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Old 29th June 2018, 06:35 PM   #161
ceptimus
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The good reason is that it was put to a democratic referendum vote and 'leave' won. You can't get a better reason than that. Many 'remain' voters are bad losers, refuse to accept the result, and oppose it at every opportunity - we must hope they don't get what they want as it would be a bad day for democracy.

Last edited by ceptimus; 29th June 2018 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 29th June 2018, 06:58 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The good reason is that it was put to a democratic referendum vote and 'leave' won. You can't get a better reason than that. Many 'remain' voters are bad losers, refuse to accept the result, and oppose it at every opportunity - we must hope they don't get what they want as it would be a bad day for democracy.
Yes 'Leave' won the non-binding referendum.... that result in and by itself doesn't explain why people voted 'Leave'.
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Old 29th June 2018, 07:01 PM   #163
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They voted 'leave' because it was their preferred choice from the two choices available.
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Old 29th June 2018, 07:21 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
They voted 'leave' because it was their preferred choice from the two choices available.
You're still struggling with differentiating between result and reason(s).

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Old 29th June 2018, 09:23 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
They voted 'leave' because it was their preferred choice from the two choices available.
The thing is, in a democracy, choices are not 100% binding are they?
So it is possible that, once the consequences of a choice become clear people change their mind, either about their choice or about not bothering to vote.

Just like people can lobby to oust a sitting party, even after they won, in a democracy people can also lobby against a choice they disagree with in the hope they can sway popular opinion back to what they want.

It's kinda how democracies work.
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Old 29th June 2018, 10:57 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The good reason is that it was put to a democratic referendum vote and 'leave' won. You can't get a better reason than that. Many 'remain' voters are bad losers, refuse to accept the result, and oppose it at every opportunity - we must hope they don't get what they want as it would be a bad day for democracy.
David Davis himself said that a democracy isn't a democracy unless it can change its mind. Over the last two years there has been a definitive change of mind, and in the latest polling there is a large majority for a second referendum to express that change of mind now the facts of leaving, not apparent in 2016, have been revealed.

The referendum was not a football match, so winning or losing is not a helpful term, but of course it is still being used by quitters scared of losing a second one.

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Old 29th June 2018, 11:22 PM   #167
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Yes of course the electorate can change its mind when the next vote comes around. That's exactly what has happened. The first vote (in 1975) people voted remain. After 41 years experience of being in the club, when a second vote was granted, people voted leave.

It would make sense, after we've completely left so people can see what that's like, to have a third vote to see if the people wish to rejoin. This could happen after a reasonable period. It doesn't have to be 41 years again, but it could be at least 5 or 10 years after we've completed the leaving process - otherwise we won't have given that a fair test. Also it would require the EU to agree that we could rejoin if the people voted to do that.
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Old 29th June 2018, 11:35 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The thing is, in a democracy, choices are not 100% binding are they?
So it is possible that, once the consequences of a choice become clear...
Exactly. How long do you think it will take to assess those consequences? Surely you must agree that we can't rely on either side's predictions, and that we must allow sufficient time to gather actual evidence.
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Old 29th June 2018, 11:51 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly. How long do you think it will take to assess those consequences? Surely you must agree that we can't rely on either side's predictions, and that we must allow sufficient time to gather actual evidence.
The trouble is that leaving the EU is irreversible - or more specifically leaving the EU on the terms we have now, rejoining would result in a completely different and, less advantageous, deal for the UK.

You give the impression that there's a debate about whether leaving the EU will be better or worse for the UK from an economic standpoint. Informed commentators seem to agree that the debate is about whether it's going to be bad, or disastrously bad for the UK.

As for waiting to see whether things are bad, you don't wait for the whole house to burn down to find out how quickly the fire is spreading.
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Old 30th June 2018, 12:03 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Letter in the FT on costs of customs reporting etc on trade:
Cryogenic Ltd, should change of Director (and maybe of tax consultant too) because this letter contains a lot of approximations and inaccuracies when it comes to VAT and customs regulations.
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Old 30th June 2018, 12:12 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes of course the electorate can change its mind when the next vote comes around. That's exactly what has happened. The first vote (in 1975) people voted remain. After 41 years experience of being in the club, when a second vote was granted, people voted leave.

