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Old 9th July 2018, 12:29 PM   #41
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets on the subject

"The failing NY Times Fake News story today about breast feeding must be called out. The U.S. strongly supports breast feeding but we donít believe women should be denied access to formula. Many women need this option because of malnutrition and poverty.""
I'm not on that guys side. That is the exact opposite population that should be using formula.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The manufacturers of artificial baby food should buy the babies. Or the breasts of their mothers.
That's stupid.

You rent the breasts.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:09 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I saw that as an extremely positive thing - we finally have proof that Putin calls the shots; as soon as Russia sponsored it, USA stayed quiet.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:12 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets on the subject

"The failing NY Times Fake News story today about breast feeding must be called out. The U.S. strongly supports breast feeding but we donít believe women should be denied access to formula. Many women need this option because of malnutrition and poverty.""
The man is such a liar I'm surprised he hasn't swallowed his own tongue yet.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Protect all the beautiful babies !



... until they're born



... until they have a negative impact on our corporate bottom line



... until they become old enough to use as cannon fodder



... until I accidentally knock up my mistress



... until I have to open up my wallet to pay for the little unwanted b*****d
Now you're on the trolley!
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Old 9th July 2018, 02:55 PM   #46
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https://www.npr.org/2018/07/09/62719...breast-feeding

Quote:
GREENE: And just - I mean, we don't have - we only have seconds left. But is it all about protecting manufacturers of substitutes or is the story more complicated?

RUNDALL: Absolutely, and stopping - it's all about trading and trading goods that really are misleadingly marketed. So they're marketed almost as if they are infant formula for babies, which is important and is something good. These are look-alike products that are not correct for babies, and they're fueling the obesity epidemic (ph) and undermining breastfeeding. So it's terribly important that they're marketed properly, and that's what WHO and all the health community want to happen.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:19 PM   #47
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There's already a thread on this, not sure where, started by Capt Swoop.

ETA: It's in Social Issues. I'll request a merge.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No. What a stupid, or perhaps deceptive, thing to say!
Breast milk costs virtually nothing, and is the better choice by any standard.
There really cannot be a debate in 2018 about this. If a mother has milk, and her baby can drink it without trouble, it is both the better and the cheaper option. Period.
Research is complicated, and there are always two ways to think about things. You have to realize that the vast left-wing education machine often distorts these issues to their own advantage. All the Trump administration has done is introduce a little clarity into the ongoing debate. Why is there contention on the breastfeeding question? It's because there's work left to be done. We should study much more before we urge any action.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 9th July 2018 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:21 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Research is complicated, and there are always two ways to think about things. You have to realize that the vast left-wing education machine often distorts these issues to their own advantage. All the Trump administration has done is introduce a little clarity into the ongoing debate. Why is there contention on the pollution question? It's because there's work left to be done. We should study much more before we urge any action.
No, I think it's wiser to go with Trump was weird issues and sexual hang-ups about women breast feeding.
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Old 9th July 2018, 09:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't dispute any of that. Of course it is true. But the issue is how much of a difference it makes. What are the odds of a hospitalization for the two populations? Yes, it is more for one, but how much more matters.

To use an analogy, it is a fact that buying a second lottery ticket doubles your chance of winning.
Here:

Quote:
Approximately 44% of infants will have at least 1 episode of otitis media in the first year of life, and the risk among formula-fed infants is doubled
Quote:
In a meta-analysis of 7 cohort studies of healthy term infants in affluent regions, Bachrach and associates15 found that infants who were not breastfed faced a 3.6-fold increased risk (95% CI, 1.9–7.1) of hospitalization for lower respiratory tract infection in the first year of life, compared with infants who were exclusively breastfed for more than 4 months.
Quote:
Necrotizing Enterocolitis
Among preterm infants, not being breastfed is associated with a 2.4-fold risk (95% CI, 1.04–5.6) of NEC with an absolute risk difference of 5%.1 Because the case-fatality rate for NEC is 15%,18 this difference in absolute risk is clinically significant.
Sudden infant death syndrome:
Quote:
Case-control studies suggest that formula feeding is associated with a 1.6-(95% CI, 1.2–2.3)1 to 2.1-fold (95% CI, 1.7–2.7)35 increased odds of SIDS compared with breastfeeding.
Free full text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:01 PM   #51
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Here:







