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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 10th June 2018, 12:40 PM   #121
Axxman300
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This is the relevant timeline per the rifle, and there is a logical through-line:

25, January, 1963 - Oswald makes the final two payments on the State Department loan that got him back from Russia.

27, January - Oswald orders a Smith & Wesson .38 from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95.

9 or 10, March - Oswald takes a picture of the home of General Walker's home.

12, March - Oswald orders the Carcano from Klein's.

20, March - Oswald picks up the .38 from the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas. The weapon was paid for C.O.D.

25, March - Oswald picks up the rifle from the post office. (The rifle arrived at the post office on 20, March)

31, March - Oswald has Marina take the backyard photos of him with his arsenal.

1, April - Oswald is fired from his job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall with his final day being 6, April.

At some point Oswald stashes the Carcano near the Walker residence.

10, April - Oswald attempts to kill General Walker.

14, April - Oswald retrieves his Carcano from where he stashed it after the shooting.

17, April - Oswald makes plans to move to New Orleans.

24, April - Oswald takes the bus to New Orleans.

What does the suggest? Oswald had paid off a debt, and now had a little extra money. Does he start saving for a house, buy things for his wife and daughter? No, he buys guns. He doesn't buy them locally, in a state where you can still buy rifles in (some) hardware stores, not to mention pawn shops, sporting goods stores, SEARS, and dedicated gun shops.

Another puzzling thing is that the .38 cost more than his Carcano, which means he could have bought the M-1 Garand, a rifle he was already trained to use, and yet he orders the Carcano. Both the .38 and M-1 would have been available in most pawn shops, and gun shops in the Dallas-Fort Worth area for less money too.

In my opinion he buys the Carcano for three reasons; the first being the scope was included with the rifle, and the second reason was it was an Italian rifle making it exotic. Plus, if you recall, Italy was a hotbed of communist struggle at the time. The third reason was simple ballistics; the Carcano was a canon compared to the .762 M-1.

Next, Oswald loses his job. In the decades since the assassination the US has seen far too many office shootings, and mass murders take place after the killer loses his job. Oswald had nothing to lose, and four days later he takes a shot at Walker. Walker is the initial target, Walker is the reason Oswald buys guns. This part of Oswald's timeline points this being true.

Looking at Oswald's actions in the Walker case you will see them repeated in the JFK Assassination.

Oswald does reconnaissance on Walker's home and the target area.

Oswald pre-positions the Carcano in the woods near the Walker home.

Oswald leaves his wedding band and money on the dresser for Marina as he leaves the house to kill Walker.

Oswald takes his shot, stashes the Carcano, and heads to the nearest bus stop.

Leading up to killing JFK:

Oswald stalks the parade route. Attempts to get jobs at a parking garage and an hotel which overlook the parade route.

Oswald leaves his wedding band on his dresser on the morning he kills JFK.

Oswald takes a bus to flee the TSBD.

We have an M.O., and there is reason to speculate that Oswald may have snuck the Carcano into the TSBD at an earlier date(not much earlier), and this would close the speculation about the size of the bag in Frazier's car. Remember, Oswald doesn't walk out the front door of the TSBD, he left via the loading dock. By 11/22/63 he was familiar with the building, and the in's and out's of the place.

As for the clothes in the photographs that are missing?

It's a safe bet he was wearing them when he shot at Walker, and like the jacket he ditched after shooting Tippit, they ended up in a dumpster somewhere.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:43 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I have asked the admin/mod multiple times how it can be that you are allowed to stalk and harass me with nonsense replies and little blue idiot smileys, day in and night out page after page since I began posting in the thread, but no answer.

One wonder why this is so.

Do you know, RoboTimbo?
You could probably call his bluff and answer his questions
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:50 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You could probably call his bluff and answer his questions
I did in the beginning, but he just changed the subject and asked new nonsense questions.

I little bit like you do.

Are you pals?
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:55 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
<snip whining>
Answer the questions you have been asked. Unless you know how the answers destroy your claims. Then I guess I don't blame you for constantly running away.

Last edited by RoboTimbo; 10th June 2018 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 12:59 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I did in the beginning, but he just changed the subject and asked new nonsense questions.

I little bit like you do.

Are you pals?
Why did Oswald go on to must Officer Tippit and then go on to attempt to murder more officers in the theater with the same revolver?
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:12 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Yes, but why is it ”prefered”?
The purpose of this recommendation is twofold

#1. To indicate to the Federal Reserve (hereinafter called "the Fed) that the PMO has been received by the correct payee, and that the correct payee and been paid, and

#2. To allow the Fed to trace a possible fraudulent document back through the banking system to its source.

