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Old 7th July 2018, 05:00 AM   #1
shankara
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The Talmud

The author searched in the BABYLONIAN TALMUD, translated online (sefaria.org), for the source of a number of supposed quotes from the TALMUD, all paraphrased, listed on an internet forum. This contained around sixty quotes in total, none of which were directly quoted from the translated text of the Talmud.

Edited by Agatha:  copypasta snipped for rule 4. The original text can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...4r/the_talmud/

Last edited by Agatha; 8th July 2018 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:12 AM   #2
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TL;DR version: watch out for those sneaky conniving Jews who are always plotting to exploit everyone else.

At least, that's what I think OP meant...
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:17 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The author searched in the BABYLONIAN TALMUD, translated online (sefaria.org), for the source of a number of supposed quotes from the TALMUD, all paraphrased, listed on an internet forum. This contained around sixty quotes in total, none of which were directly quoted from the translated text of the Talmud.

Edited by Agatha:  snipped for rule 4
Im sure there’s a point yearning to be made in there somewhere. Perhaps if I leave some cake near the last para, it can be coaxed out...
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Last edited by Agatha; 8th July 2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 7th July 2018, 05:20 AM   #4
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Copypasta. Don't we just love it. The OP might want to have a little look at the rules before too long, particularly Rule 4.

What has any of this iron-aged Arab clap-trap got to do with the modern world?
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Old 7th July 2018, 07:25 AM   #5
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I see anti-Semites are still trying to pretend that the Talmud denounces Jesus.

The Talmud does not mention Jesus.
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Old 7th July 2018, 07:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The author searched in the BABYLONIAN TALMUD, translated online (sefaria.org), for the source of a number of supposed quotes from the TALMUD, all paraphrased, listed on an internet forum. This contained around sixty quotes in total, none of which were directly quoted from the translated text of the Talmud.
Maybe "the author" (you?) could provide some context wherein these supposed quotes were found? Or did you just make that up?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I hope this work will prove helpful to anyone in search of understanding.
Understanding of what?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
In a case when one found a lost item in a city where both Jews and gentiles reside, if the city has a majority of Jews he is obligated to proclaim his find. If there is a majority of gentiles he is not obligated to proclaim his find.
(BABA MEZIA 24a)
I went to look at the site you mentioned for that chapter and verse. Why did you decide to quote just two sentences out of a whole discussion?

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
TL;DR version: watch out for those sneaky conniving Jews who are always plotting to exploit everyone else.

At least, that's what I think OP meant...
After a sample of one: pretty much yeah.
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:55 AM   #7
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Cool

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I see anti-Semites are still trying to pretend that the Talmud denounces Jesus.

The Talmud does not mention Jesus.
The Talmud does mention Jesus, Gittin 57a
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The Talmud does mention Jesus, Gittin 57a
It probably mentions him in several places, pejoratively too. But these have been censored by Jews in fear of Christian persecution. See Jesus in the TalmudWP.

To later Jews Jesus was a heretic and disparaging comments about him are to be expected. These were later concealed as far as posssible for fear of Christian hostility
The first Christian censorship of the Talmud happened in the year 521. However, far better documented censorship began during the disputations of the Middle Ages. Advocates for the Catholic Church alleged that the Talmud contained blasphemous references to Jesus and his mother, Mary. Jewish apologists during the disputations said there were no references to Jesus in the Talmud, and claimed Joshua and its derivations was a common Jewish name, that they referred to other individuals. The disputations led to many of the references being removed (censored) from subsequent editions of the Talmud.
Yeshua is in fact a common name, and more than one person of that name is mentioned in the Talmud, so it isn't easy to work out who's who.

But what is the point you are trying to make?

Last edited by Craig B; 9th July 2018 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:33 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Maybe "the author" (you?) could provide some context wherein these supposed quotes were found? Or did you just make that up?
So I checked out a few of the quotes and some of them seem to be on their own and others surrounded by lengthy discussions. Of all those I looked at none seemed to be contradicted by the following discussions.

