ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags conservatism , conservatives , donald trump , george will , Max Boot , republican party

Reply
Old 11th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #41
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,311
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.
Okay, I will. I figure both ends of the political spectrum have their loony fringe elements. I also figure that only the Right have made their loony fringe mainstream.

Quote:
The kids were not or are not being held in cages.
Denies children are being held in cages…

Quote:
The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.
… goes on to literally describe a cage.

Quote:
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist. Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race. Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.
Nicely put. I’m sure the other forum conservatives are glad to have you aboard and look forward to more statements like this in support of your shared ideology.

Quote:
I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.
Your criticisms of the Left, however, are a breath of fresh air.

Quote:
Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
Please describe in detail how exactly Trump has “accomplished” those things, and please identify the metrics being used to quantify these “accomplishments” that differ from the ones we were told were inaccurate when we had job growth and low unemployment under Obama.

Last edited by johnny karate; 11th July 2018 at 02:08 PM. Reason: typo
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 01:02 PM   #42
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,168
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
How about saying that people who were born in "****hole" countries are undesirables, not welcome here, the American Dream is not for people like them? When Trump expresses that kind of demeaning and derogatory stereotyping and then also suggests they should get second-class treatment, it seems to me the only way anyone could say he isn't a racist is by redefining the word. What's your definition?
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 01:04 PM   #43
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,024
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.
Last time I checked, the 'left' wasn't trying to justify keeping kids in cages, or trying to excuse Trump calling neo-nazis "fine people".

Quote:
The kids were not or are not being held in cages. The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as wallsso they could be observed and kept safe.
Interesting tactic... so you said the kids aren't being kept in cages, then you pretty much describe a cage when you are talking about how the kids are kept.

And you do realize that prior to Trump, people were often not actually detained. And when they were detained, efforts were made to keep families together.
Quote:
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
Uhhh... yes it is.

Pretty much by definition a neo-Nazi cannot be a fine person, since they are racist scum bangs.
Quote:
Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race.
There may or may not be minorities who believe in superiority of their own particular race/clan/group. But its an irrelevant point, because there are currently no mainstream Democratic elected officials saying those are "fine people" despite their views.

Quote:
President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors...
Not sure why exactly a person needs to be "fair" to a neo-Nazi. They hold views that should be considered repugnant to anyone in civilized society.
Quote:
by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.
First of all, those statues and the confederate flags are themselves symbols of racism and oppression. Basically they are giving a big middle finger to black people, by saying "We think we were right to keep you as slaves, but we lost the war so the best we can do is glorify the struggle to keep you as chattel".

Secondly, keep in mind that those were not just ordinary protests:
- The rally was advertised to white nationalists as a "unite the right"
- People at the rally were chanting anti-Semitic slogans
- There were swastikas at the rally

Not sure about you, but if I'm anywhere and I see someone break out Nazi flags and chanting anti-jewish slogans, I will leave immediately, regardless of whatever reason I happen to be there.

Quote:
What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?
Gun control advocates are still holding rallies to get their message out. One was just held this past weekend. Unfortunately, with a republican president and congress (supported by an NRA that has suspicious links to Russia...) it is unlikely much can be done.

http://abc13.com/community-events/ma...ntrol/3729436/

Quote:
Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?
Probably because Obama managed to get rid of much of Isis' power.

Quote:
Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
In general, much of what happens in the economy in a president's first year is due to the policies of the previous administration. Yes, last year saw increases in employment, GDP and the stock market. But you know what? We also saw that under Obama too. In fact, did you know that job growth was actually HIGHER in the last year of Obama's tenure than it was in the first year under Trump?

Of course, now that Trump has been around for over a year and has actually started to enact his policies, what do we see? Stock prices have pretty much leveled off (we don't see Trump bragging about the DOW any more, do we), and the federal debt has gone up by around $1 trillion. And who knows what will happen once Trump's trade war starts to expand.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 01:31 PM   #44
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
[quote]The Don;12358260]One half may very well be right /QUOTE]



Quote:
Well yes, they are.
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive. These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt? Is a play ground at a school considered a cage, the play grounds are fenced in so the children are kept safe. You want to say the children are being abused so you think of the place they're being kept as a cage like a dog would be kept in a pound. It's a secured area so the children are safe. Could you call it a cell and not cage? Could you call the space a secured area? No you want it to sound abusive so you call it a cage.