In order to accomplish #1 above, all that is required is some kind of stamp to indicate that the payee has received his money.
a. If the payee presents himself personally to be paid out in cash, then they must show identification to prove they are the boda-fide payee, and if the person at the counter is satisfied with the ID, then they will endorse the PMO with the paying authority's stamp. If the paying authority is a bank, then that stamp will be the official stamp of the bank. If the paying authority is a branch of the USPS, that stamp will be the official stamp of that branch of the USPS. If the paying authority is convenience store, a grocery store, a general store or some other authorised check-cashing location, it will be stamp of that paying authority

b. If the payee is a company or a retail organisation, and they bank the PMO into their business account, then it will be endorsed with the stamp of that organisation, and then processed along with all the cash, cheques, other money orders and credit union transaction documents in that banking bundle. No further endorsement by the bank ares required, because the business' own endorsement stamp is all that is needed. The Federal regulation say it best... "The act of sending or delivering a cash item to us or to another Federal Reserve Bank will, however, be deemed and understood to constitute a guaranty(sic) of all prior endorsements on such item, whether or not an express guaranty is incorporated in the sending bank’s endorsement."
Simply put, this means two things

i. The very fact that The First National Bank sent the Fed the PMO is deemed to "constitute a guarantee", and

ii. The Klein's endorsement stamp was acceptable as a "prior endorsement" by the fact that it was present when the item was sent.
In order to accomplish #2 above, all that is required is some kind of stamp to on the document to allow the Fed to trace it back to its origin.

In the case of a cashed PMO, the stamp allows it to be traced back to the bank, USPS branch, convenience store, general store, check cashing location or other paying authority who paid out the payee, and

In the case of a banked PMO, the stamp allows it to be traced back to the company that banked it into their account, and the bank that accepted it.

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
The ordinary meaning in English is ”obligation”.
If you only cherry pick one definition, the one that most fits your fantasy world, then yes.

I can do that too!

Oxford English Dictionary: Modal Verb - Indicating a desirable or expected state.

Collins English Dictionary: Modal verb - Used in conditional clauses when you are talking about things that might happen.

MacMillan Dicitinary: Modal verb - Used for saying what someone decides, suggests, or orders


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
So, why the ”recommendation” of having the stamps prominently on both sides of the PMO if completely superfluous?

Aesthetics?
Its not "completely superfluous". This has been explained to you many times, you simply choose to pretend it hasn't been

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is how John Armstrong describes the reasons that the stamps ”should” be on PMO’s, 1963.

<snipped>

Kleins deposited thousands of PMO’s to its bank on a daily basis, but you are claiming the bank deposited all those PMO’s to a Federal Reserve Bank without endorsing them?
Not at all, you have been told this over and over. Klein's endorsed them with their own stamp.... this one



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
And what about the Federal Reserve Bank’s and their endorsements?
What endorsements do they require on the PMO

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
There is NO trace on the Hidell PMO of it having been duly processed in any way by any bank. How do you distinguish processed endorsed PMO’s from PMO’s that aren’t so, without a trace on neither of them of having been duly processed?
In fact there are three clear indications that the PMO has been processed through the banking system

1. This stamp means Kliens took or sent it to their bank, who payed it into their bank account



2. The Hollerith punch holes means that the PMO must have been processed through the banking system.



3. This stamp means that the PMO must have reached the Federal Reserve



You keep asking the same questions
We keep giving you the correct answers.
You keep wilfully refusing to understand those answers

...all so that you can keep playing your stupid little word games, and all because you are desperate; desperate to keep your fantasy world intact!
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:46 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is the relevant timeline per the rifle, and there is a logical through-line:

25, January, 1963 - Oswald makes the final two payments on the State Department loan that got him back from Russia.
Agree.

Quote:
27, January - Oswald orders a Smith & Wesson .38 from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, using the name A. J. Hidell, and his post office box as address, for $29.95.
Your evidence for this?

Quote:
9 or 10, March - Oswald takes a picture of the home of General Walker's home.
Your evidence of this?

Quote:
12, March - Oswald orders the Carcano from Klein's.
Your evidence for this?

Quote:
20, March - Oswald picks up the .38 from the offices of the Railway Express Agency in Dallas. The weapon was paid for C.O.D.
Your evidence for this?

Quote:
25, March - Oswald picks up the rifle from the post office. (The rifle arrived at the post office on 20, March)
Your evidence for this?

Quote:
31, March - Oswald has Marina take the backyard photos of him with his arsenal.
Your evidence for this?

Quote:
1, April - Oswald is fired from his job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall with his final day being 6, April.
Agree.

Quote:
At some point Oswald stashes the Carcano near the Walker residence.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
10, April - Oswald attempts to kill General Walker.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
14, April - Oswald retrieves his Carcano from where he stashed it after the shooting.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
17, April - Oswald makes plans to move to New Orleans.
Maybe.

Quote:
24, April - Oswald takes the bus to New Orleans.
Agree.

Quote:
What does the suggest?
It suggest that you need to provide the evidence in support of your proclamations.


Quote:
Oswald had paid off a debt,
Agree.

Quote:
and now had a little extra money.
How ”little extra money” did he have? $ 21.45?

Quote:
Does he start saving for a house, buy things for his wife and daughter?
Don’t know. Do you?

