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Old 10th July 2018, 07:34 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What number to prove what? That some random individuals are racist jerks? We know. The 'while black' vids don't do much to add to the discussion of very real prejudice.
I'd say it's doing considerably more than hand-waving them away as non-representative. Wouldn't you?
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:39 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I recall years ago there was a couple well known clubs around here that got in trouble for that. They banned things that are more likely to be worn by black people (i.e. Timberland boots), which is legally OK, but then it became clear they were only applying those dress code rules to black people. As part of an investigation, white guys would go in wearing the "prohibited" clothes and get in no problem. Black guys dressed similarly in the "prohibited" clothes would get immediately stopped.
Yeah, using posted rules is a part of it as well. Sometimes it's justified by excuses about making clientele nervous (which is at worst just insulting the customers, if it's false), or not wanting to be "the black club".

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To oversimplify it somewhat, because symbolic but dramatic examples being needed to get people to accept raw data isn't something we should be encouraging.
Personally, I'm past waiting for people to accept "raw data", which has long shown roughly 1/3 of white adults in the US express racist views. And people don't seem interested in educating their "racist uncle/cousin/whatever". Hell, a majority of white voters just went with an outright white supremacist for president.

So, we're on to the public shaming portion now. I assume that pretty much everyone ID'd gets flooded with harassing and threatening phone calls, as bigots have been doing to women and minorities for years online, but is still wrong.

But meh, people could always learn to keep their bigotry to themselves, instead of screaming slurs at them, or calling police to attack them.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
So, we're on to the public shaming portion now. I assume that pretty much everyone ID'd gets flooded with harassing and threatening phone calls, as bigots have been doing to women and minorities for years online, but is still wrong.
Yeah let's be honest given human nature it's only a matter of time before this mentality goes horribly, horribly wrong.

"The Mob" doesn't magically become rational and coherent just because for a moment they are briefly on the side of good.

This is the kind of thinking that causes a guy who sold his car to a guy who later used it to run over peaceful protesters require police protection because a bunch of self appointed "Out the racist" folks looked up the license plate online, not knowing that it hadn't been updated with the new owner yet, and took it upon themselves to "deal with the problem."
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Do you think that addresses the argument?

If something isn't statistically significant it's not statistically significant. How many would be? A lot more than are being broadcast on the news.

Would you make that argument about any non-political topic? "All these kids are getting autism these days, it's on the rise, just look at the news stories about it!". We're all scientifically literate about those topics, can't we also apply our understanding of statistics to politics as well?

ETA Just in case I gave the wrong impression: I think at least some of "while black" incidents have been examples of racism, and the problem of racism of course has evidence for it other than these videos, and is indeed a problem. My point is only in relation to generalising these specific examples to mean something about a trend.
And I think that looking at it as possibly a "trend" is missing the larger point,.. this isn't something new. It's a lifestyle thing. This kind of crap goes on all the time and has been since America was desegregated. We're now catching it on videos since everyone's got a camera. Just as we're now catching a whole lot of LEOs misbehaving in the worst imaginable ways, when several years ago, the standing argument was that everyone was exaggerating and pointing out isolated instances.

I think there's a point to these informal discussions.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:46 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'd say it's doing considerably more than hand-waving them away as non-representative. Wouldn't you?
Honestly, no. I think it does more harm. Upthread, Mumbles posted a story about a black guy being denied admission to a club based on selective enforcement of dress code. I have been in a similar situation, having nothing to do with race. As I see it, it trivializes the very, very real problems with racism to portray them in such a petty light. I'm pretty sure some would come away thinking 'you call that an example of Living While Black? We all go through that. The US must really be post-racial'.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:54 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Honestly, no. I think it does more harm. Upthread, Mumbles posted a story about a black guy being denied admission to a club based on selective enforcement of dress code. I have been in a similar situation, having nothing to do with race. As I see it, it trivializes the very, very real problems with racism to portray them in such a petty light. I'm pretty sure some would come away thinking 'you call that an example of Living While Black? We all go through that. The US must really be post-racial'.
Did you read the links Mumbles provided?

