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Tags conservatism , conservatives , donald trump , george will , Max Boot , republican party

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Old 4th July 2018, 01:03 PM   #1
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Max Boot: Support Dems

"“Should I stay or should I go now?” That question, posed by the eminent political philosophers known as The Clash, is one that confronts any Republican with a glimmer of conscience. You used to belong to a conservative party with a white-nationalist fringe. Now it’s a white-nationalist party with a conservative fringe. If you’re part of that fringe, what should you do?"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.c749e11aa95a

Max Boot and George Will supporting the Dems... we really have gone through the looking glass. Does this give any of our resident conservatives pause to think they might be on the wrong side of history?

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Old 4th July 2018, 01:48 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"...You used to belong to a conservative party with a white-nationalist fringe. Now it’s a white-nationalist party with a conservative fringe. If you’re part of that fringe, what should you do?"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.c749e11aa95a
That's probably the most succinct description of Trump-era (and probably Obama-era) Republicans I've seen.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:05 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"“Should I stay or should I go now?” That question, posed by the eminent political philosophers known as The Clash, is one that confronts any Republican with a glimmer of conscience. You used to belong to a conservative party with a white-nationalist fringe. Now it’s a white-nationalist party with a conservative fringe. If you’re part of that fringe, what should you do?"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.c749e11aa95a

Max Boot and George Will supporting the Dems... we really have gone through the looking glass. Does this give any of our resident conservatives pause to think they might be on the wrong side of history?
Where is logger when you need him? I'm sure he would say something about them being 'pretend' conservatives.

The labels conservative and liberal have really meant little for a long time. Will and Boot have been poster boys for the conservative movement for a very long time. Low taxes, balanced budget, strong military. And while I disagree with both of them on so many issues, I wouldn't question either's loyalty to the nation.

I don't see how people can't see that Trump is a major nutbag We elected our crazy racist uncle to be President. This man knows little about anything other than getting attention. Don't these people get sick of his non-stop lying?
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:15 PM   #4
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I always thought George Will was solidly conservative, but not right wing, not a bomb thrower.

I thought Max Boot was a fair bit to the right of Will, getting into "Right Wing" territory.

But that was a good 15-20 years ago, back when Newsweek was a popular news outlet, consumed almost exclusively hardcopy.

The world has moved on, neither Boot nor Will are anywhere near as influential as they once were. They've been eclipsed by all the Glenn Becks and Alex Jones of the world, not to mention all the screaming ninnies with Youtube channels.

ETA: It's a bit like all the Republican politicians who come out against Trump - but only if they have already retired or announced that they won't be running for re-election. Even Romney is shifting to a pro-Trump stance now they he is getting back in the game.

Last edited by crescent; 4th July 2018 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I always thought George Will was solidly conservative, but not right wing, not a bomb thrower.

I thought Max Boot was a fair bit to the right of Will, getting into "Right Wing" territory.

But that was a good 15-20 years ago, back when Newsweek was a popular news outlet, consumed almost exclusively hardcopy.

The world has moved on, neither Boot nor Will are anywhere near as influential as they once were. They've been eclipsed by all the Glenn Becks and Alex Jones of the world, not to mention all the screaming ninnies with Youtube channels.

ETA: It's a bit like all the Republican politicians who come out against Trump - but only if they have already retired or announced that they won't be running for re-election. Even Romney is shifting to a pro-Trump stance now they he is getting back in the game.
Will is not influential any more because the party left him. He's been solidly against Trump since the Donald came down that escalator. And Beck has been schizophrenic. He was solidly against Trump during most of the campaign. But Beck is like Rush and Dershowitz. They are whores and devoid of any real principles. Will might make small compromises, but he has always had core principles.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:48 PM   #6
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Max Boot is obviously a squishy RINO who was never really a Republican.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't see how people can't see that Trump is a major nutbag We elected our crazy racist uncle to be President. This man knows little about anything other than getting attention. Don't these people get sick of his non-stop lying?
The best that Trump can contribute is as an argument for why the system needs fixing. The worst is that he tests it to destruction.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I always thought George Will was solidly conservative, but not right wing, not a bomb thrower.
I tend to use a spectrum running from conservative to radical. Both can be progressive : the argument is about the optimum pace. Sceptics are natural conservatives.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:13 PM   #9
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Are there any Trump supporters still left here? Well, openly supportive, that is. I have my suspicions about a few people.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are there any Trump supporters still left here? Well, openly supportive, that is. I have my suspicions about a few people.
The holding pattern of the moment involves whining about how institutionally unfair Trump's reviews have been recently. It's not about supporting Trump, you understand, it's about the negativity with which his failures and idiocy are presented for all to see by reality.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:43 PM   #11
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It'll be interesting to see what the GOP looks like after Trump's gone, assuming anyone survives.
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Old 4th July 2018, 03:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The best that Trump can contribute is as an argument for why the system needs fixing. The worst is that he tests it to destruction.
The system always has needed fixing and probably always will. It's the point of the unfinished pyramid on our money.

