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Old 8th July 2018, 05:30 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
While crawling through tight twists and turns of not blunt rockface

Personally I would **** myself
Apparently there is also a cliff in there.
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:44 AM   #242
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Old 8th July 2018, 05:55 AM   #243
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The first boys were brought out at circa 12:00 GMT.

Quote:
Weakest boys 'brought out first'
Bangkok-based journalist Florian Witulski has been sharing some details about the rescue on social media.

According to Witulski, an Australian doctor decided to bring out the weakest boys first.
Another four are expected out shortly.

Quote:
13:29
Four boys expected to 'walk out' soon
Lieutenant-General Kongcheep Tantrawanit has said another four of the boys are expected to walk out "shortly".

They are currently at the divers' "base camp", inside the cave system, he said.

"Four boys have reached chamber three and will walk out of the cave shortly," he said, according to news agency AFP.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/44755093
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:00 AM   #244
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It seems to be going well:

'Six now out'

Quote:
13:59
Conflicting reports over how many boys rescued
Reuters news agency are reporting that six of the 12 boys trapped in the cave have now been brought out, quoting a senior member of the rescue medical team.

However, the Thai Navy Seals have only just tweeted that three of the boys are out
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/44755093

Some say three, some say four.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:05 AM   #245
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:07 AM   #246
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I hope that's 8 out of 8 attempted so far.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:11 AM   #247
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I think only three four actually confirmed but it's hard to know exactly. It seems to be going well anyway and hopefully the numbers will continue to rise.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:11 AM   #248
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I don't know about the Thai cultural level of saving face, but I would not be surprised if the coach himself has to be strongly convinced not to stay there.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:14 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I hope that's 8 out of 8 attempted so far.
According to John Irvine of ITV News, the condition of one of the first two boys is causing concern:

https://twitter.com/johnirvineitv/st...42669116366848


ETA The figure reported of 'eight out' seems ahead of itself.
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:43 AM   #250
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It's hard to imagine them actually diving out with scuba. They are true beginners with no real experience.

Some reports say that the pumping became productive. Natural water flows in the surrounding region had been stopped or diverted.

There's the possibility that many flooded sections now can be waded through instead of having to be dived through.
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:17 AM   #251
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From NY Times:
Quote:
Four of the players have safely made the harrowing underwater passage out of the cave and were at the local hospital, the head of search operations, Narongsak Osottanakorn, said at a news conference on Sunday night.

He said that would be a delay of at least 10 hours until other boys were rescued, to allow time for more air tanks and gear to be replaced along their route.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/w...e-updates.html
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's hard to imagine them actually diving out with scuba. They are true beginners with no real experience.

Some reports say that the pumping became productive. Natural water flows in the surrounding region had been stopped or diverted.

There's the possibility that many flooded sections now can be waded through instead of having to be dived through.
When they report that they are considering have them scuba out. When they begin to put a plan in place to scuba them out. When the put aux gear along the route in anticipation of scuba-ing them out. When they send in multiple divers in preparation of scub-ing them out...................

I think you can safely assume that they will be scuba diving out.
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:39 AM   #253
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Question: How long will the air in a standard scuba tank last, on average, when diving in shallow water? How often would they need to change tanks during an extraction, and how hard is that under these conditions?
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post

Yeah, looks like I was wrong about them starting everyone out in staggered stages today. Not enough bottled air in place to do that so now they have to restock.

Reports say the boys were carried through the non-flooded sections. That makes sense; an injury from a fall could make things a lot worse in a hurry. But it increases the personnel requirements quite a bit. As I mentioned yesterday, a litter carry on a steep rugged mountain trail normally requires dozens of rescuers, and if anything the cave passage is more difficult to negotiate.