"Hey, I can give you examples of discrimination not based on race" merely proves that there are multiple types of discrimination out there. It is not a refutation of discrimination on the basis of race.

I assume you see the illogic in that position.
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Did you read the links Mumbles provided?

"Hey, I can give you examples of discrimination not based on race" merely proves that there are multiple types of discrimination out there. It is not a refutation of discrimination on the basis of race.

I assume you see the illogic in that position.
Yeah, I get that. The links, which I read, reminded me of the HOB anecdote I recounted. Virtually identical, except I'm white. The kind of discrimination being recounted is the everyday 'dealing with jerks' variety, and yes, I think that trivializes the real problems. No one denies racism exists today. No one reasonable, anyway. It's analogous to talking about the overpoulation problem by posting a thread per week about a family having their third child.

eta: it's not an issue of giving a counter example that is not racially motivated. It's that the examples themselves are very poor for illustrating the problem, and make it look silly.
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:34 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
eta: it's not an issue of giving a counter example that is not racially motivated. It's that the examples themselves are very poor for illustrating the problem, and make it look silly.
Except they're not a poor example as, at least to me, they illustrate the very low level, constant, racism that Mumbles is always talking about.

The sort of stuff that is just plain ******.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:57 AM   #49
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These threads follow the same pattern. A video showing a black person being unfairly treated by a white person is presented in an OP. The “racism is no longer a real problem in the USA” members respond that the black person probably did something to deserve it, so it wasn’t unfair treatment at all. Evidence then becomes available that proves the black person had done nothing to justify their treatment. The “no-real-racism USA” cadre respond that even if the black person was indeed treated unfairly it was probably not due to their race, and that they, the non-minority posters have been treated unfairly in their own past. Further evidence then shows that indeed the black person was unfairly treated specifically due to their race. The no-real-racism USA cadre then responds that even (a) if the black person in this incident was treated unfairly and (b) it was due to their race, the particular incident in the OP is an exception, and is by no means indicative of racism in the USA as a whole.

Okay, so how does one determine if these increasing common videos do document wide-spread racism in America or not? How does one determine what a population as a whole experiences or believes? Let’s poll people!

Let’s ask blacks in the USA what they think: 89% think that racial discrimination is a serious problem in America. Well, that is just their opinion. Let’s ask what they themselves have experienced: 40% of USA blacks report that they themselves were treated unfairly in a store or restaurant based on their race, 48% that they experienced discrimination in the workplace because of their race.

But of course blacks might be… um.. prejudiced and been convinced by the liberal media that these incidents are due to racism when they weren’t. Oh, we could look at what Americans think as a whole: 64% of all Americans see racism as a major problem in the USA, with 30% more believing it exists but is not a major problem. 57% believe that whites benefit from societal advantages that blacks do not. And a plurality of all Americans (45%) believe racism is getting worse.

These numbers come from one poll but other polls yield similar results:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...roblem-n877536

Almost half of American voters believe that the most powerful person in our society, Donald Trump himself, is a racist.

Okay, rather than asking people if they believe there is racism in the USA, we could ask them if they themselves have racist views. This is tougher because most people know public expressions of racism are looked down on. The good news is the 70% of all Americans strongly agree when asked that “all races are equal” and 80% strongly agree that all races should be treated equally. That does leave a disconcerting number who believe otherwise and in fact 5% admit they strongly support white nationalism or neo Nazism. The latter represent 15 million Americans! Imagine 1 in 20 people who you might meet in your life hate you because of your race enough to admit it publicly! Enough to be real problem as I see it.

