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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:57 AM   #281
Lothian
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
By Lothian's reasoning, the main reason for the existence of the Scottish National Party must be xenophobia.
I don't know enough about them. Perhaps it is an element.

In my view it is about putting decisions at the right level. Some will be local, some national, some international. It is a balance between having all decisions decided at a local level which would make everyone happy(ish) but is tremendously expensive and inefficient and having international decisions that may be broad brush and lead to local gripes but is cheap.

If instead of making that choice using rational decision making the SNP make it, insisting all decisions about Scotland must be made by Scots then they could be xenophobic. My understanding is they are pro-Europe which suggests they are not but but as said I don't know enough about their policies.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:09 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
No, I cannot. I've said I think Britain should be governed by the British. Mayor Khan is British. What's the problem that would be caused by my attitude, exactly?
You want to be governed by people who you perceive as ingroup. Some people perceive Khan as outgroup.

Quote:
Huh? If the people of Scotland took the view that Britain should be governed by the British, then I would think that would be a reason for them to stay part of the UK.
Some brexiteers insist that great britain remains part of europe. That is certainly true in the same sense in which canada is part of america.
You don't want to be governed by your fellow europeans, who you perceive as outgroup. You want to be governed by those europeans you perceive as ingroup: Your fellow british.
Isn't it clear how scots might not want to be governed by the british in general but rather by scots in particular for the same reasons?

Quote:
I assume that what you mean is that if the Scottish took the view that Scotland should be governed purely by the Scottish people, that would be a problem? That's not my approach. But sure, if they thought that way then they would leave the UK. Of course the last time anybody asked them, they didn't think that way.
Yes, apparently a majority of scottish people don't think that way. That's the point. What if everyone thought like you?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:35 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty is the one argument I don't understand. By that I mean I don't understand what specifically you are objecting to.
Being told what to do by Johnnie Foreigner.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:41 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Being told what to do by Johnnie Foreigner.
More accurate, given how the EU works, the objection is against sitting in a room with Johnnie Foreigner seeking agreement on issues. Instead we have decided that is not for us and we are going alone and will negotiate our own trade deals by sitting in a room with j...hang on have we thought this through?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:56 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
By Lothian's reasoning, the main reason for the existence of the Scottish National Party must be xenophobia.
No it's sovereignty. Here we have a situation in which sovereignty is really and truly compromised.
The monarch, Lords and Commons can alter the succession to the Crown or repeal the Acts of Union in the same manner in which they can pass an Act enabling a company to make a new railway from Oxford to London....
[N]either the Act of Union with Scotland nor the Dentists Act, 1878, has more claim than the other to be considered a supreme law.
A.V.Dicey, "Introduction to the Study of the Law of the Constitution"
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Old 3rd July 2018, 02:10 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
More accurate, given how the EU works, the objection is against sitting in a room with Johnnie Foreigner seeking agreement on issues. Instead we have decided that is not for us and we are going alone and will negotiate our own trade deals by sitting in a room with j...hang on have we thought this through?
Quoted for truth.

Seriously, how the **** did we get it come to this?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 03:14 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No it's sovereignty. Here we have a situation in which sovereignty is really and truly compromised.
The monarch, Lords and Commons can alter the succession to the Crown or repeal the Acts of Union in the same manner in which they can pass an Act enabling a company to make a new railway from Oxford to London....
[N]either the Act of Union with Scotland nor the Dentists Act, 1878, has more claim than the other to be considered a supreme law.
A.V.Dicey, "Introduction to the Study of the Law of the Constitution"
How is this any different from the EU deciding to adopt a new common currency, or deciding to have a new elected EU president, or forming an EU army, or admitting new countries to the union, or any of the other 'constitutional' changes they have made or are thinking of making? I really am struggling to understand why the SNP hate being 'ruled from Westminster' but are content and even eager to be 'ruled from Brussles.'
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:33 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
You want to be governed by people who you perceive as ingroup. Some people perceive Khan as outgroup.
So then the proper way to word the the question was not what if they had my attitude, but rather what if they had a different attitude that I don't hold. And the answer is that in that case, I would disagree with such people.