A short example:

'Rabba bar Avuh now asks Elijah another question: From where is it derived with regard to a naked person that he may not separate teruma? He replied: As it is written: “And He see no unseemly thing in you” (Deuteronomy 23:15). This verse indicates that one may not recite any words of sanctity, including the blessing upon separating teruma, in front of one who is naked.
אמר ליה לאו כהן הוא מר מאי טעמא קאי מר בבית הקברות א"ל לא מתני מר טהרות דתניא ר"ש בן יוחי אומר קבריהן של עובדי כוכבים אין מטמאין שנאמר (יחזקאל לד, לא) ואתן צאני צאן מרעיתי אדם אתם אתם קרויין אדם ואין עובדי כוכבים קרויין אדם
The amora proceeded to ask Elijah a different question and said to him: Is not the Master a priest? What is the reason that the Master is standing in a cemetery? Elijah said to him: Has the Master not studied the mishnaic order of Teharot? As it is taught in a baraita: Rabbi Shimon ben Yoḥai says that the graves of gentiles do not render one impure, as it is stated: “And you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, are man” (Ezekiel 34:31), which teaches that you, i.e., the Jewish people, are called “man,” but gentiles are not called “man.” Since the Torah states with regard to ritual impurity imparted in a tent: “If a man dies in a tent” (Numbers 19:14), evidently impurity imparted by a tent does not apply to gentiles.
אמר ליה בארבעה לא מצינא בשיתא מצינא א"ל ואמאי אמר ליה דחיקא לי מילתא דבריה ועייליה לגן עדן אמר ליה פשוט גלימך ספי שקול מהני טרפי ספא שקל
Rabba bar Avuh said to him: How could I be familiar with that baraita? If I cannot be proficient in the more commonly studied four orders of the Mishna, can I be knowledgeable in all six? Elijah said to him: Why are you not learned in them all? Rabba bar Avuh said to him: The matter of a livelihood is pressing for me, and I am therefore unable to study properly. Elijah led him and brought him into the Garden of Eden and said to him: Remove your cloak, gather up and take some of these leaves lying around. Rabba Bar Avuh gathered them up and took them.'

The part about the Gentile not being considered human is not discussed or contradicted.


Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Understanding of what?
What the Talmud is about?


Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I went to look at the site you mentioned for that chapter and verse[/url]. Why did you decide to quote just two sentences out of a whole discussion?.
Good point. I looked for the quotes I found on the forum (two thirds of which I didn't find) and copied the relevant parts, i.e. the parts corresponding to the paraphrases I found. It may be that it would be worth putting them all in context but I doubt that the final meaning would be much different based on those I've looked into so far. Still, if I get round to checking them all out will let you know if any are in fact bogus.

" These seem to have roughly the same signification as ascribed to them on the original list, but I’ll leave it up to you to consider for yourselves what they signify in reality, surely there will be dispute about this and it is entirely possible that I’ve missed or misunderstood some subtleties."


Originally Posted by ddt View Post
After a sample of one: pretty much yeah
Well, it says what it says.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:39 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
What the Talmud is about?
Then you are doing a lousy job.

In a few words or less, tell us what you want us to learn about the Talmud and why.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:55 AM   #11
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Well you know there seems to me to be a lot of anti-Goyism in it, that's one thing. Maybe that anti-Goyism helps to explain what's happening in Israel etc. Does that really look like a religion of love for humanity?

Sure, not every Jew is a Zionist, still, trying to explain the Zionist thing without references to it's inspirations is shallow.

Oh yeah and this thing about Jesus being boiled in ****...
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:42 AM   #12
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Deleted. Not worth getting into it with antisemites.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:44 AM   #13
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:46 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well you know there seems to me to be a lot of anti-Goyism in it, that's one thing. Maybe that anti-Goyism helps to explain what's happening in Israel etc. Does that really look like a religion of love for humanity? .
Ah yes, anti-Goyism. Truly the great plague of our age.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well you know there seems to me to be a lot of anti-Goyism in it, that's one thing. Maybe that anti-Goyism helps to explain what's happening in Israel etc. Does that really look like a religion of love for humanity?

Sure, not every Jew is a Zionist, still, trying to explain the Zionist thing without references to it's inspirations is shallow.

Oh yeah and this thing about Jesus being boiled in ****...
So this is an antisemitic exercise, using Israel and the Talmud as a focus for hostility towards Jews? Zionism is inspired by Talmudic passages disparaging Christians? This is a traditional antisemitic theme. "Talmudic" Jews who have the presumption to insult Jesus' holy virgin mother, the rascals.

No love for humanity? What love did the Church have when Jews were persecuted by Christian authorities? If you want to find an explanation for Zionism, that is where to look.

