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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 27th June 2018, 12:57 PM   #81
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Quote:
Cheap shot.
Welcome to my "Another lefty who just plain hates the military" list.
Why was it a 'cheap shot'?

It was your army that did it.
The British Army did similar things against civilian detainees.
It's what happens when you have the army guarding hostile civilians.
I think he probably considered it a cheap shot because, although the event happened, it likely wasn't reflective of the conduct of the entire army.

It should also be pointed out that while the army in Iraq was "guarding hostile civilians", they will not be doing so if they are tasked with guarding immigrants crossing the U.S./Mexico border, since those individuals are likely to be less hostile.
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:05 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think he probably considered it a cheap shot because, although the event happened, it likely wasn't reflective of the conduct of the entire army.
Yes like the right wing protesters at charlottesville I am sure many of them are fine people. There isn't any actual facts to back this up and some of the torturers feel bad about it now.

https://www.amazon.com/Consequence-M.../dp/1627795138

But thankfully totally free of legal ramifications because that would go too far charging them for torturing prisoners following policy. That would be down right unamerican.
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:37 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think he probably considered it a cheap shot because, although the event happened, it likely wasn't reflective of the conduct of the entire army.
Was that claimed?

Putting the army in charge of guarding civilian prisoners is always a bad idea.
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think he probably considered it a cheap shot because, although the event happened, it likely wasn't reflective of the conduct of the entire army.

It should also be pointed out that while the army in Iraq was "guarding hostile civilians", they will not be doing so if they are tasked with guarding immigrants crossing the U.S./Mexico border, since those individuals are likely to be less hostile.
Somehow I think people who want to be here are not going to be as hostile as the people in the Mideast....
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:44 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Somehow I think people who want to be here are not going to be as hostile as the people in the Mideast....
You think locking them up in military jails won't make them hostile?
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:06 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bolton was fawning all over Putin this morning, very similar to the way they all fawn over Trump in his presence.
Yes, I noticed that.
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:22 PM   #87
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Quote:
Somehow I think people who want to be here are not going to be as hostile as the people in the Mideast....
You think locking them up in military jails won't make them hostile?
Assuming that those held are treated decently, I think the fact that they crossed the border into the U.S. (as opposed to the way the U.S. went out of their way to invade Iraq) will probably mean that Mexican migrants will probably be less hostile than the Iraq insurgents.

Please keep in mind that I am not saying that its a good idea to detain them at all. I think the whole zero-tolerance policy is stupid (both on humanitarian grounds, and on a cost/benefit basis), and I think the underlying reason for the policy is racism. I'm just saying that 1) if people are detained (which they shouldn't be... can't stress that enough), then having the military involved will probably be no better or worse than leaving everything up to ICE, and 2) it likely won't cause any sort of hostility on the part of those detained.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:01 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bolton was fawning all over Putin this morning, very similar to the way they all fawn over Trump in his presence.
Well it's not every day you get to meet the president of the USA....
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That is an awesome platform, and it begs the question: how do you pay for all that AND fund the world's largest military? Of course you can't do both, and the Democrats won't take on the military-industrial complex, so I guess you float more debt.

I would still vote for her. The GOP will bury us in debt too, and if we're going to go down, I would rather do it spending money on people who need it.
Start with the big ones first of all, roll out a national health service and you'll not only cover everyone but save a hell of a lot of money.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:08 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Of course they will. There is no difference between delivering humanitarian aid and guarding a concentration camp full of foreign detainees.
There's little if any difference between running refugee camps and what we're talking about in this case.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Start with the big ones first of all, roll out a national health service and you'll not only cover everyone but save a hell of a lot of money.
That would not be cheap.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:29 PM   #92
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If "leftists" hate the military, it's in roughly the same way that a segment of current and former students "hate" college (and high school) football: they see the intense focus on the institution by the parent organization as unwarranted and damaging to more necessary pursuits.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/statu...27850629378048

So it's the media's fault that Republicans won't speak out about Trump.

