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Old 2nd July 2018, 07:56 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Yeah, 400 m. Don't know how that k snuck in there.
Yeah, the most interesting part is that they were in the overall chamber they suspected they'd gotten to, but not on the oft-repeated "Pattaya Beach", which was under water. I'm going to imagine there were some heavy concerns when they got there and found it submerged. No one relayed that word back to the public - I'm glad to say.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 08:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by New York Times
One serious concern is the possibility that the boys could be at risk for decompression sickness, or the bends, if the air they have been breathing in the cave has been under pressure from the rising water.

In that case, the best solution, Dr. Eric Lavonas (an emergency physician and trained diving medicine specialist from Denver Health Medical Center and a spokesman for the American College of Emergency Physicians) said, “would be to bring a portable hyperbaric chamber to the mountainside by helicopter, or to place the children on oxygen and move them quickly to a hyperbaric chamber.”
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/0...s-rescued.html
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Old 2nd July 2018, 08:30 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Struggling to see that causing the bends tbf.

The bit where they are is pretty roomy comparatively from the photos

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz
Sorry but this seems like a consultant with a white board discussion. Divers have been going in and out, including into those mysterious over-pressurized sections for over a week. There are NO decompression units at the cave entrances presently. How are those divers surviving?
Breathing pressurized air causes elevated levels of gasses being absorbed into the blood and tissues. The concern is nitrogen. The important factors would be what is the pressure and what is the duration of exposure.

If the section that the boys are in is meaningfully pressurized then there would be concerns. Obviously they would have been exposed to that for much longer than the rescuers and the compressed nitrogen in their bloodstream might be at maximum.

The problem would be from lengthy exposure and then a sudden rescue. The nitrogen could come out of solution creating microbubbles with some possibly lodging in the blood vessels. It's serious and the rescuers and doctors are not going to ignore it unless they determine that it isn't a factor.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 08:34 PM   #44
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My wife has been following the story for a while. She is not going to let me take her to that cave for exploring the next time we visit family there.

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Old 2nd July 2018, 08:43 PM   #45
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Boys 'could be in cave for months'

Originally Posted by BBC News
Twelve boys and their football coach trapped in a Thai cave have been found alive but will need learn to dive or wait months for flooding to recede before they can get out, the army says...

Attempts to pump the water levels lower have so far not been successful.

If they are to wait until the water recedes by itself, it would mean the boys will have to stay in the cave for months and have to be continuously supplied with food and assistance...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Boys 'could be in cave for months'...

Somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

But if it's really true, then teach them all to dive. They've got the most cave diving expertise ever assembled at hand to instruct them, which they'll continue to need for as long as any of them are in there. And they have plenty of motivation.

Food, dry clothes and bedding first though. And some kind of container system for sanitary needs. And some new phones, and a hotspot with a six-kilometer waterproof fiber optic connection. Meanwhile, get someone working on custom slim-line diving rigs for the younger ones.

This is clearly the origin story for the future Skinny Thai Teen Elite Cave Diving Rescue and Football Corps. Can't fight destiny.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:24 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

But if it's really true, then teach them all to dive. They've got the most cave diving expertise ever assembled at hand to instruct them, which they'll continue to need for as long as any of them are in there. And they have plenty of motivation.

Food, dry clothes and bedding first though. And some kind of container system for sanitary needs. And some new phones, and a hotspot with a six-kilometer waterproof fiber optic connection. Meanwhile, get someone working on custom slim-line diving rigs for the younger ones.

This is clearly the origin story for the future Skinny Thai Teen Elite Cave Diving Rescue and Football Corps. Can't fight destiny.
If they are in there for months they will probably be able to walk out
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If they are in there for months they will probably be able to walk out
Yeah, around Dec. 15. If you check local prognosticators and weather history you'll read "the heaviest rains are in May, June, July, August, September and October.

The rainy season just ends one day in November, sometimes early December and we go from 200/400 mm a month down to 10. Until, then, though, it'll be raining a minimum of four days a week, sometimes seven of seven.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:35 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

But if it's really true, then teach them all to dive. They've got the most cave diving expertise ever assembled at hand to instruct them, which they'll continue to need for as long as any of them are in there. And they have plenty of motivation.

Food, dry clothes and bedding first though. And some kind of container system for sanitary needs. And some new phones, and a hotspot with a six-kilometer waterproof fiber optic connection. Meanwhile, get someone working on custom slim-line diving rigs for the younger ones.

This is clearly the origin story for the future Skinny Thai Teen Elite Cave Diving Rescue and Football Corps. Can't fight destiny.
I haven't read that they've got any doctors in but I'm sure they're being examined by camera/phone. They've been giving them electrolytes, one assumes in beverages, and some food gels like the guys in marathons and the Tour de France take on. They haven't had solid food in nine days so they need to reintroduce it gradually.

