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Old 13th June 2018, 06:49 AM   #81
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In the article, Peter la Cour doctor in Psychiatry who is head of the Knowledge Center for Functional Diseases at the Psychiatric Hospital in Copenhagen says (my translation):
Quote:
There are lots of theories, but we are not able to separate the chaff from the wheat. We simply do not know. And the patients themselves claim that it has a connection to electricity, and we respect that because it is one hypothesis among many. We also cannot say that it isn't the case, because basically, we do not know
I find that very interesting, because nowhere in this article or any other that I looked for, any hint that they made the effort to test it. It should be a simple matter to place the sick person in a Faraday cage isolated from electrical radiation. Then put in ten boxes with cell phones in them and ask the patient to tell which ones are switched on, and which ones are not. (Or one box ten times).

A nurse once told me she had treated a patient with a life-threatening condition who also had severe nausea because of cell phone radiation. The staff plastered the window with tin foil, and the patient felt much better, but they did not bother to remove all the other sources of radiation in the vicinity. The important part was to make the patient feel better, and I can respect that, whereas the concept that "there are so many theories, and this one is just as good as any other" is not something I would expect from a scientist.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:17 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
A nurse once told me she had treated a patient with a life-threatening condition who also had severe nausea because of cell phone radiation. The staff plastered the window with tin foil, and the patient felt much better, but they did not bother to remove all the other sources of radiation in the vicinity. The important part was to make the patient feel better, and I can respect that, whereas the concept that "there are so many theories, and this one is just as good as any other" is not something I would expect from a scientist.
He's not a scientist, he's a doctor. And he's saying that for the same reason the nurses put up the tin foil: to make patients feel better.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:37 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Consider it as a stimulus to your immune system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

Now this is a really good bit of information.

The complexity of field studies is demonstrated by the radioactive steel in the building dropping cancer levels.

It just might be that the radiation killed off mites and the tiny bacteria that stress a person. They may have been living in a "clean" environment.

This is the problem with all the studies showing ill-effects. How does one reduce and/or control the other factors? The agency that decides on which studies to choose simply say - "could be something else".
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:40 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You have a fantastic ability to completely and utterly miss the point, time after time.

And the point was? Treat me like a 6 year old and explain.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It just might be that the radiation killed off mites and the tiny bacteria that stress a person. They may have been living in a "clean" environment.
Nope. Smaller organisms are more resistant to such radiation than humans.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:57 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
In the article, Peter la Cour doctor in Psychiatry who is head of the Knowledge Center for Functional Diseases at the Psychiatric Hospital in Copenhagen says (my translation):


I find that very interesting, because nowhere in this article or any other that I looked for, any hint that they made the effort to test it. It should be a simple matter to place the sick person in a Faraday cage isolated from electrical radiation. Then put in ten boxes with cell phones in them and ask the patient to tell which ones are switched on, and which ones are not. (Or one box ten times).

A nurse once told me she had treated a patient with a life-threatening condition who also had severe nausea because of cell phone radiation. The staff plastered the window with tin foil, and the patient felt much better, but they did not bother to remove all the other sources of radiation in the vicinity. The important part was to make the patient feel better, and I can respect that, whereas the concept that "there are so many theories, and this one is just as good as any other" is not something I would expect from a scientist.

They used to say that Epstein-Barr sufferers were just faking illness, until they found the virus.

They also say that people who itch and doctors cannot find source are imagining their symptoms. Wrong. I can feel dust mites in a room, even just a few. And demodectic mites, even the canine variety.

But hey, you guys cannot feel these things, and because you reason we are all the same, it must be my imagination.

Perhaps I will have to try your cell phone experiment. If I can tell on or off then it will surely dent the cell-phone tower people. The problem is to get the cell-phone to continuously transmit.

I have some old circuit boards with B2B cell-phone circuits I can modify. I had started a company with a friend to make devices that would remotely ring a phone if something like a medical refrigerator went off temperature. I can measure the current draw.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:59 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. Smaller organisms are more resistant to such radiation than humans.

Did you take into account the inverse square law? They would be right next to the source.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Did you take into account the inverse square law? They would be right next to the source.
First, no, they wouldn't be right next to the source. The source was structural steel, which would be within the walls. Bacteria and mites you need to worry about are primarily not within the walls. Second, the inverse square law works for point sources. But these beams are not point sources. They are all around. The falloff with distance is much slower.

Third, the difference in radiation resistance isn't small. It's huge. So no, sterilization of the environment is not a contributing factor here.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:32 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I can feel dust mites in a room, even just a few. And demodectic mites, even the canine variety.