And I write as a resolute opponent of Zionism, not in any way an apologist for it.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:13 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So this is an antisemitic exercise, using Israel and the Talmud as a focus for hostility towards Jews? Zionism is inspired by Talmudic passages disparaging Christians? This is a traditional antisemitic theme. "Talmudic" Jews who have the presumption to insult Jesus' holy virgin mother, the rascals.

No love for humanity? What love did the Church have when Jews were persecuted by Christian authorities? If you want to find an explanation for Zionism, that is where to look.

And I write as a resolute opponent of Zionism, not in any way an apologist for it.

I don't have a problem with Jews as a whole, nonetheless I feel that it's useful to share texts like this in order to develop an understanding of some of the more extreme forms of Judaism. The Talmud is particularly influential for the Ultra-Orthodox who will soon be the majority in Israel and these are seriously crazy dangerous people.

Note that I simply shared the texts, I didn't offer any kind of commentary and was careful to state that I may have misinterpreted the meaning.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:37 AM   #17
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If you can be bothered to look through this:

files.fm/u/asr9t756

It contains the quotes in their context. I didn't find much in the way of direct contradiction of the opinions expressed in the quotes which I previously posted
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I don't have a problem with Jews as a whole........
You have problems with them in smaller portions, then. Which ones in particular?

Be aware that here you are dealing with an overwhelming majority of atheists who have an antipathy to all religions, including by extension whichever one you belong to. We can be particularly picky with religious nuts who come here decrying other people's religions without applying similar levels on analysis to their own.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:02 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
So I checked out a few of the quotes and some of them seem to be on their own and others surrounded by lengthy discussions. Of all those I looked at none seemed to be contradicted by the following discussions.
Evasion of the question noted. Why can't you answer a simple question who you mean with "the author" in your OP, nor a simple question whence these quotes came from.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well you know there seems to me to be a lot of anti-Goyism in it, that's one thing. Maybe that anti-Goyism helps to explain what's happening in Israel etc. Does that really look like a religion of love for humanity?

Sure, not every Jew is a Zionist, still, trying to explain the Zionist thing without references to it's inspirations is shallow.

Oh yeah and this thing about Jesus being boiled in ****...
So, it's just another antisemitic diatribe. Got it. Your conflation of a religious tract, the Talmud, with a secular ideology, Zionism, is also noted. When you read Prof. Uriel Tal's essay "On Modern Lutheranism and the Jews", (mentioned in this post) you can see that early 20th Century Lutheran theologians often did the same.

As to those alleged Jesus references, they're all contested. The name Joshua/Jesus was really a common name among Jews, much like John in English.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You have problems with them in smaller portions, then. Which ones in particular?

Be aware that here you are dealing with an overwhelming majority of atheists who have an antipathy to all religions, including by extension whichever one you belong to. We can be particularly picky with religious nuts who come here decrying other people's religions without applying similar levels on analysis to their own.
Well, Israel is bad enough without the Ultra-Orthodox ruling it...

Personally I'm an unorthodox Tibetan Buddhist (I don't really believe in Lamas). I also believe in the whole Cosmic Christ, Jesus as the Logos kind of thing.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Evasion of the question noted. Why can't you answer a simple question who you mean with "the author" in your OP, nor a simple question whence these quotes came from.
I'm the author. The quotes from the Babylonian Talmud at sefaria.org . Do I understand your question correctly?


Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So, it's just another antisemitic diatribe. Got it. Your conflation of a religious tract, the Talmud, with a secular ideology, Zionism, is also noted. When you read Prof. Uriel Tal's essay "On Modern Lutheranism and the Jews", () you can see that early 20th Century Lutheran theologians often did the same.

As to those alleged Jesus references, they're all contested. The name Joshua/Jesus was really a common name among Jews, much like John in English.
It's just what I came up with having searched for the quotes I found online. Around two thirds of them were spurious, probably invented by skinheads. Those which I did actually find, I compiled. I've since had another look at the sections which they were in and they are seemingly respected opinions, I don't think any of them are directly refuted within the Talmud itself... Anyway, no matter.

I'm unconvinced that Zionism is an entirely secular ideology. Many of the settlers for example are doing the settling because they believe it is necessary to prepare for the coming of the Messiah.

The text refers to Jesus of Nazareth. Maybe there was another famous Jesus from Nazareth?
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well, Israel is bad enough without the Ultra-Orthodox ruling it...

