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Old 20th June 2018, 11:33 AM   #161
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Are you familiar with the saying "correlation does not equal causation"?
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

Nicholas cage movies make people drown.
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Old 20th June 2018, 11:34 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Am I right about these statements? Are they FACTS?

1. Fertility is decreasing.
2. Autism is increasing
3. ADHD is increasing
4. Alzheimers is increasing

Consumption of organic produce is increasing.
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Old 20th June 2018, 12:48 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Consumption of organic produce is increasing.
It's really hard to find inorganic produce.
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Old 20th June 2018, 06:11 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Consumption of organic produce is increasing.
Number of people playing Dungeons and Dragons is increasing.
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Old 20th June 2018, 11:55 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Consumption of organic produce is increasing.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Number of people playing Dungeons and Dragons is increasing.
Therefore eating organic produce causes people to play Dungeons and Dragons.

And decreased fertility causes Alzheimer's.

And autism causes decreased fertility.

To be clear: I'm not ruling out a causative correlation between cell phone usage and some kind of health problem. It seems unlikely but many things that seemed unlikely turned out to be true, and the data that's been gathered and analysed is not yet sufficient to rule it out. But "PartSkeptic has a gut feeling" is not part of that data. It's an utterly worthless observation.
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Old 21st June 2018, 12:11 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Bioinitiative
How much effort did you expend assessing the reliability of this source?
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Old 21st June 2018, 12:50 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
It's really hard to find inorganic produce.

But there are so many other inorganic alternatives.
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Old 21st June 2018, 01:22 AM   #168
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There is a definite correlation between the length of a thread and the degree of tenuousness of claims made. I call this the Bonkers Gradient(TM)

There is also a definite correlation between my eating porridge and the number of random assertions in this thread. Ergo, porridge increases assertiveness.

Shut up.
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Old 21st June 2018, 01:30 AM   #169
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Sorry, I missed this one, and I think you're actually on to something here:

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Can I argue that my "fear" of cell radiation is "real" and therefore the tower is a health hazard?

It depends on your definition of health, but you could definitely argue that your fear of cell radiation threatens your well-being. You can argue that about almost anything, so it's a good idea to distinguish between rational and irrational fears and rational and irrational solutions to these fears.
If you have a fear of measles, for instance, it may actually be rational, depending on the level of fear: The virus makes you sick, and in (nowadays and in our part of the world) extreme cases, it may even kill you. The rational solution to the problem is to be vaccinated against the disease - unless you belong to one of these minorities.
However, if you fear the color yellow, then you are suffering from xanthophobia. Your fear is 100% irrational so the color doesn't really threaten your well-being, but your phobia does. Trying to eliminate or avoid the color is the wrong way to deal with the problem.

The first step of a rational solution to your fear of cell-phone radiation is to carry out the (double-blinded!) experiment to determine if you can actually sense the difference between a cell-phone that's turned on and one that isn't. (You may even consider to have somebody remove the battery entirely to make sure that there is no electromagnetic radiation whatsoever.)
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Old 21st June 2018, 05:17 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But there are so many other inorganic alternatives.

"It's a floor wax and a dessert topping!"
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Old 21st June 2018, 06:05 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
How much effort did you expend assessing the reliability of this source?

Here is an article (actually a book) for all you scoffers.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/197...0cf8b26a8f.pdf

After you have properly read this, try telling me why cell phones are safe, and that they are CERTAINLY NOT to blame for consulate problems.

My instincts were (once more) correct as far as I am concerned.

The heating effects are being used as the "gold standard" for safety. Low-level triggering effects are grudgingly being acknowledged by the industry but being sidelined for obvious reasons.

They are finding that pulsed and resonant microwaves cause problems. This is a new field of study that is difficult to get repeatable experiments.

Another problem is scaling. A rat is rather small compared to a human.
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Old 21st June 2018, 06:19 AM   #172
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I like this quote from the book (IEEE Wiley 2007)

"The sun may well warm a plant. Nobody says, however, that the action of the sunlight on a plant is exclusively thermal."
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Old 21st June 2018, 08:27 AM   #173
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Old 21st June 2018, 08:32 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Here is an article (actually a book) for all you scoffers.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/197...0cf8b26a8f.pdf

After you have properly read this, try telling me why cell phones are safe, and that they are CERTAINLY NOT to blame for consulate problems.

