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Old 5th July 2018, 05:04 AM   #161
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They widened that part so the Seals could get through with their equipment on. That won't be the problem. The problem will be that the boys have to go through on their own as it's not wide enough for the diver/boy teams. The kids will be on pushme/pullyou tethers but it's dark, uneven and narrow and they just don't have the skills to cope with that, yet. The concern is that even an experienced diver who knocks his mask or tank off against a jagged outcrop is likely to panic. With the kids it's almost a guarantee.
??

Sorry

I could be wrong, but thought from interviews they widened it enough to get through but not without taking gear off.

Assumably we are talking hand tools and the diagram still says so
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Old 5th July 2018, 06:05 AM   #162
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I can think of few things more terrifying than being trapped underwater in the dark.
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Old 5th July 2018, 06:05 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
??

Sorry

I could be wrong, but thought from interviews they widened it enough to get through but not without taking gear off.

Assumably we are talking hand tools and the diagram still says so
I have no idea what you're saying - it's the double negative in the first full sentence. Or the final incomplete one? Perhaps you could re-phrase your post.

They widened a completely different point from the one mentioned in that cutaway map. They widened it, as they said at the time, so that the divers could pass through wearing their scuba tanks. They did have some early problems but they carried in all sorts of stuff past that point long ago. They have a marshaling area where the Evening Standard says they couldn't get through, so wherever they got that information, it's wrong. Personally, I think they just put the label in the wrong place.

Look further up the route towards the boys. See the "Cave Under 16 Feet of Water"? That's the traverse we're discussing.
*Is that the London Evening Standard? I tried to find the article to see their source, but can't locate it. Can you provide a link. They're right up there with the Daily Mail in terms of reliability.
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Old 5th July 2018, 07:03 AM   #164
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In Hollywood they use a rope in these situations, so that you just have to pull yourself along the line through the water and out to safety.
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Old 5th July 2018, 07:35 AM   #165
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Medical Assessment: Coach and boys not well enough to attempt escape.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/...ntl/index.html

Quote:
A medical assessment of the 12 boys and their football coach stuck in a cave in Northern Thailand has concluded that it is too dangerous to try to move the group out Thursday, according to a member of the Thai Navy Seals who is not authorized to speak to the media. The Seals have also started to pump oxygen into the chamber.

Separately, a new doctor's report highlighted that two of the boys and the coach were suffering with exhaustion from malnutrition.
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:39 AM   #166
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I'm staying with my original speculation that the boys won't be diving out of the cave. I know that equipment donations are happening and some training is happening - but they won't dive out.
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:59 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm staying with my original speculation that the boys won't be diving out of the cave. I know that equipment donations are happening and some training is happening - but they won't dive out.
You're probably right, but at the very least it'll give the kids something to focus on while the rescuers look at different solutions.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:14 AM   #168
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The Teevee news this morning suggested they might chip away at the ceilings to enable them to wade out chin deep.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:18 AM   #169
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An update from a reporter on the scene. Another kid from the team almost went with the others, but his Mom picked him up right after practice.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...?noredirect=on
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:19 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
You're probably right, but at the very least it'll give the kids something to focus on while the rescuers look at different solutions.

It also prepares them to act if the cave starts to fill and they have no other choice.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:23 AM   #171
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Daily Mail reports that the boys have heard dogs barking, roosters crowing and child voices. They think the sounds are coming from some opening to the surface and people are looking for the opening. But this seems like it could be delusions or auditory hallucinations or just made up tales.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:40 AM   #172
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There's also a report that some of the pumps were mistakenly pumping water into the cave instead of out. Not sure if confirmed.

Two boys and the coach have exhaustion due to malnutrition.

CNN says the roundtrip to visit the boys takes 11 hours. The phone connection failed because the cable fell into the water.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:54 AM   #173
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I haven't read anything about what is deeper into that cave system. I read they are about 3 miles into a 7 mile long system. Could conditions be better further in? If waters rise dangerously could it be better further in?
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:05 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Daily Mail reports that the boys have heard dogs barking, roosters crowing and child voices. They think the sounds are coming from some opening to the surface and people are looking for the opening. But this seems like it could be delusions or auditory hallucinations or just made up tales.
Couldn't they release some gas in the cave and then see if there are any traces found on the surface? Perhaps something mildly radioactive. (And it may have the side benefit of giving the children super powers.)
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:25 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Couldn't they release some gas in the cave and then see if there are any traces found on the surface? Perhaps something mildly radioactive. (And it may have the side benefit of giving the children super powers.)

Or, gee, how 'bout a giant bonfire? They could see if the smoke gets out.
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:37 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Quote:
Couldn't they release some gas in the cave and then see if there are any traces found on the surface? Perhaps something mildly radioactive. (And it may have the side benefit of giving the children super powers.)
Or, gee, how 'bout a giant bonfire? They could see if the smoke gets out.
Don't be silly. Its far to wet to start a bonfire. Perhaps some tear gas would work.