It's difficult to know what you mean when you write that you "can feel dust mites." If you're saying that you are allergic to dust mites - me too, by the way - the allergy can be tested using a sample of your blood. That would eliminate any suspicion that the allergy is just a delusion, imaginary.
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:10 PM   #90
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How do you feel these mites just by being in the room with them?
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:18 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How do you feel these mites just by being in the room with them?

Their hostility is palpable.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
When asked if you are certain you say you are!

Wow. The experts do not know but you know for sure it is not cell EM.

You must work for a cell-phone company, or have lots of stock.
And there it is. The accusation that anyone defending the scientific consensus must be a shill.

We all know what we're dealing with now.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:23 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
But hey, you guys cannot feel these things, and because you reason we are all the same, it must be my imagination.
Some may say that, but they are most likely wrong. In the medical world there is a growing understanding that patient's sufferings need to be taken seriously. But that does not mean that the patient's theories are correct. You may be suffering from something real, or you may be a victim of the nocebo effect, but your suffering is still real.


Quote:
Perhaps I will have to try your cell phone experiment. If I can tell on or off then it will surely dent the cell-phone tower people. The problem is to get the cell-phone to continuously transmit.
You just need to have an open call going on with sound turned off.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:12 PM   #94
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AND IT MUST BE DOUBLE-BLINDED!
I mentioned that above and I can't stress that enough. Otherwise, PartSkeptic'll be like the dowsers who are convinced at their own 'powers' because the dowsing rod always responds to the things that the dowsers already know are there.

ETA: Steen, maybe you remember this case from a couple of years ago:

Forsøg med karse i 9. klasse vækker international opsigt
Forsker afviser skolepigers karse-forsøg
It started out with the schoolgirls being convinced that sleeping next to their cell phones affected their sleep adversely. And I bet it does, but the girls were convinced that it was because of the electromagnetic radiation. However, they never double blinded their 'experiment'.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th June 2018 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:34 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Now this is a really good bit of information.

The complexity of field studies is demonstrated by the radioactive steel in the building dropping cancer levels.

It just might be that the radiation killed off mites and the tiny bacteria that stress a person. They may have been living in a "clean" environment.

This is the problem with all the studies showing ill-effects. How does one reduce and/or control the other factors? The agency that decides on which studies to choose simply say - "could be something else".
Clean environments are unhealthy. We need our parasites - some essential elements to our health are made our symbiotic gut bacteria.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:45 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
They used to say that Epstein-Barr sufferers were just faking illness, until they found the virus.

They also say that people who itch and doctors cannot find source are imagining their symptoms. Wrong. I can feel dust mites in a room, even just a few. And demodectic mites, even the canine variety.

But hey, you guys cannot feel these things, and because you reason we are all the same, it must be my imagination.

Perhaps I will have to try your cell phone experiment. If I can tell on or off then it will surely dent the cell-phone tower people. The problem is to get the cell-phone to continuously transmit.

I have some old circuit boards with B2B cell-phone circuits I can modify. I had started a company with a friend to make devices that would remotely ring a phone if something like a medical refrigerator went off temperature. I can measure the current draw.
This is untrue. The disease glandular fever / infectious mononucleosis was well known, there were tests for it. EBV was originally identified from an unusual type of childhood lymphoma* in the 1960's (now a condition strongly linked with AIDS),
co-incidently one of the researchers subsequently developed glandular fever, and seroconverted EBV status.

What actually happened was a known (new) virus was identified as the cause of a known disease. But a very different one from what the virus had originally been identified as causing.

*Burkitt's lymphoma - Burkitt himself was a bowel surgeon and his life long interest was dietary fibre; he was always a bit embarrassed that people expected him to be a scientist or expert on lymphoma or viruses. He just noticed this odd childhood lymphoma because he was doing the biopsies when he worked in Africa.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:50 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Clean environments are unhealthy. We need our parasites - some essential elements to our health are made our symbiotic gut bacteria.
Depends on how "clean" you're talking about. Very few environments are completely "clean" - pretty much everywhere outside precision engineering and organic research labs have myriads of bacteria. No commercially-available cleaning product is sufficient to produce a bacteria-free environment.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:03 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Depends on how "clean" you're talking about. Very few environments are completely "clean" - pretty much everywhere outside precision engineering and organic research labs have myriads of bacteria. No commercially-available cleaning product is sufficient to produce a bacteria-free environment.
I was really making the point that bacteria etc. are not intrinsically bad, we should not be kingdomist and define a whole group of organisms as bad because of the rogue behaviour of a few species within it. Often it is the fault of the environment those few species are in if they had the appropriate culture then they would be well behaved.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:10 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's difficult to know what you mean when you write that you "can feel dust mites." If you're saying that you are allergic to dust mites - me too, by the way - the allergy can be tested using a sample of your blood. That would eliminate any suspicion that the allergy is just a delusion, imaginary.
Pollen allergies are quite interesting in showing environment interacting with the allergen. The humidity and ionisation of the air can make a difference to the clumping of pollen grains, this then makes a difference to how long they remain floating in the air, and also the conformation of the pollen grain in a more unfolded shape they expose more allergic sites.