Quote:
Well that's not true as well. Asylum seekers' children are being held in cages as wll
I'll give the same reply as above. I call it a secured safe area and not a cage.



Quote:
Yes it is, and furthermore it's part of a much broader and well documented pattern of behaviour over decades which clearly demonstrates that he is.
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.

I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?



Quote:
I don't know, but in that case they'd be racist.
Yes we have racists in all races, plenty to go around.



Quote:
No, he clearly said that some white supremacists are fine people - no matter how you try to reinvent it.
Still don't agree that would make Trump a racist. By saying fine people does not say you feel being a racist is something you condone. Can't a racist have good traits?



Quote:
Well maybe if they stopped being racists, they wouldn't be called on it so often.
I don't see it as being racist so being called on it is ridiculous.



Quote:
It was harpooned by the GOP majority in the House and Senate.
That doesn't mean you have to quit fighting for what you believe in.



Quote:
Still fighting in Syria where it has been.
No ISIS has caused many problems for people all over the world with causing terror and death.
Trump has had some strikes on ISIS that killed numerous Isis leaders. He's doing a fine job helping contain Isis.



Quote:
...and yet still growth isn't as good as under Obama despite a deficit-bloating tax cut.
You'll need to show me facts and statistics for what you're claiming. I could post a chart for statistics showing job growth during Trumps Presidency but I'll wait for you to show me what you've got from the Obama years.

Last edited by ThoughtIsFree; 11th July 2018 at 01:33 PM. Reason: typo
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #45
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I see the left as the loons. Liberals see the right as the loons, go figure.

The kids were not or are not being held in cages. The children that were being held or are being held because their parents broke our laws by coming across our borders illegally are or were being secured in large areas with chain length fencing as walls so they could be observed and kept safe.

Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist. Do you not think there are plenty of minorities who would love to be the superior race and dominate over the white race. Read up on President Obama's religious views and get back to me. President Trump was just trying to be fair to all of the protestors by saying even a fine person can be protesting in the Southern States in support of not taking down statues and their confederate flags etc.

I'm so tired of hearing the same ole BS about Trump and the Republican party.

What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?

Where's Isis these days. Nothing about Isis, why is that?

Job growth in America and lower unemployment, not a peep about the good things Trump is accomplishing, just belly aching and a lot of B.S. So tiring!
This might not be the right place for you.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 11th July 2018 at 02:07 PM.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #46
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Last time I checked, the 'left' wasn't trying to justify keeping kids in cages, or trying to excuse Trump calling neo-nazis "fine people".
I explained by reasoning in above post. Do I need to repeat, I will if you want me too.


Quote:
Interesting tactic... so you said the kids aren't being kept in cages, then you pretty much describe a cage when you are talking about how the kids are kept.
It's all in the way you want to view the secured area. I look at it as a good place to keep the children so they are safe. It's a large area with other children to keep them company. I don't view a fenced in yard at a home as a cage or a school play ground as a cage. These children were placed in a difficult postilion by their parents who chose to break the law.

Quote:
And you do realize that prior to Trump, people were often not actually detained. And when they were detained, efforts were made to keep families together.
They were treated differently because the situation was different. If I'm not mistaken there were less children and Trump is trying to put a stop to illegal immigration and Obama didn't want to be as strict as Trump is going to be.

Quote:
Uhhh... yes it is.

Pretty much by definition a neo-Nazi cannot be a fine person, since they are racist scum bangs.
That's your opinion not mine. I'm not a racist and don't condone being a racist but many people are and people I've loved and are or were family. Years ago racism was very much accepted. Still is in some circles.

Quote:
There may or may not be minorities who believe in superiority of their own particular race/clan/group. But its an irrelevant point, because there are currently no mainstream Democratic elected officials saying those are "fine people" despite their views.
How can you be certain there isn't any Democrats that are racists? lol


Quote:
Not sure why exactly a person needs to be "fair" to a neo-Nazi. They hold views that should be considered repugnant to anyone in civilized society.
As far as I know I've never been around a neo-nazi or talked with one. I need to read up on what they stand for.

Quote:
First of all, those statues and the confederate flags are themselves symbols of racism and oppression. Basically they are giving a big middle finger to black people, by saying "We think we were right to keep you as slaves, but we lost the war so the best we can do is glorify the struggle to keep you as chattel".

