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Old 4th July 2018, 04:40 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
These kids went into the cave on porpoise? Can't they get out the same way,
No, they need an otter way out.

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Old 4th July 2018, 04:42 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But they aren't rescuing otters.

Dave
Maybe they should be. It would be easier.

(The joke is that the rescuers are seals,.not the cave boys.)
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:24 AM   #123
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No, there is no otter way out!

ETA Dave Rogers beat me to it.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:25 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We spell things in English with a dose of whimsy. I've seen four spellings in English but can't read Thai, even if I find a Thai label for it. I know no word close to "Nern" or "Nerm". And now I can't find the "Nerm" spelling so that may be my error. Noem Sao or Nom Sao is, I'm guessing, tribute to another famous beach. I'm basing that on the previous landfall being named "Pattaya Beach". Most cavers are tourists so naming landfall in the caves after beaches seems possible.


But names and labels in English here can be whimsical. Our house is on, depending on the map or sign you're reading:

Chaiyapruk Road
Chaeapruk Road
Chaiyapruek Road
Chaiyaphruek Road
Chaiya Phruek (the official district sign says that)

ETA: Thai is tonal. We spell the currency "Baht". That connotes the "ah" sound which is accurate, but my Thai textbook spelled it according to some egghead who uses a double-a, e.g. "Baat". And the Thais are very malleable so when I ask them how to properly pronounce "Pattaya" each person answers with whatever pronunciation they've picked up from their English buddies.

My wife just came home and I gave her my best idea at the pronunciation and she says it makes no sense. It may be my pronunciation or it could be Thais being Thais. I remember asking her how to say Pattaya Beach in Thai a few days ago and she responded "Pattaya Beach". No one ever heard of it until the foreigners started frequenting the place and if we're all rich and successful, why that pronunciation is fine.

I found a map of the area in the Bangkok Post.They are Thai owned and if there's anything close to the official western spelling it would be theirs, I guess. Nern Noem Sao Slope


If I ever figure out what it means, I'll post here.

Thanks for the info! I feel oddly privileged to be one of very few Americans who know this particular bit of trivia, even if I don't know what the name means.

(I thought perhaps the name is a phonetic approximation of something else, so I tried a bunch of searches on names I made up to sound approximately like Nern Nam Sao. No success with that approach.)
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:30 AM   #125
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Meanwhile, my Aqua Teen Hunger Force scenario is looking promising after all. Despite the counter drumbeat of "safety first, could take months" from some officials, it appears the divers in the cave have started teaching the kids how to dive, and they have been obtaining special (though not custom) small-size equipment for it.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:46 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I realise that the seals can't fit through the small gap with a kid but what about a smaller animal such as a otter?
Too soon, dude...
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:49 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And we don't have otters, nor beavers in Thailand.
Maybe you should learn about your animals. The Asian small-clawed otter lives in Thailand and other places in SE Asia.
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Meanwhile, my Aqua Teen Hunger Force scenario is looking promising after all. Despite the counter drumbeat of "safety first, could take months" from some officials, it appears the divers in the cave have started teaching the kids how to dive, and they have been obtaining special (though not custom) small-size equipment for it.
Adult Swim needs to start printing shirts right now.
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Old 4th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This is correct and is the greatest concern. This is not snorkeling in Tortola. It's cave diving in zero visibility moving water. One of the physics geeks can explain better, but if the rains recommence the runoff moving through those channels gets all the more turbulent. If you followed the earlier coverage, they had a big delay at a pinch point that the seals had to widen to be able to get even a single diver through with his gear. That point is the same as it was. It will be single file through there. The kids being held onto by the pros will be on their own at a depth of 5m for about 15m of solo swim.... in murky water, with jagged irregular rocks for neighbors and through a moving current.

None of the stranded is in any condition to make that swim, right now. They will be alone, clipped onto a rope (two, actually) no doubt, but the passage is tricky and the main concern is them busting up or separating from their equipment.