Sudden infant death syndrome:


Free full text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
Did you not read what I wrote? I gave an analogy on why a multi fold increase on low risk can be reasonable. The most interesting one on there to me is ear infection. It is also reasonable to pay the cost of one ear infection for other benefits.
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Did you not read what I wrote? I gave an analogy on why a multi fold increase on low risk can be reasonable. The most interesting one on there to me is ear infection. It is also reasonable to pay the cost of one ear infection for other benefits.
"Risk perception" is a really complicated topic, and I'd never shame a mother for choosing to formula feed for any reason, honestly. I understand that different people make different choices for a whole variety of reasons.

The topic of this thread is Trump sending some awful, corporate hack as a delegate to the WHO, though.

eta: I thought the respiratory infection stuff was most compelling. From the citation:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/481276

Quote:
RESPIRATORY DISEASE is the leading cause of hospitalization among young children.1 Annually, 6% of infants younger than 1 year are hospitalized for lower respiratory tract diseases (LRTDs), according to trend data (1980-1996) in the United States
Quote:
Among generally healthy infants in developed nations, more than a tripling in severe respiratory tract illnesses resulting in hospitalizations was noted for infants who were not breastfed compared with those who were exclusively breastfed for 4 months.
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:00 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Risk perception" is a really complicated topic, and I'd never shame a mother for choosing to formula feed for any reason, honestly. I understand that different people make different choices for a whole variety of reasons.

The topic of this thread is Trump sending some awful, corporate hack as a delegate to the WHO, though.

eta: I thought the respiratory infection stuff was most compelling. From the citation:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/481276
Now that is a good one. That says if 26 adults only breastfed, one admit would be prevented. That, unlike the sids one, would make people pause when put into context.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:03 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I was responding to Norman Alexander's point that dissuading the promotion of breast milk formula could cost manufacturers of formula money.

Unless US standards are seriously lacking, I'm surprised that the export of US formula isn't also lucrative.
As the article quoted said it is, it is worth 70 billion USA dollars a year so where do you get the idea it isn't lucrative?
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Here:







Sudden infant death syndrome:


Free full text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
And let's not forget that isn't taking into account the dangers of formula if there is not a supply of clean water.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Risk perception" is a really complicated topic, and I'd never shame a mother for choosing to formula feed for any reason, honestly. I understand that different people make different choices for a whole variety of reasons.

The topic of this thread is Trump sending some awful, corporate hack as a delegate to the WHO, though.

eta: I thought the respiratory infection stuff was most compelling. From the citation:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/481276
That is in the USA, imagine the increase in risk where there is very little access to good affordable , hospital care.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:56 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The man is such a liar I'm surprised he hasn't swallowed his own tongue yet.

Obviously, he's admitting that if the formula manufacturers aren't allowed to lie about their product, sales will plummet, they'll go out of business, and poor women will be denied access to formula.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The man is such a liar I'm surprised he hasn't swallowed his own tongue yet.
He keeps it limber by frequently telling the truth.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:22 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He keeps it limber by frequently telling the truth.
I'd be very confident his false statements outnumber the true quite easily. How many time has he talked about his Yuge inauguration crowd alone?

I can understand his supporters not noticing, because they're obviously drinking the Flavor Aid of Fox.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:09 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He keeps it limber by frequently telling the truth.
Ahem.

Quote:
True 27 (5%)
Mostly True 68 (12%)
Half True 87 (15%)
Mostly False 125 (22%)
False 186 (32%)
Pants on Fire 85 (15%)(85)
I gave him the benefit of the doubt on the "half-true" category, but even with that, his lies outnumber his truths; 182 in the "true" category versus 396 "false". More than half of the things that come out of that man's mouth can be proven false.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Not if it leads to measures which can harm children.

