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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:57 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose it means that the UK isn't completely free to implement whatever legislation we want because our ability is constrained by EU laws. Of course by extension that means that the UK shouldn't engage in any international treaties whatsoever because to a greater or lesser extent, they constrain our ability to do exactly what we want.

For example, the Paris Accord limits our ability to pollute as we see fit and other international busybodies prevent us torturing people, laying landmines indiscriminately and seizing the whole of Antarctica.

An argument can be made that other international treaties are limited in their scope whereas the relationship with the EU is much broader and has many more touch points. That said, as I understand it, the UK has voted in favour of the vast majority of EU legislation and will usually have an opt-out where the terms are too onerous.

IMO there is a risk that other counties may actually have greater leverage on the UK post-Brexit than the EU currently have and as a consequence, our sovereignty will be even more constrained and curtailed.
So why did our own government in their own White Paper say last year that "we never lost sovereignty". Are they lying?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 11:30 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
So why did our own government in their own White Paper say last year that "we never lost sovereignty". Are they lying?
No they are not. The UK still has sovereignty it's just that, like almost every other country, practically it's constrained to a degree by our international treaty obligations.

Of course we can make any law we like, whether it's unilaterally closing our border to EU immigrants or suspending democracy and declaring a dictatorship, but we're likely to to earn censure from whatever body or bodies oversee the international agreements we have signed up to.

The only way to retain full sovereignty is to become completely isolationist and even then you may find your neighbours curtailing your sovereignty for you.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:46 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
No they are not. The UK still has sovereignty it's just that, like almost every other country, practically it's constrained to a degree by our international treaty obligations.

Of course we can make any law we like, whether it's unilaterally closing our border to EU immigrants or suspending democracy and declaring a dictatorship, but we're likely to to earn censure from whatever body or bodies oversee the international agreements we have signed up to.

The only way to retain full sovereignty is to become completely isolationist and even then you may find your neighbours curtailing your sovereignty for you.
Well yes. I have always thought of our sovereignty, and that of the rest of the 27 member states, as sharing a small proportion of it with each other, rather than losing any of it. The analogy would be my BT wifi contract with FON. A bit of the band width is allocated for other members to pick up in my vicinity should they need it, free of charge, and it is reciprocated in the same way, when I am in the location of their vicinity. In the meantime, I carry on using the rest of my own dedicated bandwidth without let or hindrance quite happily.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:00 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Yes, that sounds about right.

Wow
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:15 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Yes, that sounds about right.
Sovereignty to me has no real meaning in context of the brexit debate other than being a euphemism for xenophobia.

You seem to confirm that.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:33 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty to me has no real meaning in context of the brexit debate other than being a euphemism for xenophobia.

You seem to confirm that.
Do I? It doesn't seem that way to me, but to each their own.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:40 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Do I? It doesn't seem that way to me, but to each their own.
No, to you it will feel like something you would prefer British people to decide, but you will probably be unable to explain why other than just feeling right.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:49 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
No, to you it will feel like something you would prefer British people to decide, but you will probably be unable to explain why other than just feeling right.
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?

Curious. But to each their own.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:11 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?

Curious. But to each their own.
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that ManningtreeWP people decide how Manningtree is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Manningtree should be governed by the parishes of England collectively?

Curious. But to each their own.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:28 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty to me has no real meaning in context of the brexit debate other than being a euphemism for xenophobia.

You seem to confirm that.
Xenophobia usually means hostility to people in one's environment who are perceived as outgroup because of ethnicity.
That is not necessarily implied by a wish to be governed by people perceived as ingroup.

That said...

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?
Let's take this context of ethnicity, ingroup/outgroup, and government and think of the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. Can you see how your attitude might cause problems?
For that matter, would it be possible for Scotland to stay part of the UK if everyone shared your approach?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:33 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?
Yes I do.

I find it really weird that British people are happy for decisions to be taken by their local council, their regional authority, their national parliament,The UK parliament, commonwealth, NATO, WTO, Interpol, OECD.

All those bodies have different membership and involve making collective decisions that affect the constituents differently. It could be paying the council for services you don't use or agreeing tariff rates for commodities you don't trade.

People who don't have a problem with that feel that a European level organisation is offensive and renders them impotent. Why are people happy to form some collectives but not others? What is special about an EU level cooperation that people focus on the issue of who makes the decision as opposed to what costs and benefits the cooperation gives.

It is the focusing on the who, which in my view moves the issue toward xenophobia. When someone complains they don't want Germans deciding on acceptable pollution rates instead of complaining that the pollution rates are too high, they have crossed the line. 9 times out of 10 digging deeper into "sovereignty" you will find it is the 'who' that caused offence not the what. Some people are happy paying 27 times as much to make similar or identical decisions but have those decisions taken by Brits. I do think that is xenophobia. It may be at the mild end but it is in that territory.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?

Curious. But to each their own.
Except the British people do decide how Britain is governed.