Personally I'm an unorthodox Tibetan Buddhist (I don't really believe in Lamas). I also believe in the whole Cosmic Christ, Jesus as the Logos kind of thing.
Llamas are real.

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Old 9th July 2018, 09:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Then why do you show us a picture of an alpaca?
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I'm the author. The quotes from the Babylonian Talmud at sefaria.org . Do I understand your question correctly?
Still evading are you? I asked where those supposed quotes you found online came from.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
It's just what I came up with having searched for the quotes I found online. Around two thirds of them were spurious, probably invented by skinheads. Those which I did actually find, I compiled. I've since had another look at the sections which they were in and they are seemingly respected opinions, I don't think any of them are directly refuted within the Talmud itself... Anyway, no matter.
I'll try to translate that: you offered your buddies on Stormfront to check those quotes and to take the discussion to a respectable forum.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I'm unconvinced that Zionism is an entirely secular ideology. Many of the settlers for example are doing the settling because they believe it is necessary to prepare for the coming of the Messiah.
I note you don't call them Zionists.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The text refers to Jesus of Nazareth. Maybe there was another famous Jesus from Nazareth?
It says "Jesus the Nazarene", which is different. Now I don't know about the original Hebrew and whether that translation is accurate. Nor what the provenance of that sentence is. According to wiki, the Talmud only speaks about "Yeshu" in Gittin 57a. So someone filled in "the Nazarene" which is absent in the Hebrew text.
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Still evading are you? I asked where those supposed quotes you found online came from.
Sorry, now I understand your question, I wasn't trying to evade. They come from this page: quora.com/Does-the-Talmud-refer-to-non-Jews-as-non-human-animals

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'll try to translate that: you offered your buddies on Stormfront to check those quotes and to take the discussion to a respectable forum.
I don't hang out on Stormfront, I have no problem with immigration, black people, Muslims etc. Those sort of ideas are cruel and extremist, it just seems to me that there are some cruel and extremist ideas in the Talmud as well.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I note you don't call them Zionists.
Call who Zionists? Sorry I don't understand.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It says "Jesus the Nazarene", which is different. Now I don't know about the original Hebrew and whether that translation is accurate. Nor what the provenance of that sentence is. , the Talmud only speaks about "Yeshu" in Gittin 57a. So someone filled in "the Nazarene" which is absent in the Hebrew text.
Well perhaps, yet I would imagine that sefaria.org is a pretty good translation and I don't know why they would add the words 'the Nazarene'.

...You know there's a difference between having a problem with some of the Ultra-Orthodox Talmudic craziness and the Hassidic ideas that the Goyim are the limbs of Satan and don't have souls than having a problem with people simply because of their race.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Does that really look like a religion of love for humanity?
Why does a religion have to be about "love for humanity"?

As long as they are not a threat to world peace I'm not really interested.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then why do you show us a picture of an alpaca?
Curses.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Llamas are real.
Speaking of Llamas... youtube.com/watch?v=2_XUrf6oxuo
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:27 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Curses.
Foaled again!

Someone pulled the wool over your eyes!
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
...Now I don't know about the original Hebrew and whether that translation is accurate...
If Ziva dropped by, I know I'd trust her scholarly opinion.
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:18 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Sorry, now I understand your question, I wasn't trying to evade. They come from this page: quora.com/Does-the-Talmud-refer-to-non-Jews-as-non-human-animals
Was that so hard to understand?

I haven't nearly seen all those quotes in your OP there, but why then did you post this list of quotes first on Reddit's r/conspiracy, and now here - and not there in that Quora thread?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I don't hang out on Stormfront, I have no problem with immigration, black people, Muslims etc. Those sort of ideas are cruel and extremist, it just seems to me that there are some cruel and extremist ideas in the Talmud as well.
Got it. You're not against blacks or Muslims, you only have it in for the Jews.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Call who Zionists? Sorry I don't understand.
The religious settlers. Oh, and it's "whom".
It's really tedious when we first have to go through you feigning a few rounds of "I don't understand" when asked a question.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well perhaps, yet I would imagine that sefaria.org is a pretty good translation and I don't know why they would add the words 'the Nazarene'.
As interpretation? You may have noticed that the English translation is about twice as long as the Hebrew original, and that about half of the English translation is in bold. Can you explain to me why?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
...You know there's a difference between having a problem with some of the Ultra-Orthodox Talmudic craziness and the Hassidic ideas that the Goyim are the limbs of Satan and don't have souls than having a problem with people simply because of their race.
Got it. More antisemitism. And without textual support. Maybe you should have read the most up-voted response in that Quora thread:
Quote:
The Talmud doesn't represent just one opinion but contains within it the largely unedited, unfiltered dialogues of numerous rabbis on a wide variety of subjects. Consequently, a diverse set of opinions can be found on almost every subject, including opinions that are in the minority and not followed by Judaism (which goes by the majority opinion).
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:36 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Was that so hard to understand?