Secondly, keep in mind that those were not just ordinary protests:
- The rally was advertised to white nationalists as a "unite the right"
- People at the rally were chanting anti-Semitic slogans
- There were swastikas at the rally

Not sure about you, but if I'm anywhere and I see someone break out Nazi flags and chanting anti-jewish slogans, I will leave immediately, regardless of whatever reason I happen to be there.
I do know many of the people who had statues were racists so it's good they came down
I would need to research all that took place at the rallies and take a look at what Trump said and put it in context.. I'll research this and get back to you on what I conclude.


Quote:
Gun control advocates are still holding rallies to get their message out. One was just held this past weekend. Unfortunately, with a republican president and congress (supported by an NRA that has suspicious links to Russia...) it is unlikely much can be done.
I'm for better security at our schools and we have many things that can be done to try and prevent school shootings or any mass shootings with a gun. I'm not certain banning certain guns is the answer to our problems.



Quote:
Probably because Obama managed to get rid of much of Isis' power.
Will you give me some proof of this claim?


Quote:
In general, much of what happens in the economy in a president's first year is due to the policies of the previous administration. Yes, last year saw increases in employment, GDP and the stock market. But you know what? We also saw that under Obama too. In fact, did you know that job growth was actually HIGHER in the last year of Obama's tenure than it was in the first year under Trump?
Can you post some charts (statistics) showing this to be true?

Quote:
Of course, now that Trump has been around for over a year and has actually started to enact his policies, what do we see? Stock prices have pretty much leveled off (we don't see Trump bragging about the DOW any more, do we), and the federal debt has gone up by around $1 trillion. And who knows what will happen once Trump's trade war starts to expand.
I agree, we're going to have to wait and see what's comes out of the tariffs (tradewar) Time will tell if it's good or bad, Trump took a big risk.

Having trouble getting this to post, hope I don't lose it. Had to take your rally link off for this to post.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:11 PM   #47
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
How about saying that people who were born in "****hole" countries are undesirables, not welcome here, the American Dream is not for people like them? When Trump expresses that kind of demeaning and derogatory stereotyping and then also suggests they should get second-class treatment, it seems to me the only way anyone could say he isn't a racist is by redefining the word. What's your definition?
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:13 PM   #48
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This might not be the right place for you.
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #49
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,352
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
What happened to the lefts fight for gun control and kids not being shot and killed while at school?

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'm for better security at our schools and we have many things that can be done to try and prevent school shootings or any mass shootings with a gun. I'm not certain banning certain guns is the answer to our problems.
You are shifting the goal posts a bit (on this subject, at least). You've gone from implying that liberals have stopped focusing on gun control to disagreeing with a certain aspect of gun control. (There are many other aspects such as universal background checks, improved background checks, red-flag/extreme risk protection orders, and information handling, along with many others.)

For what it is worth, the position that Brett Kavanaugh has taken on firearms related rulings has been one of the most analyzed aspects of his potential appointment to the SC. We liberals are paying very close attention to that.

There is little we can do about it - the GOP has the votes to get him in and won't allow a filibuster. But that does not mean that we are not paying attention or have moved on from the issue.

ETA: And there has been significant action at the State level. Quite a few states have passed red-flag laws, and widened background checks. A number of bills that would h ave loosened firearms regulations have been defeated. There was quite a lot of state-level legislative activity after the Stoneman-Douglass shooting and the groundwork after that event continues to make progress.

Last edited by crescent; 11th July 2018 at 02:33 PM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #50
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,721
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
Too many or too serious flaws are what make someone not a fine person. Being racist enough to participate in a neo-nazi rally is a pretty damn massive flaw. So no, not fine people.
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:18 PM   #51
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,024
[quote=ThoughtIsFree;12358310
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? [/quote]
No, because a yard with fencing is not designed to prevent people from, you know, actually leaving. Nor are there generally guards watching people inside the yard.

Quote:
I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive.
Given the fact that the children are unable to, you know, head down to the mall, go outside and play whenever they want, etc. then I'd say they're held captive.

Quote:
These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt?
Here's an idea... why don't they either:
1) stop arresting people for what is essentially considered a petty crime and do what is typically done for minor crimes, which is not jail them

2) in cases where a person MUST be confined, keep families together as a unit.