My instincts were (once more) correct as far as I am concerned.

The heating effects are being used as the "gold standard" for safety. Low-level triggering effects are grudgingly being acknowledged by the industry but being sidelined for obvious reasons.

They are finding that pulsed and resonant microwaves cause problems. This is a new field of study that is difficult to get repeatable experiments.

Another problem is scaling. A rat is rather small compared to a human.
Tell you what - it's your claim you tell us why - once you've properly read the book of course.
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Old 21st June 2018, 11:44 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Tell you what - it's your claim you tell us why - once you've properly read the book of course.

I have read the book. It supports my claims, although it is 2007. It is however trying to steer a neutral course. The authors clearly know (and say it) the contentious issues.

No-one here has done any research, and if they have, it is to check what the agencies say. There is now a flood of studies with possible risks. The similarity to the tobacco and leaded gasoline toxicity scandals are becoming very evident.

BTW. Up to 1940 (not 1840) it was thought that defective babies were due to hereditary causes. Fetal alcohol syndrome changed that thinking.

I feel like I am debating flat-earthers.
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Old 21st June 2018, 11:45 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
“The truth isn't easily pinned to a page. In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap and much more difficult to find.”

― Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

Amen to that.
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Old 21st June 2018, 11:52 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have read the book. It supports my claims, although it is 2007.
Then it's a bit odd that you haven't actually been able to score a single point in this thread. Thus far you have not demonstrated a keen understanding of non-ionising radiation.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
No-one here has done any research, and if they have, it is to check what the agencies say. There is now a flood of studies with possible risks.
I did enough research to determine that your previous source, the Bio-Initiative Report, is published by a bunch of political activists and a consultant who delivers EMF fearmongering for dollars, and the fact that the papers published in both reports have serious quality issues and reflect excessive levels of confirmation bias.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 12:12 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Here is an article (actually a book) for all you scoffers.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/197...0cf8b26a8f.pdf.
A glance at the contents page shows that it contains no data whatsoever on correlations, let alone possibly causative correlations, between cell phone usage and health problems. The only relevant sections seem to be about mechanisms by which non ionising radiation might have an affect on biological tissue. That's akin to speculating about the mechanisms by which homeopathy might work without first establishing that it does work.

ETA: I've now scanned the book and it appears to be a fairly comprehensive summary of the research into the effects of various kinds of radiation on biological tissue. The main focus seems to be on medical uses, but there are a few mentions of general public exposure where the conclusion is usually that most studies have shown no ill effect but further studies are needed, with which I would not disagree.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:06 AM   #179
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Did you find time to do the double-blinded test yet, PartSkeptic?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:09 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Did you find time to do the double-blinded test yet, PartSkeptic?
Why does he need to do that he knows he's right?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:10 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have read the book. It supports my claims, although it is 2007. ...snip...
#

Then provide the cites to the book.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 03:46 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does he need to do that he knows he's right?

Yes, being convinced that you're right is superior to making sure that you're right!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd June 2018, 06:53 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
Then it's a bit odd that you haven't actually been able to score a single point in this thread. Thus far you have not demonstrated a keen understanding of non-ionising radiation.



I did enough research to determine that your previous source, the Bio-Initiative Report, is published by a bunch of political activists and a consultant who delivers EMF fearmongering for dollars, and the fact that the papers published in both reports have serious quality issues and reflect excessive levels of confirmation bias.

Maybe you are right about the activism and the fearmongering. Does that make them wrong about the potential hazards? I am now a committed activist. Can you please send me some dollars so I can get this tower out of our back yard? And spread the word in South Africa!


Did you know some Courts have dismissed all the reports by the ICNIRP on the basis that they are funded by the industry and are therefore not considered acceptable in terms of the standard of evidence required by the Courts?

The US is considered as behind the times, and as "captured" in terms of some of the agencies or some sections of the agencies.

