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Old 9th June 2018, 09:44 AM   #41
Mojo
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do we have to wait until we have a produced a generation of children with mental defects to say non-ionizing radiation is a health risk?

No, we’ve already got plenty of people who are prepared to make unsupported statements.
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Old 9th June 2018, 09:44 AM   #42
dann
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Let me see.

Leaded petrol.
Smoking tobacco.
Taking radium for health benefits.
Thalidomide.

I could go on but perhaps you get my point.

My underline bold.

It is rational to try to avoid those. 'Electrosmog', not so much.
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Old 9th June 2018, 10:29 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think we need to consider shutting down the sun!

Just wait till he finds out about DHMO!
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Old 9th June 2018, 10:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have not idea what he is willing to do, but you keep ignoring this part where he emphasizes that he thinks that he can't handle it unlike somebody in full health: "My immune system is fighting a battle against inflammation from a bat fungus. Cancer is just being kept at bay.)"

But since the damage is probably imaginary anyway, it doesn't really matter.
Not ignored anything relevant to the point I was making.
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Old 9th June 2018, 11:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
See? That’s how dangerous these towers are, even if they aren’t switched on!

It's due to the Quantum Tunneling Effect. (You have to invoke the word "quantum" because it is magical and means anything can happen and all those silly scientists aren't smart enough to understand it.)

The massive concentration of electromagnetic energy has caused it to tunnel back in time and cause damage even before it exists.

Pretty dangerous stuff!!!
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Old 9th June 2018, 04:02 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have not idea what he is willing to do, but you keep ignoring this part where he emphasizes that he thinks that he can't handle it unlike somebody in full health: "My immune system is fighting a battle against inflammation from a bat fungus. Cancer is just being kept at bay.)"

But since the damage is probably imaginary anyway, it doesn't really matter.
Hence the phrase "batcrap crazy"...
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:32 AM   #47
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Disclaimer: This post is not meant to be nasty. Just the truth as I see it.


Before I reply to individual posts, let me say that I seem to be up against a group of TOTALLY BIASED individuals who are pre-judging based on their stereotypical view that "once branded a woo, always a woo".

Some of you are just here to get your jollies by sarcastic dumping on another poster (me). That is part of forums I guess.

But some you are so aligned with what the "authorities" tell you you are incapable are independent thought and judgment.

I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.

Like the bad olive oil in Spain which was never proven by testing because they could not get hold of a sample (it was all consumed), but the 300 affected were given credibility because of consistency.

Am going to learn anything technical here?
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:19 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.

No, because they cannot establish causality. The reported ill effects could be the result of the placebo effect, or they could simply be coincidence. When this sort of thing is controlled for, the apparent effects disappear. See, for example, the review of controlled provocation trials linked to on the previous page.

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Am going to learn anything technical here?

If you read the responses you’ve been given, yes.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:27 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
But some of you so aligned with what the "authorities" tell you you are incapable are independent thought and judgment.
By "the authorities" you apparently mean carefully controlled and unbiased testing by people who actually know what they're doing. Their conclusions may not be 100% reliable (nothing ever is, which is why we have occasional mistakes like the thalidomide tragedy) but they are a lot more reliable than those of credulous ignoramuses who have nothing to go on but their subjective experiences.

Quote:
I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.
Correct.

This is not complicated, PartSkeptic. People have convinced themselves of all sorts of things which turned out not to be true, from the belief that doing a rain dance makes it rain to that blood letting and homeopathy are effective medical treatments, by relying on their subjective experiences rather than gathering objective evidence.

The scientific method is not perfect, but findings obtained using it are a damn sight more reliable than those obtained any other way.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This needs clarification. During use, thyratrons can produce x-rays if the voltage is high. They do not, however, become radioactive, in the sense that they do not give off ionizing radiation while the device is unpowered.
Yes, some of the internal parts become radioactive.

I'm not sure exactly how, but I have worked with the devices and we were strongly warned not to touch the parts if one was broken.

ETA: According to this http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.trans...ratron.en.html the hazard is in the X-ray emission. I will look for confirmation of the claim for residual radioactivity.