And this ignores the much, much larger number of people with more subtle or subconscious racial views. The same poll suggests that these more subtle views are quite prevalent: 31% believe that “American must protect and preserve its White European heritage” and 39% believe that “white people are currently under attack in this country.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b02da0e141b3c8
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:10 AM   #50
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The reason these videos have an effect and are important is because people as a population often need to experience these actions (through objective sources like video) before being compelled to act. People might know in a general sense that racism is real and occurs, but aren't particularly motivated to act even though they may rationally know it's a problem. The world is full of problems that I do nothing about, why should this one be so important? The same way that many people can't be bothered to donate a couple bucks to charity, but if a starving African child was on the doorstep they would empty their pantries to try and feed them. It is easy to ignore the remote, and since many parts of the country have high degrees of de-facto segregation, racism towards black is a remote problem. While there are certainly racists in this country, the larger problem is the vast mass of sympathetic, but complacent people.


Why is it that the Rodney King beating video was so effective? Black people in LA had been saying forever that the police were treating their communities terribly. Seeing concrete evidence forces the question and makes it harder to kick the can down the road. Individual incidents often become useful stand-ins for larger problems, even if the specific incident is an imperfect example. Experiencing someone else's problems vicariously is far more motivating and forces the complacent to look the problem head on.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:26 AM   #51
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The problem with these threads are that the examples are terrible. From my white experience:

Unfairly denied entry to a club for improper footwear
#MeToo

Cops called on me when working on empty property
#MeToo

Police called on me for touching property line
#MeToo

Told restrooms are for customers only
#MeToo

Accused of shoplifting when I had done nothing at all
#MeToo

The Rodney King Video showed an extreme that many people may have found hard to accept, so it had an actual enlightening effect. But regular people being jerks, like we all deal with? Not much of a story
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The problem with these threads are that the examples are terrible. From my white experience:

Unfairly denied entry to a club for improper footwear
#MeToo

Cops called on me when working on empty property
#MeToo

Police called on me for touching property line
#MeToo

Told restrooms are for customers only
#MeToo

Accused of shoplifting when I had done nothing at all
#MeToo

The Rodney King Video showed an extreme that many people may have found hard to accept, so it had an actual enlightening effect. But regular people being jerks, like we all deal with? Not much of a story
Yeah, they happen to white #MeToo, gosh, two, sometimes even 3 times, ever. To people of color, they happen constantly, too many times to count.

It's exactly the same thing!

I've made appointments to interview for jobs, and twice showed up and was told the position was filled. My spouse made appointments to interview for jobs, and would have this happen twice a week. It's exactly the same, so no racism involved. Of course, I've called back and had it confirmed the job was actually filled, yet oddly when my wife would call back they would schedule a new appointment.

#MeToo... right.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #53
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You missed the point: these threads are only showing the one-off unfair treatment that we all experience. That's exactly why I say they are bad examples.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You missed the point: these threads are only showing the one-off unfair treatment that we all experience. That's exactly why I say they are bad examples.
They are one-off to YOU. They are constant to people of color.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You missed the point: these threads are only showing the one-off unfair treatment that we all experience. That's exactly why I say they are bad examples.
Sure, the world is a big, populated place and the internet allows for a constant feed of confirmation-bias reinforcing materials.

What can we do? Most of these types of encounters are largely unmeasurable. We can say that there is a long, long history of measurable discrimination happening to black people extending from the far past to the present. We may just have to take it as an article of faith that the black community is not lying when they say these types of things occur in a systematic, targeted way. Life is full of irredeemable uncertainty, but we shouldn't use that uncertainty as an excuse to make no conclusions.