Quote:
You want to say the children are being abused...
Actually the head of the American Academy of Pediatrics (you know, actual doctors who know something about children) has said:
"Children separated from their parents at the border are experiencing something so traumatic... that it affects their brain chemistry in a way that amounts to child abuse."

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...b0783ae12bfe6d
Quote:
Could you call it a cell and not cage?
Ummm... do you really think "cell" is a better term? The use of 'cell' is generally associated with prison... yet these kids are not themselves charged with a crime.

Quote:
Quote:
Yes it is, and furthermore it's part of a much broader and well documented pattern of behaviour over decades which clearly demonstrates that he is.
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.
Lets see:

- Getting charged (multiple times!) for racial discrimination practices when renting out apartments
- Making a statement about how black people are 'lazy', and he didn't want them counting his money.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...areer-and-life

Quote:
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
If the group of protesters is composed of nothing but neo-nazis, KKK members, and the like, then calling any of them "fine people" is racist.
Quote:
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
There is a difference between a flaw (like farting in the bed) and being a neo-Nazi. Being a neo-Nazi is something that definitely crosses the line from merely "flaw" to being something to be condemned.

It should also be pointed out that those who participated in the neo-Nazi rally can't claim "I didn't know any better". This isn't some casual racist attitude that someone's 90 year old grandmother might have because of the era she grew up in... these are people who actively perpetrate hate, to the point where they actually go out in public waving Nazi flags.


Quote:
Re: Push for Gun control laws...

That doesn't mean you have to quit fighting for what you believe in.
Ummm... who said they quit? In fact, I posted an article about a gun control rally that just occurred this past week.

Quote:
Trump has had some strikes on ISIS that killed numerous Isis leaders.
And so did Obama.
Quote:
Re: Economic success of Trump...
You'll need to show me facts and statistics for what you're claiming. I could post a chart for statistics showing job growth during Trumps Presidency but I'll wait for you to show me what you've got from the Obama years.
Lets see:

Jobs added in 2017 (In which Trump was president for most of the year): 2.188 million

Jobs added in 2016 (The last full year Obama was president): 2.24 million

Jobs added in 2015 (Obama was president at that time too): 2.7 million

Looks like Trump hasn't been as great a job creator as you think.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjo.../#10c2af6125ab

Or how about the stock market? In the first year that Trump was in office, the Dow went up 26%. Sounds good. But in the first year that Obama was president, the stock market went up 33%.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-stock-market/

As a side note (and in an attempt to get this thread back on track)... we really must thank you. The opening post of this thread referred to a former republican who had become disillusioned with the GOP. Now, here you are, defending Trump, but you do so by saying a "cage isn't a cage", and relying on all sorts of incorrect data. You are a perfect embodiment of the current GOP mind set, and if the current mind set is "a cage isn't a cage", then its evidence that the republican party has gone too far off the deep end to be redeemed.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:23 PM   #52
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:54 PM   #53
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 02:57 PM   #54
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
Do you believe Obama was born in the U.S.?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:08 PM   #55
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,168
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.
Abject BS. No, he asked why we're letting people in from ****hole countries. I take it that you also automatically assume that people from ****hole countries have nothing positive to offer? I think I see the problem.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:16 PM   #56
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 11,988
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Beck is like Rush and Dershowitz. They are whores and devoid of any real principles.
Nonsense. Dershowitz defends the guilty as a matter of principle. His oldest client is Israel.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:21 PM   #57
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,798
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Unfortunately the loony wing is the mainstream at this point. Most conservatives support the loons as can be seen by voting results. Until that changes, decent rational conservatives are rightly considered the fringe of the party as mentioned in the OP.
A good example of the above would be the California 11th congressional district where the voters chose John Fitzgerald as their GOP candidate. He is a holocaust denier and recently there have been robocalls for his campaign saying that Jews are taking over the world and must be stopped.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:52 PM   #58
Lurch
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 454
That doofus Trump running about on the world stage, smashing up alliances and cozying up to dictators and instituting ruinous trade wars, while the lawmakers in his Party sit idly by and watch their country become a pariah is just one good reason for any half-aware conservative to NOT vote GOP.

In certain respects the US has effectively become a dictatorship. Your one-man wrecking crew is holding over 300 million hostage to his ignorance and petulance. Aided and abetted by goddamned cowards who value their 'jobs' (as if they're doing them!) over their country.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:57 PM   #59
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,393
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.

