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Old 7th July 2018, 08:14 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Getting equipment to a mountain side location with no roads and covered in tropical vegetation is a problem.
I've been kind of wondering if horizontal drilling could be useful for this. Maybe they don't need to be directly above the kids.

I suppose another problem with drilling is that they cave is not mapped out as precisely as the average mine. These days mine companies drill quite a lot to get core samples as the mine progresses. They can ground truth underground locations by referencing the boreholes, and even regular surveyors theodolites work well, because things are more linear and nothing is flooded.

How hard is it to map a cave, when large sections are underwater? The chamber the kids are in is not all that large, the drilling would need to be very precise. I am not sure they have precise enough maps of the cave to do that.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:06 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Elon tweeted an update on what they are building.



Previous tweets said they were thinking double-walled kevlar pod with its own air supply. Same kevlar material for the tube. He is working through Mu Space, a Thai company.
Will Thailand military wait for this?

Maybe they have diverted/plugged the rain water enough now that it buys them more time?
Another update:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015657378140704768

Quote:
Got more great feedback from Thailand. Primary path is basically a tiny, kid-size submarine using the liquid oxygen transfer tube of Falcon rocket as hull. Light enough to be carried by 2 divers, small enough to get through narrow gaps. Extremely robust.
Nice idea but I suspect time may be against them.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:29 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Another update:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015657378140704768



Nice idea but I suspect time may be against them.
Thanks for the update!

I cannot help but think that, if it works out and proves safest, this would be such a great gift for those kids. A life story of international space engineers making custom survival pods just for them - using rocket parts!
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:09 PM   #204
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Question: If the kids wear full-face masks, as is being discussed, would they still need to use a regulator in their mouth, or would they be able to breathe normally, as if they were in a bubble? If the latter, it sounds like the main training they would need would be to remain calm as divers pass them through the water.

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Old 7th July 2018, 02:22 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: If the kids wear full-face masks, as is being discussed, would they still need to use a respirator in their mouth, or would they be able to breathe normally, as if they were in a bubble? If the latter, it sounds like the main training they would need would be to remain calm as divers pass them through the water.
It needs a tank just like the half mask, just no regulator in the mouth. The kids don't need to wear the tank themselves but then that presents other problems of having a connecting air line at all times, and probably larger or double tanks.
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:38 PM   #206
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Musk's escape pod will need to be neutrally buoyant. It can't be a floater or a sinker. Also it might get stuck or wedged if it can't bend like a human body.
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:56 PM   #207
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How is the air in the cave? I'm having nightmares about these kids suffocating before anyone can get them out.
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:59 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How is the air in the cave? I'm having nightmares about these kids suffocating before anyone can get them out.
Not great sadly.

From CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/...ntl/index.html

Quote:
Thai Navy SEAL chief Rear Adm. Aphakorn Yoo-kongkaew said oxygen levels in the cave had dropped to 15%, a level that one Thai medic said posed a serious risk of hypoxia, the same condition that causes altitude sickness. It was too dangerous to leave the boys much longer, Yoo-kongkaew said, despite the risks involved in attempting to bring them out.
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Old 7th July 2018, 03:02 PM   #209
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And Co2 rising as well.
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Old 7th July 2018, 03:18 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How is the air in the cave? I'm having nightmares about these kids suffocating before anyone can get them out.
I read yesterday about the 15% oxygen but that they had since installed an air line through to the chamber. I'll see if I can find an update.

eta: From the WSJ:

Quote:
“Today we made the decision to withdraw some unnecessary people from chamber three,” said Gov. Narongsak Osottanakorn. That area of the cave is being used as a base for rescue workers, and he said their breathing has lowered the level of oxygen and raised the level of carbon dioxide—which can be deadly even in the presence of sufficient oxygen.

While oxygen levels aren’t yet critical, officials are worried, and oxygen is being pumped into the cave, said Gov. Narongsak, who is overseeing the rescue effort.