Which is more likely? That the black community is making mountains out of molehills and they aren't treated poorly by large subsets of the population. Or maybe, just maybe, the corrupt stink of racism, which has plagued this country since before it's founding, still lingers within our society, albeit in a much reduced, more subtle way.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Honestly, no. I think it does more harm. Upthread, Mumbles posted a story about a black guy being denied admission to a club based on selective enforcement of dress code. I have been in a similar situation, having nothing to do with race. As I see it, it trivializes the very, very real problems with racism to portray them in such a petty light. I'm pretty sure some would come away thinking 'you call that an example of Living While Black? We all go through that. The US must really be post-racial'.
Yes blacks should just expect to have to do that bit more than whites in every portion of their lives and learn to be quiet about it because something kind of like it happened to you once.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:33 AM   #57
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But that is my point, that using bad examples makes it look like mountains out of molehills. The kid mowing grass: was that the first time for him? At least annually for me. By showing a common nuicance and hashtagging 'living while black' is not enlightening.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You missed the point: these threads are only showing the one-off unfair treatment that we all experience. That's exactly why I say they are bad examples.
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
They are one-off to YOU. They are constant to people of color.
I think you're still missing the point, that may be true but these videos don't really demonstrate even if they are a part of it. Basically, who hasn't seen someone being a pain in the ass by selectively enforcing rules. As a white person, you think, what an *******. You see someone do it to a black person and you can easily think, what an ******* but that happened to me last week so how do we know this is racism?

So, the point really is not that there isn't racism nor that this isn't racism, its just that they are easy to see as not racism. Being a skeptic based forum we all ought to know that folks don't really think rationally. We make up are mind and then look for evidence to support our choices. If you don't already accept that everyday racism is a problem, with rare exception videos of some bitch being an ******* won't convince you and you will likely just see them as proof that its all over blown.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But that is my point, that using bad examples makes it look like mountains out of molehills. The kid mowing grass: was that the first time for him? At least annually for me. By showing a common nuicance and hashtagging 'living while black' is not enlightening.
And of course you will never accept any racial profiling data as that goes against your narrative as well.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:41 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But that is my point, that using bad examples makes it look like mountains out of molehills. The kid mowing grass: was that the first time for him? At least annually for me. By showing a common nuicance and hashtagging 'living while black' is not enlightening.
Bless your heart, that must be truly awful for you.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This always astounds. I can image a person being racist enough to leave the pool but who has the motivation to call the police?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course you can't trust lying blacks that these are representative of what happens to them on a very regular basis. They can not be trusted.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And I think that looking at it as possibly a "trend" is missing the larger point,.. this isn't something new. It's a lifestyle thing. This kind of crap goes on all the time and has been since America was desegregated. We're now catching it on videos since everyone's got a camera.

I think this is the most important part: For many years, we heard stories like this, about petty little things being escalated into "Call the police!" emergencies, and it was usually dismissed with "Really? Come on, no one would call the cops on a guy just for wearing socks! That has to be ********! No one could possibly be that petty!"

But now, were seeing that, yeah, some people really are that petty. That some people take that pettiness, and dial it up to 11, going out of their way to find petty reasons to call the police, and taking significant time out of their lives to do it, just to make sure that those people "get what's coming to them!"

The undeniable evidence that these people do exist lends credence to all the earlier incidents that were dismissed because, to people who aren't obsessed with hounding black people for perceived slights, they sounded ridiculous.

Sure, it's ridiculous, but it's also true.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course you will never accept any racial profiling data as that goes against your narrative as well.
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Bless your heart, that must be truly awful for you.
Perhaps in other threads, thermal as said things that make you think that is the case but in this thread he/she seems quite clear that most of these videos are easily dismissed and as such aren't very effective or useful if your goal is reducing racism.

Horatius makes a valid point though.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course you will never accept any racial profiling data as that goes against your narrative as well.
Then you haven't read my postings. I say that systemic racism, and in particular by the police, is a deadly serious problem. Don't lie about me to suit your tribal poturing
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Bless your heart, that must be truly awful for you.
Again, you miss the point. Its not awful. Its nothing at all. Systemic racism is
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:20 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah let's be honest given human nature it's only a matter of time before this mentality goes horribly, horribly wrong.
Of course - it's gone awful before, after all. Matter of fact, I'd argue that, with the GOP pushing hard to move back to voter suppression, backing police violence, and so forth, it's already going "horribly wrong" on one end - and any large group (including any racial group in the US) will contain people who will eventually react violently as well.

