ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 29th June 2018, 03:43 AM   #121
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is the only way to safely and humanely stun the adult Crumps so you can tear the young - Crumpets - from their mothers.
As any fule kno, young crumpets are called pikelets.

Carbon Dioxide is used to provide an inert atmosphere inside packaging to retard spoilage.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 03:46 AM   #122
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,483
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Hmmph.. typical, not a word about the poor cyclists who may end up stranded miles from home....
Get a ****** pump you bunch of lazy ************.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 03:47 AM   #123
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I think heading for a hard brexit, she is stoking fear and adding extra border checks and slowing everything down.
I've been convinced since day 1 of Theresa May's premiership that that is where we are inevitably heading - a hard, likely no deal, Brexit with all the pain that involves. It's the only way to engage the Dunkirk SpiritTM and allows everything to be blamed on the intransigence of the EU.

Why else would they work so hard to prevent parliament having a meaningful say in the event of a no-deal Brexit unless that's what they expected would happen ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:00 AM   #124
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,392
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've been convinced since day 1 of Theresa May's premiership that that is where we are inevitably heading - a hard, likely no deal, Brexit with all the pain that involves. It's the only way to engage the Dunkirk SpiritTM and allows everything to be blamed on the intransigence of the EU.
I'd go a step further, in that I think it's her revenge on the electorate for putting the government in such a stupid position - "You want Brexit, do you? Well I'll give you Brexit, right up the ****." The only problem with that is that it seems to be exactly what a large proportion of the electorate actually wants.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:10 AM   #125
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,477
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Theresa May using "blackmail" to try and get a better Brexit deal



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44651610

If safety is so important, don't leave
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
ceptimus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:28 AM   #126
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,161
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
I don't seem to recall there being a pick and mix option in Brexit?
Out means out of everything and if you want to keep using it without being a member of the EU, you negotiate new deals that will probably be less profitable as you are now negotiating from a weaker position.
It's what Brexit is for right? None of this conforming to european policing methods or sharing.
Lukraak_Sisser is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:32 AM   #127
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
Ahh. Damn that Barnier, the evil and capricious emperor of Europe. Whatfor did he ever cruelly decide to kick out those good British subjects from his Union?
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:43 AM   #128
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'
Posts: 13,833
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
Which part of voting to leave the EU confused you?
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:52 AM   #129
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,640
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Which part of voting to leave the EU confused you?

All of it. Clearly.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 04:56 AM   #130
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'
Posts: 13,833
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant.
Noted, you want to remain subject to directives proposed and amended by unelected Commissioners, approved and foisted upon us by non UK MEPs and overseen by the ECJ.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:00 AM   #131
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,539
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
As usual you want to continue enjoying the benefits of something that's only open to members of the EU. It would almost seem like you didn't think this whole Brexit thing through properly.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:15 AM   #132
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,477
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Noted, you want to remain subject to directives proposed and amended by unelected Commissioners, approved and foisted upon us by non UK MEPs and overseen by the ECJ.
You know that's a totally wrong characterization of my views, but you post it anyway. Typical.
ceptimus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:17 AM   #133
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,539
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You know that's a totally wrong characterization of my views, but you post it anyway. Typical.
And yet... that would the result of being part of the EAW regime.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:19 AM   #134
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,477
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
As usual you want to continue enjoying the benefits of something that's only open to members of the EU. It would almost seem like you didn't think this whole Brexit thing through properly.
Don't you understand the concept of mutual benefit? We're offering the EU the option of benefitting from our expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror, but they're too petulant to accept.
ceptimus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:21 AM   #135
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,477
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
And yet... that would the result of being part of the EAW regime.
Let me guess why. Because that's what the EU says, and you accept all EU pronouncements as if they were some kind of natural law?
ceptimus is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:38 AM   #136
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,392
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We're offering the EU the option of benefitting from our expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror,
Yeah, that latter one's not necessarily a selling point at the moment. Can you imagine why the EU might worry about the UK having wide-ranging powers of arrest?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:38 AM   #137
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
Some brexiteers say that they voted to take back control or souvereignty. How does extraditing UK subjects on the mere request of a foreign police force fit with being a fully souvereign nation?
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:42 AM   #138
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Let me guess why. Because that's what the EU says, and you accept all EU pronouncements as if they were some kind of natural law?
It is one of the conditions of the EAW scheme which relies on absolute alignment of laws. So either the whole of the EU submits to UK authority (which isn't going to happen) or vice versa.