Republican snowflakes need a safe space where they can freely express their emotions without fear of criticism.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:39 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
There's little if any difference between running refugee camps and what we're talking about in this case.
Apart from the inmates being convicted and sent there as punishment and awaiting being expelled from the country you mean?
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:41 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Start with the big ones first of all, roll out a national health service and you'll not only cover everyone but save a hell of a lot of money.
"Medicare for all" seems to have broad support at this point in the US.

So do background checks for gun purchases, though.
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Old 27th June 2018, 04:29 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not my claim. What I am saying is that the recipe isn't there right now in most Western European countries IMO.
I would disagree with this. With Brexit we see influence in the UK. In Sweden, a party which was openly Nazi 20 years ago is set to win about 20% of the vote, and thus 20% of the seats in parliament this autumn, if polls are anything to go by. In Germany we have AfD. In Finland we have Perussuomalaiset. In France, Front National. In Norway, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium we have forward marching populist right-wing movements of more or less extreme variety.

We are facing a coordinated wave of extreme right-wing populism across the Western world, all supported by Russia. Any nation or nation could fall into this nonsense.
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Old 27th June 2018, 05:36 PM   #96
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Trump was in Fargo, ND tonight. I wasn't sure why the hell he'd bother, as most Presidents don't bother. We're so blood red that it's not even needed for the most part. Then I remembered that Kramer is going up against Heidi. So he's doing some legwork for him. I was going to go just to see what all the fuss was about but I didn't want to drive there and apparently there were thousands there (That's what the supporters that were there said anyway).
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Old 27th June 2018, 05:48 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Trump was in Fargo, ND tonight. I wasn't sure why the hell he'd bother, as most Presidents don't bother. We're so blood red that it's not even needed for the most part. Then I remembered that Kramer is going up against Heidi. So he's doing some legwork for him. I was going to go just to see what all the fuss was about but I didn't want to drive there and apparently there were thousands there (That's what the supporters that were there said anyway).
He's there because he's guaranteed a crowd that will cheer his every bigotted remark, chant "Lock Her Up" (which he hasn't), and otherwise make him feel good about his tiny "hands".
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Old 27th June 2018, 06:30 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
He's there because he's guaranteed a crowd that will cheer his every bigotted remark, chant "Lock Her Up" (which he hasn't), and otherwise make him feel good about his tiny "hands".
Yeah, I don't think Heidi is going to be able to defend against this one. This country is so hyperpartisan that there is no way she's going to carry more counties than any GOP candidate. It would be extremely complicated.

ETA: Her only prayer is to play on the tariff's completing screwing rural America over right now.
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Old 27th June 2018, 09:09 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A lot of people on the left just plain old hate the military..a hangover from the 1960's.
Another area where I break from left wing orthodoxy.
Same. While I've said that we don't need to spend as much as we do on it, this has more to do with my industry-side work than the idea that the military, itself, is some sort of inherent evil. In reality, a lot of people on the left remain deeply ignorant of the extraordinary humanitarian work the military often does in the face of disaster, in particular.

