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Old 3rd July 2018, 10:18 AM   #81
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Latest report from the NYT. It sounds like the kids were found almost by pure chance:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/w...ccer-team.html
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Old 3rd July 2018, 10:44 AM   #82
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The coach should bail. He probably knows how to swim and four months in a cave? He didn't sign up for that.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:07 AM   #83
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I hope they can at least move them somewhere high and dry with more space. I can't imagine all of them plus rescuers and supplies living for months on that small ledge.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:10 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
The coach should bail. He probably knows how to swim and four months in a cave? He didn't sign up for that.
He probably by now sees himself as a surrogate dad to his team. I doubt he'd run. He would also face public contempt for the rest of his life for "abandoning" them; some people are already blaming him for leading them into danger in the first place.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:16 AM   #85
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Another new report:
Quote:
Water in the cave is about knee-deep, but itís neck-deep in the chamber. Seven SEAL divers are still in the cave and will take about six hours to travel back to base camp, Narongsak said.
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2...his-afternoon/

If it takes the SEALs six hours to get out of the cave themselves, it sounds like a mini-SCUBA course for the kids is out of the question.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:26 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Another new report:

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2...his-afternoon/

If it takes the SEALs six hours to get out of the cave themselves, it sounds like a mini-SCUBA course for the kids is out of the question.
How much of that six hours is actual swimming? I'm under the impression that getting to where they are involved a lot of walking and climbing, with a few sections of swimming.

ETA: Also keep in mind that these are not U.S. Navy SEALs. This is the Thai Navy. The U.S. Air Force is assisting with rescue people, but the SEALs they are talking about are the Thai Navy analogue of the U.S. Navy version. For whatever that is worth.

Last edited by crescent; 3rd July 2018 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:46 AM   #87
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The Guardian had this quote, which may explain why the boys were there.

Quote:
Raymenants said the boys had made their way though the tunnel as part of a local initiation rite.

They had no food. They left their backpacks and their shoes before wading in there, trying to go the end of the tunnel like an initiation for local young boys to go to the end of the tunnel and write your name on the wall and then make it back.

A flash flood because of sudden heavy rain locked them in, with no shoes and no food. They had just one flash light which obviously ran out
.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:10 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Good grief! Of course they were starving. They looked like stick people.
This link includes a picture of the team before they were trapped. They're obviously not bodybuilders. Even with zero food, I don't know if you can lose a tremendous amount of weight in 10 days.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...military-warns

Last edited by Bob001; 3rd July 2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:15 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nobody starves in nine days, especially as they had some food with them to start with.
"Starving" not starved to death.

Where do you draw the line for your definition? If you are alive you didn't starve?

Drowned has the same problem. If we have a near-drowning victim in the hospital, the diagnosis is actually "drowned" even though the person is still alive.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:21 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This link includes a picture of the team before they were trapped. They're obviously not bodybuilders. Even with zero food, I don't know if you can lose a tremendous amount of weight in 10 days.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...military-warns
You start to lose muscle mass. One of the articles mentioned they had lost muscle mass.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 12:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
How much of that six hours is actual swimming? I'm under the impression that getting to where they are involved a lot of walking and climbing, with a few sections of swimming.
I had imagined it like you....a cave system with some areas of still water to get through which are sometimes narrow. But that's not really how it is. It's much more difficult.

Ben Raymenats, The same on-site expert cave diver that I quoted in my post above said this about it: (from The Guardian)

Quote:
This is one of the more extreme cave dives that I have done. It is very far, and very complex. There is current. The visibility can be zero at times. So getting boys through there one by one, and the risk that they will panic is there. They canít even swim. This has been done before with pulling people out of wrecks alive. So it is not impossible, but the issue is the restrictions - just one person can fit through. So guiding a boy through in front of you could be quite challenging, especially if the rain picks up and thereís a strong flow and the visibility reduces to zero. When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it.

It took us four hours just to swim to the point where we had to tie off the lines. It is really long swim. So it is really hard to give an opinion on what is the best solution.

I think the weather is going to be the deciding factor.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 01:49 PM   #92
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I liked this thread better with the original title.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 02:06 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
How much of that six hours is actual swimming? I'm under the impression that getting to where they are involved a lot of walking and climbing, with a few sections of swimming.