If other countries do it then they are wrong too. America is supposed to be a place the downtrodden can go to. Immigration policies that rank people are by definition exclusionary and therefore the opposite of allowing in the downtrodden. That makes it more like some sort of country club where people who all think and look alike can delude themselves into thinking they are superior.



I believe in a fully open border Schengen type system where all inhabitants of North America can migrate at will. But what I want is a pipe dream. Do you think I'm evil, naive or something else?
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 05:40 PM   #60
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,458
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sophistry. Dudalb consistently uses this kind of language to lash out at conservatives in pretty much every thread where conservatives try to participate. I don't need it rationalized, I just want it to stop.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or I could speak up about it. Ignoring hate doesn't make it go away. Purely in the interest of forum quality, we should not ignore this kind of thing.

Put half the active membership on ignore, and you start to believe you've got a pretty good forum here. But that's not what a newcomer sees. They see all the noise, and maybe they have a hard time finding a signal worth sticking around for. Or they see all the noise, and conclude (rightly) that this is a forum that tolerates that kind of thing, and so they start contributing more of the same. You put the one new voice on ignore, and believe you've put the forum right again.
I don't know much about what he's been doing in other threads (the 'suspended' tag gives me a clue) as I've not been following the forums as much as I used to. Thus I judged what he said here that you objected to. As the thread is about a prominent conservative's reaction to Trump's power over Republicans, it wouldn't make much sense to read dubalb's words as meaning conservatives. Perhaps that is what he meant, but it is not what he said.

If you were a liberal making the exact same argument, it would (and has been) roundly called 'tone policing', a 'SJW' trait I'm told. While it would of course be clearer without the harshness, it's difficult to do that while people are supporting blatant (and moronically constructed) lies and abhorrent behavior. As someone recently said, it's hard to pour poison down people's mouths and not have some come back up at you. (There is the rationalization you said you didn't want, my previous post not actually having one.) Indeed, there is utility in there being social ramifications for supporting, or even defending, the bad behavior of the Republicans (and others). While more mundane disagreements should be dispassionate, once we're to the point of supporting child molesters and defending putting kids in cages with no mechanism in place to return them to family, that deserves called out. Hell if I know exactly where that line is, but it's far enough back from Trump supporters right now that the exact placement of it is moot.

Your criticism is, appropriately enough, something that conservatives who value their own personal responsibility might hold against Trump. Is it your contention that you will personally hold this forum to a much higher standard than you hold the president? That seems like an odd choice. Conservatives and anti-liberals on these very boards still insist that liberals view Obama as a 'mesiha' with nary a peep from you, yet 'Trump worshipers' without even calling all conservatives that is your line?

The highlighted is interesting. It's what a lot of us liberals, and a lot of conservatives like Max Boot, are saying. But we tend to limit it to more irrational, harmful hates and evil actions. Hating bad things isn't inherently bad.

If you really want to make the forum more civil, you need to apply that more evenly. Check out the Israel or Holocaust denial threads. Hell, check any thread where a dog is yapping about who is thirsty. I wish you luck.

Although, calling out abject ******** using evidence in no uncertain terms is kind of the entire point of these forums. That now you find yourself aligned more with those on the receiving end of the critical thinking beat-down might be a humbling experience, and I'm sure some flak crosses the line, but if you're going to stomp your feet and show how your refusal to engage in substantive discussion of the thread topic is a principled stand, let me see if I have my anti-liberal terminology down, if you are going to virtue signal instead, well, look at the esteemed Soviet-style Communist or 9/11 Truther members for some pointers. They're great at it.

I don't think you're completely off base, and I have admired some of your calling out in the past (when logger was all for disenfranchisement). It just seems odd and misplaced that the phrase 'Trump worshipers' is the line for you. Maybe it is the straw that broke the camel's back, but it is still weird.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 08:53 PM   #61
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,352
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This might not be the right place for you.
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
Fud, you scared him (or her) off!

We didn't even get TIF to the secret ISF initiation ritual with the the surprisingly sexy but doomed goat. That's the best part!
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 10:44 PM   #62
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,189
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you believe Obama was born in the U.S.?
Do you believe that everything bad that happened in the Obama administration's 8 years was "Bush's fault"?

Or maybe a better question might be if you think nothing bad ever happened when Obama was president?

