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Old 6th July 2018, 06:55 AM   #361
Lothian
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
Yes, I think that is his point.

He will do whats best for his company. As a few others have hinted at already.
Indeed, and yet despite explaining their duty is to their shareholders that have been labelled traitors and accused of undermining the UK's bargaining position.
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Old 6th July 2018, 06:57 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those rats who are deserting the ship just because it seems to be heading into choppy waters aren't the people we want - we want proper patriots like Sir James Dyson who have the best interests of the UK at heart and wouldn't dream of moving their manufacturing base out of the UK for financial reasons.......
I am sure we can attract true patriots like Aaron Banks to move their companies back to the UK from their current offshore tax havens.
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Old 6th July 2018, 07:08 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am sure we can attract true patriots like Aaron Banks to move their companies back to the UK from their current offshore tax havens.
Well as President Trump has shown, the best way to increase the amount of tax collected is to significantly lower the rate at which it is imposed. There's no way that could lead to an increase in deficits.
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Old 6th July 2018, 11:30 AM   #364
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Donít forget the 25% tax on all imports from the rest of the world.

Thatís what the UK will do with all the free trade deals that stampede through the soon to be open gates. Itís easy apparently.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:00 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Donít forget the 25% tax on all imports from the rest of the world.

Thatís what the UK will do with all the free trade deals that stampede through the soon to be open gates. Itís easy apparently.
I have only recently realised that Little Waster on Badscience hadn't made up the bit about "innovative jams"

Spoilered for being from November 2017

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm going to post this exchange from Badscience

Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
Just as everything looked sorted, another German election is going to **** things right up.

Originally Posted by El Pollo Diablo
How did everything look sorted?

Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
The Brexit thing? Didn't it all get agreed at those negotiations?

Originally Posted by Little waster



Yep, ages ago.

As David Davis predicted it was the easiest trade deal in history, it was a glorous day.

Representatives from BMW and the major Prosecco producers were on hand to force the EU to rubber stamp whatever Britain wanted and the Eurocrats were so excited that Britain was going to munificently bestow a few billion of their worthless euros on them that they never even bothered to read the small print.

As expected Eire begged on bended knee to be allowed to rejoin the Union in order to share in our glorious new future thus instantly solving any potential border issue, this disappointed James Brokenshire as he had already come up with a genius but ever so simple solution had their been any unexpected hiccups, he'll go far and is a shoe-in for the post of Irish High Commisioner once direct rule of Dublin resumes from Westminister.

Meanwhile, before the EU had even finished squiggling their signatures, Liam Fox was literally mobbed by representatives from the US and China pleading for us to allow them to buy our exports, while a fistfight broke out between South Korea and Japan over who could get first dibs on our pigs ears, as Australia flicked through our catalogue of innovative jams, in what can only be described as childlike, open-mouthed wonder.

As our triumphant Brexiteers swept out of the hall, the EU27 broke into an impromptu round of "For he's a jolly good fellow" in enthusiastic if broken English and as a farewell surprise forced an envelope on a majestic Theresa May. With her usual quiet competence she quickly opened the envelope to find that a tearful European public had had a whipround as an act of gratitude for over a century of English all-round good eggness in standing up for freedom and democracy in the face of various kaisers, dictators and suchlike, something we are far too humble to ever mention ourselves. By happy coincidence the amount raised was the equivalent of £350m per week in perpetuity, enough to completely and permanently solve all the issues with the NHS. There wasn't a dry eye in the room by the end as the Europeans folded themselves into a group hug, comforting each other with the knowledge that although they may have lost the best of them but the relationship with the UK would remain deep, special and strong, and we'd continue to keep a benevolent eye on them.

In other news all the brown people in the UK have quietly packed their bags and returned home, leaving polite notes apologising for all the terrible inconvenience they've caused. As is historically the case, the sudden mass emigration of millions of people has caused the domestic UK economy to boom in a virtuous circle of full employment, low inflation and higher wages, for reasons I obviously don't need to explain.

How did you miss it? :?

Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
That's what I thought.

Obviously, with over half the time between referendum and 29 March 2019 exit date already elapsed (51% to be precise), the preparations are well advanced. As you described, the UK quickly agreed basic principles. But then also went on to design the new procedures for customs, tracking immigrants etc and set about building the infrastructure and systems.