Here's what they face:
>400 m dive from Nern Noem Sao Slope to "Pattaya Beach". This will be a buddy swim with a seal or two. There will be Seals at Pattaya Beach which is mostly submerged but like a bit of a sand bar where they ready themselves for
> 150 m dive similar to the first when they arrive to a lot of Seals waiting, they then
> Hike/Climb/Crawl over 400 m all currently above the water levels and then they get to the hinky part
> 15 m solo dive at 5 m depth to get around the pinch point and upon completion there's no dry land they still have
> 1 km accompanied by Seal divers until they reach the "ground camp" the Seals have set up at about the 2 km mark from the entrance. Rest and recuperate there for the final
> 2 km to the entrance


The rains? That area averages 300 mm of rain in July. In the last 7 days they've had 40 mm, suggesting that mathematically we're expecting an average of 10 mm a day from today (but it goes up in August so the end of the month could be heavier). They seem to be able to handle, with pumping, the 40 mm over the past week. The levels have gone down in the internal chambers. The problem is that that 40 mm is only 5.75 mm a day and we don't know how they'll handle 10mm/day. And it's an average. We've had no rain in the area in the last 3 days. That'd suggest that a downpour is possible and that's what the General in charge is worried about. There current plan is "train 'em up as long as they're safe and the water's not rising". But if the water level becomes a threat, they are prepared to SWAT Team 'em out. I don't know the technical problems but they say that widening that pinch point is not possible. I'd imagine they're re-examining that option, though. If they have to move before the kids are ready, that swim becomes treacherous and they'll need to be pulling them through on ropes, a real worrisome proposition.

They have tanks at strategic points - some of them "land" but I'm going to imagine that in the long swim after their solo efforts there are going to be tanks under water as there are no beachheads that I've heard mentioned.
It is a nightmare: requiring people who have never dived before (some who have never even learned how to swim) to do some of the most difficult and dangerous forms of diving in the world. Certainly full face masks and highly trained SEAL buddies will help, but even imagining myself in their situation begins to bring on shortness of breath.

In some ways the best theoretical approach might be to put the boys in full face masks, stuff them individually in tight protective sacks, attach ropes, and have the SEALs handle them as cargo. Of course this would only make the boys more likely to panic and would prevent visually monitoring them. I presume there are no water proof metal cylinder capsules that can be filled with boy plus air yet small enough to be maneuvered through the hinky parts?

One positive is that there is time for the boys to practice diving from their current chamber under the SEAL's supervision before they have to begin the actual escape. They can be started easy and then subjected to increasingly more difficult experiences: less and less visibility, imposed disorientation, etc.

Even if the ultimate choice is to wait out the rainy season, it makes perfect sense to prepare the boys for an escape swim should the flooding increase or some other emergency arise.

It seems to me that the rescuers and authorities are in a very difficult position from a public opinion point of view: whatever the outcome and despite the enormous difficulty of the rescue, even one boy dying will be viewed as a failure on their part.
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Old 4th July 2018, 08:31 AM   #130
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It seems to me that, if the boys are trapped in the cave for 4 months, they'll need to do something in that time; boys of that age don't idle all that well. Teaching them to swim and how to use diving equipment may be about the only thing there's space and facilities to do, so it may be more valuable as a way to keep them occupied than as a realistic means of rescue. Then, after they've all had a leisurely four-month cave-diving course, they'll notice that the water isn't deep enough to dive in, they'll all walk out, and they'll know that they could have escaped if they'd needed to but as it worked out it wasn't necessary, with generally good long term psychological effects. But maybe that's just me being devious.

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Old 4th July 2018, 08:34 AM   #131
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The humidity in the cave must be very high. I would be surprised if the boys can avoid developing substantial skin and respiratory problems after 4 months.

What is the temperature in the cave?
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Old 4th July 2018, 09:10 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems to me that, if the boys are trapped in the cave for 4 months, they'll need to do something in that time; boys of that age don't idle all that well. Teaching them to swim and how to use diving equipment may be about the only thing there's space and facilities to do, so it may be more valuable as a way to keep them occupied than as a realistic means of rescue. Then, after they've all had a leisurely four-month cave-diving course, they'll notice that the water isn't deep enough to dive in, they'll all walk out, and they'll know that they could have escaped if they'd needed to but as it worked out it wasn't necessary, with generally good long term psychological effects. But maybe that's just me being devious.