Quote:
Some brexiteers insist that great britain remains part of europe. That is certainly true in the same sense in which canada is part of america.
You don't want to be governed by your fellow europeans, who you perceive as outgroup. You want to be governed by those europeans you perceive as ingroup: Your fellow british.
Isn't it clear how scots might not want to be governed by the british in general but rather by scots in particular for the same reasons?
You seem to be saying that because I set boundaries around one group, then I must agree with anybody who sets boundaries around any group. Like the person (I don't remember who) who seemed to be saying that if you want to be governed by British people, that's like wanting to be governed by men, or white people, or whatever.

But it's just not. You might as well say "your favourite food is carrots? Well what if somebody else had a favourite food, but it was arsenic! What then, eh!!!" As if accepting the principle that one has a favourite food means that one must accept that anybody's favourite food is an equally good idea.

But it's not. No more than having loyalty and common cause with any particular group of people - British - means that I have to accept that it's a good idea to feel that way about men or whites or whatever.

Quote:
Yes, apparently a majority of scottish people don't think that way. That's the point. What if everyone thought like you?
And yet again, if everyone thought like me there would be no such thing as a Scottish independence movement. And that will remain the answer no matter how many times or how many different ways I'm asked the same question.

Now if you want to form the question properly, as something like "Well what if everyone wanted to be governed by a particular national group as you do, but with different groups in mind... and in the case of the Scots, that was other Scots... what then!!!"

Well, then there would be Scottish independence. And should be. And might be, for all I know. That would make me sad, but so what?
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:18 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
More accurate, given how the EU works, the objection is against sitting in a room with Johnnie Foreigner seeking agreement on issues. Instead we have decided that is not for us and we are going alone and will negotiate our own trade deals by sitting in a room with j...hang on have we thought this through?
That's because we are shackled to the EU, once we are free of the EU Johnny Foreigner will once again recognise the innate righteousness of the British and will do what we tell them!
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:48 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's because we are shackled to the EU, once we are free of the EU Johnny Foreigner will once again recognise the innate righteousness of the British and will do what we tell them!
Of course, in pretty short order Johnny Foreigner could be joined by Jocky Foreigner, Sean Foreigner and even Dai Foreigner.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:05 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How is this any different from the EU deciding to adopt a new common currency, or deciding to have a new elected EU president, or forming an EU army, or admitting new countries to the union, or any of the other 'constitutional' changes they have made or are thinking of making? I really am struggling to understand why the SNP hate being 'ruled from Westminster' but are content and even eager to be 'ruled from Brussles.'
We have a veto on votes in connection with Security, Finance and EU membership. We can currently block these on our own. The easy way to remember these things is to recall the leave campaign. If they said it, it was a lie.
Originally Posted by Leave campaign leaflet
Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU. Vote Leave, take back control.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:36 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How is this any different from the EU deciding to adopt a new common currency, or deciding to have a new elected EU president, or forming an EU army, or admitting new countries to the union, or any of the other 'constitutional' changes they have made or are thinking of making? I really am struggling to understand why the SNP hate being 'ruled from Westminster' but are content and even eager to be 'ruled from Brussles.'
Because as an EU member the UK could veto all those things, while no such mechanism exists for Scotland, or Wales, or NI, or individual England Regions, for that matter.