Quote:
No, he buys guns.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
He doesn't buy them locally, in a state where you can still buy rifles in (some) hardware stores, not to mention pawn shops, sporting goods stores, SEARS, and dedicated gun shops.
Yes, why doesn’t he buy the weapons locally? Much better weapons for much less money and completely anonymous? Instead he orders an old Italian crap weapon from just after the first World War, by mail order in a false name (A. Hidell) to his postbox rented in his real name?

Alek Hidell = Lee Harvey Oswald = the ’secret’ alias exposed in the very act of purchasing the murder weapon? Whats the point with that?

Oswald had a very high IQ so that is not the answer, and he did not drink alcohol or use drugs and he was not mentally ill.

So why go through all this trouble forging a false ID, ordering a crap rifle with the same ID to an adress in his own own name exposing his ’secret’ identity?

Any plausible idea?

Quote:
Another puzzling thing is that the .38 cost more than his Carcano, which means he could have bought the M-1 Garand, a rifle he was already trained to use, and yet he orders the Carcano. Both the .38 and M-1 would have been available in most pawn shops, and gun shops in the Dallas-Fort Worth area for less money too.
Exactly my point but you forget, he even did not get the weapons he was supposed to have ordered!!

- Wrong model of pistol.

- Wrong model of rifle.

Both wrong?

Quote:
In my opinion he buys the Carcano for three reasons; the first being the scope was included with the rifle,
Except for the fact that this model had no scope included at the time of the alleged purchase. But, go on.

Quote:
and the second reason was it was an Italian rifle making it exotic. Plus, if you recall, Italy was a hotbed of communist struggle at the time.
So, why not buy a Kalashnikow. More exotic (lol), more communist (lol).

Quote:
The third reason was simple ballistics; the Carcano was a canon compared to the .762 M-1.
Wow. A canon. I’m impressed. Makes one wonder why the US Army and the Marines didn’t by the hundreds of thousands of surplus Carcanos in stock both in Italy and the US. Ca 5 dollars a piece.

Doesn’t it?

Quote:
Next, Oswald loses his job. In the decades since the assassination the US has seen far too many office shootings, and mass murders take place after the killer loses his job. Oswald had nothing to lose, and four days later he takes a shot at Walker.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
Walker is the initial target, Walker is the reason Oswald buys guns. This part of Oswald's timeline points this being true.
A made up time line points to the made up timeline being true?

Really?

Quote:
Looking at Oswald's actions in the Walker case you will see them repeated in the JFK Assassination.
Are you saying that there are even less evidence of Oswald killing JFK? Is that possible?

Quote:
Oswald does reconnaissance on Walker's home and the target area.
Evidence for this?

Quote:
Oswald pre-positions the Carcano in the woods near the Walker home.
Wow. Pre-positions. That is a very precise and careful word. Sly. But, evidence for this?

Quote:
Oswald leaves his wedding band and money on the dresser for Marina as he leaves the house to kill Walker.
Same as he did when allegedly killing JFK? Smart. But, evidence for this?

Quote:
Oswald takes his shot, stashes the Carcano, and heads to the nearest bus stop.
Lol. Nearest bus stop. Smart. Sly. But, evidence for this?

Quote:
Leading up to killing JFK:
Ah, clever. But, evidence for this?

Quote:
Oswald stalks the parade route. Attempts to get jobs at a parking garage and an hotel which overlook the parade route.
Clever. Evidence for this?

Quote:
Oswald leaves his wedding band on his dresser on the morning he kills JFK.
And his wallet with all his money? You forget that he had three almost identical wallets. He left one of them to Marina, he dropped one of them on the scene of the Tippit shooting and he had one of them in his pocket when arrested by the brave cops in DPD in the Texas Theather.

Why all this wallets when being dirt poor?

Any plausible idea?

Quote:
Oswald takes a bus to flee the TSBD.
Lol. The bus escape again. What would Oswald have done without all those busses to flee in?

Bicycle?

Quote:
We have an M.O.,
Yes, Oswald was sly. No doubt about it.

Quote:
and there is reason to speculate that Oswald may have snuck the Carcano into the TSBD at an earlier date(not much earlier),
And the ”reason” would be?

Quote:
and this would close the speculation about the size of the bag in Frazier's car.
Ah, thats the ”reason”? He would spare the public any speculation on how he was able to transport an old big Italian infantry rifle in a small, grocery bag?

How thoughtful of him.

Quote:
Remember, Oswald doesn't walk out the front door of the TSBD, he left via the loading dock. By 11/22/63 he was familiar with the building, and the in's and out's of the place.
Ah. If true, that was really clever. I get it. Sly. He used the back door.

Quote:
As for the clothes in the photographs that are missing?

It's a safe bet he was wearing them when he shot at Walker, and like the jacket he ditched after shooting Tippit, they ended up in a dumpster somewhere.
Ah, that settles it. He had loads of money so he bought new clothes as the plot developed.

Cunning. Sly.

Last edited by manifesto; 10th June 2018 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:47 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is a peculiar way of debating practiced by Hank when he knows he has no chanse to win an argument.
Your own words are peculiar? Or just the fact that they work to call you and and your methods out?