And that's ok....to a point. The world is always changing and we the people and the government must adapt to that government. Granted, it is much more dysfunctional right now than it has been for a very long time.

I read an article a couple of days ago about how the average American worker's quality of life is much worse than it is in the rest in the developed world. Now, that news is stunning to most of us. But if you consider that most nations in Europe have better education, better healthcare, better pensions, much more vacation time than we do, it certainly gives pause.
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The system always has needed fixing and probably always will. It's the point of the unfinished pyramid on our money.

And that's ok....to a point. The world is always changing and we the people and the government must adapt to that government. Granted, it is much more dysfunctional right now than it has been for a very long time.

I read an article a couple of days ago about how the average American worker's quality of life is much worse than it is in the rest in the developed world. Now, that news is stunning to most of us. But if you consider that most nations in Europe have better education, better healthcare, better pensions, much more vacation time than we do, it certainly gives pause.
I think Trump was a wake-up call to a lot of people like me, which is a good thing. I thought the racist stuff and Access Hollywood were absolute disqualifiers, and my thinking (mistakenly) was that around 80% of the country would agree. I had no idea...
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The system always has needed fixing and probably always will. It's the point of the unfinished pyramid on our money.

And that's ok....to a point. The world is always changing and we the people and the government must adapt to that government. Granted, it is much more dysfunctional right now than it has been for a very long time.

I read an article a couple of days ago about how the average American worker's quality of life is much worse than it is in the rest in the developed world. Now, that news is stunning to most of us. But if you consider that most nations in Europe have better education, better healthcare, better pensions, much more vacation time than we do, it certainly gives pause.
The rest of the developed world also have much better workers' rights than in the US as well, whether it's health and safety protection on the job, employment protection or protection from harassment. Even the UK, which seems to be modelling itself on the US from this perspective, is far better although to a great extent it's the EU that's providing the backstop. Post-Brexit I anticipate US-style fire at will policies and a rejection of "elfen safety" from employers.
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:34 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
It'll be interesting to see what the GOP looks like after Trump's gone, assuming anyone survives.
Probably what the Whig party looked like in the 1860 election...
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:35 PM   #16
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BTW Max Boot has written some really good Military History.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:09 PM   #17
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It's interesting that the Trump worshippers here are avoiding this thread like the plague.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's interesting that the Trump worshippers here are avoiding this thread like the plague.
You should consider talking to the conservatives here, instead of having imaginary tea parties.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:56 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You should consider talking to the conservatives here, instead of having imaginary tea parties.
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Does this give any of our resident conservatives pause to think they might be on the wrong side of history?
The mic is yours....
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"“Should I stay or should I go now?” That question, posed by the eminent political philosophers known as The Clash, is one that confronts any Republican with a glimmer of conscience. You used to belong to a conservative party with a white-nationalist fringe. Now it’s a white-nationalist party with a conservative fringe. If you’re part of that fringe, what should you do?"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.c749e11aa95a

Max Boot and George Will supporting the Dems... we really have gone through the looking glass. Does this give any of our resident conservatives pause to think they might be on the wrong side of history?
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That's probably the most succinct description of Trump-era (and probably Obama-era) Republicans I've seen.
I agree.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's interesting that the Trump worshippers here are avoiding this thread like the plague.
Yes it will, will it even exist? I think it will probably be the 80% that are fully on board with Trump that takes over but they wont have anyone like Trump to inspire them. What will happen to the other 20%. I think they'll wander away slowly, first mostly becoming independence and then joining the dems.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:46 AM   #21
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Another sign of the long prophesied, always imminent GOP meltdown? I doubt it. The party (and the country, for that matter) will weather the Trump storm. Hopefully, some important lessons will be learned and the party gets stronger -we need a strong two-party system. If not, it will slowly fractionate and change and the Dems will increase in power in the interim.