Setting a deadline of 4 months before exit day to complete this infrastructure was very sensible. The government is showing a lot of competence in staying on track for this November 2018 target date, because it will allow for testing prior to the 30 March 2019 start date - just like the Olympic Stadium was complete and held its first event four months before the July 2012 opening ceremony. Exporters and importers will be able to prepare with plenty of time before Brexit Day. No doubt there'll be one or two teething problems when it goes live, but at least there won't be queues of lorries from Dover to the M25.

But for lols, just imagine an alternative universe. Suppose by this stage the government had only agreed the most basic questions, such as the Ireland border, rights of EU citizens and the divorce costs! And was still negotiating complicated questions like the new EU trade deal! Just imagine if they were only then, with a year and four months to go, starting to design the complex new infrastructure!

Would be hard to imagine a government that incompetent. And if they were so incompetent they'd only settled the initial questions of NI, EU citizens and costs by now, they'd probably be too incompetent to agree the EU trade deal - let alone prepare for Brexit Day.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:15 PM   #366
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The cabinet deal sounds.....messy, a fair bit of renaming existing conventions.

Remain in the customs Union for some goods but not others.
Keep free movement of people,
Become a tax haven for services.
No mention but I can't see how we make do without a hard border to prevent smuggling of goods not covered by the customs union.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:24 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The cabinet deal sounds.....messy, a fair bit of renaming existing conventions.

Remain in the customs Union for some goods but not others.
Keep free movement of people,
Become a tax haven for services.
No mention but I can't see how we make do without a hard border to prevent smuggling of goods not covered by the customs union.
It looks as though there is an inkling of reality starting to creep through. But not enough.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:34 PM   #368
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That the UK is held hostage to the whims and infighting of a bunch of utter wankers is the scary part.
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #369
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It isnít really though
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Old 6th July 2018, 01:45 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, yes, but I couldn't think of another suitable "Road to..." name on the spur of the moment.
Road to the edge of the cliff and then we 'Thelma and Louise' into a wonderful future. Or something.
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Old 6th July 2018, 02:39 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That the UK is held hostage to the whims and infighting of a bunch of utter wankers is the scary part.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...e-directive_en
I think the split in the government has more to do with that,

"Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019."

they are wankers though.

Last edited by p0lka; 6th July 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 6th July 2018, 03:25 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Farage Tweets

"Iíll have no choice but to return to frontline politics if Brexit is delayed beyond March 2019."


Yes, and I will be forced to return to Premiership Football.
Why not though? He's infinitely more well known than whoever is running the UKIP this week, and with May apparently getting the all-clear to seek a soft Brexit, there's bound to be some unhappy hard brexit Tory MP's looking for a place to go. If ever there was a time for UKIP to try to pounce on some of them, now would pretty much be it.
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Old 6th July 2018, 04:12 PM   #373
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Cabinet agrees 'collective' stance on future EU deal

The cabinet has reached a "collective" agreement on the basis of the UK's future relationship with the EU after Brexit, Theresa May has said.

Ministers have signed up to a plan to create a free trade area for industrial and agricultural goods with the bloc, based on a "common rule book".

They also supported what could amount to a "combined customs territory".

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the plan, agreed after a 12-hour meeting, would "anger many Tory Brexiteers".

Our political editor said the prime minister had "picked a side" by opting for a closer relationship with the EU than many colleagues desired - and she now had to sell it to her party and the other European leaders.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44747444
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Old 6th July 2018, 11:15 PM   #374
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I note that while smaller sectors like agriculture and manufacturing will be "protected" by staying close to the EU, the much larger services industry (where we currently have a large EU trade surplus) will not. Way to think that through

It's almost if she were pandering
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Old 6th July 2018, 11:27 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I note that while smaller sectors like agriculture and manufacturing will be "protected" by staying close to the EU, the much larger services industry (where we currently have a large EU trade surplus) will not. Way to think that through

It's almost if she were pandering
The ridiculous negotiating position agreed after 2 years of infighting simply exposes rthe paucity of sense on the Leaver side and in the two major UK parties.

What they propose is a fudge which serves no purpose and has already been rejected by the EU in most part. The leavers want the impossible because they have their own agendas and no interest in the best solution for the UK. The Tories simply want to stay in power by conceding whatever they need to to the cabal of privileged yobs getting rich off destroying peoples livelihoods.

Labour... as usual... havent a scooby doo what their position is.