The falling air quality adds pressure to an effort already facing the threat of heavy rains in the coming days. It is two weeks since flash floods trapped the 12 boys and their coach in the complex cave system.
It doesn't really say where exactly the oxygen is going though- maybe it's just to chamber 3. I do know that the diver who died was delivering oxygen to the boys cavern (no details on if it was for the ambient air or in tanks for diving)

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Old 7th July 2018, 03:33 PM   #211
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A portrait of the kids' coach.
Quote:
Ekapol was an orphan who lost his parents at age 10, friends say. He then trained to be a monk but left the monastery to care for his ailing grandmother in Mae Sai in northern Thailand. There, he split his time between a working as a temple hand at a monastery and training the then newly-established Moo Pa team. He found kindred spirits in the boys, many of whom had grown up poor or were stateless ethnic minorities, common in this border area between Myanmar and Thailand.

ďHe loved them more than himself,Ē said Joy Khampai, a longtime friend of Ekapolís who works at a coffee stand in the Mae Sai monastery. ďHe doesnít drink, he doesnít smoke. He was the kind of person who looked after himself and who taught the kids to do the same.Ē
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.5b78385a64fa
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Old 7th July 2018, 07:12 PM   #212
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A rescue attempt underway or imminent:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-0...t-site/9955116
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Old 7th July 2018, 07:31 PM   #213
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@Foolmewunz, my wife has a question she hasn't been able to answer via Google. Have there been prior deaths in Tham Luang cave? Any due specifically to being trapped or drowned in the cave by the seasonal flooding (as opposed to random misadventure such as falls)?
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Old 7th July 2018, 08:07 PM   #214
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It’s being reported that the rescue is now underway
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:06 PM   #215
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There moving them out

First 4 apparently

Saying 9 hours

Maybe wishful thinking
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:18 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There moving them out

First 4 apparently

Saying 9 hours

Maybe wishful thinking

From NY Times:
Quote:
Divers began an effort to rescue the 12 boys and their soccer coach Sunday morning from the cave where they are trapped as officials race against the threat of rains flooding the site and making such an effort impossible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/w...e-updates.html

The report doesn't give a number. It seems like it would make sense to bring out one kid, or maybe even a SEAL acting like a kid, to work out bugs in the system. Maybe they don't think they have time.
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:22 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There moving them out

First 4 apparently

Saying 9 hours

Maybe wishful thinking
BBC just did a live radio report. They say an 11 hour round trip for the divers per boy. However, that doesnt really say how long it takes to get each one out. (Just the first one) Im sure they will stagger them as the each kid arrives at the staging areas closer to the exit.

That's only if the first one goes well I suppose.

Did anyone hear how long it really takes?
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:28 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/w...e-updates.html

The report doesn't give a number. It seems like it would make sense to bring out one kid, or maybe even a SEAL acting like a kid, to work out bugs in the system. Maybe they don't think they have time.
BBC radio said the did a dress rehearsal. They explained that it began when the military made that impassable wall to keep media out. I saw that happen on their Friday morning, so they've practiced 2 days.
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:33 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
BBC just did a live radio report. They say an 11 hour round trip for the divers per boy. However, that doesnt really say how long it takes to get each one out. (Just the first one) Im sure they will stagger them as the each kid arrives at the staging areas closer to the exit.

That's only if the first one goes well I suppose.

Did anyone hear how long it really takes?

Those divers are earning their pay on this assignment. That's about how long it takes and why that diver died. Very difficult conditions even for the most experienced divers. Can't see anything, not even the depth gauge and air reserves, also strong currents.
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:37 PM   #220
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An eleven hour round trip is how long it's been taking for one diver to deliver supplies to the trapped boys and return to the entrance.

Just the outward trip for an actual rescue... I'd estimate seven hours. Longer if the rescuee needs long rest stops along the way due to fatigue, illness, reluctance, or mishap.
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:42 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
An eleven hour round trip is how long it's been taking for one diver to deliver supplies to the trapped boys and return to the entrance.

Just the outward trip for an actual rescue... I'd estimate seven hours. Longer if the rescuee needs long rest stops along the way due to fatigue, illness, reluctance, or mishap.

How much of the distance is actually fully underwater, and how much leaves enough room to at least get your head above water if you have an air problem?
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:09 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How much of the distance is actually fully underwater, and how much leaves enough room to at least get your head above water if you have an air problem?