The alternative would be to have an extradition scheme modelled on the EAW but then that wouldn't be the EAW and would take a significant period of time to agree and set up.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:43 AM   #139
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,392
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Let me guess why. Because that's what the EU says, and you accept all EU pronouncements as if they were some kind of natural law?
The EAW is an EU procedure. The EU is quite within its rights to say it's only available to those who follow EU law in all related areas, and that countries who don't adhere to EU law shouldn't be allowed to use it. Since it's part of EU law, then it is in fact literally true that it is what the EU says it is; that's how laws are defined. If it were "some kind of natural law" then it would be independent of what the EU said.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:45 AM   #140
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,539
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Don't you understand the concept of mutual benefit? We're offering the EU the option of benefitting from our expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror, but they're too petulant to accept.
Perhaps what you consider a benefit to the EU is not considered much of a benefit by the EU, once the UK is out of the EU?
Or perhaps there is no way to make the EAW work (properly) with third countries?
Or it could be that they are petulant... but in my view this reason is way down the list of possibilities.


Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Let me guess why. Because that's what the EU says, and you accept all EU pronouncements as if they were some kind of natural law?
You'd guess wrong.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 05:47 AM   #141
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,392
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Some brexiteers say that they voted to take back control or souvereignty. How does extraditing UK subjects on the mere request of a foreign police force fit with being a fully souvereign nation?
I'm sure Brexiteers believe they can negotiate a deal that only involves the UK being able to demand the arrest of people in EU states and not vice versa. It would be in keeping with everything else that's been promised from Brexit.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 06:00 AM   #142
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'
Posts: 13,833
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Don't you understand the concept of mutual benefit? We're offering the EU the option of benefitting from our expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror, but they're too petulant to accept.
No, if i understand what you want correctly we are offering the EU the option of benefiting from our expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror, and in return they:
  • Give us the benefit of their expertise in crime fighting and anti-terror,
  • Give up on the EAW.
  • Enter a new EU/UK agreement to run parallel to the EUAW
  • Lose the ability to quickly react to events or change the terms under the normal streamlined process as it is now an external as opposed to an internal agreement.
  • They also need to accept that all decisions relating to the UK information exchanges, suspect deportations etc will be subject to UK law as opposed the ECJ.
    The ECJ can still make decisions but it will be subservient to all levels of the UK courts same with any disputes with the agreement itself.

Good luck, I see the benefit to the UK, the EU not so much.

Last edited by Lothian; 29th June 2018 at 06:02 AM.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 06:06 AM   #143
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,182
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As any fule kno, young crumpets are called pikelets.

Carbon Dioxide is used to provide an inert atmosphere inside packaging to retard spoilage.
Why nor use nitrogen? it is inert, isn't a greenhouse gas and is a byproduct of oxygen production.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 06:08 AM   #144
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,182
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
I thought you were pushing the 'out means out' option?

I see I was mistaken, you want 'out means out' apart from the bits we want to stay in?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 06:26 AM   #145
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why nor use nitrogen? it is inert, isn't a greenhouse gas and is a byproduct of oxygen production.
Dunno, it usually comes down to cost and/or convenience.

This price list for industrial gases seems to indicate that nitrogen is more expensive and if the plant already has other uses for Carbon Dioxide then they may already have facilities for, and experience with using it.

https://www.boconline.co.uk/internet...410_450923.pdf
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 06:27 AM   #146
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why nor use nitrogen? it is inert, isn't a greenhouse gas and is a byproduct of oxygen production.
CO2 is preferred in meat packaging because it makes the meat retain a pretty red color.
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 08:28 AM   #147
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,956
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why nor use nitrogen? it is inert, isn't a greenhouse gas and is a byproduct of oxygen production.
I would assume that it's more hazardous.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 09:37 AM   #148
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,956
BBC News: Reality Check - The Brexit challenge for Irish trade

"The future of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is proving to be a massive challenge in the Brexit negotiations, and talk of "no deal" is making a lot of people nervous.