ETA ETA; Ah, here: https://books.google.dk/books?id=Osw...tivity&f=false

It is not clear whether radioactive materials were used in manufacture, or whether they become radioactive during use.

Anyhow, the point is that all this does not apply to cell-phone towers.


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Old 10th June 2018, 03:00 AM   #51
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This sentence from your link:
Quote:
Do not remove radioactive tubes from carton until ready to use them.
seems to imply that they are already radiactive when installed, not made radioactive by use.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Disclaimer: This post is not meant to be nasty. Just the truth as I see it.


Before I reply to individual posts, let me say that I seem to be up against a group of TOTALLY BIASED individuals who are pre-judging based on their stereotypical view that "once branded a woo, always a woo".

Some of you are just here to get your jollies by sarcastic dumping on another poster (me). That is part of forums I guess.

But some you are so aligned with what the "authorities" tell you you are incapable are independent thought and judgment.

I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.

Like the bad olive oil in Spain which was never proven by testing because they could not get hold of a sample (it was all consumed), but the 300 affected were given credibility because of consistency.

Am going to learn anything technical here?
Well, you could learn technical things here, but you seem uninterested in doing so.

I could easily explain why it is that cell phone masts do not cook you like a microwave oven, for example. However, I am aware that you would simply consult the cards for verification so why should I bother?
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Old 10th June 2018, 09:01 AM   #53
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It's worth noticing that the belief in dangerous electromagnetic waves may actually kill!

"There were 13 fatalities, including the perpetrator. The shooter and 11 of the victims were killed at the scene, while a twelfth victim, 61-year-old Vishnu Pandit, died at George Washington University Hospital. All the victims killed were civilian employees or contractors. Eight others were injured, three of them from gunfire."

Quote:
Mental health issues
After the Navy Yard shooting, the media speculated that Alexis had appeared to be suffering from mental illness. The media reported that Alexis had filed a police report in Rhode Island on August 2, 2013, in which he claimed to be the victim of harassment and that he was hearing voices in his head. According to an FBI official after the shooting, Alexis was under the "belief that he was being controlled or influenced by extremely low frequency electromagnetic waves". A message later obtained by federal authorities from Alexis' personal computing devices said, "Ultra low frequency attack is what I've been subject to for the last 3 months. And to be perfectly honest, that is what has driven me to this."
Washington Navy Yard shooting: Mental health issues (Wikipedia)

Unfortunately, the FBI doesn't seem to have learned much from the case of Aaron Alexis!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th June 2018, 10:28 AM   #54
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Explain the Scientific American article that showed brain alpha waves changed with cell phone use.

No "damage" but "changes".

You guys seem to say "It will not kill you - and what is wrong with being turned into a zombie?"
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Old 10th June 2018, 11:46 AM   #55
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"... being turned into a zombie."


You mean like this?

Quote:
The arousal effects the researchers measured are equivalent to about half a cup of coffee, and many other factors in a person's surroundings will affect a night's sleep as much or more than cell phone transmissions.
The Scientific American article

That is a far cry from The Walking Dead, isn't it?

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I AGREE



Let me recommend an experiment that you can do yourself with your allegedly electro-sensitive friends:
Place a cellphone in a small cardboard box with the power on or off. The box shouldn't interfere much with the electromagnetic fields generated by the cell phone. Your friends should now be able to determine if an electromagnetic field is generated by the cell phone or not.
Do it 20 times and make sure that the test is double-blinded.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th June 2018 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
ETA ETA; Ah, here: https://books.google.dk/books?id=Osw...tivity&f=false

It is not clear whether radioactive materials were used in manufacture, or whether they become radioactive during use.
I'm positive that it was radioactive material used in the manufacture, not activated during use. In order to make something become radioactive, you need to change the makeup of the nucleus. That generally means bombarding it with other nucleons (usually neutrons, but alpha particles can also work). You can't really do it with x-rays or electrons.