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Old 4th July 2018, 01:40 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How is this any different from the EU deciding to adopt a new common currency, or deciding to have a new elected EU president, or forming an EU army, or admitting new countries to the union, or any of the other 'constitutional' changes they have made or are thinking of making? I really am struggling to understand why the SNP hate being 'ruled from Westminster' but are content and even eager to be 'ruled from Brussles.'
Say you so? Dicey tells us that the Union can be formed or amended or dissolved by parliament as easily as parliament can decide to support a new railway. That is to say, it can change the Union constitution without the consent of the Scots or their elected representatives. There is no constitutional safeguard at all; but in the EU, per wiki:
To join the EU, a state needs to fulfil economic and political conditions called the Copenhagen criteria (after the Copenhagen summit in June 1993), which require a stable democratic government that respects the rule of law, and its corresponding freedoms and institutions. According to the Maastricht Treaty, each current member state and the European Parliament must agree to any enlargement.
So there is a constitution, and member states remain states. That is the fundamental difference.

Within the EU, the members are constitutional entities in close cooperation, coordination and alliance. In the U.K. Scotland has been merely a small minority of MPs in a Union parliament, who can be outvoted in any matter without ceremony or restraint, however important or trivial the question may be. If the Union had really been an alliance or confederation things would have been very different. But it was not to be. In 1707 as in 1801 Westminster supremacism ruled.

It started to unravel in 1921 in Ireland, and now Scotland Is fitfully moving towards constitutional change ... but how slow and difficult this process has been!
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:41 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The easy way to remember these things is to recall the leave campaign. If they said it, it was a lie.
Brexit in a nutshell.

BBC News: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

"The official Brexit campaign is expected to be found guilty of four charges of breaking electoral law, the BBC has been told.

The draft of an investigation into Vote Leave concludes it broke spending limits and failed to comply with some of the rules.

It also imposes fines as a result of its findings."
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:08 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If all the MEPs were elected by Britain, and all the Commissioners and Eurocrats and such were appointed by Britain, and the EU President was British, etc, I'd probably like the EU a lot better.

And of course, the other EU nations would not object to this. Because if they did, they'd be xenophobes. And we all know that's not the case!
Am I understanding this right, your issue with the EU is simply that the UK wasn't enforcing its will upon the other member nations?

As a though experiment, how would you have felt about the EU if they had moved the parliament to London, with EU legislative policy coming from there instead of Brussels?
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:19 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Brexit in a nutshell.

BBC News: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

"The official Brexit campaign is expected to be found guilty of four charges of breaking electoral law, the BBC has been told.

The draft of an investigation into Vote Leave concludes it broke spending limits and failed to comply with some of the rules.

It also imposes fines as a result of its findings."
Apparently the BBC reporting that today after an England football victory and having a leave campaigner on to comment shows the BBC is pro brexit and in May's pocket.

Well, according to the left wing scrap the BBC crowd. Those on the right are saying that the BBC reporting it at all shows they are blatantly remains and should be scrapped.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:42 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently the BBC reporting that today after an England football victory and having a leave campaigner on to comment shows the BBC is pro brexit and in May's pocket.

Well, according to the left wing scrap the BBC crowd. Those on the right are saying that the BBC reporting it at all shows they are blatantly remains and should be scrapped.
As usual, we only need to worry when one faction claims, "the BBC are obviously on our side!" If both/all are condemning the BBC, they're probably getting it about right.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently the BBC reporting that today after an England football victory and having a leave campaigner on to comment shows the BBC is pro brexit and in May's pocket.

Well, according to the left wing scrap the BBC crowd. Those on the right are saying that the BBC reporting it at all shows they are blatantly remains and should be scrapped.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/s...95336134201344

Carole says:
Quote:
This isn’t the official report. We don’t know the sanction. & it was leaked & spun by Vote Leave who put it out after midnight, post-football.
This is the official Vote Leave campaign, funded with taxpayers’ money & it leaked this report to select outlets. It briefed the Sun yesterday but wouldn’t answer the Guardian’s emails...