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Who taught him this?
Decided on my own that was one way to establish you are only making claims you never support. You don't like it? Support your claims and stop offering excuses for your failure to do so.


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Don’t know, but I suspect it has something to do with his decades of close association whit a certain Mr. McA.....
Hilarious. I have exchanged more words with you in a day than I have in my life with John McAdams. What's your argument here? That ad hominem is the best approach when you have no response?


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is how you end up.
This is where you end up. Ignoring the points made and quibbling once more about how they are made and practicing guilt by association.

We all understand what that means.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:51 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped.
Talking from experience.
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Old 10th June 2018, 01:52 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Agree..
Where did you find evidence that he made the final two payments on that loan?
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:45 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
So, why the ”recommendation” of having the stamps prominently on both sides of the PMO if completely superfluous?

Aesthetics?
Asked and answered. This has nothing to do with the assassination anymore and deals with a different question entirely. Take it to the 'history of rules and regulations' forum.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
So, why the ”recommendation” of having the stamps prominently on both sides of the PMO if completely superfluous?

Aesthetics?
Asking it a second time back-to-back makes no difference. You didn't really expect the answer to change, did you?

Asked and answered. This has nothing to do with the assassination anymore and deals with a different question entirely. Take it to the 'history of rules and regulations' forum.

You are now quibbling over the reasons these rules and regulations were adopted in 1960, the year BEFORE JFK was sworn in as President, and at a time when Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia. These rules and regulation adopted in 1960 have ZERO (0), zilch, zip to do with the assassination.

You are clearly DESPERATE in pursuing this line of questioning.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is how John Armstrong describes the reasons that the stamps ”should” be on PMO’s, 1963.
Is John Armstrong some kind of expert on Postal Rules and regulations? If he is, please cite his background and experience in these manners, and then establish why we should care, since the rules and regulations have no bearing on the assassination. If he's not some kind of expert, please tell us why you're citing his opinion. And of course, as an expert, he shouldn't make any obvious errors even a layman could spot, right?



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
(Quoting CT Armstrong):
"Without the [bank] endorsement, the Federal Reserve would have no way of knowing to which bank the money order was to be credited."

http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/PMO/Money_Orders.html
Gee, really?

Yet we can look at the back of the postal money order in question and see exactly which bank the money should be credited to:
PAY TO THE ORDER OF
THE FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF CHICAGO
59-91144
KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.

You're quoting a man who's saying the Federal Reserve couldn't figure that out?

He's a CT, so of course he's not telling the truth.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
That is, if the actors involved expected to have a secured processing of the PMO, this is what the federal regulation says they ”should” do.
Absolutely. With "should" meaning 'optional, recommended, not mandatory'.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Kleins deposited thousands of PMO’s to its bank on a daily basis, but you are claiming the bank deposited all those PMO’s to a Federal Reserve Bank without endorsing them?=
No, they endorsed with their stamp this one you're questioning and presumably all the others. But all the others don't matter, and please don't be silly enough to ask me to show the endorsement on all the others. The others have no bearing on the assassination. But this one bears the Klein's stamped endorsement:
PAY TO THE ORDER OF
THE FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF CHICAGO
59-91144
KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
And what about the Federal Reserve Bank’s and their endorsements?
What endorsements are mandatory? Please establish. And remember this:
Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I’m not a mind reader AND again, it’s not my place to figure out on what ’evidence’ you are making a claim. Only you can know that. Only you can do that. That is your place.


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
There is NO trace on the Hidell PMO of it having been duly processed in any way by any bank. How do you distinguish processed endorsed PMO’s from PMO’s that aren’t so, without a trace on neither of them of having been duly processed? Guessing?
Armstrong already told you:
"At the Federal Reserve Bank a second set of punched holes was stamped into each Postal Money order. In one operation the new machines (IBM 808 proof machines) would list the amount of the money order on paper tapes, punch (by machine code) the ink-printed/stamped amount paid for the money order as shown on the front side, and automatically sort the money orders according to the twelve Post Office regional accounting offices."


The ones that made it all the way through would have the key-punched holes and the printed number. This one does:

138 4159 796

Are you now disputing the man you quoted here? He's YOUR supposed expert.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:52 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
If you are talking of your carefully orchestrated barrage of crap thrown at me from day one, yes you should follow my example.

Responde to those posts that have some semblance of effort to provide substance first, and take it from there.
So no one would bother to respond to you then and you would have the forum to yourself?

Hilarious!

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I have asked the admin/mod multiple times how it can be that you are allowed to stalk and harass me with nonsense replies and little blue idiot smileys, day in and night out page after page since I began posting in the thread, but no answer.

One wonder why this is so.

Do you know, RoboTimbo?
So you have your answer, don't you?

Obviously they don't think asking you questions and inserting smilies along the way is stalking and harassing you , do they?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

Last edited by HSienzant; 10th June 2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:59 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Next, Oswald loses his job. In the decades since the assassination the US has seen far too many office shootings, and mass murders take place after the killer loses his job. Oswald had nothing to lose, and four days later he takes a shot at Walker. Walker is the initial target, Walker is the reason Oswald buys guns. This part of Oswald's timeline points this being true.
It's even acquired a name.