I agree, somewhat, with the idea that conservatives should be voting Dem in the short term -mostly to send a message that we are tired of the BS. Long term, we should be working to weed out the extremes (religious right, "alt-right," et.al.) in the GOP and return to conservative ideals. That process starts at the grassroots level, with individual conservatives like me who refuse to vote for extreme. Might take a while, but I believe that a fallow period will benefit the party long-term.

Where I see a problem is if the Dems use the Trump debacle to push forward a highly aggressive, Democratic Socialist agenda. If that happens, they are forcing conservatives to turn away from them.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:54 AM   #22
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GOP Strategist Rick Wilson: Trump Supporters ‘Want Anybody Who’s Darker Than a Latte Deported’

“They’re not happy about immigration of any kind. They don’t believe in the asylum process. They want to take and separate these families as a matter of deterrence and as a sort of theater of cruelty. I think it really doesn’t speak well to their moral standing.”

https://www.mediaite.com/online/gop-...atte-deported/
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:22 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Another sign of the long prophesied, always imminent GOP meltdown? I doubt it. The party (and the country, for that matter) will weather the Trump storm. Hopefully, some important lessons will be learned and the party gets stronger -we need a strong two-party system. If not, it will slowly fractionate and change and the Dems will increase in power in the interim.
I agree that the U.S. needs a strong 2-party system.

The one main disagreement I had with your post is the suggestion that it is the "Trump storm" that the republican party has to weather. The fact is, the GOP has had significant issues for years, long before Trump joined the republican primaries:

- Close association with the Christian evangelicals

- Close association with the NRA

- A rather large segment of 'tea partiers' in Congress

- Congress in the hands of people like Mitch "Oppose Obama regardless of whether his ideas make sense" McConnell, or the people who decide that voter suppression of minorities is preferable to actually offering policies that minorities might like, destroying any sense of bipartisanship, compromise or inclusiveness

In some ways, Trump is almost a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself. The rot has gone on for such a long period of time that I personally have doubts whether the Republican party CAN be saved.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I agree that the U.S. needs a strong 2-party system.

The one main disagreement I had with your post is the suggestion that it is the "Trump storm" that the republican party has to weather. The fact is, the GOP has had significant issues for years, long before Trump joined the republican primaries:

- Close association with the Christian evangelicals

- Close association with the NRA

- A rather large segment of 'tea partiers' in Congress

- Congress in the hands of people like Mitch "Oppose Obama regardless of whether his ideas make sense" McConnell, or the people who decide that voter suppression of minorities is preferable to actually offering policies that minorities might like, destroying any sense of bipartisanship, compromise or inclusiveness

In some ways, Trump is almost a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself. The rot has gone on for such a long period of time that I personally have doubts whether the Republican party CAN be saved.
Oh, for sure; Trump is a symptom of the problems in the GOP. Totally agree on that. But I do think it can be saved because there are conservatives like me out there. I didn't vote for Trump and I don't support the crap coming out of the Religious Right, "alt-right," -the loony wing. I think people like me get drowned out by and lumped in with the loony wing. That's the lesson I'm hoping the GOP learns from all of this. The loony wing is vocal but they don't represent everyone. It's time to start listening to everyone else.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh, for sure; Trump is a symptom of the problems in the GOP. Totally agree on that. But I do think it can be saved because there are conservatives like me out there. I didn't vote for Trump and I don't support the crap coming out of the Religious Right, "alt-right," -the loony wing. I think people like me get drowned out by and lumped in with the loony wing. That's the lesson I'm hoping the GOP learns from all of this. The loony wing is vocal but they don't represent everyone. It's time to start listening to everyone else.
Unfortunately the loony wing is the mainstream at this point. Most conservatives support the loons as can be seen by voting results. Until that changes, decent rational conservatives are rightly considered the fringe of the party as mentioned in the OP.

I'm hoping Trump ends up being a unifier in a Lelouch of the Rebellion sort of way. Time shall tell
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh, for sure; Trump is a symptom of the problems in the GOP. Totally agree on that. But I do think it can be saved because there are conservatives like me out there. I didn't vote for Trump and I don't support the crap coming out of the Religious Right, "alt-right," -the loony wing. I think people like me get drowned out by and lumped in with the loony wing. That's the lesson I'm hoping the GOP learns from all of this. The loony wing is vocal but they don't represent everyone. It's time to start listening to everyone else.
Unfortunately, people like you only make up about 20% of the republican party now a days. Polling pretty consistently shows 80% of republicans have a favorable view of Trump.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:05 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh, for sure; Trump is a symptom of the problems in the GOP. Totally agree on that. But I do think it can be saved because there are conservatives like me out there. I didn't vote for Trump and I don't support the crap coming out of the Religious Right, "alt-right," -the loony wing. I think people like me get drowned out by and lumped in with the loony wing. That's the lesson I'm hoping the GOP learns from all of this. The loony wing is vocal but they don't represent everyone. It's time to start listening to everyone else.
Trump currently holds an approval rating of around 90% among republicans. This is only about a year after Trump labeled neo-nazis as 'fine people'. This is AFTER finding out that the Trump administration is locking children in cages. And it after a year of almost continuous scandals coming from his administration.