Hard to tell. We're not getting complete information. And some of the maps and graphics published in some media are garbled, contradicting one another and/or what their own captions claim they show. My general impression is that the longest all-underwater stretches are closer to Nern Nom Sao Slope (hey, ABC news finally picked up that name a few days ago!) where they're trapped, with the longest being a few hundred meters. However there have also been reports that the pumping effort has lowered the water enough to create air space in at least some stretches that had been completely submerged before.

More air space doesn't necessarily save time, though. More likely the opposite. Where there's air space they'll probably want to use it for safety and to minimize the psychological stress on the kids, but bobbing along with your head in the air space is probably slower than pulling along the fixed lines fully underwater relying on your scuba gear.

I think of this operation as analogous to a litter rescue from a steep mountain hiking trail, even though every detail is different. When you're moving there's no point in going much slower than walking (or in this case swimming) speed, but you spend a lot of time not moving; there's a lot of stopping and starting, changing personnel and adjusting gear and getting ready to negotiate the next bit. A third of a mile per hour is good progress.
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:26 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yet sadly he led these boys to what may amount to a death trap. I'm sure he is a caring person, but that was a poor decision IMO.

I keep thinking drilling from the top or the side is going to be more feasible than the scuba plan, but I don't know much. They could probably survive for months with high-energy rations and ventilation. If the king has made extraction as soon as possible the priority, I'm afraid events will be a little rushed.

Hell, if even an experienced diver/rescuer could die in the attempt it does not bode well for weak and possibly panicky children.
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:49 PM   #224
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The rescue is under way

TVNZ are reporting that a large number of divers have entered the cave just a few minutes ago

ETA: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/1...hourslong-wait
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:51 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Yet sadly he led these boys to what may amount to a death trap. I'm sure he is a caring person, but that was a poor decision IMO.
I'm not saying you're wrong as you very well may be right, but I haven't heard this confirmed.
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:51 PM   #226
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I reckon they will get them all out diving. First within next 12 hours.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:15 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I reckon they will get them all out diving. First within next 12 hours.
I'm glad they are underway.

There are enough divers, and hopefully they will take them out one after the other and not make them wait a long time between kids. But I think it will take longer than 12 hours. I'll say 24 with the first kid out in 10.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:22 PM   #228
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Presumably if the first goes alright with 18 divers one at a time doesn't mean waiting till each is out.

2 divers per kid

Could probably do them every 1 hour if they time the passing of ones going out with divers coming back in, in places with enough space
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:42 PM   #229
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If you want a description of the passages as walked though by cavers, it is available in this book:
The Caves of Thailand, Volume 2, Northern Thailand (2017)

See page 151 for the Tham Luang cave.

Interesting that it was reported that the boys were trying to get to the far back of the cave (as a dare/initiation rite). This book claims it's sometimes not possible, even in the dry season (some years portions will remain flooded). The French map in 1987 suggested trying at the very end of the dry season to make it through, which would be June. So that makes sense why they were there at that time.

eta: if you've seen the sign in front of the entrance, it warns of flooding July-November

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Old 7th July 2018, 11:42 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Yet sadly he led these boys to what may amount to a death trap. I'm sure he is a caring person, but that was a poor decision IMO.

I keep thinking drilling from the top or the side is going to be more feasible than the scuba plan, but I don't know much. They could probably survive for months with high-energy rations and ventilation. If the king has made extraction as soon as possible the priority, I'm afraid events will be a little rushed.

Hell, if even an experienced diver/rescuer could die in the attempt it does not bode well for weak and possibly panicky children.
When they set off it was dry. Monsoon might have arrived sooner than expected.
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Old 7th July 2018, 11:58 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
When they set off it was dry. Monsoon might have arrived sooner than expected.
And he wasn't the first, it was apparently an established rite of passage.
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Old 8th July 2018, 02:38 AM   #232
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According to the Bangkok Post, the boys and the coach will be extracted in four groups. The first group will have four people, the second, third and fourth with three people each, with the coach in the final group.
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Old 8th July 2018, 02:53 AM   #233
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An updated map of the cave showing the size/shape of the tight spaces.

It's very large so I'll just leave a link.
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Old 8th July 2018, 04:13 AM   #234
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This seems to be the plan.



Foolmewunz might be able to translate the words in the diagram, but the description I saw in a Thai newspaper website seems to say that each boy will be accompanied by two Navy Seals, and that difficult parts will be negotiating the tight bottlenecks and water up to 5m deep.
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Old 8th July 2018, 04:24 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
An updated map of the cave showing the size/shape of the tight spaces.