Quote:
Anyhow, the point is that all this does not apply to cell-phone towers.
Absolutely correct.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:20 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Microwave exposure of sufficient energy to heat up tissue is damaging, potentially lethal.

However, many of the older cases of RADAR operators getting radiation damages were not due to the RADAR beam as such. Instead, in older RADAR sets a certain type of valve, a thyratron, was used, and parts of those became radioactive with use. Handling those components caused the damage.

Modern RADAR sets use a semiconductor called a thyristor instead, which eliminates that danger. The high-energy microwave output still poses a hazard, of course.

Hans
Close proximity to live radar or radio antenna can cause injury.
Before working aloft on naval ships the radars and Radio transmitters are stopped. Anyone working aloft has to be handed circuit links (or 'keys' as they are called) that cut the connection from the transmitter to the antenna.
These have to be placed in the hand of the man going up who hangs them on a placard by the mast or superstructure. This placard has a warning that there is a man working aloft and systems are dead.
'RF Burns' are not a rare thing even among enthusiastic radio Hams who like to repair and build their own gear.
An Air Warning radar or main radio is pushing out a huge amount of power.
Note that ships crews working on deck are within 25m of the antenna and don't suffer any ill effects.

As for Thyristors, they can still cause damage if you are within close, unshielded proximity and they have enough power going through them.


It's all to do with proximity and power.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Explain the Scientific American article that showed brain alpha waves changed with cell phone use.

No "damage" but "changes".
Radiation from cell towers enhances brain activity and makes people smarter? Fantastic!

What? I have the same justification for assuming that such changes are beneficial as you have for assuming that they are harmful, i.e. none whatever.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:36 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post

ETA ETA; Ah, here: https://books.google.dk/books?id=Osw...tivity&f=false

It is not clear whether radioactive materials were used in manufacture, or whether they become radioactive during use.
During manufacture. Those tubes contain beta emitters to guarantee ionization.
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:07 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
During manufacture. Those tubes contain beta emitters to guarantee ionization.
That may be true.

Hans
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Before I reply to individual posts, let me say that I seem to be up against a group of TOTALLY BIASED individuals who are pre-judging based on their stereotypical view that "once branded a woo, always a woo".
No. But once nonsense, always nonsense. Sorry.

Quote:
Some of you are just here to get your jollies by sarcastic dumping on another poster (me). That is part of forums I guess.

But some you are so aligned with what the "authorities" tell you you are incapable are independent thought and judgment.
Look, several of us us are engineers, even scientists. We actually try to sort the wheat from the chaff, and are basically qualified to do so.

Quote:
I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.
No, anecdotes are always doubtful. Problem is, people may have experienced what they say, but nobody can know the actual reason. It is easy to point at cellphones, but really: Who is NOT using cellphones?

Quote:
Am going to learn anything technical here?
If you really wanna listen, you are going to learn a LOT of technical stuff here. But be prepared to discover that it does not all support your ideas.

Hans
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That may be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_cathode <- search for "beta".
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Disclaimer: This post is not meant to be nasty. Just the truth as I see it.


Before I reply to individual posts, let me say that I seem to be up against a group of TOTALLY BIASED individuals who are pre-judging based on their stereotypical view that "once branded a woo, always a woo".

Some of you are just here to get your jollies by sarcastic dumping on another poster (me). That is part of forums I guess.

But some you are so aligned with what the "authorities" tell you you are incapable are independent thought and judgment.

I have had two "anecdotes" about people experiencing ill-effects from overuse of their cell-phone. But they do not count do they? Unless they are part of an scientific survey that give their stories some credence.

Like the bad olive oil in Spain which was never proven by testing because they could not get hold of a sample (it was all consumed), but the 300 affected were given credibility because of consistency.

Am going to learn anything technical here?

This may not be the best comparison.

I'm pretty sure there is no shortage of samples of cell phones.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:18 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Radiation from cell towers enhances brain activity and makes people smarter? Fantastic!

What? I have the same justification for assuming that such changes are beneficial as you have for assuming that they are harmful, i.e. none whatever.
Sound like the premise for yet another Fantastic Four reboot.