Wikipedia states that Ciprofloxin is a great antibiotic with a few side effects. Reading it would make me think that it was okay to take. The Black Box warning is a bit concerning.

My daughter who is a veterinarian says that they are warned not to give young dogs the medication because it will cripple them for life. Okay for the general human population. No wonder so many people are having joint replacements. But anyone like me is just an alarmist - yes?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 07:04 AM   #184
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Needs more sequitation.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 07:19 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Maybe you are right about the activism and the fearmongering. Does that make them wrong about the potential hazards? I am now a committed activist. Can you please send me some dollars so I can get this tower out of our back yard? And spread the word in South Africa!


Did you know some Courts have dismissed all the reports by the ICNIRP on the basis that they are funded by the industry and are therefore not considered acceptable in terms of the standard of evidence required by the Courts?

The US is considered as behind the times, and as "captured" in terms of some of the agencies or some sections of the agencies.

Wikipedia states that Ciprofloxin is a great antibiotic with a few side effects. Reading it would make me think that it was okay to take. The Black Box warning is a bit concerning.

My daughter who is a veterinarian says that they are warned not to give young dogs the medication because it will cripple them for life. Okay for the general human population. No wonder so many people are having joint replacements. But anyone like me is just an alarmist - yes?

And you shouldn't give Tylenol to your cats.

Also, a vegetarian diet will kill them. Slowly and painfully.

Okay for the human population.

Cats and dogs are not humans.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 07:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Maybe you are right about the activism and the fearmongering. Does that make them wrong about the potential hazards? I am now a committed activist. Can you please send me some dollars so I can get this tower out of our back yard? And spread the word in South Africa!


Did you know some Courts have dismissed all the reports by the ICNIRP on the basis that they are funded by the industry and are therefore not considered acceptable in terms of the standard of evidence required by the Courts?

The US is considered as behind the times, and as "captured" in terms of some of the agencies or some sections of the agencies.

Wikipedia states that Ciprofloxin is a great antibiotic with a few side effects. Reading it would make me think that it was okay to take. The Black Box warning is a bit concerning.

My daughter who is a veterinarian says that they are warned not to give young dogs the medication because it will cripple them for life. Okay for the general human population. No wonder so many people are having joint replacements. But anyone like me is just an alarmist - yes?
Are you truly unaware that there are differences in how different biological species will react to different chemicals?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 07:48 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you truly unaware that there are differences in how different biological species will react to different chemicals?
Not to mention differences in how different individuals will react. I had a weird reaction to Nitrofurantoin (numbness in the fingers and shooting pains in the feet) but the alternative antibiotic my doctor promptly prescribed was fine.

As always it's a case of finding the best treatment in each case - the best one being the one that produces the most positive effect with the least side effects. Any cost benefit analysis on antibiotics will come down heavily on the plus side, they must have saved millions of lives.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 10:03 AM   #188
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How many of you subscribe to this?


Quote:
Precautionary principle: is a well-known principle in environmental law, that states there is a social responsibility to protect the public from exposure to harm, when scientific investigation has found a plausible risk. Such protections can be relaxed only if further scientific findings emerge that provide sound evidence that no harm will result.
The studies are showing plausible risk.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 11:25 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
How many of you subscribe to this?

The studies are showing plausible risk.
Most of the studies that have been done show no reason for concern, but more longer term studies are needed.

I would not spend hours every day with a mobile phone jammed against my head, but that's the extent of the precautions I consider necessary based on the information currently available.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 11:41 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
How many of you subscribe to this?




The studies are showing plausible risk.
Any chance yet of the cites?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 11:45 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The studies are showing plausible risk.
Plausible risk of what?

Not plausible risk of what some of our diplomats experienced in Cuba.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 11:54 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I can feel dust mites in a room, even just a few. And demodectic mites, even the canine variety.
No you cannot. Nothing about dust mites, human senses, or basic physics makes this possible.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:47 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post

Wikipedia states that Ciprofloxin is a great antibiotic with a few side effects. Reading it would make me think that it was okay to take. The Black Box warning is a bit concerning.