I haven't nearly seen all those quotes in your OP there, but why then did you post this list of quotes first on Reddit's r/conspiracy, and now here - and not there in that Quora thread?
Why? Because it seemed to me like pertinent information which is worth sharing.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Got it. You're not against blacks or Muslims, you only have it in for the Jews.
I'm pretty terrified about Israel becoming Ultra-Orthodox, it's bad enough as it is. It's not that I have a problem with the Jewish race.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The religious settlers. Oh, and it's "whom".
It's really tedious when we first have to go through you feigning a few rounds of "I don't understand" when asked a question.
To call a settler a Zionist would be a tautology.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As interpretation? You may have noticed that the English translation is about twice as long as the Hebrew original, and that about half of the English translation is in bold. Can you explain to me why?
Hmm. I don't speak Hebrew so I couldn't say.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Got it. More antisemitism. And without textual support. Maybe you should have read the most up-voted response in that Quora thread:
Well, I suppose I disagree with that person's opinion, from what I've read of the text (and I devoted a bit of time to checking out the context of the quotes) there seem to be some things which are genuinely about hatred for the Goy.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:27 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
.......It's not that I have a problem with the Jewish race...........
There's no such thing. Judaism is a religion. It is not a genetic trait. Middle eastern Jews are indistinguishable, genetically, from their Arab neighbours. You really are going to have to try a little harder to be precise.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:39 AM   #34
shankara
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There's no such thing. Judaism is a religion. It is not a genetic trait. Middle eastern Jews are indistinguishable, genetically, from their Arab neighbours. You really are going to have to try a little harder to be precise.
Well in that case what is the problem with criticizing extremist forms of religion? If I was quoting the Koran I wonder if there'd be so much backlash...

At the end of the day it isn't the liberals and progressives and reform who are basing everything on the Talmud, it's crazy people, Hassidims and Ultra-Orthodox who believe that the Goyim have no soul etc., etc., etc. I've seen documentaries where settlers openly admit that they are racist and enjoy beating up Arabs.

Actually, I don't know so much about the history or genetics of the Jews. I heard something about the Ashkenazi being descended from Khazarians, whether that's true I don't know. They also have the highest average IQ of any racial group, between 110 and 115.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:33 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I heard something about the Ashkenazi being descended from Khazarians, whether that's true I don't know.
Can you please link us to the source where you found this information? You don't know if it's true; have you checked its reliability in any way?
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Can you please link us to the source where you found this information? You don't know if it's true; have you checked its reliability in any way?
No, I haven't checked it's reliability, it's just something I heard somewhere a while ago, don't even remember where. Just did a google search and cursory read of the wikipedia article and apparently it's a controversial theory.

(I haven't got enough posts to post links so you'll have to copy paste)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

And there's this book which I heard about but didn't read

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Tribe
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Im sure there’s a point yearning to be made in there somewhere. Perhaps if I leave some cake near the last para, it can be coaxed out...
But if it sees it's shadow we'll have two more months of BS.
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The text refers to Jesus of Nazareth. Maybe there was another famous Jesus from Nazareth?
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It says "Jesus the Nazarene", which is different. Now I don't know about the original Hebrew and whether that translation is accurate. Nor what the provenance of that sentence is. According to wiki, the Talmud only speaks about "Yeshu" in Gittin 57a. So someone filled in "the Nazarene" which is absent in the Hebrew text.
It only says "Yeshu" in the original language, with no reference to which/whoever this Yeshu (a very common name) is.

The English addition of "the Nazarene" was added by some random person.* (see below)

There were different editions of the Talmud published with various amounts of censorship and censors' errors. Some editions of Gittin 57a say "sinners (plural) of Israel" and do not even say "Yeshu" at all.

That is noted in parenthesis in the original language at the sefaria.org link of Gittin 57a. It is not noted in the English translation right next to it.

Whichever edition is found online, whether it is "sinners of Israel", or "Yeshu" neither uses the word "Nazarene" or "Nazareth".