Doctor Doom harnesses the power of vibranium to supercharge the world's cellular network and then take over the world.

But Reed Richards has prior art - and superpowers derived from a vibranium-cellphone lab accident. Doom has powers, too, but the Fantastic Foir's secret ingredient is accidental cosmic rays, and so the heroes prevail. But Doctor Doom will return, in Fantastic Four 2: The Return of Doctor Doom.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:43 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The use of cellular technology is not new or unique to these locations. The symptoms observed here are new and unique to these locations. Whatever it is, it isn't cellular technology.
(snip)
When asked if you are certain you say you are!

Wow. The experts do not know but you know for sure it is not cell EM.

You must work for a cell-phone company, or have lots of stock.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:46 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Close proximity to live radar or radio antenna can cause injury.
Before working aloft on naval ships the radars and Radio transmitters are stopped. Anyone working aloft has to be handed circuit links (or 'keys' as they are called) that cut the connection from the transmitter to the antenna.
These have to be placed in the hand of the man going up who hangs them on a placard by the mast or superstructure. This placard has a warning that there is a man working aloft and systems are dead.
'RF Burns' are not a rare thing even among enthusiastic radio Hams who like to repair and build their own gear.
An Air Warning radar or main radio is pushing out a huge amount of power.
Note that ships crews working on deck are within 25m of the antenna and don't suffer any ill effects.

As for Thyristors, they can still cause damage if you are within close, unshielded proximity and they have enough power going through them.


It's all to do with proximity and power.
These towers all have warnings about turning off before working on/in them.

What about exposure time? Is that not a factor?

Did the radium that killed people who took it for health reasons take a long time to have an effect?
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:48 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Radiation from cell towers enhances brain activity and makes people smarter? Fantastic!

What? I have the same justification for assuming that such changes are beneficial as you have for assuming that they are harmful, i.e. none whatever.

Where did it say smarter? Your bias makes you a conclusion jumper.

It says it disturbs sleep. That is not smarter.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No. But once nonsense, always nonsense. Sorry.



Look, several of us us are engineers, even scientists. We actually try to sort the wheat from the chaff, and are basically qualified to do so.



No, anecdotes are always doubtful. Problem is, people may have experienced what they say, but nobody can know the actual reason. It is easy to point at cellphones, but really: Who is NOT using cellphones?



If you really wanna listen, you are going to learn a LOT of technical stuff here. But be prepared to discover that it does not all support your ideas.

Hans

I am waiting but yet have to read some words of wisdom. Having done my research, I am aware of just about everything said here.

As for cell phone use, I limit mine to as little as possible. About 7 calls a week and about 10 SMSs. I will not use the hands free set but instead use the landline phone.

Are cell phones great? Absolutely. Is nuclear power great? Absolutely but not in my back yard.
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:00 AM   #69
ferd burfle
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PartSkeptic once again has us playing that favorite game of fringe idea promoters, called "Hey Skeptics, Prove I'm Wrong", which falls under the heading of "Let's Poke the Skeptics With a Stick".

PS, you know the drill - you need to provide good scientific evidence if you want to make a scientific case for your idea. Your claim, your burden to proof. You offer us anecdotes in lieu of good evidence and then complain when we don't accept it. I seem to recall we've played this same game with you before.

ETA: You do know you're posting in the science subform, right?
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Old 11th June 2018, 01:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And a professor I spoke with said "One cannot prove a negative".

Which is why you have the burden of proof.
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Old 11th June 2018, 01:26 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
When asked if you are certain you say you are!

Wow. The experts do not know but you know for sure it is not cell EM.

You must work for a cell-phone company, or have lots of stock.
The experts do know that the symptoms experienced by our diplomats in Cuba and China are not due to cell phones. If cell phones have negative effects, they are at a level below that experienced by these diplomats. None of your sources have claimed or suggested otherwise.
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Old 11th June 2018, 01:35 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
These towers all have warnings about turning off before working on/in them.
So don't work on them without turning them off.