Dave

If they can run in a phone cable -- as apparently they are -- they can probably run a power cable and internet connection. If they can do that, they can send in Ipads, Kindles and Playstations. Those kids won't be happy, but they'll be occupied.

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Old 4th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If they can run in a phone cable -- as apparently they are -- they can probably run a power cable and internet connection. If they can do that, they can send in Ipads, Kindles and Playstations. Those kids won't be happy, but they'll be occupied.
Running a relatively low voltage telephone wire a few kilometres through a cave system is one thing. A 220 volt cable is another. Although given the equipment you listed, you could get away with 5, 12, or 19 volts DC, which is typical for consumer electronics.
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:07 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Running a relatively low voltage telephone wire a few kilometres through a cave system is one thing. A 220 volt cable is another. Although given the equipment you listed, you could get away with 5, 12, or 19 volts DC, which is typical for consumer electronics.
If it's a long wait for them, they could just send in some battery packs and a hand-crank charger(s). It would give them a small job that might also have a psychological benefit.

They could also build hammocks into the rock walls like climbers do so they are more comfortable and have more space.

I don't see any news of these long term things being brought in (not much news today at all really) so I think the plan will be to get them out this week. All the news centers around diving masks and diverting/plugging water sources.

(The phone line is important even short term to prepare the kids for the trip out. It will be calming/reassuring for them to hear their parents voices.)
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Old 4th July 2018, 12:35 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
One of the other divers claimed that the Thai team was upset with the British team for forging ahead when they were supposed to wait at Pattaya Beach. It was planned that a Thai SEAL and medic were supposed to make the discovery (not knowing what would be found and wanting it to be clear to all that it was a Thai-led operation).

The next day, the British divers were delayed by officials to determine if they had all the proper paperwork done.
That's a bit odd given the diver that found them was surprised they were there.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:29 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The humidity in the cave must be very high. I would be surprised if the boys can avoid developing substantial skin and respiratory problems after 4 months.

What is the temperature in the cave?
And waste... it must be getting smelly and unhygienic.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #137
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As Thai is spoken in Thailand, did anyone else find it odd the boys spoke English?

Don't you die after three days without water?

Could this be staged?

I'll get my coat.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:33 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't you die after three days without water?
Yes. You can also walk out of a cave that hasn't got any water in it. There's a clue in there somewhere

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Old 4th July 2018, 02:08 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Thai is spoken in Thailand, did anyone else find it odd the boys spoke English?

Don't you die after three days without water?

Could this be staged?

I'll get my coat.
As a native English speaker who has lived overseas, I don't find it odd at all. Everywhere I go, people speak English to me - not just in areas where there are tourists. The kids heard the divers speak English, so they used whatever grammar-school English they knew.

I lived in Nepal for two years, I would go to tiny little villages in the Terai (flat lowlands along the Indian border) or up into the hills of the far west, where there were no promoted trekking routes yet. Kids would come out of the houses and say "Hello, how are you." Few were anywhere close to fluent, but nearly everyone knew a few dozen words and bit of grammar and wanted to practice with the foreigners. They might get no more than one or two native English speakers passing through each year, but they learn a bit in school anyway.

I go to visit my mother-in-law in Neidersachsen, in her tiny little town and try to pass myself off as German. I can sometimes do it until they hear me speak. Then they speak to me in English. Even the Polish side of her family speaks to me in English, which gets confusing because I forget that most of the Poles in that family don't yet speak much German. So the Germans and the Poles speak to each other in English and I have to remind myself that they are not doing it for my benefit.

It would be as if I went to tiny village in the backwoods of Finland and ran into you. Although you seem pretty completely fluent.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:16 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's a bit odd given the diver that found them was surprised they were there.
Not odd at all. If you listen to that interview he implies that the foreign divers were not given all the information the Thai Navy had. The foreigners thought Pattaya Beach was the goal.
So British divers ventured out to an unknown area, and there they were! Surprise!
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Thai is spoken in Thailand, did anyone else find it odd the boys spoke English?

Don't you die after three days without water?

Could this be staged?

I'll get my coat.
You ARE kidding, right?
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:41 PM   #142
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Do we need an official countdown until someone yells "crisis actors?"
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:01 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Could this be staged?
Oh for expletive's sake.

