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Old 1st July 2018, 04:35 AM   #201
Aber
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Here a few of the biggest ones:
Mostly agree with those, but the original letter didn't go into that level of detail.

I assume that they've survived a few VAT visits with their processes, otherwise they may heading for a large bill.
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Old 1st July 2018, 04:44 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Sovereign states often have extradition treaties and other such arrangements, do they not? I don't see why we couldn't agree something along those lines with the EU.
Yes, extradition treaties will probably be negotiated. But HMG would prefer to keep the european arrest warrant. No opinion on that?
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Old 1st July 2018, 05:17 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Yes, extradition treaties will probably be negotiated. But HMG would prefer to keep the european arrest warrant. No opinion on that?
Not particularly, no.
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Old 1st July 2018, 05:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
IIRC the European Court of Human Rights is part of the Council of Europe and not the EU. Russia is a member of the council of Europe.

So unless we had a referendum to leave the Council of Europe we would still be bound by the ECHR.
Now you are just confusing them.
Who would have thought that there can be separate things with the word Europe in their name?
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Old 1st July 2018, 06:40 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It was one of May's fudge attempts. Put the people who favour a hard Brexit in charge of assessing the soft option, and the soft Brexit advocates in charge of assessing a slightly harder (though still soft really) option. She hoped they would somehow come to a fudgy compromise position. All pointless anyhow as the EU will likely say no to either option, or to some mixture of the two options.
Yeah curse the EU for having all those rules and sticking to them. Maybe you might want to blame the Leave supporters who promised the earth to get people to vote leave? But I suppose taking responsibility is like honesty, not really a Leave thing.
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Old 1st July 2018, 06:43 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
Many voters after an election oppose the result of that election.

Is it democratic to deny the people the right to have a differing view to the outcome of a vote?

The main reason I object to the referendum is not the result of the vote, but the fact that no one knew what the outcome of a leave vote entailed. As can be seen by the state the government is in now.
Not to mention that promises were made to influence voters that's it now clear the Brexiteers can't/won't keep.
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Old 1st July 2018, 09:13 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
Yet more rubbish.
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Old 1st July 2018, 09:16 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Let me guess why. Because that's what the EU says, and you accept all EU pronouncements as if they were some kind of natural law?
If the UK wants to be within the EAW 'zone' then it stays within the jurisdiction of the European courts! It's really very simple.
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Old 1st July 2018, 09:27 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
But Brexit means Brexit.

Another point that wasn't made clear before the referendum.
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Old 1st July 2018, 09:53 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Now you are just confusing them.
Who would have thought that there can be separate things with the word Europe in their name?
I am not a ‘them’, and see no reason for insults.
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Old 1st July 2018, 07:55 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
For example, being subject to EU Regulations and Directives, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.
Are there any EU regulations or directives that you have a particular problem with? Or any ECJ ruling that you object to? Or is it just the principle of the thing that bothers you?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 12:32 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
For example, being subject to EU Regulations and Directives, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.


I hope so. Time will tell.
The ECHR is nothing to do with our EU membership, it's something that Churchill set up and was drafted mainly by the UK.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 12:43 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The ECHR is nothing to do with our EU membership, it's something that Churchill set up and was drafted mainly by the UK.
...and it's something that Theresa May has said in the past that she wants to be free from:

Quote:
Theresa May is planning on making the case to leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) a central aspect of her 2020 election campaign, according to reports.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7499951.html

Post Brexit UK seems to want to be a pastiche of President Trump's US, unfettered from international trade obligations, free from international human rights legislation, increasing defence spending and blaming immigrants for society's ills
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:08 AM   #214
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I am aware some people dislike the ECHR and I know May wanted rid of it. I struggle to find objectionable rights in there and wonder which right May wants rid of. I suspect in reality it is none. Happy for people to identify the obnoxious rights in the list below. I recall MAy constantly blamed the ECHR for being unable to deport Abu Hamza. In reality the court didn't object, the delay was all from the UK end.

Main articles.