The last live footage from the area I saw an hour ago showed little or no rain falling. Hopefully (rain or not) they'll still have a window for the others.
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:59 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: How long will the air in a standard scuba tank last, on average, when diving in shallow water? How often would they need to change tanks during an extraction, and how hard is that under these conditions?
Very variable depending on body size, fitness, exertion and anxiety. Judging purely on appearance, they seem to have the first two in their favour and the SEALS will be doing everything to minimise the latter.
Ball park would be 45-75 minutes. Tanks swaps will be in above water in the chambers where possible. If there are sections where they can't do that then lead diver can switch tanks using a gas switching block without a break in air supply. The tricky part is locating, clipping and connecting hoses in zero visibility with little room for manoeuvre.
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Old 8th July 2018, 08:19 AM   #256
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Word over here is that they will not recommence operations for another 8/10 hours. The divers at the base camp sent out a message that basically said "goodnight". One genius pointed out that there's no day/night in there so no need to put in "normal" hours. His co-presenter, a retired Seal, pointed out that they've got them on a somewhat regular (for Thais) sleep/wake cycle for the past six days (up at 5 or 6), and they want them rested.

They have made very few announcements. The figure of four boys is confirmed. People were crossing communications earlier and had reports of up to six out and two more on the way, but all they've confirmed is the four. With the first kid coming out at about 6PM, it took them 7 to 8 hours, about 30 to 45 minutes apart. If the early count is accurate, there were as many as 18/20 divers active. It sounds like they're handing them off with teams that are very specialized in certain segments. I'd imagine the top divers are at the infamous underwater pinchpoint, having had the kids handed off from the long-swim to that point and then handing them off again after they clear "the narrows".

There is positively no information as to the effects the steady rain has had on the water levels. Western reports still keep mentioning the oncoming monsoon but the local coverage mentioned several times that it was raining heavily at the cave entrance where the press are encamped. (The weather in the semi-mountainous areas can be tricky - it could be raining at the exit/entrance and not raining up-slope or on the other side which may be where th streams get fed from.)

You guys are probably getting your news more quickly than English-speakers in Thailand. The English press here is a willing co-conspirator with the government's censorship drills. They print nothing that hasn't been vetted.

We've been glued to Thai coverage all day and my wife's getting tired of translating for me.


ETA: I edited the above, but the internet crapped out and it didn't take. If they have 18/20 divers and they're all working in tandem, then they put in a ten hour, rather arduous day. They need to rest regardless of what the TV pundits think is best.
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Old 8th July 2018, 08:37 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's hard to imagine them actually diving out with scuba. They are true beginners with no real experience.

Some reports say that the pumping became productive. Natural water flows in the surrounding region had been stopped or diverted.

There's the possibility that many flooded sections now can be waded through instead of having to be dived through.
They are swimming them out. With scuba.
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Old 8th July 2018, 08:49 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I don't know about the Thai cultural level of saving face, but I would not be surprised if the coach himself has to be strongly convinced not to stay there.
???? Like Japanese commanders in WWII? You expect him to brick himself up inside the cave? Ritual suicide?

They've said that he'll be the last to come out just as I'd expect of any youth leader anywhere in the world.
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Old 8th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
@Foolmewunz, my wife has a question she hasn't been able to answer via Google. Have there been prior deaths in Tham Luang cave? Any due specifically to being trapped or drowned in the cave by the seasonal flooding (as opposed to random misadventure such as falls)?
I'm only going by what I haven't heard - - the Thai language press makes the National Enquirer look like the NY Times! If there had been prior deaths in the cave the place would've been nicknamed "Death Cave" and I've heard no such reporting.
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:37 AM   #260
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One hopes a strong iron gate with equally sturdy lock is in the cave's future during the rainy season when this is all over.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:14 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
???? Like Japanese commanders in WWII? You expect him to brick himself up inside the cave? Ritual suicide?
No, that's what I was wondering -- is it the kind of thing that's generally in Thai psyche? I certainly don't want him to do that.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They've said that he'll be the last to come out just as I'd expect of any youth leader anywhere in the world.
I did fully expect him to present this.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:28 AM   #262
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Most articles about the culpability of the coach, whether on his side or against him, fail to mention that all the warnings about not entering the cave during the rainy season said not to enter after the start of July, and they entered on June 23rd.