Trump has his faults and sometimes I think he should be banned from Twitter, but he's done some good, especially with the economy and the jury is out on the "trade war" and NATO.

FYI, I'm from Hawaii and when our (at the time) republican governor confirmed that Obama's birth certificate was legit, that was good enough for me.

Last edited by Joecool; 11th July 2018 at 10:56 PM.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 12:07 AM   #63
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 24,984
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive. These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt? Is a play ground at a school considered a cage, the play grounds are fenced in so the children are kept safe. You want to say the children are being abused so you think of the place they're being kept as a cage like a dog would be kept in a pound. It's a secured area so the children are safe. Could you call it a cell and not cage? Could you call the space a secured area? No you want it to sound abusive so you call it a cage.
If the children are being held against their will and are unable to leave the enclosure that is surrounded by caged material then it's a cage.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'll give the same reply as above. I call it a secured safe area and not a cage.
Then you'd be wrong

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.
They are well documented in other threads.


Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
For me being a white supremacist is a deal-breaker. No matter what other virtues they may have, they're not a fine person.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Yes we have racists in all races, plenty to go around.
Except you just provided a hypothetical.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Still don't agree that would make Trump a racist. By saying fine people does not say you feel being a racist is something you condone. Can't a racist have good traits?
They may, but being a racist means that they cannot be a "fine person" IMO.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:08 AM   #64
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,024
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Do you believe that everything bad that happened in the Obama administration's 8 years was "Bush's fault"?

Or maybe a better question might be if you think nothing bad ever happened when Obama was president?
I wasn't the poster that was asked, but I'll take a crack at it...

No, not everything that was bad during Obama's tenure was "bush's fault". And not everything good that happened was due to Obama.

I cannot blame Obama for the recession and huge deficit, since those were related to economic problems that had its origins from before he was elected. But he did make mistakes. For example, the 'fast and furious' gun scandal should have been handled better. And Obama himself has said that his biggest mistake was not handling the aftermath of the Libyan war properly.
Quote:
Trump has his faults and sometimes I think he should be banned from Twitter, but he's done some good, especially with the economy...
Uhhh.... no he hasn't.

As has been pointed out, the economy was already growing solidly by the time Trump got into power. It takes time to enact policies and have them become effective, so you can't really say Trump has done some good with the economy because most of what's happened has been a byproduct of the previous administration's policies.

What happens in 2018 and later is more of an indication of what Trump has done for the economy. And so far, we do have some new jobs added, but at the cost of a skyrocketing deficit and a stock market which is foundering. So at best, mixed results.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:10 AM   #65
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining. I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum. Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.

Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.

Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point. I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals. If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too. I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls. I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances. Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration

The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.

It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.

As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.

I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:38 AM   #66
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,024
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Quote:
This might not be the right place for you.
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Quote:
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.
Keep in mind that this forum is dedicated to skeptical thought, which means people generally like to follow evidence and logic. Unresearched opinions, or opinions based on bad evidence are generally not given much respect.

I suspect a majority of posters here foster left-of-center political views, but there are some that are right of center. I myself am Canadian (so obviously I couldn't vote in U.S. elections) but I voted for our federal Conservative (right of center) political party in the last few elections. Were I American back in the 80s I might have voted for Bush Sr.

However, being "conservative" shouldn't automatically mean someone is a Trump supporter, and if I were in the U.S. I would probably would have voted for Hillary in the last election and Obama in the previous ones. The reason? While the far-right likes to portray them as some sort of radical socialist/communists, they seem to have a fairly pragmatic approach to business and the economy. And, as this thread has suggested, a number of conservatives have migrated from the republican party not because their own views have changed, but because they feel the republican party has basically gone off the deep end. They didn't leave the Republican party, the republican party left them.

Your first posting here made several things that many people might consider blunders... you seem to be unaware of some basic facts, and some of your claims seem to be taken right out of a Trump Tweet/Fox news broadcast. (Given how toxic Trump is, I doubt anyone could really defend him using actual real facts anyways.) Hopefully you'll stick around (we can always use some variety of opinions here), learn the difference between being a principled conservative and being a Trump supporter, and how to defend your opinions using solid logic and evidence.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:46 AM   #67
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,352
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do.
Your first post in this thread made five points - five different subjects.