A sidebar comment from a reporter up north was that they want to get lights and comfort in there so they don't feel like prisoners. It sounds like they may be there for a few days. If we recall other such long-term rescues, like trapped miners, those people are usually laid up for three or four days in hospital with i.v. drips and regulated nourishment and exercise. They've got 13 young healthy people who are probably going to recover quickly, but I wouldn't think they'll be rushing them out.

It has to be emphasized that that was/is an arduous swim for some of the most experienced divers in the world.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If they are in there for months they will probably be able to walk out

I think what Myriad is saying is that if those kids are stuck all day every day with expert divers for company, then...maybe they'll learn how to dive pretty well. Long before they'd be able to walk out. They have lots of murky water to practice with.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:44 PM   #51
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At the end of the day it all comes down to how safe the bit where they are is.

If there is any danger that they may drown where they are they will have no choice but to get them out any way possible, or a safer place further out of the cave with as little dangerous ways of getting there if there is one

If it is safe where they are then time is on their side and they can cruise for a bit to work it out.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:47 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I think what Myriad is saying is that if those kids are stuck all day every day with expert divers for company, then...maybe they'll learn how to dive pretty well. Long before they'd be able to walk out. They have lots of murky water to practice with.
Even with practice time they will be avoiding the swimming way if poss

It isn't going to be murky going out. It would be pitch black, with tight spaces in bits.

A kids respirator falls out and good luck trying to find it for the panicking kid in that environment before she is too late
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Old 2nd July 2018, 09:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I haven't read that they've got any doctors in but I'm sure they're being examined by camera/phone.

From the link I posted a little earlier:

Quote:
1.20am Tuesday, Dr. Pak Lohanchun gets to the group inside the cave. He is a fully qualified doctor who has aslo trained with the Army, Navy and Air Force and is currently a Navy SEAL. Reports say he asked the boys how they survived, and they replied that they tried to stay put and waited for clean water to fall from the ceiling.
...
At 5.25am Tuesday, reports from the cave confirmed that a Thai Navy SEAL medical team had reached the trapped 13. The team included a rehabilitation nurse, a doctor and nine other qualified Navy SEALS. Another 27 rescue team members are on their way to the boys too, and are working out a system to send supplies.

Further items repeat "the army's" statement that it could take months before they can get out, that none of them know how to swim, and that trying to move them while the flood water remains would be very dangerous. Water levels are rising again, but they expect the rescuers to get through with supplies.

And they are indeed working on installing phone cable through the cave.

My silly tube idea is starting to sound less silly. Though still not practical, unless something meeting the necessary specs happens to be available off the shelf.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:00 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I haven't read that they've got any doctors in but I'm sure they're being examined by camera/phone. They've been giving them electrolytes, one assumes in beverages, and some food gels like the guys in marathons and the Tour de France take on. They haven't had solid food in nine days so they need to reintroduce it gradually.
....

I wonder if standard commercial baby food could be used for the purpose. No preparation required, easy to digest.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
From the link I posted a little earlier:




Further items repeat "the army's" statement that it could take months before they can get out, that none of them know how to swim, and that trying to move them while the flood water remains would be very dangerous. Water levels are rising again, but they expect the rescuers to get through with supplies.

And they are indeed working on installing phone cable through the cave.

My silly tube idea is starting to sound less silly. Though still not practical, unless something meeting the necessary specs happens to be available off the shelf.
Yeah, I caught up to your link only AFTER I'd posted. The local news here is filled with anything the provincial chief says and comments along the "hopes and prayers" lines you get in the USA in an emergency, if uttered by our Dear Leader.

They are most definitely NOT in a hurry. The kids are safe and apparently not too much the worse for wear, and they have repeatedly (both from the Seals and the provincial authorities) emphasized how hard it would be to swim them out. I don't think they've made a final decision but they're preparing everyone to hear that it'll be a while.
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
From the link I posted a little earlier:




Further items repeat "the army's" statement that it could take months before they can get out, that none of them know how to swim, and that trying to move them while the flood water remains would be very dangerous. Water levels are rising again, but they expect the rescuers to get through with supplies.

And they are indeed working on installing phone cable through the cave.

My silly tube idea is starting to sound less silly. Though still not practical, unless something meeting the necessary specs happens to be available off the shelf.
It would have to be extremely flexible to fit through tight gaps and curves while also not get ripped to bits by sharp rock edges etc
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:15 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
A detailed timeline (with ongoing live updates) is here.