It can’t get reported properly at this stage because we don’t know the details but it’ll help the sting out the real report when it arrives because there’ll be a sense we’ve already heard it...it’s a cynical attempt to bury bad news by a campaign headed by 2 govt ministers.
NB trimmed and joined by me. See link for full text of the tweets

I believe the idea is they put out a low key version of the story at a time when it will be overshadowed so it doesn't prominence.
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:29 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I prefer the country to be governed by those we elect to our own institutions.
Fine. Isolate yourselves and don't deal with anyone else.
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:32 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
You think it's xenophobic that a person would prefer that British people decide how Britain is governed?
But your opinion also appears be be that only "British People" control issues that involve (for example) Britain and France.
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:40 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course, in pretty short order Johnny Foreigner could be joined by Jocky Foreigner, Sean Foreigner and even Dai Foreigner.
Splitters...
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:43 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
So then the proper way to word the the question was not what if they had my attitude, but rather what if they had a different attitude that I don't hold. And the answer is that in that case, I would disagree with such people.

You seem to be saying that because I set boundaries around one group, then I must agree with anybody who sets boundaries around any group. Like the person (I don't remember who) who seemed to be saying that if you want to be governed by British people, that's like wanting to be governed by men, or white people, or whatever.

But it's just not. You might as well say "your favourite food is carrots? Well what if somebody else had a favourite food, but it was arsenic! What then, eh!!!" As if accepting the principle that one has a favourite food means that one must accept that anybody's favourite food is an equally good idea.

But it's not. No more than having loyalty and common cause with any particular group of people - British - means that I have to accept that it's a good idea to feel that way about men or whites or whatever.

And yet again, if everyone thought like me there would be no such thing as a Scottish independence movement. And that will remain the answer no matter how many times or how many different ways I'm asked the same question.

Now if you want to form the question properly, as something like "Well what if everyone wanted to be governed by a particular national group as you do, but with different groups in mind... and in the case of the Scots, that was other Scots... what then!!!"

Well, then there would be Scottish independence. And should be. And might be, for all I know. That would make me sad, but so what?
What I did was ask how you arrived at your opinion and then ask: What if everyone used the same method to arrive at their opinion?

What you are saying - if I understand correctly - is that you can't be held responsible for how other people arrive at their decisions. You will judge their decisions, not how they arrived at them.

I can see how that, too, is a consequent application of the principle. Being associated with undesirable outcomes is unpleasant. So by a strict application of the gut-feeling rule, that must not be.

I think there may be a deep cultural difference at play here. I am trying to analyze the decision-making process and to extract universal principles. That's an approach that came out of the enlightenment and gave us the concept of universal human rights, for example. On Great Britain, the political and legal systems largely by-passed the enlightenment.
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:59 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Am I understanding this right, your issue with the EU is simply that the UK wasn't enforcing its will upon the other member nations?
No, you're not understanding that right.

It was more of an attempt via humour to point out that the UK electing a small portion of MEPs does not mean that the EU government is representative of the UK electorate. And highlight the fact that objecting to being governed by those who are not part of your own country is not, in fact, necessarily xenophobia.

Quote:
As a though experiment, how would you have felt about the EU if they had moved the parliament to London, with EU legislative policy coming from there instead of Brussels?
I don't see why it should make any difference at all. Apart from I guess it would bring a significant flow of money into London, hosting all those extra politicos and bureaucrats. So that would be nice.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:12 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
What I did was ask how you arrived at your opinion and then ask: What if everyone used the same method to arrive at their opinion?
And I pointed out that it is not, in fact, the same method.

The method I used to arrive at my decision was "I'm British, I want to be governed by British people". You seem to be equating this to being the same thing as the general case of "I'm X, I want to be governed by X." But that is not 'the same method'. My method is specific to my being British.

Quote:
What you are saying - if I understand correctly - is that you can't be held responsible for how other people arrive at their decisions. You will judge their decisions, not how they arrived at them.
I certainly can't be held responsible for how other people arrive at their decisions, no. Who amongst us can?