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well perhaps, yet I would imagine that sefaria.org is a pretty good translation and I don't know why they would add the words 'the Nazarene'.
Maybe you should stop "imagining" what you think a "pretty good translation" is and maybe find out some actual info.

Sefaria.org was started by a former Google employee and a journalist. The Babylonian Talmud (William Davidson translation) was added to the site last year.

*It is open source and anyone can add/edit to it.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Hmm. I don't speak Hebrew so I couldn't say.
You do not speak Hebrew so is it also safe to say you do not read it either? Or Aramaic? (The two languages the Talmud is written in).

I have already pointed out how English translations can be inaccurate so how do you know if what you cherry-pick and quote mine is correct or not? Let alone the context.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well, I suppose I disagree with that person's opinion, from what I've read of the text......
I see. You cannot read the text for yourself in the original languages, but you disagree with the "opinion" of a person who can.

How do you disagree with something you cannot even read?

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...&no=&seite=622

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
....(and I devoted a bit of time to checking out the context of the quotes)......
How do you know what the context even is since you cannot read the language and rely on questionable "translations"?
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:10 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
No, I haven't checked it's reliability, it's just something I heard somewhere a while ago, don't even remember where. Just did a google search and cursory read of the wikipedia article and apparently it's a controversial theory.

(I haven't got enough posts to post links so you'll have to copy paste)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

And there's this book which I heard about but didn't read

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Tribe
It's not controversial. It's anti-semitic propaganda, and utterly untrue. Prejudice like yours withers in the face of facts. Try it sone time- reading the Wiki article would be a good start.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:55 AM   #40
shankara
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
It only says "Yeshu" in the original language, with no reference to which/whoever this Yeshu (a very common name) is.

The English addition of "the Nazarene" was added by some random person.* (see below)

There were different editions of the Talmud published with various amounts of censorship and censors' errors. Some editions of Gittin 57a say "sinners (plural) of Israel" and do not even say "Yeshu" at all.

That is noted in parenthesis in the original language at the sefaria.org link of Gittin 57a. It is not noted in the English translation right next to it.

Whichever edition is found online, whether it is "sinners of Israel", or "Yeshu" neither uses the word "Nazarene" or "Nazareth".
Well I'm still pretty convinced that they're talking about the Christ. By the time the Babylonian Talmud was compiled he was pretty well known and it seems kind of likely that the Jesus they were referring to was the one who claimed to be the Messiah and got crucified.

Even if you are correct and this isn't referring to Jesus there's definitely some serious Jewish chauvinism in Gittin 57a. "Who are the most important people in the next world? The Jewish people"


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Maybe you should stop "imagining" what you think a "pretty good translation" is and maybe find out some actual info.

Sefaria.org was started by a former Google employee and a journalist. The Babylonian Talmud (William Davidson translation) was added to the site last year.

*It is open source and anyone can add/edit to it.
Ok so let's say it's not a good translation. In which case, how many of the things I quoted would be incorrect? All of them? Then it would have to be a very bad translation indeed.

For example apparently the most authoritative statements begin with "The sages say". One of my quotes for example was that the sages say it's forbidden to heal a Goy. Justify that.

Furthermore I don't think the text itself is editable. Where did you get that idea?

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
You do not speak Hebrew so is it also safe to say you do not read it either? Or Aramaic? (The two languages the Talmud is written in).

I have already pointed out how English translations can be inaccurate so how do you know if what you cherry-pick and quote mine is correct or not? Let alone the context.
Well for example a lot of people quote the King James Bible. It isn't by any means a perfect translation but most would agree that it captures well enough the essence of what the Bible says. Are you saying that people can't understand the New Testament because they don't read it in Greek?

I took the time to check out the discussions surrounding what I quoted (admittedly I perhaps posted hastily without checking this out first) and it seemed to me like the majority, if not all, of the quotes were not elsewhere directly refuted.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I see. You cannot read the text for yourself in the original languages, but you disagree with the "opinion" of a person who can.

How do you disagree with something you cannot even read?
See above.

There are Protestant, Catholic etc,. scholars who read the Bible in Greek and yet don't understand it's essential message because they are trapped in a dogmatic paradigm of interpretation.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
How do you know what the context even is since you cannot read the language and rely on questionable "translations"?
Again see above.

Really how "questionable" is the translation? It was evidently made with good intention by people with no bias against the Jews.
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