It's very large so I'll just leave a link.
Thanks, the smallest aperture shown is 0.72m*0.38m. this is only fractionally larger than the dimensions of a 12l scuba tank. I've seen suggestions that tanks will be "rolled" through here, but that seems highly unlikely, particularly given the effect of rolling on the air hose.
As I'm visualizing it, it would be easier to inch the tank through end-on ahead of the child, guided by the the lead diver. To do this the lead diver's going to have to go through, find space to turn round and then coax the tank through, possibly with a rope, depending on the length of the section. So they're going to be facing the 'wrong' way in a narrow fissure, trying to control ropes, a tank and an untrained diver, and this is gong to happen thirteen times.

As a scuba instructor, my heart is in my mouth just thinking about it.
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Old 8th July 2018, 04:25 AM   #236
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12:!7 BBC
Thai reports - two boys rescued

The first two boys have been evacuated from the cave, some Thai media are reporting.

There is no official confirmation of this.
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Old 8th July 2018, 04:56 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Thanks, the smallest aperture shown is 0.72m*0.38m. this is only fractionally larger than the dimensions of a 12l scuba tank. I've seen suggestions that tanks will be "rolled" through here, but that seems highly unlikely, particularly given the effect of rolling on the air hose.
As I'm visualizing it, it would be easier to inch the tank through end-on ahead of the child, guided by the the lead diver. To do this the lead diver's going to have to go through, find space to turn round and then coax the tank through, possibly with a rope, depending on the length of the section. So they're going to be facing the 'wrong' way in a narrow fissure, trying to control ropes, a tank and an untrained diver, and this is gong to happen thirteen times.

As a scuba instructor, my heart is in my mouth just thinking about it.

Smartcooky's Thai diagram appears to show the rescuee receiving air through a hose from the lead rescue diver's tanks, rather than carrying his own. So the lead diver's going to have to do what you describe to get the tanks he's bearing through, while protecting the connecting hose, but won't have to turn around.

The sweep diver can be right there with the rescuee while the lead diver does this, in case anything goes wrong. (Maybe they can even temporarily transfer the rescuee's air feed to their own tanks at that point; I don't know if the equipment permits that.) Then make sure the rescuee gets through the narrow. Then has to go through that process himself (seems like the most dangerous part, because at that point there's no aid if something goes wrong for him).
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:10 AM   #238
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CNN is reporting (on their live update page) that heavy rain (intermittent so far) in the area started 3 hours ago.

By now I suspect and hope that all the remaining rescuees in the cave are in motion. Time's up, unless they have to abort for some reason and leave some to wait for much later.
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You know they have schools in Thailand. Sometimes in school you go to classes on how to speak other languages. I have been often frustrated when traveling as an English speaker that I can't practice any of my languages because so many people want to practice their English with me.

The way to counter that, is to reply in their language.
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:25 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Make it one of those coats that has sleeves that tie behind the back, maybe?


English is taught to one degree or another in all schools. These are middle class kids (although Venom thinks they just came from fighting insurgents and human trafficking drug lords in the jungle) and will have been taught English.

Notice that there are a couple of 'em answering coherently? In any town or city in Thailand, if you walk up to a group of 12/15 middle-school students and ask "Do any of you speak English?", the kids will push Nai Pi forward as he's the best in that subject. If I go up-country to my wife's family's homestead, all the kids can say common expressions but there's always a couple or three who can actually converse.

If there's part of the China team in there, someone in Beijing is now asking "Hey, is this fake? How come they answered in Putonghua?" Same reason, but even more so. Not only is Chinese a mandatory subject in grade school,but many Thais are fifth or sixth generation Chinese and just as kids in Canada are going back and learning Celtic culture and language, Thai-Chinese kids are taking to learning their own history/culture.
Yes, of course. It was just one of those weird moments, when they all seemed to be wearing Arsenal football shirts and responded so politely to the Brit divers.

It was like one of those sci-fi movies were the aliens from outer space all seem to have California accents (except when they are baddies, and then they are upper-crust Christopher Lee English) and Hoolywood-style anthropomorphism, like ET, or Bambi crying for its mum.
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