Article 1 – Obligation to respect human rights
Article 2 – Right to life
Article 3 – Prohibition of torture
Article 4 – Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security
Article 6 – Right to a fair trial
Article 7 – No punishment without law
Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life
Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Article 10 – Freedom of expression
Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12 – Right to marry
Article 13 – Right to an effective remedy
Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:13 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Sovereignty is why I voted leave. And it's why I still would.
Sovereignty is the one argument I don't understand. By that I mean I don't understand what specifically you are objecting to.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:18 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am aware some people dislike the ECHR and I know May wanted rid of it. I struggle to find objectionable rights in there and wonder which right May wants rid of. I suspect in reality it is none. Happy for people to identify the obnoxious rights in the list below. I recall MAy constantly blamed the ECHR for being unable to deport Abu Hamza. In reality the court didn't object, the delay was all from the UK end.

Main articles.

Article 1 – Obligation to respect human rights
Article 2 – Right to life
Article 3 – Prohibition of torture
Article 4 – Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security
Article 6 – Right to a fair trial
Article 7 – No punishment without law
Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life
Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Article 10 – Freedom of expression
Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12 – Right to marry
Article 13 – Right to an effective remedy
Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination

They want to replace the ECHR with a Bill of British Rights whatever they are.
I think it is 9, 10 and14 that most of those that support leaving want rid of.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:39 AM   #217
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As for Directives and Regulations, anyone trading with them (and it is a very large chunk of our trade) will still be stuck with aligning with them...we just won't have any say.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:34 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They want to replace the ECHR with a Bill of British Rights whatever they are.
I think it is 9, 10 and14 that most of those that support leaving want rid of.
Which one does prisoners having the vote come under ? I think there is a lot of opposition to that one.

IMO it's not so much specific rulings or rights that they object to so much as there being a higher court that people can appeal to and then can overrule the UK courts. If our courts allow us to break our own laws then there shouldn't be a right of appeal to a higher court who will remind us of our legal obligations.


edited to add...

and Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

Isn't that the one that Theresa May lied about when she claimed was used by someone to avoid deportation because they had a cat ?

Last edited by The Don; 2nd July 2018 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:42 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty is the one argument I don't understand. By that I mean I don't understand what specifically you are objecting to.
I suppose it means that the UK isn't completely free to implement whatever legislation we want because our ability is constrained by EU laws. Of course by extension that means that the UK shouldn't engage in any international treaties whatsoever because to a greater or lesser extent, they constrain our ability to do exactly what we want.

For example, the Paris Accord limits our ability to pollute as we see fit and other international busybodies prevent us torturing people, laying landmines indiscriminately and seizing the whole of Antarctica.

An argument can be made that other international treaties are limited in their scope whereas the relationship with the EU is much broader and has many more touch points. That said, as I understand it, the UK has voted in favour of the vast majority of EU legislation and will usually have an opt-out where the terms are too onerous.

IMO there is a risk that other counties may actually have greater leverage on the UK post-Brexit than the EU currently have and as a consequence, our sovereignty will be even more constrained and curtailed.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 05:00 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Are there any EU regulations or directives that you have a particular problem with? Or any ECJ ruling that you object to? Or is it just the principle of the thing that bothers you?
The principle.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 05:22 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
The principle.
Can you explain the principle to someone acculturated in a republic?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 06:04 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
The principle.
At any cost? Or is there a cut-off point where you would reconsider your choice?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 06:12 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The ECHR is nothing to do with our EU membership, it's something that Churchill set up and was drafted mainly by the UK.
A minor detail. Without those pesky foreigners Britain would be able to imprison people without trial, brutalise prisoners, repeatedly arrest people for the same alleged offense, send people to the US for execution, arrest people for being Irish/Catholic, discriminate against homosexuals, permit racially biased juries, et cetera, et cetera.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 06:18 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Which one does prisoners having the vote come under ? I think there is a lot of opposition to that one.
The Firth (et al) case? Article 3 of Protocol No. 1
Quote:
The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature
In some other cases of voter discrimination Article 14 has also been invoked.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 06:57 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
For example, being subject to EU Regulations and Directives, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights.
Oh. Dear.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 07:00 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We don't want to leave the European Arrest Warrant. It's the EU in the shape of Michael Barnier that is threatening to kick us out and make everyone less safe. Understandable that he thinks threats to the UK are more important right now than the safety of EU citizens.
Brexit means Brexit!
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Old 2nd July 2018, 12:28 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am aware some people dislike the ECHR and I know May wanted rid of it. I struggle to find objectionable rights in there and wonder which right May wants rid of. I suspect in reality it is none. Happy for people to identify the obnoxious rights in the list below. I recall MAy constantly blamed the ECHR for being unable to deport Abu Hamza. In reality the court didn't object, the delay was all from the UK end.