As for judging people, I will judge people's decisions or methods as I see appropriate, according to what those decisions or methods are. For instance many in the thread seem to base their view in the EU being great for trade and the economy, and thus beneficial, and thus something we should be part of. I can see where they're coming from and respect that line of thinking and the conclusion. I just happen to disagree.

Quote:
I think there may be a deep cultural difference at play here. I am trying to analyze the decision-making process and to extract universal principles.
And I keep trying to explain to you that it isn't a universal principle. It's a personal preference.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #305
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OK, by your criteria there are a whole bunch of other international treaties and bodies you should want to see the UK withdrawing from.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:37 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
It was more of an attempt via humour to point out that the UK electing a small portion of MEPs does not mean that the EU government is representative of the UK electorate.
That's like complaining that the UK government is not representative of Wiltshire, because most of the MPs are from counties other than Wiltshire.

Quote:
And highlight the fact that objecting to being governed by those who are not part of your own country is not, in fact, necessarily xenophobia.
Actually, in the context of how member countries are represented in the EU Parliament, it doesn't sound like anything other than xenophobia.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:11 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
And I pointed out that it is not, in fact, the same method.

The method I used to arrive at my decision was "I'm British, I want to be governed by British people". You seem to be equating this to being the same thing as the general case of "I'm X, I want to be governed by X." But that is not 'the same method'. My method is specific to my being British.
I understand. That was what I was trying to say. I try to extract the general principle while you regard that as invalid.
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Old 4th July 2018, 08:25 PM   #308
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
What I did was ask how you arrived at your opinion and then ask: What if everyone used the same method to arrive at their opinion?
Reminds me of a famous passage from Joseph Heller's book.

Originally Posted by Catch 22
Major Danby replied indulgently with a superior smile: “But, Yossarian, suppose everyone felt that way?”
“Then,” said Yossarian, “I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?”
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:33 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
And I pointed out that it is not, in fact, the same method.

The method I used to arrive at my decision was "I'm British, I want to be governed by British people".
Would you then find American insistence on accepting their chlorinated chicken in order to agree a trade deal enforced on the UK as a condition of that deal, should it arise, unacceptable for similar reasons?

My suggestion is that you will say yes, because it would be something the British government would accept and implement, probably in this case at least, out of desperation, but nevertheless agreed, and would conform to your criterion.

Am I right?
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:04 AM   #310
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Unbelievable

Theresa May's grand plan for customs post-Brexit is a combination of the two schemes deemed unworkable. It's like someone pointing out that you cannot go down a set of river rapids in either a submarine or a square-rigged sailing ship and declaring "well then, we shall use a square-rigged submarine !".

Quote:
Downing Street has set out some of the detail of how customs could be handled after Brexit.

No 10 says its new plan - dubbed the "facilitated customs arrangement" - offers "the best of both worlds".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44719576

No Mrs May, it combines the worst features of both the previous schemes, forcing much of the effort and cost onto export businesses who will already be hard pressed trying to stay in business and relying on imaginary technology to deliver a solution - whilst still requiring some kind of hard border in, or around Ireland to keep foreigners out.

Quote:
Downing Street says it's confident the arrangement would be partly in place by the end of the proposed transition period in December 2020 - with the system being fully operational by the next general election.
Can anyone else see the problem of only having a partial solution in place by the end of the transition period ?

And anyway, unless a "partial solution" is government code for "whatever tiny bits of progress have been made by then", the idea that something as complicated as this can be implemented, tested and thoroughly de-glitched in two years is absolutely laughable - even for a partial solution.

The incompetence and complacency is both laughable and frightening at the same time.
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:06 AM   #311
The Don
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Would you then find American insistence on accepting their chlorinated chicken in order to agree a trade deal enforced on the UK as a condition of that deal, should it arise, unacceptable for similar reasons?

My suggestion is that you will say yes, because it would be something the British government would accept and implement, probably in this case at least, out of desperation, but nevertheless agreed, and would conform to your criterion.