IT's no different than when the Ferguson police decided to attack black people en masse, and I predicted that someone would eventually just shoot at them - which did happen. It's not exactly a wild prediction that if you continue to attack people based on some trivial characteristic, some of them will eventually go violent. It may be a guilty party, it may be someone completely innocent. And it's a prime reason why white nationalists are so into conspiracy theories about how "the jews" are trying to destroy them via "white genocide" - they really have nothing to say that they're being oppressed, so they just dream one up.

(Note that this is different than, say, the Supreme Court gutting voting rights, or Jeff Sessions gleefully announcing what amounts to state-run kidnapping, but there are definite conspiracy theories about immigration, the AIDS epidemic, and so forth among minority communities as well...)
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Yeah, they happen to white #MeToo, gosh, two, sometimes even 3 times, ever. To people of color, they happen constantly, too many times to count.

It's exactly the same thing!

I've made appointments to interview for jobs, and twice showed up and was told the position was filled. My spouse made appointments to interview for jobs, and would have this happen twice a week. It's exactly the same, so no racism involved. Of course, I've called back and had it confirmed the job was actually filled, yet oddly when my wife would call back they would schedule a new appointment.

#MeToo... right.
I half agree with Thermal's point... if he's saying anecdotes aren't proof, who could disagree with that? If he's saying anecdotes have not place on a Skeptics' forum, though, I'd have to disagree.

To me, on a Skeptics' forum, these are personalized examples of trends we observe through objective studies and reasonable interpretation of how America's slave, and then, segregation history has inertia on the contemporary culture. Skeptics have a special skill of assuming a prioi that people are not very rational, and it's easy to see how culture and our biological predispositions combine into depressing tribalism in an otherwise advanced nation.

We've watched many of our opponents mount multigenerational strategies to achieve their goals. Creationism being a good example. What are we at now, round 5? Plan E?

Segregation is the same. No more explicit segregation laws. Now, it's down to selective enforcement. The classic example is 'loitering'. "You don't belong here, move along. No, no, not you, you're white, you belong here, you can stay."
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:53 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then you haven't read my postings. I say that systemic racism, and in particular by the police, is a deadly serious problem. Don't lie about me to suit your tribal poturing
And yet none of the incidents that supposedly make up that kind of thing matter or mean anything. Here is the thing 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0=0. No matter how many 0's you put in there it is always 0.

How can you claim there is a deadly serious problem when it is made up of nothing?
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, you miss the point. Its not awful. Its nothing at all. Systemic racism is
But when you break this supposed systemic racism down to individual incidents they are all nothing. How can all these nothing mean anything?
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But when you break this supposed systemic racism down to individual incidents they are all nothing. How can all these nothing mean anything?
Xeno's racism?
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Xeno's racism?
Not at all, that is breaking up a continuous thing into smaller and smaller bits and pretending that is meaningful. Newton and integrals calculated that and solved it.

This is taking human interactions and try to claim that there is some nebulous concept of systemic racism that exists but can not be viewed as having an effect on any particular interaction.

So how can systemic racism exist when it has no effect on any interaction on the supposed victims day to day lives that it supposedly hurts?
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how can systemic racism exist when it has no effect on any interaction on the supposed victims day to day lives that it supposedly hurts?

That's the key, right there. It's easy enough for the closet racists, denialists, and ostriches to say "well, yes, I guess there is some sort of systemic racism affecting this country". But when specific examples of actual racist incidents are provided, there is always that attempt at plausible deniability, "Well, there may be a racism problem in this country, but this particular incident isn't part of that," and then going into the denial escalation that Giordano delineated so effectively earlier. Racism remains nothing more than a hypothetical, which no single data point can possibly be clear evidence of.

And no matter how many data points can be garnered, they cannot be evidence of racism, because each individual incident can be explained away as something other than an expression of systemic, cultural racism. And when taken in the aggregate, well, that's when the denialism breaks down, so it's in the denialists' best interest to avoid the aggregate whenever possible, and focus exclusively on the atomized data points.

If the aggregate shows clear evidence of a trend, then "there isn't enough data", and of course, no data is ever enough for such people. Or if there is enough data, it's "not statistically significant" and consists entirely of "outliers", which, again, must be examined individually so they can be explained away.