House dust mites are very susceptible to dehydration, there is pretty much a linear relationship between humidity and density of house dust mite. Dry environments - deserts or up cold mountains - have very low levels and many people with HDM allergy feel much better in these situations.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:24 AM   #100
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I also have a dust mite allergy and the one thing I've found to really help is washing my bed linen at 60° instead of the recommended 40°. It means I have to replace my sheets more often as they do shrink, but that's a small price to pay.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:11 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: Steen, maybe you remember this case from a couple of years ago:

Forsøg med karse i 9. klasse vækker international opsigt
Forsker afviser skolepigers karse-forsøg
It started out with the schoolgirls being convinced that sleeping next to their cell phones affected their sleep adversely. And I bet it does, but the girls were convinced that it was because of the electromagnetic radiation. However, they never double blinded their 'experiment'.
The second article that criticizes the experiment actually says that the girls are right about the cresses that do not grow close to a wifi router. Apparently, the router uses frequencies close to those of microwave ovens, and causes the water to evaporate (the article says "be absorbed"), and because of that, the cresses do not grow. The criticism is about the conclusion that mobile phones are bad, because they use different frequencies.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:12 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I also have a dust mite allergy and the one thing I've found to really help is washing my bed linen at 60° instead of the recommended 40°. It means I have to replace my sheets more often as they do shrink, but that's a small price to pay.
Interesting. I thought that at least 80° C is necessary in order to kill the critters.
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Old 14th June 2018, 02:00 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Interesting. I thought that at least 80° C is necessary in order to kill the critters.
Well of course I could be fooling myself - it could be placebo, it could just be coincidence that symptoms decreased at the same time that I started doing this. It hasn't gone completely, but it does seem to have improved.
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Old 14th June 2018, 02:24 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The second article that criticizes the experiment actually says that the girls are right about the cresses that do not grow close to a wifi router.

But other experiments don't confirm this: Læserne: Karsefrø spirer glimrende trods mobilstråling (Ingeniøren, Jun. 7, 2013)

Some articles even claim that the cresses "mutated." I wonder how they reached that conclusion!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 02:33 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I also have a dust mite allergy and the one thing I've found to really help is washing my bed linen at 60° instead of the recommended 40°. It means I have to replace my sheets more often as they do shrink, but that's a small price to pay.

The weird thing in my case is that blood tests revealed the dust-mite allergy, but it doesn't bother me at all. I've never exhibited any symptoms. However, there seems to be a connection between dust-mite and shellfish allergy, which I definitely have. (Also a very good excuse for declining whenever people offer you fried grasshoppers or ants! )
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 07:18 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Well of course I could be fooling myself - it could be placebo, it could just be coincidence that symptoms decreased at the same time that I started doing this. It hasn't gone completely, but it does seem to have improved.
No, you've got the right temperature. 60 C will take care of dust mites. Similar temperature in the dryer for 10 minutes will do it too. Note that clothes don't fully reach the dryer temperature until they are nearly dry.
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, you've got the right temperature. 60 C will take care of dust mites.