If I can make a suggestion, prioritize and only respond to comments on the high priority subjects. As threads move on, you can always go back and revisit the other subjects, but this way you are not stuck feeling like you need to reply to every comment on every subject.

I am liberal, but I am happy to discuss things politely and civilly with most conservatives. Although the board is mostly liberal, the conservatives here certainly make their presence known and defended.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:11 AM   #68
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining. I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum. Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.

Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.

Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point. I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals. If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too. I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls. I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances. Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration

The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.

It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.

As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.

I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
Stick around, you'll learn a lot.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:22 AM   #69
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that this forum is dedicated to skeptical thought, which means people generally like to follow evidence and logic. Unresearched opinions, or opinions based on bad evidence are generally not given much respect.

I suspect a majority of posters here foster left-of-center political views, but there are some that are right of center. I myself am Canadian (so obviously I couldn't vote in U.S. elections) but I voted for our federal Conservative (right of center) political party in the last few elections. Were I American back in the 80s I might have voted for Bush Sr.

However, being "conservative" shouldn't automatically mean someone is a Trump supporter, and if I were in the U.S. I would probably would have voted for Hillary in the last election and Obama in the previous ones. The reason? While the far-right likes to portray them as some sort of radical socialist/communists, they seem to have a fairly pragmatic approach to business and the economy. And, as this thread has suggested, a number of conservatives have migrated from the republican party not because their own views have changed, but because they feel the republican party has basically gone off the deep end. They didn't leave the Republican party, the republican party left them.

Your first posting here made several things that many people might consider blunders... you seem to be unaware of some basic facts, and some of your claims seem to be taken right out of a Trump Tweet/Fox news broadcast. (Given how toxic Trump is, I doubt anyone could really defend him using actual real facts anyways.) Hopefully you'll stick around (we can always use some variety of opinions here), learn the difference between being a principled conservative and being a Trump supporter, and how to defend your opinions using solid logic and evidence.
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #70
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Your first post in this thread made five points - five different subjects.

If I can make a suggestion, prioritize and only respond to comments on the high priority subjects. As threads move on, you can always go back and revisit the other subjects, but this way you are not stuck feeling like you need to reply to every comment on every subject.

I am liberal, but I am happy to discuss things politely and civilly with most conservatives. Although the board is mostly liberal, the conservatives here certainly make their presence known and defended.
Yes I realized my mistake after I logged off of the forum and gave this all more thought.

Thanks for this reply.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #71
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,538
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
Links can be put in your post if they are broken up. Other posters will be happy to fix them when they quote you. That’s how we roll around here.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:41 AM   #72
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,812
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
Trump, over the course of decades demonstrating racist behavior, shows he’s a racist.

Welcome to the forum.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #73
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,458
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the exact video I wanted to link to.

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:06 AM   #74
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining.
It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.

Quote:
I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum.
Pretty much every aspect of this presidency has been commented on. You should definitely read through other threads.

Quote:
Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.
Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds.

Quote:
Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.
You can put spaces in the links.

Quote:
Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point.
Children were being held in cages without their parents.

This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations: https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/174884...aration-border


Quote:
I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals.
No, those are actual cages.

Quote:
If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too.
Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.

Quote:
I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls.
A cage, in other words.

Quote:
I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances.
Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."

http://thehill.com/latino/396005-chi...parents-report

It's like something out of Kafka.

Quote:
Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration
"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?

Quote:
The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.
There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.


Quote:
It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.
Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya (as of Dec. 2017). What do you think about that?

Quote:
As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.
Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%: https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/nat...gdp_glance.htm


Quote:
I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.
"

Remind you of anyone?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:18 AM   #75
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Fud, you scared him (or her) off!

We didn't even get TIF to the secret ISF initiation ritual with the the surprisingly sexy but doomed goat. That's the best part!
You're lucky. I got the Stonecutter treatment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXtQMz1RGNw
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:26 AM   #76
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,189
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Remind you of anyone?
Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:34 AM   #77
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,996
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 11:37 AM   #78
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Links can be put in your post if they are broken up. Other posters will be happy to fix them when they quote you. That’s how we roll around here.
Thanks, I'll do this.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 11:42 AM   #79
ThoughtIsFree
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Midwest United States
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).
Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.
ThoughtIsFree is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 11:42 AM   #80
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,818
NVM, I might be wrong about how links work here.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:26 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.