Ironically, considering the topic of the thread at the current moment, it's called 'going postal'.

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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:54 PM   #135
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About the stamps. If this ticket was forged almost to perfection then it would have had the stamps. How dumb would a forger be to leave them off. The card without the stamps happened because it was a stupid rule so they did not enforce it. Remember the stamps were only a suggestion.
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:55 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
How ”little extra money” did he have? $ 21.45?
$8.59 [estimated] after the purchase of the weapons.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jf...pendix-14.html

Cash on hand, Dec. 31, 1962 $174.80
Cash on hand, Jan. 31, 1963 $8.59

He purchased the weapons in January, so the $8.59 is the amount the Oswald's had left after the purchase of the weapons. The above are estimates because nobody knows exactly what Oswald bought.

As the Treasury department put it:
The following analysis of Lee Harvey Oswald's receipts and expenditures for the period June 13, 1962, through November 22, 1963, contains a complete record of all funds that he and his wife are reported to have received and disbursed from all known sources. It also contains an estimate for food, clothing, and incidental expenses, which include telephone calls, money order and check cashing fees, postage, local transportation costs, personal care goods and services, local newspapers, and similar small items. Oswald's expenditures for food, clothing, and incidentals were estimated at $100 per month, except for those months in which his wife and children resided with relatives or acquaintances. The estimate reflects Oswald's frugal living habits during this period, as described in chapter VI of this report. The Commission has been advised by the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor that this estimate is a little higher than would be normal for a family in Oswald's income class residing in the southern region of the United States. (See Commission Exhibit No. 1169.)


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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 10th June 2018, 04:04 PM   #137
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by fibbermcgee View Post
About the stamps. If this ticket was forged almost to perfection then it would have had the stamps. How dumb would a forger be to leave them off. The card without the stamps happened because it was a stupid rule so they did not enforce it. Remember the stamps were only a suggestion.
Welcome. Trust me, he knows all this. But his ABO religion doesn't care about facts. It's a faith-based system and nothing can overturn his belief system: ABO : Anybody But Oswald.

So if the evidence points to Oswald, of course that's why it MUST be faked. Somehow. Someway.

And that's why, ultimately, CTs wind up claiming all the evidence is faked and why they can't make heads or tails of it.

And why CTs like Manifesto cling to these claims and repeat them like prayers on a rosary. It's all a faith-based system. ABO.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 10th June 2018, 04:42 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by fibbermcgee View Post
About the stamps. If this ticket was forged almost to perfection then it would have had the stamps. How dumb would a forger be to leave them off. The card without the stamps happened because it was a stupid rule so they did not enforce it. Remember the stamps were only a suggestion.
They forged it so it could pass as an illusion of evidence. The cover-up and frame-up was extremely sloppy and ad hoc, but they didn’t need to fear exposure because the only ones that could expose them were themselves.

They were in power.
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Old 10th June 2018, 04:52 PM   #139
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Here's some more made-up CT fantasy crap:
Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
They forged it so it could pass as an illusion of evidence. The cover-up and frame-up was extremely sloppy and ad hoc, but they didn’t need to fear exposure because the only ones that could expose them were themselves.

They were in power.
It would be quicker to list stuff you haven't made up. That's a short list. And still dishonestly not answering questions. Typical CT.
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Old 10th June 2018, 04:53 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Yes, why doesn’t he buy the weapons locally? Much better weapons for much less money and completely anonymous?
This way nobody can put a face to the buyer of the weapon. If he buys the guns locally someone could ID him. In fact, the owner of the gunshop who sold him Carcano ammo did just that.


Quote:
Instead he orders an old Italian crap weapon from just after the first World War,
It is actually a prized collectible theses days. It was manufactured in 1942.

Quote:
Oswald had a very high IQ so that is not the answer, and he did not drink alcohol or use drugs and he was not mentally ill.
Lots of people with high IQ's do dumb things.

Quote:
So why go through all this trouble forging a false ID, ordering a crap rifle with the same ID to an adress in his own own name exposing his ’secret’ identity?
Exposing it to whom?

Quote:
Exactly my point but you forget, he even did not get the weapons he was supposed to have ordered!!

- Wrong model of pistol.
He didn't return it.

Quote:
- Wrong model of rifle.
Yeah, the better version with the longer barrel.

Quote:
Except for the fact that this model had no scope included at the time of the alleged purchase. But, go on.
It was advertised with the scope included, it's even in the add. Research much?

Quote:
So, why not buy a Kalashnikow. More exotic (lol), more communist (lol).
Because AK-47's weren't available in the US for sale until 1974. Research much?

Quote:
Wow. A canon. I’m impressed. Makes one wonder why the US Army and the Marines didn’t by the hundreds of thousands of surplus Carcanos in stock both in Italy and the US. Ca 5 dollars a piece.
Couple of reasons. In the 1960's the US military bought exclusively from US firearms manufacturers. Today, while many of our weapons are still manufactured in the US, they are made by FN, Sig, H&K, and even Bofors.