Quote:
What about exposure time? Is that not a factor?
Depends. I can stick my hand in liquid nitrogen for a short time without damage, but if I leave it in long enough I might have to amputate my hand. But I can stick my hand in 50 degree F water for an indefinite period of time without damage.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 11th June 2018, 02:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, you could learn technical things here, but you seem uninterested in doing so.

I could easily explain why it is that cell phone masts do not cook you like a microwave oven, for example. However, I am aware that you would simply consult the cards for verification so why should I bother?
TBF, I find the EM nomenclature unnecessarily hyperbolic (and confusing).


Quote:
Legend:
γ = Gamma rays

HX = Hard X-rays
SX = Soft X-Rays

EUV = Extreme-ultraviolet
NUV = Near-ultraviolet

Visible light (colored bands)

NIR = Near-infrared
MIR = Mid-infrared
FIR = Far-infrared

EHF = Extremely high frequency (microwaves)
SHF = Super-high frequency (microwaves)

UHF = Ultrahigh frequency (radio waves)
VHF = Very high frequency (radio)
HF = High frequency (radio)
MF = Medium frequency (radio)
LF = Low frequency (radio)
VLF = Very low frequency (radio)
VF = Voice frequency
ULF = Ultra-low frequency (radio)
SLF = Super-low frequency (radio)
ELF = Extremely low frequency(radio)
I would have preferred something that compares every Frequency to Gamma Rays - with GR being (Totally Badass Ninja Frequency!*) and what is today called ELF being (Total Suckfest Frequency!).

* Or perhaps Totally Awesome Badass Frequency with VL being just (Awesome Frequency because we can, like, totally see it, dude!)


Oops, forgot something for Part Skeptic!

Oh, dear ...


https://petapixel.com/2018/06/07/a-radioactive-lens/

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Old 11th June 2018, 08:02 PM   #74
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
TBF, I find the EM nomenclature unnecessarily hyperbolic (and confusing).




I would have preferred something that compares every Frequency to Gamma Rays - with GR being (Totally Badass Ninja Frequency!*) and what is today called ELF being (Total Suckfest Frequency!).

* Or perhaps Totally Awesome Badass Frequency with VL being just (Awesome Frequency because we can, like, totally see it, dude!)

<snip>

Yet another useful XKCD strip.
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:11 AM   #75
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An interesting unit of radiation exposure is the banana equivalent
http://www.ppe.gla.ac.uk/~protopop/t...NPP/P2-NPP.pdf
For those interested the fatal dose of bananas is 100,000,000 (from radiation poisoning).
Just where you live makes a difference. Some houses in the UK (Cornwall) can be unsaleable because of radon accumulation leaking from the granite Living at altitude increases your radiation exposure to cosmic rays essentially pretty similar to x or gamma rays. Up north we can see the cosmic rays sweeping in most (winter) nights.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:14 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Where did it say smarter? Your bias makes you a conclusion jumper.

It says it disturbs sleep. That is not smarter.
You have a fantastic ability to completely and utterly miss the point, time after time.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:30 AM   #77
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Consider it as a stimulus to your immune system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:21 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So don't work on them without turning them off.



Depends. I can stick my hand in liquid nitrogen for a short time without damage, but if I leave it in long enough I might have to amputate my hand. But I can stick my hand in 50 degree F water for an indefinite period of time without damage.
What? You mean to say all those moisturiser ads were *lying*?

Conclusion: moisturiser prevents damage from non-ionising radiation if you don't stick your hand in liquid nitrogen for too long. Or something. You wanted logic? Wrong thread....
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:45 PM   #79
dann
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It says it disturbs sleep.

Worrying disturbs sleep, too. And you don't even have to worry about something real!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:34 AM   #80
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Mainly for those of you who can read Danish: FAKTATJEK: Er 'stråleoverfølsomhed' en anerkendt sygdom? (DR, Jun. 12, 2018) ”Fact check: Is ’radiation hypersensitivity’ a recognized disease?”

What is meant by radiation is electro-magnetic radiation. And no, it isn't recognized as an actual disease: IInternational Classification of Diseases (WHO)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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