Main articles.

Article 1 – Obligation to respect human rights
Article 2 – Right to life
Article 3 – Prohibition of torture
Article 4 – Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security
Article 6 – Right to a fair trial
Article 7 – No punishment without law
Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life
Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Article 10 – Freedom of expression
Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12 – Right to marry
Article 13 – Right to an effective remedy
Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination
The problem is the ECHR wants those rights for everyone!
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Old 2nd July 2018, 01:14 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The problem is the ECHR wants those rights for everyone!
It makes me physically ill to contemplate that.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:23 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Can you explain the principle to someone acculturated in a republic?
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.

Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
At any cost? Or is there a cut-off point where you would reconsider your choice?
*shrug* I couldn't give you a particular "point" - I'm not sure what scale one could sensibly use. Let's say a point considerably higher than whatever the fallout of leaving the EU is, which is really the only "point" that matters.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:35 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
Why don't you include the WTO in your objections?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:40 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why don't you include the WTO in your objections?
Never given it a lot of thought. I'm open to it, if you want to argue for it.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:43 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
.
The EU is our institution and we elect people to it. Ok we don't elect every member. We only elect one. You also get people elected to represent weird places where the people are very different to here and don't understand our way of life and our customs and traditions. Places like Tooting, Newry, Penzance and Cumbernauld, but there are huge advantages in economy of scale if we can share the cost of administration. Advantages that outway the differences between us.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:46 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
It's an emotional preference without any intellectual rationalization?

How do you feel about being her majesty's subject, governed by her majesty's government?
You do not elect civil servants or even the government. Is that a problem?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:52 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
What a shame Theresa May doesn't agree with you, she's battled relentless to spare her Brexit policies from any Parliamentary scrutiny and of course to cut parliament out of any say in what EU laws we retain and how they are implemented.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:53 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Never given it a lot of thought. I'm open to it, if you want to argue for it.
They govern international trade and make decisions that we have to abide by, just like European bodies.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 02:56 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The EU is our institution
It may be yours. It isn't mine.

Quote:
Advantages that outway the differences between us.
To you. Not to me.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:01 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
It's an emotional preference without any intellectual rationalization?
Pretty much.

Quote:
How do you feel about being her majesty's subject
As I understand it, these days the British people are not her majesty's subjects but rather citizens. But I'm quite proud of being a citizen of the UKOGBANI. Or a subject, if you prefer that word.

Quote:
governed by her majesty's government?

You do not elect civil servants or even the government. Is that a problem?
Not for me, no.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
What a shame Theresa May doesn't agree with you
Indeed. Still, one can't have everything.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:02 PM   #238
Garrison
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So Theresa has a new customs 'plan':

Brexit customs plan will offer 'best of both worlds'

Of course it yet again turns out that there is no consensus amongst the Conservatives in Westminster and some are saying it isn't actually a plan at all, so business as usual while the clock keeps running.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:16 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Not for me, no.
Not electing major parts of the british government is not a problem. It looks like the difference in reaction to EU and UK unelected officials is based on ingroup/outgroup psychological mechanisms. Do I get that right?
Thanks for your answers, btw.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 03:19 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Not electing major parts of the british government is not a problem. It looks like the difference in reaction to EU and UK unelected officials is based on ingroup/outgroup psychological mechanisms. Do I get that right?
Yes, that sounds about right.

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Thanks for your answers, btw.
Most welcome.
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