Second, most senior officers in the US military, were WWII veterans, as were many Congressmen, and US Senators, and the idea of arming US soldiers with a 6.5 caliber weapon, the same caliber used by the Axis powers Italy and Japan was not going to fly.

The good news is that USSOCOM has adopted 6.5 for our snipers:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/03/uss...#axzz5I4FDmcD5

You'll be happy to know that US forces will not be even more deadly in the near future.

Quote:
A made up time line points to the made up timeline being true?
Confirmed timeline.

Quote:
Wow. Pre-positions. That is a very precise and careful word. Sly. But, evidence for this?
Marina Oswald related what Lee told her.

Quote:
Lol. Nearest bus stop. Smart. Sly. But, evidence for this?
Marina.

Quote:
And his wallet with all his money? You forget that he had three almost identical wallets. He left one of them to Marina, he dropped one of them on the scene of the Tippit shooting and he had one of them in his pocket when arrested by the brave cops in DPD in the Texas Theather.
Nope. He left her cash.

He lost his wallet when he shot Tippit. The DPD actually did lie about taking it from him at the Texas Theater because by the time he'd been captured too many officers had handled the wallet, thus contaminating it.

Your wallet nonsense has failed

Quote:
Lol. The bus escape again. What would Oswald have done without all those busses to flee in?

Bicycle?
Why wouldn't he take the bus? He didn't know how to drive.

Yes, Oswald was sly. No doubt about it.


Quote:
Ah, thats the ”reason”? He would spare the public any speculation on how he was able to transport an old big Italian infantry rifle in a small, grocery bag?

How thoughtful of him.
Nobody has claimed he brought the rifle in a grocery bag. Research much
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:01 PM   #141
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
They forged it so it could pass as an illusion of evidence. The cover-up and frame-up was extremely sloppy and ad hoc, but they didn’t need to fear exposure because the only ones that could expose them were themselves.

They were in power.
Your extensive knowledge of CIA operations is staggering

So enlighten us as to why the CIA, who was working with the Chicago Mafia, couldn't just use their connections in Chicago - where Klein's was located - to just get someone at the bank to stamp the fake money order?
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:36 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Talking from experience.
Your experience, as you bump every time you post with all of those if's. They make a good story in CT circles but would rather have evidence. Something you have failed to produce for any of your claims.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:41 PM   #143
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Your extensive knowledge of CIA operations is staggering

So enlighten us as to why the CIA, who was working with the Chicago Mafia, couldn't just use their connections in Chicago - where Klein's was located - to just get someone at the bank to stamp the fake money order?
They had an unlimited budget... unlimited! They could simply have MADE all the bank stamps they needed on order to forget the paper trail.

The whole thing that undermines most of the stupid conspiracy theories we see debated here (and elsewhere) is the sheer complexity needed in order to turn the truth into the conspiracy.

The truth is simple, and rarely does it ever have to account for any serious degree of conflicting evidence.

If "they" (whoever "they" are) wanted to kill Kennedy, there was no need to go to all the trouble of such an elaborate and intricately complex scheme of setting up a patsy and then paying a hitman to get rid of him

forging the money order
forging the order form
forging the envelope
paying off Kleins
multiple shooters
disappearing the bullets they fired
faking and forged autopsies
faking photographs
planting the gun
faking the ballistics
faking fingerprints and palm prints
paying off witnesses

etc etc

If they really want to kill him in Dallas, at that time and place, then all they had to do was put a CIA sniper on the roof of the DalTex building, then disappear him down the elevator, leaving the DPD and the FBI with an unsolved mystery.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:42 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Have YOU, Hans, produced one single post containing a single trace of substance in your attacks on me?
Lol

It points out you don't back up your claims with evidence - whose fault is that?

Well yours dude.

It also points out that you are lying.

Both of these points shows you are not debating in a honest manner.

.....and they will continue
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:45 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
how it can be that you are allowed to stalk and harass me
You know that does sound like you and your actions: constantly demanding evidence which you refuse to provide for your own claims.

Yeah stop harassing us with your lies and demands dude....lol

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Old 10th June 2018, 06:48 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Your extensive knowledge of CIA operations is staggering

So enlighten us as to why the CIA, who was working with the Chicago Mafia, couldn't just use their connections in Chicago - where Klein's was located - to just get someone at the bank to stamp the fake money order?
This particular fabrication was executed by the FBI and their informer in Dallas, Postal Inspector (Dallas T-2) Harry Holmes.

Different people did different things as the cover-up developed over time.

Compartmentalization. Need to know. Secret oaths. Obeying orders. Plausible deniability. Misguided patriotism.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:51 PM   #147
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Here's more made-up crap that can be dismissed.
Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This particular fabrication was executed by the FBI and their informer in Dallas, Postal Inspector (Dallas T-2) Harry Holmes.

Different people did different things as the cover-up developed over time.