Science has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that breast milk provides more nutrients and antibodies that a child needs than formula does, but because of the association of breasts with sexual activity, the act of breastfeeding became badly stigmatized and is only now making a resurgence due to activists making people aware of the possibility they may be harming their infant by not at least attempting to breastfeed, and actively campaigning to allow breastfeeding in public spaces in order to destigmatize the act. Given that, the importance of knowing how formula makers have fudged the truth in regards to the benefits of formula vs breast milk becomes rather more important to new parents than otherwise.

Now, formula is not all bad; there are many instances where a mother has to either supplement or completely replace breast milk with formula; her body may not be producing enough, perhaps her infant has trouble with latching on to her nipple vs. the nipple of the bottle, or other health issues may be preventing her from breast feeding vs. bottle feeding, but the point is, formula makers have a vested interest in fudging the truth about the benefits of breast milk vs. formula, and the potential harm to infants who are not breast fed doesn't factor into their equation at all. Now thankfully the effort was defeated, but it's still a step backward from all the progress that has been made in this country to destigmatize breast feeding, which is, if I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I'm wrong) Skeptic Ginger's point in making the post.
Back to this point, I'm not sure how this supports the claim in the article that every parent needs to know the activities of nestle. This useful information is not dependent on that history.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Back to this point, I'm not sure how this supports the claim in the article that every parent needs to know the activities of nestle. This useful information is not dependent on that history.
Perhaps they don't need to know every action, but surely you'd agree that pushing formula over the healthier option of breastfeeding does nothing more than benefit the bottom line of the formula industry. However, the countries this resolution would have been aimed at do not really include the U.S. anyway, and I trust you would agree that pushing formula on poorer countries who can't always afford it and do not have clean water to use it in is not in the best interests of children anywhere. It would be far better and safer in THOSE countries to ensure that breastfeeding is encouraged much more than formula, and if that includes educating the people there about the lengths the formula industry will go to in order to sell their product, then I'm all for showing it to them.

There's also the issue that Ecuador was the driving force behind the resolution; we threatened them, they dropped it, Russia picked it up, and we were suddenly silent. It makes you wonder exactly why the U.S. was adamantly against it when one country was pushing the resolution, but suddenly stopped objecting when another one picked it up.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Perhaps they don't need to know every action, but surely you'd agree that pushing formula over the healthier option of breastfeeding does nothing more than benefit the bottom line of the formula industry. However, the countries this resolution would have been aimed at do not really include the U.S. anyway, and I trust you would agree that pushing formula on poorer countries who can't always afford it and do not have clean water to use it in is not in the best interests of children anywhere. It would be far better and safer in THOSE countries to ensure that breastfeeding is encouraged much more than formula, and if that includes educating the people there about the lengths the formula industry will go to in order to sell their product, then I'm all for showing it to them.

There's also the issue that Ecuador was the driving force behind the resolution; we threatened them, they dropped it, Russia picked it up, and we were suddenly silent. It makes you wonder exactly why the U.S. was adamantly against it when one country was pushing the resolution, but suddenly stopped objecting when another one picked it up.
I only care about the title of the cited article.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:40 AM   #65
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I breastfed until my daughter was over 2 years old. However, I did use formula to supplement as needed. She was a BIG kiddo! (still is, just turned 10, and over 5'3"!)

I can say that I would 100% advocate breastfeeding as the best 'formula'. It's clearly superior in most cases and the health benefits are undeniable at this point. However, the language of the original resolution is concerning. It promoted limiting formula access to mothers in these 'baby friendly' hospitals and basically demonizing formula use. The goal is to get everyone on the breastfeeding train, whether the woman chooses it or not. That just pisses me off. It feels like those manipulative tactics anti-abortion people use to make women look at a sonogram because they are 'too stupid' to make their own decisions. (oh noes, they saw a formula advertisement! burn it!)

I don't need the nanny state telling me my 10lb newborn baby needs to cry it out for a few days til the milk comes in or she learns to 'latch', all while I am recovering from a c-section. I don't need to sign a consent form that make it seem like I am giving my child literal poison. **** that.

I'm so lucky my hospital was NOT like that and gave my daughter the small formula bottle she needed as I recovered and didn't throw a guilt trip to me when I asked for some samples as I was discharged.