If 90% of republicans look at all that and give their thumbs up, do you really think the party as a whole has the ability to change? To recognize that being the party of racism is a bad thing?
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Unfortunately the loony wing is the mainstream at this point. Most conservatives support the loons as can be seen by voting results. Until that changes, decent rational conservatives are rightly considered the fringe of the party as mentioned in the OP.

I'm hoping Trump ends up being a unifier in a Lelouch of the Rebellion sort of way. Time shall tell
Moderate Conservatives of the type likely to oppose Trump have been changing to Democrat for decades and it’s been a good 10-15 years since they made up a significant part of the Republican base. I’d suggest that a significant fraction of the “anti-Trump Democrats” criticizing Trump in these forums were Conservative/Republican voters 20 years ago.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:23 PM   #29
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I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.

The kids were not or are not being held in cages. The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.

Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist. Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race. Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.

I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.

What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?

Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?

Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.
One half may very well be right

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
The kids were not or are not being held in cages.
Well yes, they are.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.
Well that's not true as well. Asylum seekers' children are being held in cages as wll

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
Yes it is, and furthermore it's part of a much broader and well documented pattern of behaviour over decades which clearly demonstrates that he is.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race.
I don't know, but in that case they'd be racist.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.
No, he clearly said that some white supremacists are fine people - no matter how you try to reinvent it.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.
Well maybe if they stopped being racists, they wouldn't be called on it so often.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?
It was harpooned by the GOP majority in the House and Senate.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?
Still fighting in Syria where it has been.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
....and yet still growth isn't as good as under Obama despite a deficit-bloating tax cut.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #31
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.
Okay, I will. I figure both ends of the political spectrum have their loony fringe elements. I also figure that only the Right have made their loony fringe mainstream.

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The kids were not or are not being held in cages.
Denies children are being held in cages…

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The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.
… goes on to literally describe a cage.

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Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist. Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race. Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.
Nicely put. I’m sure the other forum conservatives are glad to have you aboard and look forward to more statements like this in support of your shared ideology.

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I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.
Your criticisms of the Left, however, are a breath of fresh air.

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Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
Please describe in detail how exactly Trump has “accomplished” those things, and please identify the metrics being used to quantify these “accomplishments” that differ from the ones we were told were inaccurate when we had job growth and low unemployment under Obama.

Last edited by johnny karate; 11th July 2018 at 02:08 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:02 PM   #32
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
How about saying that people who were born in "****hole" countries are undesirables, not welcome here, the American Dream is not for people like them? When Trump expresses that kind of demeaning and derogatory stereotyping and then also suggests they should get second-class treatment, it seems to me the only way anyone could say he isn't a racist is by redefining the word. What's your definition?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:04 PM   #33
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.
Last time I checked, the 'left' wasn't trying to justify keeping kids in cages, or trying to excuse Trump calling neo-nazis "fine people".

Quote:
The kids were not or are not being held in cages. The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as wallsso they could be observed and kept safe.
Interesting tactic... so you said the kids aren't being kept in cages, then you pretty much describe a cage when you are talking about how the kids are kept.

And you do realize that prior to Trump, people were often not actually detained. And when they were detained, efforts were made to keep families together.
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Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
Uhhh... yes it is.

Pretty much by definition a neo-Nazi cannot be a fine person, since they are racist scum bangs.
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Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race.
There may or may not be minorities who believe in superiority of their own particular race/clan/group. But its an irrelevant point, because there are currently no mainstream Democratic elected officials saying those are "fine people" despite their views.

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President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors...
Not sure why exactly a person needs to be "fair" to a neo-Nazi. They hold views that should be considered repugnant to anyone in civilized society.
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by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.
First of all, those statues and the confederate flags are themselves symbols of racism and oppression. Basically they are giving a big middle finger to black people, by saying "We think we were right to keep you as slaves, but we lost the war so the best we can do is glorify the struggle to keep you as chattel".

