. What on Earth has contract law got to do with anything whatsoever (especially in respect of the point my post was actually making)?

And secondly, you really do have to stop with this crap about "the defendant is given the upper hand" in Italian criminal justice. Are you seriously unaware that the appeal court and SC reviews are set out to potentially benefit the prosecution just as much as the defence? Are you really that uninformed about this after all these years? Do you really still not understand that in THIS VERY CASE, the Chieffi SC panel effectively overturned the Hellmann acquittals, in a decision which (unless you're on a totally different planet....) rather definitely benefited the prosecutors and not the defence?

Thirdly, if you're claiming that "50% get off", well now then: what are you terming "getting off"? Are you suggesting that these 50% are people who are factually guilty but who manage to evade justice? Or are you suggesting that these 50% are factually innocent? See: you can't have it both ways on this, Vixen. A rational, critical thinker, if confronted by a statistic (if it's true and reliable) showing that 50% of criminal defendants in Italian trials are ultimately acquitted, would immediately have three thoughts: either 1) Italian law enforcement institutions and prosecutors are manifestly and institutionally incompetent at doing their jobs properly in terms of investigating and prosecuting cases; 2) Italian prosecutors are charging and trying far, far too many people whom they have little realistic chance of seeing convicted by the courts (and, by necessary extension, they are treating suspects unjustly); and/or 3) Italian courts are institutionally incompetent, even when factually guilty defendants are put before them.

But they wouldn't think what you apparently thought about people "getting off".

And lastly, regarding your stupid final sentence: death sentence cases in US states get an automatic appeal in any case (you clearly didn't even know that, did you?). Oh and the death penalty in Texas is by lethal injection now (and has been for many, many years now). You didn't know that either, did you?
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:29 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well now.... firstly, this post is a whole load of non sequitur if it's meant as a "reply" to mine. What on Earth has contract law got to do with anything whatsoever (especially in respect of the point my post was actually making)?

And secondly, you really do have to stop with this crap about "the defendant is given the upper hand" in Italian criminal justice. Are you seriously unaware that the appeal court and SC reviews are set out to potentially benefit the prosecution just as much as the defence? Are you really that uninformed about this after all these years? Do you really still not understand that in THIS VERY CASE, the Chieffi SC panel effectively overturned the Hellmann acquittals, in a decision which (unless you're on a totally different planet....) rather definitely benefited the prosecutors and not the defence?

Thirdly, if you're claiming that "50% get off", well now then: what are you terming "getting off"? Are you suggesting that these 50% are people who are factually guilty but who manage to evade justice? Or are you suggesting that these 50% are factually innocent? See: you can't have it both ways on this, Vixen. A rational, critical thinker, if confronted by a statistic (if it's true and reliable) showing that 50% of criminal defendants in Italian trials are ultimately acquitted, would immediately have three thoughts: either 1) Italian law enforcement institutions and prosecutors are manifestly and institutionally incompetent at doing their jobs properly in terms of investigating and prosecuting cases; 2) Italian prosecutors are charging and trying far, far too many people whom they have little realistic chance of seeing convicted by the courts (and, by necessary extension, they are treating suspects unjustly); and/or 3) Italian courts are institutionally incompetent, even when factually guilty defendants are put before them.

But they wouldn't think what you apparently thought about people "getting off".

And lastly, regarding your stupid final sentence: death sentence cases in US states get an automatic appeal in any case (you clearly didn't even know that, did you?). Oh and the death penalty in Texas is by lethal injection now (and has been for many, many years now). You didn't know that either, did you?

I did know that too. Old Smoky remains a euphemism for being topped by the state.

Yes, death row prisoners get an appeal. One of the 13 - 15 steps includes confessing your crime and another showing remorse, including apologising to their victim's family.

Instead we have the pair gloating and defiantly spitting in the eye of justice.
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:30 PM   #278
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[quote=TruthCalls;12300673]Good try but not only did I do my homework but I published not only the content of CPP Article 530 but provided a link to it for you. You are wrong and, as we've so often seen in the past, you refuse to admit it.

Why don't YOU provide us the content of 530.2 since you're the one claiming what I (and others) have posted is wrong.[/QUOTE]

No, no, no, TC! Don't you understand by now that Vixen only has to claim something is so? She does not have to actually provide evidence. As the SNL Church Lady would say, "Well now, isn't she special?"
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:31 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The. Memorial. Was. Cancelled.

The. Claim. You. Made. Above. Is. A. Lie.
The parade through the streets was banned. There was a memorial service. Can't stop the priest from doing what he likes in his own church.
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:34 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Good try but not only did I do my homework but I published not only the content of CPP Article 530 but provided a link to it for you. You are wrong and, as we've so often seen in the past, you refuse to admit it.

Why don't YOU provide us the content of 530.2 since you're the one claiming what I (and others) have posted is wrong.
It's been done several times, including a citation by a professor at Bath Uni, an expert in Italian history and law.
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