They dismissal they're most fond of when faced with trends is "the plural of anecdote is not data"; but, in fact, that's wrong. Each datapoint is an anecdote to someone, somewhere; but taken together in the aggregate, they are, in fact data. All one has to do is look at the commonalities, and how they fit into the larger picture of minority experiences in this country.

As so many others have pointed out, these incidents are not even remotely new or uncommon. They've been reported by many, many people for many, many decades. The only difference now is that with the advent of the increasingly wide-spread ability to capture these incidents on undeniable video that the evidence, the data, is become harder and harder to deny and refute, and a face is being put on what before were dry statistics. The problem, of course, is that it does also enable the denialists to engage in the aforementioned atomization of data points.

It's increasingly obvious to anyone who isn't a denialist that videos like these are not "molehills", but are rather the tips of a very large iceberg.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I half agree with Thermal's point... if he's saying anecdotes aren't proof, who could disagree with that? If he's saying anecdotes have not place on a Skeptics' forum, though, I'd have to disagree.

To me, on a Skeptics' forum, these are personalized examples of trends we observe through objective studies and reasonable interpretation of how America's slave, and then, segregation history has inertia on the contemporary culture. Skeptics have a special skill of assuming a prioi that people are not very rational, and it's easy to see how culture and our biological predispositions combine into depressing tribalism in an otherwise advanced nation.

We've watched many of our opponents mount multigenerational strategies to achieve their goals. Creationism being a good example. What are we at now, round 5? Plan E?

Segregation is the same. No more explicit segregation laws. Now, it's down to selective enforcement. The classic example is 'loitering'. "You don't belong here, move along. No, no, not you, you're white, you belong here, you can stay."
Yes and no. My point is that these are anecdotes which do not show support for the claim, which most would agree is perfectly true, that persons of color suffer discrimination on the daily. I recall one of those hidden camera shows where a black woman inquired about an apartment vacancy, and was told by the manager that it was filled. A moment later, a white guy inquired and was shown the apartment. This, to me, was clear racism and utterly outrageous. The problem I have with the While Black threads isn't the use of anecdotes, but that the anecdotes are terrible (mostly). They don't represent racial discrimination, they represent dealing with busybodies and jerks.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:23 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet none of the incidents that supposedly make up that kind of thing matter or mean anything. Here is the thing 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0=0. No matter how many 0's you put in there it is always 0.

How can you claim there is a deadly serious problem when it is made up of nothing?
A distinction can be made between a mundane incident and a revolting one, and the spectrum in between. Only you are setting all the values at zero, no one else.

For instance, in the That Starbucks Thing thread, it was roundly agreed that the manager appeared racist. On the Mowing the Lawn thread, nothing at all was shown to be motivated by race, and a territorial busybody who calls the cops for everything is a common type on many streets. This second type is what I have a problem with.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:28 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes and no. My point is that these are anecdotes which do not show support for the claim, which most would agree is perfectly true, that persons of color suffer discrimination on the daily. I recall one of those hidden camera shows where a black woman inquired about an apartment vacancy, and was told by the manager that it was filled. A moment later, a white guy inquired and was shown the apartment. This, to me, was clear racism and utterly outrageous. The problem I have with the While Black threads isn't the use of anecdotes, but that the anecdotes are terrible (mostly). They don't represent racial discrimination, they represent dealing with busybodies and jerks.

So, then, this is the wrong thread for you to make this point, because there was clear evidence of racism. Go back and read the quote in the first post:

Quote:
She stated, “you can’t wear socks in the pool. The rules are only pool attire *as she points at the pool rules*” She goes on to say, “no socks, tshirts, hats, or things of that nature are allowed in the pool.” HER EXACT WORDS! I then notice that there are two guys in her group of friends and BOTH have on hats. Also, the other 25+ people around who don’t have on “proper swimming attire.”

This person was singled out for a minor (possible) violation of The Rules, and had the police called and everything, while a large group of other people, equally "guilty" of minor infractions of the same rule, were ignored.