An ultrahard no deal Brexit seems absolutely inevitable now. A few people are about to get very rich off the back off that while the rest of the country will be eating baked beans and sovereignty for fifty years.

Fingers crossed 6 percent of Scotlands unionists get the message finally and then the rUK can go to hell in their union jack handbasket.

it is definitely coming home people. but not how you think.
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Old 7th July 2018, 12:17 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
An ultrahard no deal Brexit seems absolutely inevitable now.
Hardly
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:40 AM   #377
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Thanks for the insight.

The EU will reject this nonsense from May and her dumplings. Then what?

You simply cannot have a cherry picking scenario nor can the UK parliament have a veto on accepting shared regulations.

What they have agreed between themselves is not worth the toilet paper its written on and that took two years to agree.
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:56 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Thanks for the insight.

The EU will reject this nonsense from May and her dumplings. Then what?

You simply cannot have a cherry picking scenario nor can the UK parliament have a veto on accepting shared regulations.

What they have agreed between themselves is not worth the toilet paper its written on and that took two years to agree.
She has already agreed with the EU on the status of the Irish border as a fallback position though


meanwhile from Facebook

Retweeted Spar4 (@Mckendrick36):

The cars of cabinet ministers have to queue to get checked on the way into Chequers? I would have thought theyíd have some magical technology making seamless friction free entry. #Chequers https://t.co/bzesFyLNTV
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:09 AM   #379
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Have they never heard of car sharing?
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:18 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have they never heard of car sharing?
FTFY (if the approach to Brexit is anything to go by)
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Old 7th July 2018, 03:49 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
She has already agreed with the EU on the status of the Irish border as a fallback position though


meanwhile from Facebook

Retweeted Spar4 (@Mckendrick36):

The cars of cabinet ministers have to queue to get checked on the way into Chequers? I would have thought theyíd have some magical technology making seamless friction free entry. #Chequers https://t.co/bzesFyLNTV
Agreed with the EU? She hasnt even spoken to the devolved parliaments about the powers of theirs that she is bartering away without their permission
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Old 7th July 2018, 04:05 AM   #382
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Already wailing and gnashing of teeth from keen Brexiters over her 'surrender' to Europe and the betrayal of Brexit.
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Old 7th July 2018, 04:21 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cabinet agrees 'collective' stance on future EU deal

The cabinet has reached a "collective" agreement on the basis of the UK's future relationship with the EU after Brexit, Theresa May has said.

Ministers have signed up to a plan to create a free trade area for industrial and agricultural goods with the bloc, based on a "common rule book".

They also supported what could amount to a "combined customs territory".

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the plan, agreed after a 12-hour meeting, would "anger many Tory Brexiteers".

Our political editor said the prime minister had "picked a side" by opting for a closer relationship with the EU than many colleagues desired - and she now had to sell it to her party and the other European leaders.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44747444
Very good. The UK is now about ready to call a referendum to chose whether to stay in the EU or to leave and negotiate for these terms.
I think it's a non-starter, though. The only way a majority of the public would vote for leave is if you combined all the reasonable and unreasonable options for leaving but even that wouldn't add up to 52%.
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Old 7th July 2018, 04:43 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Very good. The UK is now about ready to call a referendum to chose whether to stay in the EU or to leave and negotiate for these terms.
I think it's a non-starter, though. The only way a majority of the public would vote for leave is if you combined all the reasonable and unreasonable options for leaving but even that wouldn't add up to 52%.
Yeah not an option I think I can vote for so I suspect when the referendum happens I'll vote against adopting this.
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Old 7th July 2018, 04:43 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Agreed with the EU? She hasnt even spoken to the devolved parliaments about the powers of theirs that she is bartering away without their permission
In the preliminary negotiations:

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit...205997/?ref=sh


"Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland.

"In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."


Northern Ireland is going to remain aligned with the South - unless May wants to renege on her agreement. Not an impossible idea, admittedly.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:12 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

Northern Ireland is going to remain aligned with the South - unless May wants to renege on her agreement. Not an impossible idea, admittedly.
Up to a point...

The EU draft withdrawal agreement has full alignment with the EU and a border in the Irish Sea, which has not been accepted by the UK as that is not what December's text says.

I'm unclear what yesterday's Cabinet agreement means for Ireland, but it sounds as if it's an attempt to get an agreement which effectively overrides the backstop.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:13 AM   #387
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It's a "Brexit plan" of sorts, but no one would have voted for this plan if it had been spelled out in the referendum. Also, it still has to be negotiated.