ETA: I made a mistake above. I meant to say that they remain willfully ignorant, not just deeply so.
I don't hate the military, either, though I do think that we spend excessively much on it, and that we do so in fair part because a number of politicians, especially on the right, use it to virtue signal, more than anything else. I also think that especially right now, diplomacy is being distinctly undervalued.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Given that the refugees have to be detained, chances are the Military will run it better then a private contractor would.
Like it or not, it's a legal order, the Military has to follow it.
(Comparasions between the US Military and the Nazi Military coming in 3..2..1...)
My main comparison between our military and the German military would be that both are quite strong and that that very strength makes certain kinds of people quite enthusiastic to flex it, flaunt it, and generally use it naively. Pride goes before the fall, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
2) it likely won't cause any sort of hostility on the part of those detained.
Being detained will tend to cause hostility, I think. Especially if it's on Trumped up grounds. How that hostility's directed, on the other hand, can be quite variable.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:12 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You have to be kidding.
Nothing gets past you.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:29 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That would not be cheap.
If you adopted a UK NHS style of universal coverage it would half the GDP you spend on healthcare. (Not saying the USA should adopt a UK NHS style, just using it as an example of a NHS.)
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I see it largely confined to the US. There may be some countries with a bit of "form" for that kind of thing who will elect a similar government but in the main IMO Europe will stick with boring old Social Democracy in one form or another.
Were I a praying man, I'd pray you are right. Sadly, I see the pressure to harmonize policy on immigration providing the impetus to the normalization of fascism in Europe. But worse is the ever-more-popular radical freedom gospel1 of the right, now resounding ever more among young "thinkers," much like that inchoate yell for tribal freedom by Mel Gibson at the end of a vacuous movie, with all the same "depth" of insight and paucity of political context.... My concern is that the grounding logic of European unity has been lost upon vast numbers of voters, and this alone may very well drive Europe back to its pre-1940 status, with all the consequences.

1 Freedom as unconstrained action/lawlessness/anarchy, and not as the result of the recognition of and support for fundamental political equality/lawfulness/civilized society.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:12 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
There's little if any difference between running refugee camps and what we're talking about in this case.
So the army really does have a lot of practice running concentration camps?

I honestly didn't know that. I figured they hadn't run any in 70 years.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:18 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
My main comparison between our military and the German military would be that both are quite strong and that that very strength makes certain kinds of people quite enthusiastic to flex it, flaunt it, and generally use it naively. Pride goes before the fall, so to speak.
And the idea that the military is trustworthy because they are the military is scary. It is the belief that feeds the viewing of a military take over as legitimate. So you have to look at their actions and while they look ok on a lot of things they have no record of actually standing up to criminal orders or charging people involved with them. That should be a huge red flag for people about them as a group, instead of "well not all of them are torturers". Maybe not but everyone who matters aided the torturers, so why should I expect their future actions to be any different?
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:24 AM   #105
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Trump Tweets

"In recent days we have heard shameless attacks on our courageous law enforcement officers. Extremist Democrat politicians have called for the complete elimination of ICE. Leftwing Activists are trying to block ICE officers from doing their jobs and publicly posting their..."


"...home addresses – putting these selfless public servants in harm’s way. These radical protesters want ANARCHY – but the only response they will find from our government is LAW AND ORDER!"
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:52 AM   #106
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Quote:
In recent days we have heard shameless attacks on our courageous law enforcement officers
You know when people on tumblr type "I can't even"? Well, I currently couldn't begin to think about evening.
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:01 AM   #107
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:33 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
For me It's OUR Army, and I served for four years in it.
And you don't know crap about how the US Army operates.
US army will use the experience they have running humanitarian operatings worldwide in running these camps.
Iím always skeptical about giving the military a mission where there isnít a clear military objective. The US military is not good at dealing with civilian populations to begin with (US troops are highly conditioned to treat everyone as a potential threat, which fails utterly when the job requires winning the trust of a civilian population.) and the chances that when you give the military a mission they will revert to what they know. The closest normal military operation to this is a prison and if they use anything from that model here it will be a disaster.

IMO it would be best to use a civilian humanitarian group used to dealing with refugees. Iím guessing the Trump administration wonít do that because they want to keep the press away.
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Old 28th June 2018, 06:10 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
There's little if any difference between running refugee camps and what we're talking about in this case.
Generally speaking, militaries prefer to leave delivering humanitarian aid to humanitarian aid groups. They can still provide materials and other support.