My daughter who is a veterinarian says that they are warned not to give young dogs the medication because it will cripple them for life. Okay for the general human population. No wonder so many people are having joint replacements. But anyone like me is just an alarmist - yes?
Like chocolate and onion. Don't give them to your dog it makes them ill, no wonder people are ... etc

Dogs aren't people. Antibiotics are OK to take, they cure you of things that nothing else will. They are restricted and given in controlled doses (Well they are in the UK, I don't know about the USA)

Anyway this is a diversion from your OP.

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Old 22nd June 2018, 10:16 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Maybe you are right about the activism and the fearmongering. Does that make them wrong about the potential hazards? I am now a committed activist. Can you please send me some dollars so I can get this tower out of our back yard? And spread the word in South Africa!


Did you know some Courts have dismissed all the reports by the ICNIRP on the basis that they are funded by the industry and are therefore not considered acceptable in terms of the standard of evidence required by the Courts?

The US is considered as behind the times, and as "captured" in terms of some of the agencies or some sections of the agencies.

Wikipedia states that Ciprofloxin is a great antibiotic with a few side effects. Reading it would make me think that it was okay to take. The Black Box warning is a bit concerning.

My daughter who is a veterinarian says that they are warned not to give young dogs the medication because it will cripple them for life. Okay for the general human population. No wonder so many people are having joint replacements. But anyone like me is just an alarmist - yes?


You do not give ciprofloxacin to young or pregnant humans for the same reason. Yes it is OK for the general population of adult humans. But not great if you have epilepsy, and don't go tanning when you are taking it, as it is a photosensitiser. Joint replacements and arthritis were an issue before ciprofloxacin was around. Tetracyclines aren't used in pregnant women or young children either. It is worth remembering that antibiotics by definition are natural. They are produced by fungi or bacteria to kill off other bacteria.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 03:29 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
[/hilite]

You do not give ciprofloxacin to young or pregnant humans for the same reason. Yes it is OK for the general population of adult humans. But not great if you have epilepsy, and don't go tanning when you are taking it, as it is a photosensitiser. Joint replacements and arthritis were an issue before ciprofloxacin was around. Tetracyclines aren't used in pregnant women or young children either. It is worth remembering that antibiotics by definition are natural. They are produced by fungi or bacteria to kill off other bacteria.


This is an important parallel to cell phone radiation.

Ciprofloxin destroys certain good cells. Cartilage does not replace itself, so when destroyed it stays destroyed. Is this an "either/or" effect, or a linear effect?

Does everyone who takes ciprofloxin get "some damage", or do some get "no damage". Do those who get "some damage" just not notice it? Why do some people get "wrecked" by it?

How do you tell whether a man with damaged knee joints has the condition because of athletics when younger, or because of genetics, or because of Ciprofloxin, or because of all of these?

You do know that the EMF standard is based on a 200 lb man who is in excellent health? What about children? What about the elderly and the sick? Or should we be killing off the weak? Bring back eugenics?

BTW - Arsenic is also "natural". Nature has an amazing balance. Our weather and the biosphere is a fine example. Global warming? Bah - humbug say some.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 03:32 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No you cannot. Nothing about dust mites, human senses, or basic physics makes this possible.

So what am I feeling?

Why can I "cure" it.

And explain why it is physically impossible?

I think you are another who has a cast-in-stone belief system.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 03:56 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have read the book. It supports my claims, although it is 2007. I ...snip....

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
#

Then provide the cites to the book.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any chance yet of the cites?

Any time soon?
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Old 23rd June 2018, 06:54 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any time soon?

I notice that he hasn’t responded to Pixel42’s recent posts either.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 07:35 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So what am I feeling?



Why can I "cure" it.
I have no idea what you are feeling, but it is certainly an established fact that people can feel things that are not actually there, and they can go through some ritual, like killing bugs, that makes the feeling good away.

It may not be what is happening here, but it is naive to ignore the possibility.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 09:04 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
How do you tell whether a man with damaged knee joints has the condition because of athletics when younger, or because of genetics, or because of Ciprofloxin, or because of all of these?
By using the scientific method to compare different populations you can get a pretty good idea how much each contributes to the total incidence of damaged knee joints, even if you can't determine the exact contribution of each for any particular individual.
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