Compartmentalization. Need to know. Secret oaths. Obeying orders. Plausible deniability. Misguided patriotism.
Someday you might say something of substance. That day isn't this day.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:56 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Lol

It points out you don't back up your claims with evidence
Name one claim in need of evidence where I haven’t provided such. I’m sure there are such, but one.

Quote:
whose fault is that?

Well yours dude.
RoboTimbo began his stalking and harassing from day one. I guess he/she is clairvoyant.

Quote:
It also points out that you are lying.
That is a serious accusation, ”Hans”. I’ll take it you can back that up with a good example of such a lie.

Do it.

Quote:
Both of these points shows you are not debating in a honest manner.

.....and they will continue
This is the most dishonest place I have ever been to. It can’t get any worse than this. Heart of darkness.

1. Name one claim where I have not provided evidence and I provide it emeditaly.

2. Name one lie from me.

I’ll wait here meantime.

Hurry up, ”Hans”.

Last edited by manifesto; 10th June 2018 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
If you are talking of your carefully orchestrated barrage of crap thrown at me from day one, yes you should follow my example.

Responde to those posts that have some semblance of effort to provide substance first, and take it from there.

Have YOU, Hans, produced one single post containing a single trace of substance in your attacks on me?

One?

Show me.
Quit trying to set yourself up as a martyred victim. You post under your own free will. If you want less harassment, then start posting evidence for you speculations, or just admit you were wrong. It really is that simple.

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Old 10th June 2018, 07:03 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Name one claim in need of evidence where I haven’t provided such. I’m sure there are such, but one.
There's this one:

Quote:
RoboTimbo began his stalking and harassing from day one. I guess he/she is clairvoyant.
Along with the Hank 100. Why do CTs think people don't keep track?
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:14 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If they really want to kill him in Dallas, at that time and place, then all they had to do was put a CIA sniper on the roof of the DalTex building, then disappear him down the elevator, leaving the DPD and the FBI with an unsolved mystery.
Honestly, if the plan was to kill him and get away with it they would have poisoned him taking advantage of the medications he was already using for Addison's Disease, or back pain medications.

The CIA recommended against using guns for assassination.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:21 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This particular fabrication was executed by the FBI and their informer in Dallas, Postal Inspector (Dallas T-2) Harry Holmes.
Evidence? Did he confess to this? Cite the confirming documents.

Quote:
Different people did different things as the cover-up developed over time.
But you said the fix was in the second the final shot was fired. Now you claim it developed over time?
Make up your mind.

Quote:
Compartmentalization. Need to know. Secret oaths. Obeying orders. Plausible deniability. Misguided patriotism.
Which is why nothing you have claimed happened is realistic in any way.

The better conspiracy theories all start with Oswald as the shooter, this way you don't have to fake evidence, and the things that might need covering up are tangential to begin with, and that makes them harder to trace.

But please do continue with your circus act.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:23 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Name one claim in need of evidence where I haven’t provided such. I’m sure there are such, but one.
Yawn

...see H's list.............
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:31 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is a peculiar way of debating practiced by Hank
I'm amazed that you still do not understand what Hank is doing when he does this... no, actually, on second thoughts I'm not amazed.

What Hank is doing is showing up the duplicitous posting you indulge in;

► You post claims without evidence, and then refuse to provide evidence to support said claims.

► Any time anyone else makes a claim, you demand evidence, and when they do, you dismiss it, or handwave it away, or move the goalposts and demand evidence for your adjusted claim.

Now this might cop me some grief with the mods but IMO, you are simply incapable of debating honestly. This might look like I am attacking the arguer instead of the argument, but I've had it with debating your spurious arguments when you simply refuse to debate honestly. I, we, all of us, have been more than patient in dealing with you and trying to debate with you, but you simply cheat the debate by spamming the thread with truckloads of bare assertions, unevidenced claims, logical fallacies and outright lies.

Enough! From here on in, your claims will not be addressed or answered by me. Either

1. You will simply be asked to provide evidence in support, and I will not address your claims further until you do provide supporting evidence, or

2. I will copypasta my last answer to that question

If I ran the zoo, I would do what the admin does at Apollohoax... put you on moderation and not publish any more of your posts to the thread unless they contain answers to outstanding questions you have been asked and that you keep running away from.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:36 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They had an unlimited budget... unlimited! They could simply have MADE all the bank stamps they needed on order to forget the paper trail.

The whole thing that undermines most of the stupid conspiracy theories we see debated here (and elsewhere) is the sheer complexity needed in order to turn the truth into the conspiracy.

The truth is simple, and rarely does it ever have to account for any serious degree of conflicting evidence.

If "they" (whoever "they" are) wanted to kill Kennedy, there was no need to go to all the trouble of such an elaborate and intricately complex scheme of setting up a patsy and then paying a hitman to get rid of him
On the contrary, it was very simple.

1. Elements within the CIA planned and organized the assassination. The old boys network with crazy Allen Dulles at the helm.

2. Crazy Edgar and bat **** crazy Lyndon organized the cover-up.

Quote:
forging the money order
Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI

Quote:
forging the order form
Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI

Quote:
forging the envelope
Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI

Quote:
paying off Kleins
No need to pay Kleins

Quote:
multiple shooters
Yes.