It would make sense, after we've completely left so people can see what that's like, to have a third vote to see if the people wish to rejoin. This could happen after a reasonable period. It doesn't have to be 41 years again, but it could be at least 5 or 10 years after we've completed the leaving process - otherwise we won't have given that a fair test. Also it would require the EU to agree that we could rejoin if the people voted to do that.
As a matter of fact it is not to the EU to agree whether the UK could rejoin if people voted to do that, but to the governments of all the Member States. No sure that they would all agree (after all the UK had to wait until de Gaulle died before having France agreeing that the UK joins - and after all these years I am wondering whether de Gaulle was not right when he refused the UK admission).

And assuming they would all agree I am pretty sure that they would arrange for a treaty that disallows the UK to ask for exemptions to the rules as it did in the past. Even the Euro could be made compulsory to the UK (if they meet the criteria to enter, that is).

Last edited by Degeneve; 30th June 2018 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 30th June 2018, 05:10 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
That's just more evidence that the BBC is a government mouth piece and not a reliable broadcaster.
I'm not sure how the BBC pointing out obvious problems due to Brexit merits that interpretation.
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Old 30th June 2018, 08:39 AM   #173
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Brexit means brexit, it is going to happen yet there are still whingers who won't accept the will of the people.
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Old 30th June 2018, 09:42 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The trouble is that leaving the EU is irreversible - or more specifically leaving the EU on the terms we have now, rejoining would result in a completely different and, less advantageous, deal for the UK.

You give the impression that there's a debate about whether leaving the EU will be better or worse for the UK from an economic standpoint. Informed commentators seem to agree that the debate is about whether it's going to be bad, or disastrously bad for the UK.

As for waiting to see whether things are bad, you don't wait for the whole house to burn down to find out how quickly the fire is spreading.
By "informed commentators" you mean anyone who happens to agree with your own views; anyone with the opposite view, such as ex chancellors of the exchequer, you dismiss as uninformed racist bigots.


If the situation ever arises where a post-Brexit UK holds another referendum with a narrow margin in favour of rejoining, it will be interesting to watch your reaction in the run-up to rejoin date. There would doubtless be people on the losing side arguing that it would be bad for the country, and a few businesses with vested interests in remaining outside the EU announcing how complicated and expensive it would be for them after rejoining. If the pro-stay-out lobby looked like it were about to reverse the referendum result before it had even been implemented, I don't think you would be very happy about it.
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Old 30th June 2018, 09:55 AM   #175
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The way I see it, it's like leaving a club. You accidentally smash some glasses, maybe do a technicolor yawn on the pavement, go for a large doner and then look for the night bus.
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Old 30th June 2018, 10:33 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
By "informed commentators" you mean anyone who happens to agree with your own views; anyone with the opposite view, such as ex chancellors of the exchequer, you dismiss as uninformed racist bigots.
If you can find any case of me referring to any ex-chancellor of the exchequer as a racist bigot, I'll give you a cookie.


Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If the situation ever arises where a post-Brexit UK holds another referendum with a narrow margin in favour of rejoining, it will be interesting to watch your reaction in the run-up to rejoin date. There would doubtless be people on the losing side arguing that it would be bad for the country, and a few businesses with vested interests in remaining outside the EU announcing how complicated and expensive it would be for them after rejoining. If the pro-stay-out lobby looked like it were about to reverse the referendum result before it had even been implemented, I don't think you would be very happy about it.
At least it would be clear, if there was a rejoin referendum, what the rejoin situation would be.

If the "Rejoin" campaign claimed that we would get a better deal than when we were previously members and that the "four freedoms" wouldn't have to apply and so forth then the "Stay Out" could IMO rightly call foul and pressure the government of the day not to abide by the non-binding referendum because those voting to rejoin were voting for something impossible.
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Old 30th June 2018, 11:49 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you can find any case of me referring to any ex-chancellor of the exchequer as a racist bigot, I'll give you a cookie.
You think ex-chancellors are merely uninformed then - their former position somehow excuses them from the 'racist' tag that you think applies to the majority of other leave voters?
Quote:
At least it would be clear, if there was a rejoin referendum, what the rejoin situation would be.

If the "Rejoin" campaign claimed that we would get a better deal than when we were previously members and that the "four freedoms" wouldn't have to apply and so forth then the "Stay Out" could IMO rightly call foul and pressure the government of the day not to abide by the non-binding referendum because those voting to rejoin were voting for something impossible.
It wouldn't be clear. After the referendum the defeated 'stay out' lobby would publicise EU terms and conditions that hadn't been made clear during the campaign, and the EU might be in the process of introducing new reforms that hadn't been in place during the campaign; some existing trading partners outside the EU might threaten that the new trade to a within-the-EU-UK would cost us more and so on... I'm sure you can imagine for yourself a situation that would mirror the current one but with the opposite side of the argument being the one trying to ignore and reverse a democratic decision.
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Old 30th June 2018, 11:52 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes of course the electorate can change its mind when the next vote comes around. That's exactly what has happened. The first vote (in 1975) people voted remain. After 41 years experience of being in the club, when a second vote was granted, people voted leave.