But it's not just in the UK that this matters, because the Republic of Ireland depends on trade with the United Kingdom for its economic well-being.

There's been a lot of talk about north-south trade across the border with Northern Ireland, and the need to avoid any border checks.

But in purely economic terms, east-west trade across the Irish Sea between Ireland and Great Britain is far more important.

The vast majority of freight traffic leaving the Republic of Ireland is exported from Dublin, with the busiest routes to ports such as Liverpool and Holyhead."
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 10:32 AM   #149
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,686
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Reality Check - The Brexit challenge for Irish trade

"The future of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is proving to be a massive challenge in the Brexit negotiations, and talk of "no deal" is making a lot of people nervous.

But it's not just in the UK that this matters, because the Republic of Ireland depends on trade with the United Kingdom for its economic well-being.

There's been a lot of talk about north-south trade across the border with Northern Ireland, and the need to avoid any border checks.

But in purely economic terms, east-west trade across the Irish Sea between Ireland and Great Britain is far more important.

The vast majority of freight traffic leaving the Republic of Ireland is exported from Dublin, with the busiest routes to ports such as Liverpool and Holyhead."
That's just more evidence that the BBC is a government mouth piece and not a reliable broadcaster.

Reality check back - Project Fear will not work. The UK government has three options to choose from...

1) Stay in the Single Market
2) Have a Canada style FTA
3) No deal and trade on WTO rules.

It doesn't matter how much they threaten Ireland's economy or other countries' security, there isn't going to be a magical fourth option which allows Britain to cherry pick bits of the SM. Time for May to show some leadership and make a choice.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 10:48 AM   #150
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,326
Letter in the FT on costs of customs reporting etc on trade:

Quote:
We are a 95 per cent export manufacturer of high tech instrumentation, so we have a lot of experience in overseas trade. On May 24 the head of HM Revenue & Customs estimated that post-Brexit, import-export may cost industry 20bn extra at UK borders. With 10m of exports, 75 per cent outside the EU, and 1.5m of imports, 85% non-EU, we are in a good position to give a realistic figure for these costs.

All imports enter under Inward Processing Relief, and no taxes are paid at the border. Goods may remain in the UK for up to nine months free of duty and value added tax. Duty and VAT become payable if the goods are sold within the EU, but not if they are exported outside. When we sell our equipment to a Japanese company, we invoice free of VAT as an export. It collects ex-works and delivers worldwide, sometimes direct to a customer within the EU. It will invoice without VAT as, being based in Japan, it is not VAT registered. It is that company’s customer who must record and pay VAT, on the basis that it is an import even though the goods may have crossed no frontiers.

Our VAT and tax returns are made on a monthly and quarterly basis, with payment by direct debit. Every two to three years, HMRC audits our record-keeping. Maintaining this system requires a skilled person for one or two days a week — at a 50 hourly rate for 500 hours per year, the annual cost is 25,000. We also employ shipping agents at a 70,000 annual cost, of which over 90 per cent is transport charges. Our cost for import-export paperwork is about 32,000.

Our largest tax is the 20 per cent VAT charged on importing goods from the EU, just as from the US or Japan. This will not change after Brexit, although there may be a 3-5 per cent duty if no deal is done. The cost in additional paperwork will therefore be no more than 10 per cent of the present 32,000. We will incur an average 4 per cent duty on our 225,000 of EU imports, but will recover 95 per cent of this on exporting, so duties will cost the company about 500. Assuming we do business with the EU on terms no worse than the rest of the world, the cost will be around 3,700, or 0.04 per cent of our 10m turnover. Compared to currency exposure where rates can change by 1 per cent daily, this is a negligible figure, so Brexit on any terms will not change our business.

Jeremy Good
Director, Cryogenic Ltd, London W3, UK
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 11:30 AM   #151
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Letter in the FT on costs of customs reporting etc on trade:
I wonder how much of that trade is facilitated by EU-Japan(etc) agreements.
__________________
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up.
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:04 PM   #152
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,123
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Analogies are all limited. What happens when you leave a club depends on the club rules. You may get your membership fee back less the period you were a member for. Some clubs you could sell your membership to eligible persons who wished to join; you might actually turn a profit. What is the case here is that there are no club rules for leaving; they have to be agreed. Unlike most golf clubs this club says you can't play with / be a member of other clubs (except when playing as part of the EU golf club team).