Am I right?
Of course an arrangement that the UK government willingly enters into in conjunction with the rest of the EU is somehow an infringement on "sovereignty" whereas an arrangement whereby the UK is forced, through desperation, to accept solo is just fine.
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:41 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
unless a "partial solution" is government code for "whatever tiny bits of progress have been made by then"
It means they've thought of the name for it so far.
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:27 AM   #313
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It's a pathetic half-baked fudge. I'm slightly surprised that May has the cheek to suggest it. Even if May can get her ministers and party to accept the fudge, I can't see the EU accepting it unless the UK is prepared to pay them a whole lot more money, or give them some other bribe such as fishing rights in UK waters for perpetuity.

Assuming the EU says, 'Non', what then? A proper hard Brexit or BRINO? Time will tell.
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:29 AM   #314
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Jaguar Land Rover boss: Brexit threatens £80bn UK investment

Jaguar Land Rover has warned that a "bad" Brexit deal would threaten £80bn worth of investment plans for the UK and may force it to close factories.

The UK's biggest carmaker, owned by India's Tata Motors, said its "heart and soul is in the UK".

But without frictionless trade JLR said its UK investment plans would be in jeopardy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44719656
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:39 AM   #315
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Farage Tweets

"I’ll have no choice but to return to frontline politics if Brexit is delayed beyond March 2019."


Yes, and I will be forced to return to Premiership Football.
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:46 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post

No Mrs May, it combines the worst features of both the previous schemes, forcing much of the effort and cost onto export businesses who will already be hard pressed trying to stay in business and relying on imaginary technology to deliver a solution - whilst still requiring some kind of hard border in, or around Ireland to keep foreigners out.
On the technology front an assessment of current government tech projects.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...ble_and_risky/

tl;dr : More red flags than May Day in Moscow.
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:56 AM   #317
The Don
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Jaguar Land Rover boss: Brexit threatens £80bn UK investment

Jaguar Land Rover has warned that a "bad" Brexit deal would threaten £80bn worth of investment plans for the UK and may force it to close factories.

The UK's biggest carmaker, owned by India's Tata Motors, said its "heart and soul is in the UK".

But without frictionless trade JLR said its UK investment plans would be in jeopardy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44719656
Yeah, but the problem is with JLR mentioning it, not the omnishambles that is causing the issue in the first place

Quote:
The Jaguar Land Rover warning follows similar statements from BMW and Airbus. However, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has called these warnings "completely inappropriate".
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:59 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's a pathetic half-baked fudge. I'm slightly surprised that May has the cheek to suggest it. Even if May can get her ministers and party to accept the fudge, I can't see the EU accepting it unless the UK is prepared to pay them a whole lot more money, or give them some other bribe such as fishing rights in UK waters for perpetuity.

Assuming the EU says, 'Non', what then? A proper hard Brexit or BRINO? Time will tell.
Given that Theresa May's sole concern seems to be keeping her job as Prime Minister, what you refer to as "A proper hard Brexit" with the attendant chaos seems to be the only option.
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Old 5th July 2018, 03:09 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
OK, by your criteria there are a whole bunch of other international treaties and bodies you should want to see the UK withdrawing from.

All of them, it would seem.
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Old 5th July 2018, 03:33 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
And I pointed out that it is not, in fact, the same method.

The method I used to arrive at my decision was "I'm British, I want to be governed by British people". You seem to be equating this to being the same thing as the general case of "I'm X, I want to be governed by X." But that is not 'the same method'. My method is specific to my being British ...

And I keep trying to explain to you that it isn't a universal principle. It's a personal preference.
Then nothing can be said about it. But you do realise that international negotiations must be based on some kind of general principle, and that the personal preference of a particular individual remains important only to that individual, while negotiators must take account of principles on which they can all at least attempt to find agreement. As your method is specific to your "being British" it can't even be the starting point for agreements with people who are not British.
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