In a small subset of cases our international treaty obligations, whether they are to the EU, the WTO, the UN and so on do rule out some options, but even so Britain still gets to choose.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:47 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes I do.

I find it really weird that British people are happy for decisions to be taken by their local council, their regional authority, their national parliament,The UK parliament, commonwealth, NATO, WTO, Interpol, OECD.

All those bodies have different membership and involve making collective decisions that affect the constituents differently. It could be paying the council for services you don't use or agreeing tariff rates for commodities you don't trade.

People who don't have a problem with that feel that a European level organisation is offensive and renders them impotent. Why are people happy to form some collectives but not others? What is special about an EU level cooperation that people focus on the issue of who makes the decision as opposed to what costs and benefits the cooperation gives.

It is the focusing on the who, which in my view moves the issue toward xenophobia. When someone complains they don't want Germans deciding on acceptable pollution rates instead of complaining that the pollution rates are too high, they have crossed the line. 9 times out of 10 digging deeper into "sovereignty" you will find it is the 'who' that caused offence not the what. Some people are happy paying 27 times as much to make similar or identical decisions but have those decisions taken by Brits. I do think that is xenophobia. It may be at the mild end but it is in that territory.

Jonathan Harmsworth - he doesn't like those foreigners - well to be fair his family have liked one or two foreigners like that Hitler bloke.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 06:59 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that ManningtreeWP people decide how Manningtree is governed?
No, I don't.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 07:22 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Xenophobia usually means hostility to people in one's environment who are perceived as outgroup because of ethnicity.
That is not necessarily implied by a wish to be governed by people perceived as ingroup.
Indeed. It seems to me that "I would prefer Britain to be governed by the British and not the Germans" (for instance) would only be xenophobic if it were based on fear or hatred of German people. I have no problem with Europeans, who I'm sure are fine people for the most part. I simply don't wish to be governed by them.

Think of it like a family. My family gets together to hang out in little gatherings sometimes. I wouldn't want my neighbours to come to those gatherings, not because I hate or fear my neighbours but because they're family gatherings and my neighbours are not my family.

Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Let's take this context of ethnicity, ingroup/outgroup, and government and think of the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. Can you see how your attitude might cause problems?
No, I cannot. I've said I think Britain should be governed by the British. Mayor Khan is British. What's the problem that would be caused by my attitude, exactly?

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For that matter, would it be possible for Scotland to stay part of the UK if everyone shared your approach?
Huh? If the people of Scotland took the view that Britain should be governed by the British, then I would think that would be a reason for them to stay part of the UK.

I assume that what you mean is that if the Scottish took the view that Scotland should be governed purely by the Scottish people, that would be a problem? That's not my approach. But sure, if they thought that way then they would leave the UK. Of course the last time anybody asked them, they didn't think that way.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Why are people happy to form some collectives but not others? What is special about an EU level cooperation that people focus on the issue of who makes the decision as opposed to what costs and benefits the cooperation gives.
That's a good question. I made a comparison to family gatherings earlier; one could ask why somebody should care about their family more than their neighbours - wouldn't it be a better party if the neighbours came too? And I couldn't argue that they're wrong; I can merely say that I disagree. In the end, those people you think of as "we" and those you don't are always going to be a subjective sort of thing.

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It is the focusing on the who, which in my view moves the issue toward xenophobia. When someone complains they don't want Germans deciding on acceptable pollution rates instead of complaining that the pollution rates are too high, they have crossed the line.
I disagree. I think that line gets crossed when somebody doesn't want Germans deciding such things because they don't like Germans or perceive Germans as unpleasant, untrustworthy, etc.

And of course there would be many such people who voted for leave. It's a shame to be in such company, but it's an imperfect universe.

As for me, I could think that Germans are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 07:42 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
As for me, I could think that Germans are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.
As for me, I could think that women are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.

As for me, I could think that black people are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.

As for me, I could think that the physically disabled are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.


Sorry I am trying to rationalise your reply and am struggling.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 07:44 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
As for me, I could think that Germans are the finest, smartest, most moral, most all-around wonderful group of people in the history of the human race. I'd still prefer that they didn't run my country.

At what cost?

Unless you're an ideologue, there will come a point at which you decide that allowing collective, European decisions into which all parties have input is preferable to the damage that the country will suffer due to not being part of a larger trading bloc (like almost every other non-superpower in the world is or wants to be). For you, where is that point?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:05 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sorry I am trying to rationalise your reply and am struggling.
Well, it's not important that my views make sense to you. It's only important that they make sense to me.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
At what cost?

Unless you're an ideologue, there will come a point at which you decide that allowing collective, European decisions into which all parties have input is preferable to the damage that the country will suffer due to not being part of a larger trading bloc (like almost every other non-superpower in the world is or wants to be). For you, where is that point?
That's already been asked upthread. I don't know that it's an answerable question, really. Check back in twenty five years and see if people think it was worth it then.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:15 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
Yes, we should have been able to elect MEPs... oh... err...
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:20 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
That's already been asked upthread. I don't know that it's an answerable question, really. Check back in twenty five years and see if people think it was worth it then.
That's not what I asked. For you, personally what cost, either foreseen or forthcoming, would cause you to decide / realise it wasn't worth it?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:21 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, we should have been able to elect MEPs... oh... err...
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.