ETA: Also keep in mind that these are not U.S. Navy SEALs. This is the Thai Navy. The U.S. Air Force is assisting with rescue people, but the SEALs they are talking about are the Thai Navy analogue of the U.S. Navy version. For whatever that is worth.
Why would anyone think otherwise? The point is that they are from an elite military unit that trains especially for underwater operations. I'm willing to bet they know what they're doing.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 02:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why would anyone think otherwise? The point is that they are from an elite military unit that trains especially for underwater operations. I'm willing to bet they know what they're doing.
Indeed. And Wiki says they train with the USN Seals.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:34 PM   #95
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The boys look slender and lightweight. It could be possible to strap them on the back of a diver, one by one, and get them out that way? (Complete with breathing apparatus.)
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Old 3rd July 2018, 04:37 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The boys look slender and lightweight. It could be possible to strap them on the back of a diver, one by one, and get them out that way? (Complete with breathing apparatus.)
There is hardly enough room in places for one person, let alone one with a kid strapped to their back and a tank

They also would'nt be able to tell if the kid was still breathing ok
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Old 3rd July 2018, 08:42 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That explains why there's been talk of rescuers staying at the location indefinitely, and of bringing in several months supply of food and water immediately. Rather than just planning for regularly scheduled future deliveries.

Overall, there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern about the possibility of the water flooding the refuge area of the cave. (Someone needs to name that chamber so we can stop saying things like "the part of the cave the boys are in."!) Those who now know the topography of the cave very well can probably assess that risk with some confidence, even if not outright certainty.

Nern Nam Sao Slope
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The boys look slender and lightweight. It could be possible to strap them on the back of a diver, one by one, and get them out that way? (Complete with breathing apparatus.)
Sort of. From the latest reports I have read, they are trying to get the water as low as possible first and take them out like they do the supplies- guiding them like a package. Each boy would gets a full face mask with 2 way communication, a buoyancy regulator, a small air tank, and would be somewhat confined to avoid flailing arms or legs. Some of the trip they'd be floated along on top of the water and some areas they could walk. A lot of it would still be underwater though. At the last part they'd hike up to the entrance.

It rains every day this week but only about .25 inches. Heavier rains arrive Sunday. To get them out one by one they'd need to start soon with what looks to be a 40+ hour extraction process.

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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:24 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Sort of. From the latest reports I have read, they are trying to get the water as low as possible first and take them out like they do the supplies- guiding them like a package. Each boy would gets a full face mask with 2 way communication, a buoyancy regulator, a small air tank, and would be somewhat confined to avoid flailing arms or legs. Some of the trip they'd be floated along on top of the water and some areas they could walk. A lot of it would still be underwater though. At the last part they'd hike up to the entrance.

It rains every day this week but only about .25 inches. Heavier rains arrive Sunday. To get them out one by one they'd need to start soon with what looks to be a 40+ hour extraction process.
If they do do that I'd start with a couple of runs with the fittest couple to get it right and work out the issues

Then take them weakest first in case the get forced to stop, leaving the more stronger ones if there is a long wait.

Don't just mean physically. Mentally strong as well

But I'm no expert so that all could be pants
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:35 PM   #100
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Thai authorities are already trying to figure out how they can make money out of this incident.

Quote:
The Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) plans to promote Tham Luang cave in Chiang Rai as a key attraction after days in the spotlight, with the missing football team of 13 being found alive Monday night.
https://m.bangkokpost.com/news/gener...ist-attraction

Stay classy, Thailand.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:36 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There is hardly enough room in places for one person, let alone one with a kid strapped to their back and a tank

They also would'nt be able to tell if the kid was still breathing ok
This is correct and is the greatest concern. This is not snorkeling in Tortola. It's cave diving in zero visibility moving water. One of the physics geeks can explain better, but if the rains recommence the runoff moving through those channels gets all the more turbulent. If you followed the earlier coverage, they had a big delay at a pinch point that the seals had to widen to be able to get even a single diver through with his gear. That point is the same as it was. It will be single file through there. The kids being held onto by the pros will be on their own at a depth of 5m for about 15m of solo swim.... in murky water, with jagged irregular rocks for neighbors and through a moving current.

None of the stranded is in any condition to make that swim, right now. They will be alone, clipped onto a rope (two, actually) no doubt, but the passage is tricky and the main concern is them busting up or separating from their equipment.

Here's what they face:
>400 m dive from Nern Noem Sao Slope to "Pattaya Beach". This will be a buddy swim with a seal or two. There will be Seals at Pattaya Beach which is mostly submerged but like a bit of a sand bar where they ready themselves for
> 150 m dive similar to the first when they arrive to a lot of Seals waiting, they then
> Hike/Climb/Crawl over 400 m all currently above the water levels and then they get to the hinky part
> 15 m solo dive at 5 m depth to get around the pinch point and upon completion there's no dry land they still have
> 1 km accompanied by Seal divers until they reach the "ground camp" the Seals have set up at about the 2 km mark from the entrance. Rest and recuperate there for the final
> 2 km to the entrance


The rains? That area averages 300 mm of rain in July. In the last 7 days they've had 40 mm, suggesting that mathematically we're expecting an average of 10 mm a day from today (but it goes up in August so the end of the month could be heavier). They seem to be able to handle, with pumping, the 40 mm over the past week. The levels have gone down in the internal chambers. The problem is that that 40 mm is only 5.75 mm a day and we don't know how they'll handle 10mm/day. And it's an average. We've had no rain in the area in the last 3 days. That'd suggest that a downpour is possible and that's what the General in charge is worried about. There current plan is "train 'em up as long as they're safe and the water's not rising". But if the water level becomes a threat, they are prepared to SWAT Team 'em out. I don't know the technical problems but they say that widening that pinch point is not possible. I'd imagine they're re-examining that option, though. If they have to move before the kids are ready, that swim becomes treacherous and they'll need to be pulling them through on ropes, a real worrisome proposition.