Ok, I don't really expect them to use anything like that, but it was a serious question about whether there is a reasonable way to trace air flow in a cave to see if there is an outlet to the outside. (I remember seeing a documentary where they used special dyes to trace water flow. I thought they may use the same methodology to trace air flow.)
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:56 AM   #177
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crescent's Pie-in-the-sky idea Number 1:

Lay a grid of microphones on the surface above where the kids are, say a few hundred meters on each side, one microphone every ten meters or so.

Make very loud noises in the cave (give the kids hearing protection). Do it electronically, at specific wavelengths.

See which mikes pic it up. Look for the right wavelengths as a way of filtering out ambient sounds.

Focus search effort on the places where the mikes pick up the sound the loudest, to look for currently undiscovered openings.

crescent's pie-in-the-sky idea #2:
Ground penetrating radar, to pick up voids closer to the surface, with hope that those will lead further down to the kids.

I have always seen ground penetrating radar done with sleds on skids. Is there an aerial equivalent?

crescent's pie-in-the-sky idea #3:
Heat the air in the cave. Use infrared imagery in the cool of the night to look for warm air coming out. Try to time it with weather forecasts to coincide with low-pressure systems.
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:56 AM   #178
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Well, they started all this as an initiation rite. I'd say they're now all in their own very exclusive club.
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Old 5th July 2018, 11:48 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I have no idea what you're saying - it's the double negative in the first full sentence. Or the final incomplete one? Perhaps you could re-phrase your post.

They widened a completely different point from the one mentioned in that cutaway map. They widened it, as they said at the time, so that the divers could pass through wearing their scuba tanks. They did have some early problems but they carried in all sorts of stuff past that point long ago. They have a marshaling area where the Evening Standard says they couldn't get through, so wherever they got that information, it's wrong. Personally, I think they just put the label in the wrong place.

Look further up the route towards the boys. See the "Cave Under 16 Feet of Water"? That's the traverse we're discussing.
*Is that the London Evening Standard? I tried to find the article to see their source, but can't locate it. Can you provide a link. They're right up there with the Daily Mail in terms of reliability.
How do you get double negative

It's wide enough to get through, but you have to take your gear off to do it

I could add and hold it in front of you but that would be stating the bleeding obvious.
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Old 5th July 2018, 07:34 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
How do you get double negative

It's wide enough to get through, but you have to take your gear off to do it

I could add and hold it in front of you but that would be stating the bleeding obvious.
It is wide enough to pass through with gear on. Period. They widened it.

It is NOT wide enough for a Seal and a kid to do together. Stop reading gossip rags. Do you not understand that the map you posted is wrong? The "pinch point" they are pointing to is not there. It is in the deep-dive location.

Divers have gone through with tanks on!!! End of story. They do not have to remove their scuba gear.


I posted this before. I referred you to it. The source is Thailand. I trust it far more than the crap map you posted because IT AGREES WITH ALL THE COMMENTARY FROM THE PROFESSIONALS ON THE SCENE.


https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/gen...y-out-for-boys
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Old 5th July 2018, 07:57 PM   #181
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Our concern here is that the PM and his dimwitted #2 now have the word from The King, who as we all know is appointed by the Buddha and can do no wrong.

The King has said "get them out as quickly as possible". Thai doesn't have a whole lot of nuance, but they could weasel if they say "well, waiting two weeks until they are healthy is "as soon as possible, your majesty". But they will take it, I fear, as marching orders.

On the human foibles front, the arguments have started as to whether they're "boys will be boys" or "irresponsible hooligans", with a couple of conspiracy weirdos offering up that they are under the spell of an evil shaman who cursed the coach because of a dispute over rice acreage with his grandparents. (Hey, we're as crazy as American conspiradroids!)

On the positive side, a bunch of local farmers are complaining because while the politicians are posturing, the army enlisted local volunteers and dammed up a couple of streams that feed the underground chambers. The water is actually going down. That water is flooding the farmers' land. The rice farms love it. Others? Not so much.

The amount of rainfall was not as bad as the doomsayers had warned about. The pumping is working, but not terribly rapidly and there's always the threat of more rain.
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:05 PM   #182
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Apparently a SEAL diver helping with the efforts ran out of air and died. Not a good sign for the kids.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-decision-live
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:10 PM   #183
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Our concern here is that the PM and his dimwitted #2 now have the word from The King, who as we all know is appointed by the Buddha and can do no wrong.

The King has said "get them out as quickly as possible". Thai doesn't have a whole lot of nuance, but they could weasel if they say "well, waiting two weeks until they are healthy is "as soon as possible, your majesty". But they will take it, I fear, as marching orders.