Why? Why on God's green Earth would somebody stage this? What possible purpose, reason, motivation would there be for it?
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:09 PM   #144
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After seeing the map layout of the cave, I'm expecting a "Save the Lost Thai Boys" game app to make its appearance any second now. Heck, I could write it myself!
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:38 PM   #145
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They're 11-16 yrs. old. What child that age wouldn't want to learn (and do) X-treme SCUBA? I say go for it.

They managed to walk themselves into where ever they are now so fitting physically through the small spaces with SCUBA Gear isn't going to be a problem.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:29 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Thai is spoken in Thailand, did anyone else find it odd the boys spoke English?
.
You know they have schools in Thailand. Sometimes in school you go to classes on how to speak other languages. I have been often frustrated when traveling as an English speaker that I can't practice any of my languages because so many people want to practice their English with me.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:39 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
They're 11-16 yrs. old. What child that age wouldn't want to learn (and do) X-treme SCUBA? I say go for it.

They managed to walk themselves into where ever they are now so fitting physically through the small spaces with SCUBA Gear isn't going to be a problem.
That's not what the experts are saying, in addition to the fact that the water is opaque.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.a9df7c2f9c57
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Old 4th July 2018, 06:52 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's not what the experts are saying, in addition to the fact that the water is opaque.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.a9df7c2f9c57
Just a thought - the water being murky may be less of a disadvantage than people think. These kids have never dived before so they have no prior experience to compare it to. They see that the pro's are coming and going with no apparent (to the kids) difficulty so they will just assume that they are learning to do something that these other guys do all the time.
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Old 4th July 2018, 07:15 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Just a thought - the water being murky may be less of a disadvantage than people think. These kids have never dived before so they have no prior experience to compare it to. They see that the pro's are coming and going with no apparent (to the kids) difficulty so they will just assume that they are learning to do something that these other guys do all the time.
Maybe. But it makes it much harder for the divers to monitor the kids, and much easier for the kids to get completely disoriented. Won't be a cakewalk.
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Old 4th July 2018, 07:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Thai is spoken in Thailand, did anyone else find it odd the boys spoke English?

Don't you die after three days without water?

Could this be staged?

I'll get my coat.
Make it one of those coats that has sleeves that tie behind the back, maybe?


English is taught to one degree or another in all schools. These are middle class kids (although Venom thinks they just came from fighting insurgents and human trafficking drug lords in the jungle) and will have been taught English.

Notice that there are a couple of 'em answering coherently? In any town or city in Thailand, if you walk up to a group of 12/15 middle-school students and ask "Do any of you speak English?", the kids will push Nai Pi forward as he's the best in that subject. If I go up-country to my wife's family's homestead, all the kids can say common expressions but there's always a couple or three who can actually converse.

If there's part of the China team in there, someone in Beijing is now asking "Hey, is this fake? How come they answered in Putonghua?" Same reason, but even more so. Not only is Chinese a mandatory subject in grade school,but many Thais are fifth or sixth generation Chinese and just as kids in Canada are going back and learning Celtic culture and language, Thai-Chinese kids are taking to learning their own history/culture.
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Old 4th July 2018, 07:44 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Thanks for the info! I feel oddly privileged to be one of very few Americans who know this particular bit of trivia, even if I don't know what the name means.

(I thought perhaps the name is a phonetic approximation of something else, so I tried a bunch of searches on names I made up to sound approximately like Nern Nam Sao. No success with that approach.)

Here's an article with a map (everyone might like this, actually) with the "Slope" marked.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/gen...y-out-for-boys

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The humidity in the cave must be very high. I would be surprised if the boys can avoid developing substantial skin and respiratory problems after 4 months.

What is the temperature in the cave?
Temperature's been reported in the mid-high teens (Celsius). Not cold but not hot. There are pics of them in thermal blankets, but if they're going to be there a while, I'm betting they bring in, one piece at a time, equipment to cook food and warm the area. It's a long supply chain, but not impossible now that they've got their guide ropes and hand-holds in place. No one's mentioned the humidity, that I've noticed. Assume it's high but humidity in Thailand is 70/90% during the rainy seasons anyway.