Of course, they failed to leave before the start of July, but that wasn't their fault. If not an iron gate, then perhaps there will at least be a better sign that adds something like "or in June if the possibility of heavy rain is forecast..." to the warning.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:30 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
No, that's what I was wondering -- is it the kind of thing that's generally in Thai psyche? I certainly don't want him to do that.
....
He trained as a Buddhist monk. My limited understanding of Buddhism is that core teachings are humility and acceptance. For him to adopt that kind of emotionalism would probably be seen as an unacceptable display of selfish ego. And the parents have sent him messages telling him that they don't blame him. He has family, too; there's no reason to think he doesn't want to live.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:33 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
....
Of course, they failed to leave before the start of July, but that wasn't their fault. If not an iron gate, then perhaps there will at least be a better sign that adds something like "or in June if the possibility of heavy rain is forecast..." to the warning.
This will become a notorious site for curiosity-seekers. Unless they want to run more rescue operations, they will probably seal the entrance. Bars and a padlock won't be enough.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This will become a notorious site for curiosity-seekers. Unless they want to run more rescue operations, they will probably seal the entrance. Bars and a padlock won't be enough.

I hope not. That would be a great loss.

There have been about 150 deaths on Mount Washington in New Hampshire, a small* mountain with sometimes surprising severe weather, in the last 120 years. Thousands of people go too high too poorly prepared every year, there are hundreds of close calls (people who get in trouble but manage to escape unassisted), manpower-intensive rescues (though of course not on the international scale of the current Tham Luang event) are routine, and every once in a while enough goes wrong all at once to kill someone. But no one is gating off the access trails.

What I've read about how the local people regard the cave it sounds similar. Many people visit the large easily accessible caverns near the entrance. A fair number explore farther, many go too deep too poorly prepared, and some have gotten in serious trouble but managed to escape on their own.

If the cave stays open during the dry season (and the safe entrance area portion remains open all the time), that should reduce the likelihood of people breaking the gate if the interior sections are barred for the rainy season.

I saw some footage of rescuers cutting away cave formations to gain better access. Clearly that's the right thing to do under the circumstances, but the way cavers feel about preserving caves I suspect it also broke their hearts to do it. I don't think they'd be happy about the whole place ending up sealed off either.


*Stack two more mountains of the same height on top of it, and the topmost summit would just about reach the altitude of Everest base camp.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:32 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
An updated map of the cave showing the size/shape of the tight spaces.

It's very large so I'll just leave a link.

By the way, thanks for posting that. It's the best of the many maps I've seen. It has enough detail but not too much, and appears to have all the locations and distances labeled correctly. (As opposed to the ones that put the 3rd chamber beyond the t junction, or omit a kilometer here and there, or label the narrowest constriction as Pattaya Beach, and so forth.)
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:40 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He trained as a Buddhist monk. My limited understanding of Buddhism is that core teachings are humility and acceptance. And the parents have sent him messages telling him that they don't blame him.
They even write that they worry about him and admonish him to keep warm. It's downright sweet :-).

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-0...32?pfmredir=sm

Quote:
He has family, too; there's no reason to think he doesn't want to live.
He is an orphan. The boys and the rest of the villagers is a sort of his adopted extended family from what I've read.
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Old 8th July 2018, 12:25 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Didactylos View Post
...
He is an orphan. The boys and the rest of the villagers is a sort of his adopted extended family from what I've read.
His parents and brother died when he was 10, and other relatives took him in. The Post story said he left the monastery to care for his ailing grandmother. I don't think we can assume he doesn't have any family.
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Old 8th July 2018, 02:12 PM   #269
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I'm not sure how much distance can be covered by foot inside the cave, however, news sources are suggesting as much as 11 football fields of it are under water, despite pumping out thousands of gallons of it. Just wow.
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Old 8th July 2018, 04:35 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
???? Like Japanese commanders in WWII? You expect him to brick himself up inside the cave? Ritual suicide?

They've said that he'll be the last to come out just as I'd expect of any youth leader anywhere in the world.
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
No, that's what I was wondering -- is it the kind of thing that's generally in Thai psyche? I certainly don't want him to do that.


I did fully expect him to present this.
He was the fourth out, as it turned out. Orders of the doctors because he was suffering from the worst malnutrition, having given up his share of food to the others. Also, when they gave the ages of a couple of the other first out, they were neither the youngest nor oldest. I thought they'd take out the fittest first to have a great show of success; they may have taken out the weaker ones. Maybe a mix.
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:28 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He trained as a Buddhist monk. My limited understanding of Buddhism is that core teachings are humility and acceptance. For him to adopt that kind of emotionalism would probably be seen as an unacceptable display of selfish ego. And the parents have sent him messages telling him that they don't blame him. He has family, too; there's no reason to think he doesn't want to live.