And of course, the other EU nations would not object to this. Because if they did, they'd be xenophobes. And we all know that's not the case!
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:23 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's not what I asked. For you, personally what cost, either foreseen or forthcoming, would cause you to decide / realise it wasn't worth it?
What exactly do you expect me to answer?

Okay. Twenty three. If the cost is higher than twenty three, I'll change my mind.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:26 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed? That the non-xenophobic point of view to have is that Britain should be governed by the nations of Europe collectively?

Curious. But to each their own.
My own view is that that argument is nonsense. The UK is not "governed by the nations of Europe" any more than all the other EU members are. What makes us so *********** exceptional?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:27 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What exactly do you expect me to answer?

Okay. Twenty three. If the cost is higher than twenty three, I'll change my mind.
Great. Rather than sharing the cost of developing policies between 28 member states we will pay the full cost of developing them. An increase of 28 times as much.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:30 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What exactly do you expect me to answer?

Okay. Twenty three. If the cost is higher than twenty three, I'll change my mind.


How much would you accept falling off the economy? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in falls in tax take? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in terms of job losses? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in terms of increased administration costs? 10%? 20%?


Have you thought it through at all? If you haven't, if there is no circumstance you can foresee that would lead you to conclude that this is a bad decision then you're not using logic, you're using ideology.

The fact that you can't even think of what the negative consequences might be indicates that you really, really haven't thought this through.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:41 AM   #266
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Seismosaurus has already said this is a "feels" thing, and not something that's been deeply rationalised.

It's a futile exercise to try and rationalise someone out of a position they haven't rationalised themselves into...or attempt to understand the reasoning for that position because there is none, other than it feels nicer.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:43 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How much would you accept falling off the economy? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in falls in tax take? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in terms of job losses? 10%? 20%?

How much would you accept in terms of increased administration costs? 10%? 20%?
And how do those things scale in comparison to one another? If it's 10% of the first, 15% of the second, 20% of the third, and 5% of the fourth... is that better than if it's 5% of the first, 25% of the second, 15% of the third, and 20% of the fourth? And what about the other dozens if not thousands of factors?

To say "how much damage would it take" is a nonsense question because "damage" is a nebulous concept not amenable to easily being quantified.

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Have you thought it through at all? If you haven't, if there is no circumstance you can foresee that would lead you to conclude that this is a bad decision then you're not using logic, you're using ideology.
Those are not two mutually exclusive things. Logic cannot tell one what one's goals should be. It can only tell one how to best achieve one's goals. The goals themselves stem from ones ideology.

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The fact that you can't even think of what the negative consequences might be indicates that you really, really haven't thought this through.
That's not actually a fact.

But by all means, feel about my views however you wish. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:53 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Seismosaurus has already said this is a "feels" thing, and not something that's been deeply rationalised.

It's a futile exercise to try and rationalise someone out of a position they haven't rationalised themselves into...or attempt to understand the reasoning for that position because there is none, other than it feels nicer.

Totally up to speed now. My thanks for saving my time.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:03 AM   #269
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I suppose you will object to the conditions imposed on us by the other nations in the WTO?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:04 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.

And of course, the other EU nations would not object to this. Because if they did, they'd be xenophobes. And we all know that's not the case!
That is why dictatorships are best, it is all about one man one vote. The dictator is the man and he has the vote.

This whole government should represent different areas it governs is for the birds!
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:04 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.

And of course, the other EU nations would not object to this. Because if they did, they'd be xenophobes. And we all know that's not the case!
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:14 AM   #272
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:15 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.
You liked the Empire huh?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:29 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is why dictatorships are best, it is all about one man one vote. The dictator is the man and he has the vote.

This whole government should represent different areas it governs is for the birds!
That sounded kind of xenophobic. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
You liked the Empire huh?
Bit before my time. Besides, I don't think there were too many MEPs in the Empire. It felt the lack keenly, I'm sure.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:36 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Bit before my time. Besides, I don't think there were too many MEPs in the Empire. It felt the lack keenly, I'm sure.

Whoooooosh.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:42 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Whoooooosh.
The sound of the joke going over your head, I guess.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:44 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.

And of course, the other EU nations would not object to this. Because if they did, they'd be xenophobes. And we all know that's not the case!
Britain elected all the MP's in Westminster, thats going well at the moment.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:51 AM   #278
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Representative democracy, in theory, solves a lot of problems.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:39 AM   #279
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By Lothian's reasoning, the main reason for the existence of the Scottish National Party must be xenophobia.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:51 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
Britain elected all the MP's in Westminster, thats going well at the moment.
See it would be so much better if it was only the english. No welsh, northern Irish or scottish. That would clearly be a marked improvement.
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