The team was found 400 km 400m past a chamber called "Pattaya Beach" which is about 5 km from the entrance, so 3 to 3.25 miles is about right. It appears that there are several flooded sections of approximately 10m long each between the entrance and the "3rd chamber" about 3 km in which is a major interior rescue staging area. One of those flooded sections is very narrow, requiring divers to dismount their SCUBA tank to pass through. Some (rough hand-drawn) maps appear to show a longer flooded section between the 3rd chamber and Pattaya Beach. It appears to have taken rescuers about a day and a half, after reaching the 3rd chamber on Sunday, to work their way past that section and find the group.

An update from Friday that two rescue workers had been electrocuted by flooded equipment turned out, fortunately, to have been exaggerated. (In common usage "electrocuted" often just means non-fatally shocked; add translation issues across languages and it's easy to see how such a report could be mistaken.) If in the end there are NO fatalities among so many people involved in such dangerous operations in sketchy conditions I will be extremely impressed. The world press hasn't really noticed yet but there's been some extraordinarily good coordination and communication going on.

How many instructor-level cave divers are there in the world? It appears most of them are on the scene there.


That post has answered many of the questions I have been thinking about.

If the tunnel to where they are from the previous space is so narrow, I wonder how they decided to go through it, did they know the layout of the caves, and did they have to crawl through?
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:16 PM   #58
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Just heard an interview with one of the divers who found them saying if it comes to it (big storm coming) they have a couple of volunteer experts who are going to stay down with enough supplies for 2 or 3 months
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Old 2nd July 2018, 10:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
That post has answered many of the questions I have been thinking about.

If the tunnel to where they are from the previous space is so narrow, I wonder how they decided to go through it, did they know the layout of the caves, and did they have to crawl through?
Probably didn't have much choice if it was filling with water
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Old 2nd July 2018, 11:56 PM   #60
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Just curious and haven't seen it covered elsewhere: Is the coach considered foolhardy and reckless for taking the boys into a cave that frequently floods (apparently for months at a time)? Were there posted warning signs?

I have to admit, this is a fascinating story; hope it turns out well for everybody.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:01 AM   #61
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How far underground are they? I mean vertically? Trapped miners have been rescued in the past by drilling a shaft in from above. Is anyone considering doing that with these kids? If they have to wait for 4 months for the rains to subside before attempting rescue in the normal way, then maybe it's worth trying to bore a shaft instead.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:48 AM   #62
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I read that the terrain topside is very much against getting that sort of equipment in, and the geological surveys aren't of the sort of detail that would be needed. These are natural caves, not mines. But it could be something they're considering as a more long term project if it comes down to it.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:25 AM   #63
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Hoping that everything turns out all right, this is going to be the story of the century.

What an incredible movie it will make.! Unless, of course, Hollywood gets its hands on it and insists on making it an ethnically- and gender-diverse cast. And the coach being played by Sandra Bullock.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:20 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just curious and haven't seen it covered elsewhere: Is the coach considered foolhardy and reckless for taking the boys into a cave that frequently floods (apparently for months at a time)? Were there posted warning signs?
From what I've heard (Thai reports), the kids had hiked that cave before and the rains came early. So I'm going to say no to the foolhardy for now.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:23 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just curious and haven't seen it covered elsewhere: Is the coach considered foolhardy and reckless for taking the boys into a cave that frequently floods (apparently for months at a time)? Were there posted warning signs?

I have to admit, this is a fascinating story; hope it turns out well for everybody.
I hope not.

Millions of kids go with their teams on van rides, or bus rides, and those are far more statistically dangerous than a bike tour.

PRO TIP: All these kids could be rich by the time this is done, they simply set up some live cams, and charge 9.99/month for live cam access. 2 or 3 months until rescue, easily a million subscribers the first month. Kids get out, pay for the rescue, and split the leftover money.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:25 AM   #66
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I doubt the kids are starving, depending on how deep and cold the cave is at that location, there were probably insects to nibble on. Hungry, yes, starving, doubtful.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:47 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just curious and haven't seen it covered elsewhere: Is the coach considered foolhardy and reckless for taking the boys into a cave that frequently floods (apparently for months at a time)? Were there posted warning signs?

I have to admit, this is a fascinating story; hope it turns out well for everybody.
This team has been inside this cave before.

There is a warning sign inside (some distance from the entrance) stating that it is dangerous to pass this point during the rainy season because sections beyond become flooded. They walked right past the sign. When they entered the cave it wasn't raining but then a heavy downpour began while they were inside.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:52 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How far underground are they? I mean vertically? Trapped miners have been rescued in the past by drilling a shaft in from above. Is anyone considering doing that with these kids? If they have to wait for 4 months for the rains to subside before attempting rescue in the normal way, then maybe it's worth trying to bore a shaft instead.
The mountain is steep and rugged and would be difficult to establish a vertical drilling setup.