A better analogy might be of a co-op club where each member brings their own holes. The UK gets to take away one of the holes. (A really great hole, one of the best holes ever, a Dodgson-Hawking hole.) The rest of the members can still play, but with one less hole. If they want to play the same rounds as before they need to negotiate a deal. No I don't want to be a member of your club; you can decide who joins what the fees are, what you wear. But if your 17 members want to play with my hole then I need to be allowed to play with your holes. There are also other clubs next to me, and I want to play with their holes and I don't want your permission for other people to play with my hole. (Please improve the analogy with appropriate use of terms such as wood, putting, balls etc.)

Like I said, I don't think it's an analogy. (Excluding golf references, of course.) The EU is a club. It's really that simple.

It may not be a 'simple' club, but that isn't relevant. Countries join it, voluntarily, with the approval of other members of the club. There are club rules and by-laws, club benefits, and club expenses. Club members accept contractual obligations with the membership agreement, and can undertake later ones which may or may not be a matter of individual choice.

And they can quit when they choose too, although that may not relieve them of each and every contractual obligation which they have undertaken while still members. Those do not have to be dependent on their continued membership.

Just like pretty much any other club, golf or otherwise.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:06 PM   #153
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'
Posts: 13,833
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Letter in the FT on costs of customs reporting etc on trade:
They have duty suspension but their EU customers do not. Their goods will be 4% more expensive for EU customers.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:07 PM   #154
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,123
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Theresa May using "blackmail" to try and get a better Brexit deal



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44651610

If safety is so important, don't leave

I'm not sure that counts as blackmail.

Extortion, mebbe.
"That's a mighty nice Union ya got there. Be a shame if something happened to it."
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:10 PM   #155
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,123
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've been convinced since day 1 of Theresa May's premiership that that is where we are inevitably heading - a hard, likely no deal, Brexit with all the pain that involves. It's the only way to engage the Dunkirk SpiritTM and allows everything to be blamed on the intransigence of the EU.

Why else would they work so hard to prevent parliament having a meaningful say in the event of a no-deal Brexit unless that's what they expected would happen ?

Retreat? Is that what Brexit is doing?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:12 PM   #156
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,727
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've been convinced since day 1 of Theresa May's premiership that that is where we are inevitably heading - a hard, likely no deal, Brexit with all the pain that involves. It's the only way to engage the Dunkirk SpiritTM and allows everything to be blamed on the intransigence of the EU.

Why else would they work so hard to prevent parliament having a meaningful say in the event of a no-deal Brexit unless that's what they expected would happen ?
Well, it's a logical consequence of the UK's red lines.

Brexit staircase.jpeg

I guess that peace in Northern Ireland and a break up of the UK - with Scotland leaving is a price worth paying for the untrammelled power of leadership of the Conservative party and Prime minister of England and Wales.

I'm ignoring the economic impact, as obviously being marginally regrettable, but not ideologically important.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:53 PM   #157
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,884
Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Trade deals are easy
That's "wars"
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 01:55 PM   #158
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,884
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The difference is that we can't legally at the moment start actual negotiations with another country
Yes but we could totally illegally do it. People forget that when they bang on about being somehow restricted.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 02:02 PM   #159
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,884
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've been convinced since day 1 of Theresa May's premiership that that is where we are inevitably heading - a hard, likely no deal, Brexit with all the pain that involves.
That might have been likely but for the Ireland border. I tend to think this makes the likely outcome the opposite.

Quote:
Why else would they work so hard to prevent parliament having a meaningful say in the event of a no-deal Brexit unless that's what they expected would happen ?
May does actually have a point about this. Setting aside any preference on "type of brexit", she has substantially reduced bargaining power in the arena if it is known by all that she can not actually bind the UK into her negotiating strategy.

(I think there is actually very little negotiating power on either side anyway, for the Ireland border reason above)
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2018, 03:52 PM   #160
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
You KNOw I have not seen any good reason for brexit from it's advocates here.
I think the REAL reaon it "I Don't Like Foreigners".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:52 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.