What was the distinguishing factor?
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:58 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, then, this is the wrong thread for you to make this point, because there was clear evidence of racism. Go back and read the quote in the first post:




This person was singled out for a minor (possible) violation of The Rules, and had the police called and everything, while a large group of other people, equally "guilty" of minor infractions of the same rule, were ignored.

What was the distinguishing factor?
I have more than one point involved. In this one, the guy with the socks appears to be either entering, or because he was with his toddler, preparing to enter the pool with socks. Socks go under water, unlike a hat. But you're right, this one is more clearly leaning toward the racist side. More than a little. This is 'dealing with a lone hillbilly jerk'. Had management supported her, very different story.

So, what is the anecdotal video demonstrating or supporting? That hillbilly racist jerks are around? Agreed. No, a challenge: find me one semi-rational person on God's Green Footstool who seriously opines that you will never run across the occasional hillbilly behaving in a racist manner. Just one will do. Can't find one? Right. These 'While Black' vids are proving nothing we don't know, and are supporting nothing that is not obvious. So what the hell is the point?

eta: I was responding to blutoski's comment about anecdotes having a place on the forum, which is a broader point. Didn't mean that this vid was the best example
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:28 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A distinction can be made between a mundane incident and a revolting one, and the spectrum in between. Only you are setting all the values at zero, no one else.
You are, because it is the prevalence of these things you view as ordinary events that make up a large part of the systemic racism.

Look at getting job interviews, white felons are called back at a high rate than blacks with a clean criminal record. That is clearly systemic racism, but it is also victimless as who can say that any particular person ever lost an interview or job because they were black? So there are of course no people who can say that they were ever a victim of this systemic racism, as they have nothing to point to as an actual harmful event.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A distinction can be made between a mundane incident and a revolting one, and the spectrum in between.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are, because it is the prevalence of these things you view as ordinary events that make up a large part of the systemic racism.

The point is that it's the sheer numbers of these so-called "mundane" events disproportionately targeting black and hispanic people that demonstrate, when viewed in the aggregate, the extent to which systemic racism is a problem in this country. Atomizing and dismissing individual incidents as "non-representative" or "questionable" is to entirely miss the point, and to engage in denialism/ostrich-ism.

And since far too many of these "ordinary event" calls have actually gotten black and hispanic people seriously injured or killed by police, referring to them as "mundane" is to further deny or ignore the extent and depth of the problem.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The point is that it's the sheer numbers of these so-called "mundane" events disproportionately targeting black and hispanic people that demonstrate, when viewed in the aggregate, the extent to which systemic racism is a problem in this country. Atomizing and dismissing individual incidents as "non-representative" or "questionable" is to entirely miss the point, and to engage in denialism/ostrich-ism.

And since far too many of these "ordinary event" calls have actually gotten black and hispanic people seriously injured or killed by police, referring to them as "mundane" is to further deny or ignore the extent and depth of the problem.
This entirely misses the mark. If someone is hurt or killed, dear god, that is not a mundane event. Having the cops called because you step over a property line is mundane, and happens to everyone.

Another anecdote: last year I was in an elevator with a few people who moved aside as new people boarded. A black man entered, and it looked like Moses parting the Red Sea as people dramatically moved away from him. He was dressed as well or better than anyone else on the car, no offensive smells or anything to account for the unusual treatment. This, to me, should shine light on the subtle black experience, not having some busy body harass you, like we all deal with. Posters of the Living While Black threads should maybe consider if they are virtue signalling or really helping people get what ostracizing is all about
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This entirely misses the mark. If someone is hurt or killed, dear god, that is not a mundane event. Having the cops called because you step over a property line is mundane, and happens to everyone.
Or you know walking down the street and if the cops happen to paralyze you no big deal and certainly nothing for the person calling the cops. Unless you are on the cops side then of course it was the people calling giving bad info that caused their immediate over reaction.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #80
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Well don't we all paralyze others accidentally once in a while?
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