Secondly, keep in mind that those were not just ordinary protests:
- The rally was advertised to white nationalists as a "unite the right"
- People at the rally were chanting anti-Semitic slogans
- There were swastikas at the rally

Not sure about you, but if I'm anywhere and I see someone break out Nazi flags and chanting anti-jewish slogans, I will leave immediately, regardless of whatever reason I happen to be there.

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What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?
Gun control advocates are still holding rallies to get their message out. One was just held this past weekend. Unfortunately, with a republican president and congress (supported by an NRA that has suspicious links to Russia...) it is unlikely much can be done.

http://abc13.com/community-events/ma...ntrol/3729436/

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Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?
Probably because Obama managed to get rid of much of Isis' power.

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Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
In general, much of what happens in the economy in a president's first year is due to the policies of the previous administration. Yes, last year saw increases in employment, GDP and the stock market. But you know what? We also saw that under Obama too. In fact, did you know that job growth was actually HIGHER in the last year of Obama's tenure than it was in the first year under Trump?

Of course, now that Trump has been around for over a year and has actually started to enact his policies, what do we see? Stock prices have pretty much leveled off (we don't see Trump bragging about the DOW any more, do we), and the federal debt has gone up by around $1 trillion. And who knows what will happen once Trump's trade war starts to expand.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:31 PM   #34
ThoughtIsFree
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[quote]The Don;12358260]One half may very well be right /QUOTE]



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Well yes, they are.
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive. These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt? Is a play ground at a school considered a cage, the play grounds are fenced in so the children are kept safe. You want to say the children are being abused so you think of the place they're being kept as a cage like a dog would be kept in a pound. It's a secured area so the children are safe. Could you call it a cell and not cage? Could you call the space a secured area? No you want it to sound abusive so you call it a cage.



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Well that's not true as well. Asylum seekers' children are being held in cages as wll
I'll give the same reply as above. I call it a secured safe area and not a cage.



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Yes it is, and furthermore it's part of a much broader and well documented pattern of behaviour over decades which clearly demonstrates that he is.
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.

I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?



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I don't know, but in that case they'd be racist.
Yes we have racists in all races, plenty to go around.



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No, he clearly said that some white supremacists are fine people - no matter how you try to reinvent it.
Still don't agree that would make Trump a racist. By saying fine people does not say you feel being a racist is something you condone. Can't a racist have good traits?



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Well maybe if they stopped being racists, they wouldn't be called on it so often.
I don't see it as being racist so being called on it is ridiculous.



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It was harpooned by the GOP majority in the House and Senate.
That doesn't mean you have to quit fighting for what you believe in.



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Still fighting in Syria where it has been.
No ISIS has caused many problems for people all over the world with causing terror and death.
Trump has had some strikes on ISIS that killed numerous Isis leaders. He's doing a fine job helping contain Isis.



Quote:
...and yet still growth isn't as good as under Obama despite a deficit-bloating tax cut.
You'll need to show me facts and statistics for what you're claiming. I could post a chart for statistics showing job growth during Trumps Presidency but I'll wait for you to show me what you've got from the Obama years.

Last edited by ThoughtIsFree; 11th July 2018 at 01:33 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #35
Fudbucker
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.

The kids were not or are not being held in cages. The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.

Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist. Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race. Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.

I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.

What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?

Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?

Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
This might not be the right place for you.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 11th July 2018 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #36
ThoughtIsFree
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Last time I checked, the 'left' wasn't trying to justify keeping kids in cages, or trying to excuse Trump calling neo-nazis "fine people".
I explained by reasoning in above post. Do I need to repeat, I will if you want me too.


Quote:
Interesting tactic... so you said the kids aren't being kept in cages, then you pretty much describe a cage when you are talking about how the kids are kept.
It's all in the way you want to view the secured area. I look at it as a good place to keep the children so they are safe. It's a large area with other children to keep them company. I don't view a fenced in yard at a home as a cage or a school play ground as a cage. These children were placed in a difficult postilion by their parents who chose to break the law.

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And you do realize that prior to Trump, people were often not actually detained. And when they were detained, efforts were made to keep families together.
They were treated differently because the situation was different. If I'm not mistaken there were less children and Trump is trying to put a stop to illegal immigration and Obama didn't want to be as strict as Trump is going to be.

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Uhhh... yes it is.