Quote:
disappearing the bullets they fired
Yes, they controlled the technical evidence.

Quote:
faking and forged autopsies
Not so much faking as not telling the whole truth in the report.

Quote:
faking photographs
No, switching photographs from the actual autopsy to some taken after the reconstruction of the back of the head.

Quote:
planting the gun
Planting or switching afterwards, yes.

Quote:
faking the ballistics
Well, just show me the chains of custody.

Quote:
faking fingerprints and palm prints
Or manipulating Oswald to hold the rifle some time before the day of the assassination.

Quote:
paying off witnesses
Not needed.

Quote:
etc etc
??

Quote:
If they really want to kill him in Dallas, at that time and place, then all they had to do was put a CIA sniper on the roof of the DalTex building, then disappear him down the elevator, leaving the DPD and the FBI with an unsolved mystery.
Well, they didn’t. They used the same people involved in the plans and efforts to assassinate Castro & co.

Bill Harvey. David Atlee Philips. E. Howard Hunt. David Morales. ”Colonel” John Roselli. To name some of the more famous participants.

And the Cuban exiles.

They assassinated JFK as revenge for Bay of Pigs and as a pretext for US to invade Cuba and restore them to power.

This did not happen, but I can see a couple of plausible reasons for this. That the commie patsy didn’t die shortly after the assassination could be one such reason.

Another is that the people at the very top lied to the people on the ground, and that there wouldn’t be a retaliation attack on Cuba no matter what. They just used the anger in those networks to do their bidding.

Johnson, Dulles and Hoover. These three crazy old men had almost total control and power the second JFK’s was declared dead and they knew this would be so before they desided to go ahead.

There were others in the background as well, of course, but these three was critical for the plot to succeed and remain covert.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:37 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This particular fabrication was executed by the FBI and their informer in Dallas, Postal Inspector (Dallas T-2) Harry Holmes.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Different people did different things as the cover-up developed over time.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Secret oaths.
Evidence?
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:37 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm amazed that you still do not understand what Hank is doing when he does this... no, actually, on second thoughts I'm not amazed.

What Hank is doing is showing up the duplicitous posting you indulge in;

► You post claims without evidence, and then refuse to provide evidence to support said claims.

► Any time anyone else makes a claim, you demand evidence, and when they do, you dismiss it, or handwave it away, or move the goalposts and demand evidence for your adjusted claim.

Now this might cop me some grief with the mods but IMO, you are simply incapable of debating honestly. This might look like I am attacking the arguer instead of the argument, but I've had it with debating your spurious arguments when you simply refuse to debate honestly. I, we, all of us, have been more than patient in dealing with you and trying to debate with you, but you simply cheat the debate by spamming the thread with truckloads of bare assertions, unevidenced claims, logical fallacies and outright lies.

Enough! From here on in, your claims will not be addressed or answered by me. Either

1. You will simply be asked to provide evidence in support, and I will not address your claims further until you do provide supporting evidence, or

2. I will copypasta my last answer to that question

If I ran the zoo, I would do what the admin does at Apollohoax... put you on moderation and not publish any more of your posts to the thread unless they contain answers to outstanding questions you have been asked and that you keep running away from.
Absolutely this is the only way to deal with such a disingenuous poster. Yeah they do that at Cosmo/Bad Astronomy Forum also - either answer questions and put up evidence or GOODBYE.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:39 PM   #158
Hans
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
...deleted....
Its kinda fun to watch you make stuff up.

Delusional and without a speck of evidence
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:40 PM   #159
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- double -

Last edited by manifesto; 10th June 2018 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:41 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
1. Elements within the CIA planned and organized the assassination. The old boys network with crazy Allen Dulles at the helm.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
2. Crazy Edgar and bat **** crazy Lyndon organized the cover-up.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI

Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI

Dallas T-2 Harry Holmes + FBI
Evidence
Evidence
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
they controlled the technical evidence.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Not so much faking as not telling the whole truth in the report.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
No, switching photographs from the actual autopsy to some taken after the reconstruction of the back of the head.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Planting or switching afterwards, yes.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Or manipulating Oswald to hold the rifle some time before the day of the assassination.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Well, they didn’t. They used the same people involved in the plans and efforts to assassinate Castro & co.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Bill Harvey. David Atlee Philips. E. Howard Hunt. David Morales. ”Colonel” John Roselli. To name some of the more famous participants.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
And the Cuban exiles.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
They assassinated JFK as revenge for Bay of Pigs and as a pretext for US to invade Cuba and restore them to power.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Another is that the people at the very top lied to the people on the ground, and that there wouldn’t be a retaliation attack on Cuba no matter what. They just used the anger in those networks to do their bidding.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Johnson, Dulles and Hoover. These three crazy old men had almost total control and power the second JFK’s was declared dead and they knew this would be so before they desided to go ahead.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
There were others in the background as well, of course, but these three was critical for the plot to succeed and remain covert.
Evidence?
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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