My brother in law has a great story about a ďCivilianĒ he worked with who was running the operations for one of the civilian humanitarian agencies in that part of Afghanistan. He could tell the guy wasnít your normal civilian aid worker. They became friends somewhat so they were having a few drinks on this guys last night there he happened to see the guys orders for his next deployment, turns out he was an SAS Colonel. He assumes the guy was there to help ensure civilian aid groups ran smoothly. (they can be somewhat disorganized...)
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Old 28th June 2018, 07:47 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Iím always skeptical about giving the military a mission where there isnít a clear military objective. The US military is not good at dealing with civilian populations to begin with (US troops are highly conditioned to treat everyone as a potential threat, which fails utterly when the job requires winning the trust of a civilian population.) and the chances that when you give the military a mission they will revert to what they know. The closest normal military operation to this is a prison and if they use anything from that model here it will be a disaster.

IMO it would be best to use a civilian humanitarian group used to dealing with refugees. Iím guessing the Trump administration wonít do that because they want to keep the press away.
This is actually false - the US military is trained to be cautious around civilians (at least when on the ground - use of armed drones and the like is still dicey at best in this regard), due in part to the fact that you don't want to occupy a country of enraged civilians, and shooting innocent people is very poor PR.

This simple logic is lost on many police forces, oddly.
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Old 28th June 2018, 09:14 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Iím always skeptical about giving the military a mission where there isnít a clear military objective. The US military is not good at dealing with civilian populations to begin with (US troops are highly conditioned to treat everyone as a potential threat, which fails utterly when the job requires winning the trust of a civilian population.) and the chances that when you give the military a mission they will revert to what they know. The closest normal military operation to this is a prison and if they use anything from that model here it will be a disaster.

IMO it would be best to use a civilian humanitarian group used to dealing with refugees. Iím guessing the Trump administration wonít do that because they want to keep the press away.
That's an entirely debatable claim.

The escalation of force protocol is what strikes me as important. I'll join mumbles in saying what I wouldn't give if our police conducted themselves with the kind of discipline and professionalism as our military.

It's often said that many police "act like they think they are in the military" when nothing could be further from the truth. More like some of them couldn't hack it. Especially the personal restraint and resolve under tense circumstances part.

That said, I do not like the military deploying on domestic soil for domestic issues. Trump is banging the law and order drum, but using military forces...that's always an ominous pivot.

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Old 28th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #112
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You remember the way that Trump shakes hands in order to put his "opponent" off-balance? Shadenfreude:

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Old 28th June 2018, 12:54 PM   #113
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you adopted a UK NHS style of universal coverage it would half the GDP you spend on healthcare. (Not saying the USA should adopt a UK NHS style, just using it as an example of a NHS.)
Face it, the NHS even costs less in taxes than the US system - see my signature
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:33 PM   #114
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That's an entirely debatable claim.

pivot.

I will go further and say the person making that claim really does not know much about how the US Army works.
BTW,the Regular US Military forces help out in natural disaster situations quite a bit.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:34 PM   #115
dudalb
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Face it, the NHS even costs less in taxes than the US system - see my signature
I totally agree, but the problem is that many in the GOP don't want UHC of ANY kind..it goes against their "The free Market will solve all problems" ideology.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 28th June 2018, 01:39 PM   #116
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

"

"...home addresses Ė putting these selfless public servants in harmís way. These radical protesters want ANARCHY Ė but the only response they will find from our government is LAW AND ORDER!"
That last sentence is truly frightening...It exactly like something Der Fuehrer would have said.
I think harassment of those officials is not a good idea..it might backfire with moderates.....but that does not justify Trump's rhetoric.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 28th June 2018, 01:44 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You remember the way that Trump shakes hands in order to put his "opponent" off-balance? Shadenfreude:

https://i.imgur.com/2ynFWDE.gif
Who is that?
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:54 PM   #118
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Who is that?
Someone who has seen Trump pull the trick before.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:59 PM   #119
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You remember the way that Trump shakes hands in order to put his "opponent" off-balance? Shadenfreude:

https://i.imgur.com/2ynFWDE.gif
I love it!
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"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:00 PM   #120
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Someone who has seen Trump pull the trick before.
And memories of how the hit on Luca Brasi in "The Godfather" come to mind....
Trump ad Bruno Tattaglia...
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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