It would make sense, after we've completely left so people can see what that's like, to have a third vote to see if the people wish to rejoin. This could happen after a reasonable period. It doesn't have to be 41 years again, but it could be at least 5 or 10 years after we've completed the leaving process - otherwise we won't have given that a fair test. Also it would require the EU to agree that we could rejoin if the people voted to do that.
Not a good idea, as we would lose all our current exemptions with your suggestion.
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Old 30th June 2018, 11:54 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Brexit means brexit, it is going to happen yet there are still whingers who won't accept the will of the people.
....and there are still quitters who took forty years to stop whinging, who are now criticising remainers for whinging for just two years.
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Old 30th June 2018, 12:07 PM   #180
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And Gove apparently threw a tantrum:

'Livid' Michael Gove rips up EU customs partnership report


Of course you have to wonder why a man who favours a hard Brexit was in charge of assessing the other option, actually why would you put Gove in charge of anything?

Remember Leave means Leave, Leave does not mean keeping any of the promises made to get people to vote Leave.
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Old 30th June 2018, 01:12 PM   #181
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As I understand it, Gove ripped up the report because the civil servants who wrote it wrongly summarized the views of the politicians. The report made it seem as though Gove approved of the customs partnership idea whereas he actually said it was over bureaucratic and he was against it.
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Old 30th June 2018, 01:21 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Not a good idea, as we would lose all our current exemptions with your suggestion.
Only if we are allowed to actually leave and later decide to rejoin. That's a risk we'll have to take.

When the people vote to do something, surely it is only right to actually do that thing? If a country is too scared of the consequences to actually implement the chosen outcome, then it should never offer the choice in the first place. Too late for that now: the choice was already offered and the decision already taken.

The suggestion of remainers is that we fail to implement the choice already democratically made, that way we'll never find out how much better, or worse, things are outside the EU.
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Old 30th June 2018, 01:25 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Of course you have to wonder why a man who favours a hard Brexit was in charge of assessing the other option, actually why would you put Gove in charge of anything?

It was one of May's fudge attempts. Put the people who favour a hard Brexit in charge of assessing the soft option, and the soft Brexit advocates in charge of assessing a slightly harder (though still soft really) option. She hoped they would somehow come to a fudgy compromise position. All pointless anyhow as the EU will likely say no to either option, or to some mixture of the two options.
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Old 30th June 2018, 02:27 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It was one of May's fudge attempts. Put the people who favour a hard Brexit in charge of assessing the soft option, and the soft Brexit advocates in charge of assessing a slightly harder (though still soft really) option. She hoped they would somehow come to a fudgy compromise position. All pointless anyhow as the EU will likely say no to either option, or to some mixture of the two options.
The EU is struggling to respond to the UK's position because it is incoherent and even the cabinet don't know.

Whatever happened to "that's ten against and one in favour, the ayes have it"

If the PM can't keep the cabinet in line, then they're utterly useless. If she imposed some discipline, and sacked those briefing against her, the situation couldn't get worse for her, and if it failed, at least sh'ed have some dignity.
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Old 30th June 2018, 02:32 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I thought you were pushing the 'out means out' option?

I see I was mistaken, you want 'out means out' apart from the bits we want to stay in?
Yeah, thank goodness we weren't stupid enough to try and decide this whole business on a simple yes/no vote. Can you imagine what a cluster **** that would have turned into trying to decide what bits people actually wanted in or out of?
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Old 30th June 2018, 05:56 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Yes 'Leave' won the non-binding referendum.... that result in and by itself doesn't explain why people voted 'Leave'.
From what I've read, the two things that drove the leave vote were immigration and sovereignty.

Sovereignty is why I voted leave. And it's why I still would.
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Old 30th June 2018, 11:54 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Cryogenic Ltd, should change of Director (and maybe of tax consultant too) because this letter contains a lot of approximations and inaccuracies when it comes to VAT and customs regulations.
Name them please
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Old 30th June 2018, 11:57 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If she imposed some discipline, and sacked those briefing against her, the situation couldn't get worse for her
That would reduce the Cabinet to a handful, briefings are coming from both sides...
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Old 1st July 2018, 12:37 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
From what I've read, the two things that drove the leave vote were immigration and sovereignty.