Probably the EU won't accept it in its current form - it will need to be modified to make it an even worse deal than the one suggested before it becomes acceptable to the EU. Then the UK parliament can vote to accept the bad deal or reject it and leave with no deal whatsoever.

The keen leavers will be hoping for no deal rather than this soft unsatisfying fudge.

The keen remainers will be hoping to somehow remain fully in the EU rather than accept this half-in-half-out unsatisfactory compromise: it's not clear at this point whether or not that is still a viable option.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:44 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's a "Brexit plan" of sorts, but no one would have voted for this plan if it had been spelled out in the referendum. Also, it still has to be negotiated.

Probably the EU won't accept it in its current form - it will need to be modified to make it an even worse deal than the one suggested before it becomes acceptable to the EU. Then the UK parliament can vote to accept the bad deal or reject it and leave with no deal whatsoever.

The keen leavers will be hoping for no deal rather than this soft unsatisfying fudge.

The keen remainers will be hoping to somehow remain fully in the EU rather than accept this half-in-half-out unsatisfactory compromise: it's not clear at this point whether or not that is still a viable option.
This is the point I have trouble getting across to "leavers"

No one knew what they were voting for by voting leave in the referendum.

They had their own ideas of what they wanted but not what a leave vote actually meant.

Even you stated that you wanted the UK to remain in the EAW
scheme even though you are a keen leaver.

There should have been at least a thought through and agreed manifesto by the leave campaign before it was put to the people.

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Old 7th July 2018, 05:44 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's a "Brexit plan" of sorts, but no one would have voted for this plan if it had been spelled out in the referendum. Also, it still has to be negotiated.

Probably the EU won't accept it in its current form - it will need to be modified to make it an even worse deal than the one suggested before it becomes acceptable to the EU. Then the UK parliament can vote to accept the bad deal or reject it and leave with no deal whatsoever.

The keen leavers will be hoping for no deal rather than this soft unsatisfying fudge.

The keen remainers will be hoping to somehow remain fully in the EU rather than accept this half-in-half-out unsatisfactory compromise: it's not clear at this point whether or not that is still a viable option.
Or perhaps they should just learn this will be way it is after we leave the EU, and start getting used to doing "soft unsatisfying fudge" deals with country after country?
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:47 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's a "Brexit plan" of sorts, but no one would have voted for this plan if it had been spelled out in the referendum. Also, it still has to be negotiated.

<snip>

Do you think that the referendum to leave would have passed if any detailed plan had been laid out before the vote?

It only passed by a whisker or two. I suspect the Leave campaign was quite intentionally neglecting to offer any specifics, because if they had then at least some significant fraction of those inclined to a Brexit wouldn't have liked some part of it, no matter what it was.

Offering any specifics at all could very likely have doomed a Leave vote.

I'm sure the Leave organizers knew that going in.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:49 AM   #391
jimbob
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you think that the referendum to leave would have passed if any detailed plan had been laid out before the vote?

It only passed by a whisker or two. I suspect the Leave campaign was quite intentionally neglecting to offer any specifics, because if they had then at least some significant fraction of those inclined to a Brexit wouldn't have liked some part of it, no matter what it was.

Offering any specifics at all could very likely have doomed a Leave vote.

I'm sure the Leave organizers knew that going in.
Johnson said we could remain in the Customs Union. Which we could if the UK government agreed to it.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:51 AM   #392
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
In the preliminary negotiations:

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit...205997/?ref=sh


"Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland.

"In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."


Northern Ireland is going to remain aligned with the South - unless May wants to renege on her agreement. Not an impossible idea, admittedly.
Are you suggesting the proposal is the N Ireland remains aligned with the EU on everything and the UK aligned on only somethings (unless the UK Parliament decides not to, but that the UK parliament can't decide not to on the Northern Ireland issues) because that seems impossible practically.