And if it doesn't, the electro-magnetic rays will!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The weird thing in my case is that blood tests revealed the dust-mite allergy, but it doesn't bother me at all. I've never exhibited any symptoms. However, there seems to be a connection between dust-mite and shellfish allergy, which I definitely have. (Also a very good excuse for declining whenever people offer you fried grasshoppers or ants! )
Not a surprise. The negative predictive value is much better than the positive predictive value. That is if you do not have anti-dust mite antibodies it is very unlikely you are allergic to dust mite, but most people with anti-dust mite antibodies do not have symptoms of allergy. Blood tests are better at ruling out allergies. To prove allergy a challenge test is better, or skin prick tests.
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:37 AM   #109
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Yes, thank you, I'm aware of that.
At one point, my food allergies were pretty bad, and I reacted to bread, both rye and wheat, which was very annoying. And it was confirmed by blood tests. However, when I got my allergies under control - by avoiding peanuts and shellfish - all the other allergies disappeared. And I went through a (double-blinded!) test where I had to drink (!) what corresponded to half a loaf of rye bread, half a loaf of wheat bread and a placebo - one a time with several days in between each test (and camouflaged with an awful artificial blueberry flavour).
I didn't have any allergy symptoms, but I had a mild case of diarrhea - the night after I'd had the placebo!
But blood tests will probably still show an allergic reaction to rye and wheat.
They never tested me for electromagnetic hypersensitivity, though ...
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Old 14th June 2018, 03:47 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, thank you, I'm aware of that.
At one point, my food allergies were pretty bad, and I reacted to bread, both rye and wheat, which was very annoying. And it was confirmed by blood tests. However, when I got my allergies under control - by avoiding peanuts and shellfish - all the other allergies disappeared. And I went through a (double-blinded!) test where I had to drink (!) what corresponded to half a loaf of rye bread, half a loaf of wheat bread and a placebo - one a time with several days in between each test (and camouflaged with an awful artificial blueberry flavour).
I didn't have any allergy symptoms, but I had a mild case of diarrhea - the night after I'd had the placebo!
But blood tests will probably still show an allergic reaction to rye and wheat.
They never tested me for electromagnetic hypersensitivity, though ...
Interesting. There is a an element that one allergy can stimulate the immune system non specifically, and what were low level allergies become significant; given several months (the half life of circulating antibodies is several weeks) of avoiding the primary allergen then the levels of antibodies to other allergens will fall. A second phenomena is that constant exposure can sometimes be better than intermittent, one way of treating severe aspirin sensitivity is to give daily aspirin, this prevents a life threatening reaction. A recent trial in England involved feeding babies of peanut sensitive parents daily peanut mush this prevented the babies developing peanut allergy. (In W. Africa peanut mush is a favoured weaning food and peanut allergy is very rare.)
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:52 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, no, they wouldn't be right next to the source. The source was structural steel, which would be within the walls. Bacteria and mites you need to worry about are primarily not within the walls. Second, the inverse square law works for point sources. But these beams are not point sources. They are all around. The falloff with distance is much slower.

Third, the difference in radiation resistance isn't small. It's huge. So no, sterilization of the environment is not a contributing factor here.

Do you really think that an increase in radiation actually benefits humans?
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you really think that an increase in radiation actually benefits humans?

If it didn’t, they wouldn’t buy so many light bulbs.
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:57 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How do you feel these mites just by being in the room with them?

Each one feels like a small bite or an itch. When I walked into a dusty office it felt like a cloud of tiny bites rising up around my legs from the carpet.

In a bedroom with mites, I could feel the bites all over.

It is very difficult to get rid of dust mites. I know how to do it now. The usual tactics did not work when they are in the bedding, the carpets, the pillows and the curtains. And in the roof spaces coming in through the cracks.
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:58 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And there it is. The accusation that anyone defending the scientific consensus must be a shill.

We all know what we're dealing with now.

It was sarcasm. The scientific consensus in this case is that they do not know.
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:59 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Clean environments are unhealthy. We need our parasites - some essential elements to our health are made our symbiotic gut bacteria.

Yes. Except for overload. I got my sensitivity to mites from a really old dusty house in Brooklyn NY.
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:02 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I also have a dust mite allergy and the one thing I've found to really help is washing my bed linen at 60° instead of the recommended 40°. It means I have to replace my sheets more often as they do shrink, but that's a small price to pay.

I was washing my sheets every day in the hottest possible water and then tumble drying them very hot. The sheets were not the problem.
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:03 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Interesting. I thought that at least 80° C is necessary in order to kill the critters.

Freezing is apparently the best "standard" method.
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:15 PM   #118
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The "non-standard" method that I discovered myself is to use finely powered boric acid on everything. It kills the dust mites within minutes.

I was losing my hair in front and suspected demodectic mites in the hair follicles. Again, I could feel them at night when they come out to mate.

I tried using Australian tea tree oil. First 20% then 100%. I even put it full strength on my eyelashes (with care). A favorite place for them. It did not help.

It took about a week of powdering myself with boric acid powder before bed time to get rid of them. And I stopped losing my hair! You can scoff all you like. I have stopped going bald, and even reversed the front and top patches.

I do not need double blind scientific tests. I know I am a dust mite detector, and my "cure" works. On this, you can test me if you want to pay for it.
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:34 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you really think that an increase in radiation actually benefits humans?
At low doses, why not?
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Old 15th June 2018, 02:14 PM   #120
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It's not "think" ....there are studies in high natural background radiation areas that support it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2477686/

and here's a mind bender from that

Quote:
The total cancer deaths in 8,600 cleanup workers at Chernobyl (who received an average of 5 cGy) was 12% lower than that of the general Russian population.

Quote:
Following a thorough literature review, the Central Research Institute of the Electric Power Industries (CRIEPI) inaugurated 15 research projects at 10 Japan universities. The resulting research papers, published in peer reviewed journals, confirmed the radiation hormesis thesis: low dose irradiation stimulates many physiologic parameters that are consistent with damage control and improved health

Last edited by macdoc; 15th June 2018 at 02:30 PM.
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