Oh, and two of the people who've committed to stay for the duration are a doctor and a nurse who specializes in diving ailments. They can bring in meds, salves, ointments, whatnot....
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Old 4th July 2018, 07:51 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Maybe. But it makes it much harder for the divers to monitor the kids, and much easier for the kids to get completely disoriented. Won't be a cakewalk.
I completely agree, and I did jot mean to diminish the difficulty of the rescue at all. Just that no visibility might not be as big a psychological barrier for the kids as some think. It is still a big issue for the pro divers.
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Old 4th July 2018, 07:55 PM   #153
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Forgive me if already posted, but this is a diagram of the cave tunnel from the UK evening standard

Put it in a spoiler as it is pretty big and will mess up your margins if I didn't

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Old 5th July 2018, 01:15 AM   #154
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Looking at that diagram would it be possible to dig down on the boy's side of the narrow passage to take it our of the equation. That appears a far easier dig than one to end up on top of them. The rest of the trip to that point looks manageable for the divers to accompany the boys along after they have picked up their paddy certificates. (Oh be jesus, put the mouthpiece in your mouth to be sure, to be sure)
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:06 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Looking at that diagram would it be possible to dig down on the boy's side of the narrow passage to take it our of the equation. That appears a far easier dig than one to end up on top of them. The rest of the trip to that point looks manageable for the divers to accompany the boys along after they have picked up their paddy certificates. (Oh be jesus, put the mouthpiece in your mouth to be sure, to be sure)
Think the the problem would be that to drill down they need to get heavy drilling equipment up a heavily vegetated mountain.

Edit: ignore that. You're talking about something different I can't work out
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:27 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Forgive me if already posted, but this is a diagram of the cave tunnel from the UK evening standard

Put it in a spoiler as it is pretty big and will mess up your margins if I didn't

The section where it's too narrow to wear a tank is going to be a problem. I've practiced removing my gear, pushing it through a hula hoop, following it and putting it back on, in a pool of warm, clear water. The boys would have to do that in a cave with near zero visibility. That's a fairly advanced skill.
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:37 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The section where it's too narrow to wear a tank is going to be a problem. I've practiced removing my gear, pushing it through a hula hoop, following it and putting it back on, in a pool of warm, clear water. The boys would have to do that in a cave with near zero visibility. That's a fairly advanced skill.
While crawling through tight twists and turns of not blunt rockface

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Old 5th July 2018, 04:47 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think the the problem would be that to drill down they need to get heavy drilling equipment up a heavily vegetated mountain.

Edit: ignore that. You're talking about something different I can't work out
Sorry I was not clear. On the map you posted there is a section near the entrance where it says "passage is too narrow for the diver to wear oxygen tank" That part does not look to be too deep from the mountain surface cv the 1/2 mile dig if done from above where they are. If, as you say, they can get equipment up the mountain past that point and dig they can take the 'removing the air bottle pinch point' out of the equation.
It would still involve the boys doing diving to get to the dug hole but as I understand they could be accompanied by a diver all the way to that point. No going solo.

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Old 5th July 2018, 04:55 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The section where it's too narrow to wear a tank is going to be a problem. I've practiced removing my gear, pushing it through a hula hoop, following it and putting it back on, in a pool of warm, clear water. The boys would have to do that in a cave with near zero visibility. That's a fairly advanced skill.
They widened that part so the Seals could get through with their equipment on. That won't be the problem. The problem will be that the boys have to go through on their own as it's not wide enough for the diver/boy teams. The kids will be on pushme/pullyou tethers but it's dark, uneven and narrow and they just don't have the skills to cope with that, yet. The concern is that even an experienced diver who knocks his mask or tank off against a jagged outcrop is likely to panic. With the kids it's almost a guarantee.
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:58 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They widened that part so the Seals could get through with their equipment on. That won't be the problem. The problem will be that the boys have to go through on their own as it's not wide enough for the diver/boy teams. The kids will be on pushme/pullyou tethers but it's dark, uneven and narrow and they just don't have the skills to cope with that, yet. The concern is that even an experienced diver who knocks his mask or tank off against a jagged outcrop is likely to panic. With the kids it's almost a guarantee.
Ah thanks for the clarification.
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