As I said its a complete fudge and not realistic to expect the EU to sign up to it.
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Old 7th July 2018, 06:01 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's a "Brexit plan" of sorts, but no one would have voted for this plan if it had been spelled out in the referendum.
You mean £350 million a week for the NHS, as good as or better trading terms with the EU? Because that's the Brexit the Leave campaign promised. But I agree if the Leave campaign hadn't been a bunch of lying criminals getting a helping hand from Moscow people probably wouldn't have voted leave.
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Old 7th July 2018, 08:05 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Thanks for the insight.
That's OK. Thanks for your prediction which I think is precisely wrong.
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Old 7th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
That's OK. Thanks for your prediction which I think is precisely wrong.
Opinion piece that would support your view.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018...or-soft-brexit

Quote:
Even where it attempts to placate hard Brexiter concerns, the document is revealing. It says that where we've accepted the common rulebook, "parliament would still have a lock on incorporating rules into the UK legal order". This seems very similar to Article 102 of the EEA - the 'right of reservation' - which allows you to block an EU rule with an ensuing loss of market access.
Quote:
In order to keep Liam Fox onside, it restates that the UK will be able to do its own trade deals. Even here though, the Brexity promises ring hollow. It's technically true, as the customs partnership - were it ever to exist, which it will not - would let you vary your tariffs. But by fixing regulation to EU standards on agricultural goods, countries like the US will have lost their main incentive to strike a deal. That glorious US-UK trade deal has now effectively disappeared.

So that's our new base camp. It is a much better and more pleasant base camp than before, with some decent foundations for buildings to protect us from the chill wind, and a little bit of sunlight peeking out from behind the mountain. May has secured British government agreement on a single market on goods, a customs partnership, and a liberal European immigration regime.

On the Brexit flank, she faces few incentives to retreat backwards. The Brexiters are in disarray. They did not understand how damaging to their cause the December agreement was and they do not understand this one either.
I'd add that they also look utterly incompetent and undisciplined

Boris Johnson's "**** business" isn't going to help him with the traditional Conservative base.

David Davis is a clown who is out of his depth.

Liam Fox (who?) hasn't exactly had a noteworthy performance (unlike the previous two).

I suppose that on the backbenches, there is the potential for Rees-Mogg to ride in on his unicorn and save a hard Brexit for us all. But I don't think he'd have the confidence of the party.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:13 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I suppose that on the backbenches, there is the potential for Rees-Mogg to ride in on his unicorn and save a hard Brexit for us all. But I don't think he'd have the confidence of the party.
May's plan is a complete fudge ("we've left the single market but will continue to abide by all its rules"), which I don't think will be accepted by the EU.

However, it does technically preserve the manifesto red lines. Crossing those might be more difficult.
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Old 7th July 2018, 12:25 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
May's plan is a complete fudge ("we've left the single market but will continue to abide by all its rules"), which I don't think will be accepted by the EU.

However, it does technically preserve the manifesto red lines. Crossing those might be more difficult.
Oh, agreed, and it was well reported that it was unacceptable to the EU before the meeting even started. It is the glimmer of reality that the current headbangers in Cabinet have signed up to.

It's almost as though putting incompetents in charge of negotiation doesn't work. The UK has blinked every time. The EU has been consistent in first asking what the UK government wants - which in itself is a seemingly difficultintractable question.
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #398
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I think it's unfair to say that the UK government doesn't know what it wants. What it has always wanted is all the benefits of belonging to the EU but without any of the perceived drawbacks - so it would like an end to freedom of movement, no more payments to the EU, the ability to ignore EU law and EU courts, the right to make independent trade deals with countries outside the EU, but most everything else remaining the same as at present.

May knows that if she asked for those things the EU would say no, and she is too timid to even ask. What is worrying is that the EU will say no to even the most watered down list of requests, and like any good negotiator it will always come back with a smaller offer than what is requested.

You would think that a competent UK government would initially ask for more than they really expected to get, so that they would have room to compromise, give up some requests, and still get what they really wanted. But of course the current UK government is far from competent.
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:56 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I think it's unfair to say that the UK government doesn't know what it wants. What it has always wanted is all the benefits of belonging to the EU but without any of the perceived drawbacks - so it would like an end to freedom of movement, no more payments to the EU, the ability to ignore EU law and EU courts, the right to make independent trade deals with countries outside the EU, but most everything else remaining the same as at present.

...
You'd think they'd be bright enough to know that hell is unlikely to freeze over.
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:16 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I think it's unfair to say that the UK government doesn't know what it wants. What it has always wanted is all the benefits of belonging to the EU but without any of the perceived drawbacks.

Which is what the Leave campaign promised. It was and is a ludicrous position, an outright lie used to con the voters.
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