Pretty much by definition a neo-Nazi cannot be a fine person, since they are racist scum bangs.
That's your opinion not mine. I'm not a racist and don't condone being a racist but many people are and people I've loved and are or were family. Years ago racism was very much accepted. Still is in some circles.

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There may or may not be minorities who believe in superiority of their own particular race/clan/group. But its an irrelevant point, because there are currently no mainstream Democratic elected officials saying those are "fine people" despite their views.
How can you be certain there isn't any Democrats that are racists? lol


Quote:
Not sure why exactly a person needs to be "fair" to a neo-Nazi. They hold views that should be considered repugnant to anyone in civilized society.
As far as I know I've never been around a neo-nazi or talked with one. I need to read up on what they stand for.

Quote:
First of all, those statues and the confederate flags are themselves symbols of racism and oppression. Basically they are giving a big middle finger to black people, by saying "We think we were right to keep you as slaves, but we lost the war so the best we can do is glorify the struggle to keep you as chattel".

Secondly, keep in mind that those were not just ordinary protests:
- The rally was advertised to white nationalists as a "unite the right"
- People at the rally were chanting anti-Semitic slogans
- There were swastikas at the rally

Not sure about you, but if I'm anywhere and I see someone break out Nazi flags and chanting anti-jewish slogans, I will leave immediately, regardless of whatever reason I happen to be there.
I do know many of the people who had statues were racists so it's good they came down
I would need to research all that took place at the rallies and take a look at what Trump said and put it in context.. I'll research this and get back to you on what I conclude.


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Gun control advocates are still holding rallies to get their message out. One was just held this past weekend. Unfortunately, with a republican president and congress (supported by an NRA that has suspicious links to Russia...) it is unlikely much can be done.
I'm for better security at our schools and we have many things that can be done to try and prevent school shootings or any mass shootings with a gun. I'm not certain banning certain guns is the answer to our problems.



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Probably because Obama managed to get rid of much of Isis' power.
Will you give me some proof of this claim?


Quote:
In general, much of what happens in the economy in a president's first year is due to the policies of the previous administration. Yes, last year saw increases in employment, GDP and the stock market. But you know what? We also saw that under Obama too. In fact, did you know that job growth was actually HIGHER in the last year of Obama's tenure than it was in the first year under Trump?
Can you post some charts (statistics) showing this to be true?

Quote:
Of course, now that Trump has been around for over a year and has actually started to enact his policies, what do we see? Stock prices have pretty much leveled off (we don't see Trump bragging about the DOW any more, do we), and the federal debt has gone up by around $1 trillion. And who knows what will happen once Trump's trade war starts to expand.
I agree, we're going to have to wait and see what's comes out of the tariffs (tradewar) Time will tell if it's good or bad, Trump took a big risk.

Having trouble getting this to post, hope I don't lose it. Had to take your rally link off for this to post.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:11 PM   #37
ThoughtIsFree
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
How about saying that people who were born in "****hole" countries are undesirables, not welcome here, the American Dream is not for people like them? When Trump expresses that kind of demeaning and derogatory stereotyping and then also suggests they should get second-class treatment, it seems to me the only way anyone could say he isn't a racist is by redefining the word. What's your definition?
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:13 PM   #38
ThoughtIsFree
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This might not be the right place for you.
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'm for better security at our schools and we have many things that can be done to try and prevent school shootings or any mass shootings with a gun. I'm not certain banning certain guns is the answer to our problems.
You are shifting the goal posts a bit (on this subject, at least). You've gone from implying that liberals have stopped focusing on gun control to disagreeing with a certain aspect of gun control. (There are many other aspects such as universal background checks, improved background checks, red-flag/extreme risk protection orders, and information handling, along with many others.)

For what it is worth, the position that Brett Kavanaugh has taken on firearms related rulings has been one of the most analyzed aspects of his potential appointment to the SC. We liberals are paying very close attention to that.

There is little we can do about it - the GOP has the votes to get him in and won't allow a filibuster. But that does not mean that we are not paying attention or have moved on from the issue.

ETA: And there has been significant action at the State level. Quite a few states have passed red-flag laws, and widened background checks. A number of bills that would h ave loosened firearms regulations have been defeated. There was quite a lot of state-level legislative activity after the Stoneman-Douglass shooting and the groundwork after that event continues to make progress.

Last edited by crescent; 11th July 2018 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #40
phunk
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
Too many or too serious flaws are what make someone not a fine person. Being racist enough to participate in a neo-nazi rally is a pretty damn massive flaw. So no, not fine people.
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