Will that matter? I've seen all sorts of comments on news articles saying he should be left in there to die or lynched immediately after coming out.
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:37 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Will that matter? I've seen all sorts of comments on news articles saying he should be left in there to die or lynched immediately after coming out.
Are those comments on American or Thai news articles?
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Old 8th July 2018, 09:45 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Will that matter? I've seen all sorts of comments on news articles saying he should be left in there to die or lynched immediately after coming out.
In Thailand? Or by the foul Americans who degrade many comment boards? The kids' parents -- certainly the ones with greatest cause for outrage -- seeming to be wishing him well.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...e-against-time
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:07 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In Thailand? Or by the foul Americans who degrade many comment boards? The kids' parents -- certainly the ones with greatest cause for outrage -- seeming to be wishing him well.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...e-against-time
I watched a live Thai news stream on youtube last night. There were a lot of comments in the scrolling chatbox proposing jail and punishment (including death) for the coach. However, there were also many comments calling those people crazy and heartless. Judging by the excitement when the stream would briefly switch to English, they were clearly not Thai!

P.S. Is there no Thai word for 'helicopter'? It was the only English word that popped out regularly.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:14 PM   #275
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About the Australian cave-diving anaesthetist helping with the rescue:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-0...e-says/9957074

He sounds like a real badass.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:22 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
He was the fourth out, as it turned out.
.....
Do you have a link? I can't find anything about that.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:36 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Will that matter? I've seen all sorts of comments on news articles saying he should be left in there to die or lynched immediately after coming out.
I've read a number of such comments but most have three or four likes and are buried in long lists of posts by well-wishers and people who seem to understand from experience how one could make such a potentially tragic mistake. But a mistake it was.

Those commenters are the same who want to rape feminists to teach 'em a lesson, I'm pretty sure.

Do not underestimate the power of the apology in Asia. As one of the moms put it, "Don't apologize Ake. We don't blame you for making a mistake and it's what you've done since that is important."

The guy's in the hospital for malnutrition and dehydration because he gave his share of the food and water to the kids. Also, believe in the religion or not, teaching them to meditate and get control of their breathing and emotions was no doubt a major plus.

Here, we all swim in areas marked No Swimming, go up to waterfalls that have warnings posted that the rocks are too slippery during rainy season, and follow paths fit only for mountain goats. "Oh, those signs? They're for clumsy idiots not cool clear-headed people like me." Heck, it's Asia. We had a "Hold My Beer" pool when I worked in Taipei. Person to guess the number of people who died during the coming typhoon because "they went out on the breakwater to watch the storm" won. Not a one of them was suicidal, just normal local people who figured all the warnings were for other people.
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Last edited by Foolmewunz; 8th July 2018 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:46 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Do you have a link? I can't find anything about that.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/gen...re-cave-ordeal
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:59 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I watched a live Thai news stream on youtube last night. There were a lot of comments in the scrolling chatbox proposing jail and punishment (including death) for the coach. However, there were also many comments calling those people crazy and heartless. Judging by the excitement when the stream would briefly switch to English, they were clearly not Thai!

P.S. Is there no Thai word for 'helicopter'? It was the only English word that popped out regularly.
Honest injun.... The word is written in the Thai alphabet but is pronounced Hellykopterrrr.

Like Japanese, we have dozens of such words.

Die No So? That's "dinosaur". Come Pew Toah... "computer". There are others... basketball is one. The other days when I was being a good visitor I asked my wife how they say Pattaya Beach (as the spot in the cave is named after our famous/infamous beach). She said no one says anything other than "Pattaya Beach". That's what all the signs say (on all the beaches, by the way).
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Old 8th July 2018, 10:59 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
... Here, we all swim in areas marked No Swimming, go up to waterfalls that have warnings posted that the rocks are too slippery during rainy season, and follow paths fit only for mountain goats. "Oh, those signs? They're for clumsy idiots not cool clear-headed people like me." Heck, it's Asia. We had a "Hold My Beer" pool when I worked in Taipei. Person to guess the number of people who died during the coming typhoon because "they went out on the breakwater to watch the storm" won. Not a one of them was suicidal, just normal local people who figured all the warnings were for other people.
I have a whole bunch of stories like that and I'm not in Thailand.
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