They have tanks at strategic points - some of them "land" but I'm going to imagine that in the long swim after their solo efforts there are going to be tanks under water as there are no beachheads that I've heard mentioned.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:44 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Thai authorities are already trying to figure out how they can make money out of this incident.



https://m.bangkokpost.com/news/gener...ist-attraction

Stay classy, Thailand.
Oh, there's all kinds of cute **** going on in the background. The provincial governor has been declared a national hero by the generals running the country. Ah, but.... we're getting ready for an election (soon, any time now, no this time we mean it) and the governor is, well, a northerner and sympatico with/to the red shirts (the progressives). So what do we do? Promote the governor to governorship of a province where he'll get no support - and a smaller province at that! But what about the public? Simple, we'll claim that he's needed to head-up the rescue effort so he'll be on the ground until its over and we'll all go up and wai (bow) to him and give him big face and the stupid farmers can go back to work.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 09:51 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nern Nam Sao Slope

Interesting. This name doesn't appear to have been rendered in English anywhere on the Internet yet, except in your post (and now, in this one quoting it, and in your newer post with a slightly different spelling). Does the name mean or refer to anything?
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Old 3rd July 2018, 10:30 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Oh, there's all kinds of cute **** going on in the background. The provincial governor has been declared a national hero by the generals running the country. Ah, but.... we're getting ready for an election (soon, any time now, no this time we mean it) and the governor is, well, a northerner and sympatico with/to the red shirts (the progressives). So what do we do? Promote the governor to governorship of a province where he'll get no support - and a smaller province at that! But what about the public? Simple, we'll claim that he's needed to head-up the rescue effort so he'll be on the ground until its over and we'll all go up and wai (bow) to him and give him big face and the stupid farmers can go back to work.
One of the other divers claimed that the Thai team was upset with the British team for forging ahead when they were supposed to wait at Pattaya Beach. It was planned that a Thai SEAL and medic were supposed to make the discovery (not knowing what would be found and wanting it to be clear to all that it was a Thai-led operation).

The next day, the British divers were delayed by officials to determine if they had all the proper paperwork done.
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Old 3rd July 2018, 11:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Interesting. This name doesn't appear to have been rendered in English anywhere on the Internet yet, except in your post (and now, in this one quoting it, and in your newer post with a slightly different spelling). Does the name mean or refer to anything?
We spell things in English with a dose of whimsy. I've seen four spellings in English but can't read Thai, even if I find a Thai label for it. I know no word close to "Nern" or "Nerm". And now I can't find the "Nerm" spelling so that may be my error. Noem Sao or Nom Sao is, I'm guessing, tribute to another famous beach. I'm basing that on the previous landfall being named "Pattaya Beach". Most cavers are tourists so naming landfall in the caves after beaches seems possible.


But names and labels in English here can be whimsical. Our house is on, depending on the map or sign you're reading:

Chaiyapruk Road
Chaeapruk Road
Chaiyapruek Road
Chaiyaphruek Road
Chaiya Phruek (the official district sign says that)

ETA: Thai is tonal. We spell the currency "Baht". That connotes the "ah" sound which is accurate, but my Thai textbook spelled it according to some egghead who uses a double-a, e.g. "Baat". And the Thais are very malleable so when I ask them how to properly pronounce "Pattaya" each person answers with whatever pronunciation they've picked up from their English buddies.

My wife just came home and I gave her my best idea at the pronunciation and she says it makes no sense. It may be my pronunciation or it could be Thais being Thais. I remember asking her how to say Pattaya Beach in Thai a few days ago and she responded "Pattaya Beach". No one ever heard of it until the foreigners started frequenting the place and if we're all rich and successful, why that pronunciation is fine.

I found a map of the area in the Bangkok Post.They are Thai owned and if there's anything close to the official western spelling it would be theirs, I guess. Nern Noem Sao Slope


If I ever figure out what it means, I'll post here.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:41 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
One of the other divers claimed that the Thai team was upset with the British team for forging ahead when they were supposed to wait at Pattaya Beach. It was planned that a Thai SEAL and medic were supposed to make the discovery (not knowing what would be found and wanting it to be clear to all that it was a Thai-led operation).