Sovereignty is why I voted leave. And it's why I still would.
What sovereignty did you feel was lost while you were a member of the EU? And do you think you'll get it back in any meaningful way once you are out of the EU?

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Old 1st July 2018, 02:14 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
That would reduce the Cabinet to a handful, briefings are coming from both sides...
And? She'd have to promote nonentities to the Cabinet, but from her point of view- would that really be worse?
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Old 1st July 2018, 02:44 AM   #191
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Apparently the Cabinet are meeting on Friday to finalise the white paper.

Good luck to them!
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Old 1st July 2018, 02:53 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently the Cabinet are meeting on Friday to finalise the white paper.

Good luck to them!
But it is all the fault of the nasty EU for not accepting whatever May says at the time regardless as to whether it is physically practical, or even logically consistent.
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Old 1st July 2018, 03:09 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Name them please
Here a few of the biggest ones:

Quote:
When we sell our equipment to a Japanese company, we invoice free of VAT as an export
Invoicing a Japanese company doesn't create a VAT free export. The exemption (VAT zero rate) depends on the destination given to the goods and on the customs status of the goods

Quote:
It will invoice without VAT as, being based in Japan, it is not VAT registered
The obligation to VAT register in the EU doesn't rest on where a company s established but on whether it carries on transactions that makes it liable to register for VAT purposes somewhere in the EU. I have worked for 3 different Swiss companies with multiple VAT registrations in EU Member States (UK included).

Quote:
It is that company’s customer who must record and pay VAT, on the basis that it is an import even though the goods may have crossed no frontiers
To which one will need to add customs duties once the UK is not Member of the EU anymore. This might entail that the EU customers of the Japanese company might look for other suppliers with no customs duties or that the Japanese company might look for another subcontractor located within the EU
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Old 1st July 2018, 03:26 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Sovereignty is why I voted leave. And it's why I still would.
Coming from a sovereignty angle, what's your opinion on the european arrest warrant?
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Old 1st July 2018, 03:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently the Cabinet are meeting on Friday to finalise the white paper.

Good luck to them!
Will they get a good Friday agreement?
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Old 1st July 2018, 03:52 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The good reason is that it was put to a democratic referendum vote and 'leave' won. You can't get a better reason than that. Many 'remain' voters are bad losers, refuse to accept the result, and oppose it at every opportunity - we must hope they don't get what they want as it would be a bad day for democracy.
Many voters after an election oppose the result of that election.

Is it democratic to deny the people the right to have a differing view to the outcome of a vote?

The main reason I object to the referendum is not the result of the vote, but the fact that no one knew what the outcome of a leave vote entailed. As can be seen by the state the government is in now.
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Old 1st July 2018, 04:17 AM   #197
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
Many voters after an election oppose the result of that election.

Is it democratic to deny the people the right to have a differing view to the outcome of a vote?

The main reason I object to the referendum is not the result of the vote, but the fact that no one knew what the outcome of a leave vote entailed. As can be seen by the state the government is in now.
Indeed, prominent Leavers like Johnson were saying at the time that the UK could stay in the EEA. That is closer to remain than to a hard Brexit that they are now proposing.

I would have guessed that given the tightnesss of the vote, if the referendum had two questions

Should the UK remain in the EU
Should the UK remain in the EEA

then most people would have voted to remain in the EEA.

If the question was - Should the UK remain in the EU, or leave and cause the collapse of peace in Northern Ireland, I guess that the majority would have voted to remain.
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Old 1st July 2018, 04:24 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
What sovereignty did you feel was lost while you were a member of the EU?
For example, being subject to EU Regulations and Directives, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.

Quote:
And do you think you'll get it back in any meaningful way once you are out of the EU?
I hope so. Time will tell.
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Old 1st July 2018, 04:26 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Coming from a sovereignty angle, what's your opinion on the european arrest warrant?
Sovereign states often have extradition treaties and other such arrangements, do they not? I don't see why we couldn't agree something along those lines with the EU.
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Old 1st July 2018, 04:33 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
For example, being subject to EU Regulations and Directives, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.


I hope so. Time will tell.
IIRC the European Court of Human Rights is part of the Council of Europe and not the EU. Russia is a member of the council of Europe.

So unless we had a referendum to leave the Council of Europe we would still be bound by the ECHR.
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