On the human foibles front, the arguments have started as to whether they're "boys will be boys" or "irresponsible hooligans", with a couple of conspiracy weirdos offering up that they are under the spell of an evil shaman who cursed the coach because of a dispute over rice acreage with his grandparents. (Hey, we're as crazy as American conspiradroids!)

On the positive side, a bunch of local farmers are complaining because while the politicians are posturing, the army enlisted local volunteers and dammed up a couple of streams that feed the underground chambers. The water is actually going down. That water is flooding the farmers' land. The rice farms love it. Others? Not so much.

The amount of rainfall was not as bad as the doomsayers had warned about. The pumping is working, but not terribly rapidly and there's always the threat of more rain.


Aaaaaand..... while I was typing this..... news is out that a Seal died from lack of oxygen, but not clear which section of the caves he was in.
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:13 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently a SEAL diver helping with the efforts ran out of air and died. Not a good sign for the kids.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-decision-live
Yeah, I was flipping channels and trying to understand the news as my Thai ain't that great. (I was looking to figure out where the Evening Standard got the crap information on their map, while typing my post.)
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:32 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently a SEAL diver helping with the efforts ran out of air and died. Not a good sign for the kids.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-decision-live
Just heard

Far out
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Old 5th July 2018, 10:04 PM   #186
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Latest NY Times report:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/w...e-updates.html
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Old 6th July 2018, 12:39 AM   #187
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I've done some scuba, including swimming through a coral arch in near perfect visibility and even with the arch being wide enough for 4 or 5 divers at a time, that rather tame experience was enough to have my respiration rate climb massively, depleting my supply early.

These kids are going to need rebreathers, because I certainly wouldn't want to have to change cylinders at depth with 0 vis. That would REALLY suck.
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Old 6th July 2018, 12:56 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Here's an article with a map (everyone might like this, actually) with the "Slope".
[Top Gear]Racist![/Top Gear]
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Old 6th July 2018, 05:40 AM   #189
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Five or so hour dive one way. Killer.
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Old 6th July 2018, 06:16 AM   #190
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SpaceX and The Boring Company (aka Musk Industries) representatives are flying to Thailand to offer aid.

Musk has been tweeting about various potential rescue plans and appears now to be offering his engineers to assist.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-bor...mpression=true
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Old 6th July 2018, 06:29 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And we don't have otters, nor beavers in Thailand...
"The Asian small-clawed otter has a large distribution range from India in South Asia through Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, and Indonesia"
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Old 6th July 2018, 07:46 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
"The Asian small-clawed otter has a large distribution range from India in South Asia through Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, and Indonesia"
Well, that's not a true otter...
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Old 6th July 2018, 08:01 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently a SEAL diver helping with the efforts ran out of air and died. Not a good sign for the kids.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-decision-live
So much for the feel-good story element.
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Old 6th July 2018, 08:52 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So much for the feel-good story element.
Yes, underlines just how much risk there may still be in any rescue attempt.
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Old 6th July 2018, 09:08 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So much for the feel-good story element.
Looks like he was a volunteer (retired military diver). I get the feeling that everything is a bit disorganized. Perhaps the Thai military should step in and enforce stricter protocols and procedures wrt. who's doing what and where and making sure participants/divers have past some sort of inspection before entering the cave.
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Old 6th July 2018, 03:40 PM   #196
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Latest report is that authorities think they're running out of time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/w...ue-divers.html
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Old 6th July 2018, 04:42 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Well, that's not a true otter...
Don't talk like that. It would be an otter shame.
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Old 6th July 2018, 10:02 PM   #198
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If would-be rescuers can pinpoint a route, mitigate risks and work quickly, a drilling-down seems like a plausible alternative vs. all of the risks associated with escorting out non-divers who are also non-swimmers.

It's messed up either way.

I would not want to be the adult who put these children at such risk. I'm sure the coach is telling himself the same thing, but really, someone should have known better, and it's NOT the teen-tween-age boys.
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:38 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If would-be rescuers can pinpoint a route, mitigate risks and work quickly, a drilling-down seems like a plausible alternative vs. all of the risks associated with escorting out non-divers who are also non-swimmers.

It's messed up either way.

I would not want to be the adult who put these children at such risk. I'm sure the coach is telling himself the same thing, but really, someone should have known better, and it's NOT the teen-tween-age boys.
Getting equipment to a mountain side location with no roads and covered in tropical vegetation is a problem.
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:52 AM   #200
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Elon tweeted an update on what they are building.

Quote:
Some good feedback from cave experts in Thailand. Iterating with them on an escape pod design that might be safe enough to try. Also building an inflatable tube with airlocks. Less likely to work, given tricky contours, but great if it does.
Previous tweets said they were thinking double-walled kevlar pod with its own air supply. Same kevlar material for the tube. He is working through Mu Space, a Thai company.
Will Thailand military wait for this?

Maybe they have diverted/plugged the rain water enough now that it buys them more time?
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