The next day, the British divers were delayed by officials to determine if they had all the proper paperwork done.
Source? It is pretty petty if true.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:53 AM   #107
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Look up what happened at the end of the serum run to Nome in the 1920s. That's the dog sled relay that delivered the diphtheria serum to the Alaskan town cut off by winter. The second last musher avoided his handover and did the final leg as well. Although I think it was more about which dog got the glory!

I may not have got this quite right but it was something like that.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:00 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Source? It is pretty petty if true.
Wasn't the first announcement that the kids had been found by the Thai military?

I was in Thailand for the most of this incident (Came back home on they day they were found), and it was quite obvious to me that the Thai authorities were playing up this situation for all its worth, creating heroes and glorifying the military.

I think all the foreign aid was quite the double edged sword for the Thai authorities. On the one hand, look at all these foreign countries rushing in to help Thailand! That shows respect for Thailand and its government. On the other hand, the big effort by the foreigners were overshadowing the awesomeness of the Thai military. And worst of all, British divers found the kids when they were supposed to be found by the Thai SEALS. The bastards!
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:05 AM   #109
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"Lost Boys Cavern"
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:17 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
If the tunnel to where they are from the previous space is so narrow, I wonder how they decided to go through it, did they know the layout of the caves, and did they have to crawl through?
I've been wondering that, as well. Did they take a different but now fully submerged route?

I've only done a couple of scuba diving try-outs in swimming pools, but do a fair bit of snorkelling while on holiday. I'm not particularly claustrophobic, but the very idea of cave-diving scares the absolute crap out of me.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 4th July 2018 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Source? It is pretty petty if true.
I skipped around so many places, or I would have included it (as I usually do) but I found a radio interview where the diver discusses the Thai plans to be first.
I believe he is a Frenchman with a diving business in Thailand that was part of the initial diving team (and still is? idk, but he is still there on-site). Listen to it here.

I recall surprise when I saw the British divers photos because all the reports I had seen up to then talked about Thai SEALS finding them (which is true if you expand the definition of 'find' to be the efforts other than 'first contact').

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Old 4th July 2018, 03:32 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I think all the foreign aid was quite the double edged sword for the Thai authorities. On the one hand, look at all these foreign countries rushing in to help Thailand! That shows respect for Thailand and its government. On the other hand, the big effort by the foreigners were overshadowing the awesomeness of the Thai military. And worst of all, British divers found the kids when they were supposed to be found by the Thai SEALS. The bastards!

That attitude seems to be pretty universal: Hurricane Katrina: US let its citizens die rather than accept Cuban aid (Global Research, Mar. 5, 2018)
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:38 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I've been wondering that, as well. Did they take a different but now fully submerged route?

I've only done a couple of scuba diving try-outs in swimming pools, but do a fair bit of snorkelling while on holiday. I'm not particularly claustrophobic, but the very idea of cave-diving scares the absolute crap out of me.
The caves are well known and explored so they probably (or at least the coach) knew the route, but still seems as if they were ill prepared even for a known cave.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:44 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The caves are well known and explored so they probably (or at least the coach) knew the route, but still seems as if they were ill prepared even for a known cave.
They're Thai-sized... rather small. The particularly hinky passage was too tight to get a diver with tanks on through, not a person. It was widened to accommodate fully-equipped Seals. The footie team likely just walked through single file, just as we do on a hike if the path narrows or winds between a tree and a boulder.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:48 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They're Thai-sized... rather small. The particularly hinky passage was too tight to get a diver with tanks on through, not a person. It was widened to accommodate fully-equipped Seals. The footie team likely just walked through single file, just as we do on a hike if the path narrows or winds between a tree and a boulder.
That makes more sense. I was assuming it was a horizontal rather than a vertical gap, although that would make it more difficult to negotiate in scuba gear, even with detached or side tanks.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:54 AM   #116
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I realise that the seals can't fit through the small gap with a kid but what about a smaller animal such as a otter?
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I realise that the seals can't fit through the small gap with a kid but what about a smaller animal such as a otter?
But they aren't rescuing otters.

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Old 4th July 2018, 04:33 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I realise that the seals can't fit through the small gap with a kid but what about a smaller animal such as a otter?
Are there otters trapped in there, too? Won't someone think of the otters??!!


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Old 4th July 2018, 04:36 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But they aren't rescuing otters.

Dave
And we don't have otters, nor beavers in Thailand. The marine otter is the pacific coast of the Americas and the river otter is from the North American hinterlands. We also don't have seals or pinnipeds. We've got crocodiles and cobras, though. Given a few hundred millennia for them to evolve we could probably train them as Rescue Reptiles.
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:37 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Are there otters trapped in there, too?
These kids went into the cave on porpoise? Can't they get out the same way,
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