CNN: somewhere between 800 meters to one kilometer (0.6 miles) below the surface," said Bill Whitehouse, vice chairman, British Cave Rescue Council, whose organization has helped spearhead the search of the Tham Luang Nang Non cave system in northern Thailand. "They (the group) are also located in a relatively small space and this would make any potential drilling attempt as a means of rescue very difficult," added Whitehouse.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:53 AM   #69
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Quote:
Technical cave diver Edd Sorenson says, "There are a lot of factors coming into play - how far, how long a distance do they (rescuers) need to go in a completely submerged cave to get them (boys) out, if it's a short distance, it's possible to get them out in scuba (gear), but that becomes very dangerous very risky for an untrained personnel in a zero-visibility high flow system like that. So, taking them other medical supplies, food, water, things to keep them warm and waiting it out (for the end of floods) obviously is the safest and the most possible. Getting them out in scuba with no training becomes very risky, very dangerous".
Video update with several experts commenting
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CfZOS_1530618600
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:55 AM   #70
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Cave diving is literally one of the most dangerous activities you can engage in. Training a bunch of scared kids to do it in lets be generous here and call it "less than ideal conditions" does not strike me as a scenario that's going to end in bunnies and rainbows.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 05:58 AM   #71
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If you watch the video I posted, the expert cave diver basically says the safest route is to feed and shelter in place until the water recedes.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 06:12 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If you watch the video I posted, the expert cave diver basically says the safest route is to feed and shelter in place until the water recedes.
Which pre-supposes that the water doesn't rise to fill the cavern they're trapped in.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 06:13 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I read that the terrain topside is very much against getting that sort of equipment in, and the geological surveys aren't of the sort of detail that would be needed. These are natural caves, not mines. But it could be something they're considering as a more long term project if it comes down to it.
If they are in a pressurized pocket (a concern mentioned earlier), drilling a hole to them could be disastrous. It would release the pressure, and the pocket might fill up with water really quick. Same problem has been encountered when rescuing people trapped in capsized ships.

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Old 3rd July 2018, 07:12 AM   #74
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Heavy rains are expected over the next few days. The pump-out continues around the clock but it is not productive. Even when it isn't raining the pumps just don't drop the water level in any meaningful way.

If the water rises significantly there is the possibility that they will all die including any rescuers or doctors who are staying there.

It's said that at a certain point of increased water level the rescuers will no longer be able to get to the boys nor would they be able to rescue themselves from where the boys are located.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 07:31 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Heavy rains are expected over the next few days. The pump-out continues around the clock but it is not productive. Even when it isn't raining the pumps just don't drop the water level in any meaningful way.

If the water rises significantly there is the possibility that they will all die including any rescuers or doctors who are staying there.

It's said that at a certain point of increased water level the rescuers will no longer be able to get to the boys nor would they be able to rescue themselves from where the boys are located.

That explains why there's been talk of rescuers staying at the location indefinitely, and of bringing in several months supply of food and water immediately. Rather than just planning for regularly scheduled future deliveries.

Overall, there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern about the possibility of the water flooding the refuge area of the cave. (Someone needs to name that chamber so we can stop saying things like "the part of the cave the boys are in."!) Those who now know the topography of the cave very well can probably assess that risk with some confidence, even if not outright certainty.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:38 AM   #76
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A vertical shaft is risky. It may awaken a balrog.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:22 AM   #77
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Another issue with drilling an access shaft is that a road would first need to be built to any drilling site. And from the looks of the terrain there, that's not just a matter of bulldozing a route through the forest; it could be filling in or bridging over gullies and cutting away inclines every twenty meters.

I'm sure they're considering it. Work might even be underway. Many photos and videos of the area from the past two days have shown crowds of workers moving earth with shovels in the background. It looks like they're at least working to improve the access to the cave entrance.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:25 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I doubt the kids are starving, depending on how deep and cold the cave is at that location, there were probably insects to nibble on. Hungry, yes, starving, doubtful.


Good grief! Of course they were starving. They looked like stick people.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:40 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
If they are in a pressurized pocket (a concern mentioned earlier), drilling a hole to them could be disastrous. It would release the pressure, and the pocket might fill up with water really quick. Same problem has been encountered when rescuing people trapped in capsized ships.

Hans
If they are in a pressurized pocket, running out of oxygen could be a concern depending on the volume. I suppose they could run a long hose into the cave to supply oxygen or fresh air if it came to that. Also, if they are a kilometer deep, I wonder if it wouldn't take longer to bore a shaft than to wait for the water to subside.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 10:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Good grief! Of course they were starving. They looked like stick people.

Nobody starves in nine days, especially as they had some food with them to start with.
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