In the end, the language of the resolution was changed to simply promoting breastfeeding as the best and healthiest option, which is great.

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Old 11th July 2018, 10:44 AM   #66
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I didn't see anything in the original version of the resolution that sounded like nobody was going to be allowed to suggest or provide formula where its use is appropriate. It was basically just saying 'yeah we should try to make sure people are paying a little attention to the guidelines of when formula promotion is inappropriate' and the guidelines themselves seem limited to 'you should not recommend formula as a substitute for breastmilk for babies under 6 months of age' 'there should be some text on formula packaging that promotes breastfeeding' and that companies that sell formula shouldn't give out free formula at health care facilities "except as supplies distributed through officially sanctioned health programmes" or generally give out cash/parties/freebies to facilities or staff. That kind of stuff. It wasn't Orwellian or anything.

The originally worded resolution:

"URGES Member States to implement and/or strengthen national monitoring and enforcement mechanisms for
effective implementation of national measures aimed at giving effect to the International Code of
Marketing of Breast-milk Substitutes and subsequent relevant World Health Assembly resolutions;
to continue taking all necessary measures in the interest of public health to end the
inappropriate promotion of foods for infants and young children, including, in particular implementation
of the Guidance on Ending the Inappropriate Promotion of Foods for Infants and Young Children"

The mentioned Code and Guidance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...lk_Substitutes
http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_fil...9_7Add1-en.pdf

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Old 11th July 2018, 10:59 AM   #67
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Alright I'm A) a guy and B) childless so I'm an outsider looking in at this so take this however you want but in either/both the developed and the less developed world if we're gonna pick either a children's health crisis or a "Big company with too much influence on a health policy" hill to die defending is breast vs formula really the one we need to Teddy Roosevelt up?

Cards on the table I'm a "little" biased right now because my sister just had her first kid and has already had runs in with the hardcore "Lactivist" community but regardless when you are an infant is pretty much only time in your life when your choice "Practically perfect food" and "Pretty damn good food."

But this has always been one of those discussions that I always get the impression other people are having on a level that I'm not. There's a lot of just under the surface baggage here.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #68
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Yeah there's always some pushy opinionated First World Ladies on issues like this, and no nobody needs to be screeched at, especially when they are tired new mothers. Nobody needs to be guilt-tripped, for example, for not having enough milk for their newborn, or for avoiding breastfeeding when it's very painful, etc.

There is a lot of baggage yes and a lot of that is worry about the historical and ongoing problem of poor and/or low-information mothers being intentionally misinformed by expensive campaigns (and/or general public misinformation) aimed at getting them to use formula under the impression that it's higher status than, or better nutrition than, or easier and comparable in nutrition to the point of unconsidered substitution for, breastfeeding.

There's room for debate on how much is too much when it comes to supplemental formula feedings for tired new moms, and after six months of age it sounds like everyone but the Lactivists stop worrying about it quite so much.

But I can't see any honest argument saying it should be fine to give people the impression that feeding formula to newborns is healthier or higher status than feeding them breastmilk.

"your baby is hungry right now and you are recovering from surgery so here, you can give him this bottle of formula" "cool can I have a bit more on the way out" "sure" may run against the letter of the recommendations (not to give out formula for free) but not the spirit.

"here, take some formula and see if you like it, we sell this by the way" is the behaviour the guidelines are trying to curb.

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Old 11th July 2018, 11:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Alright I'm A) a guy and B) childless so I'm an outsider looking in at this so take this however you want but in either/both the developed and the less developed world if we're gonna pick either a children's health crisis or a "Big company with too much influence on a health policy" hill to die defending is breast vs formula really the one we need to Teddy Roosevelt up?

Cards on the table I'm a "little" biased right now because my sister just had her first kid and has already had runs in with the hardcore "Lactivist" community but regardless when you are an infant is pretty much only time in your life when your choice "Practically perfect food" and "Pretty damn good food."

But this has always been one of those discussions that I always get the impression other people are having on a level that I'm not. There's a lot of just under the surface baggage here.
This may give you an idea why it's an issue for women:

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To summarize, the video shows a social experiment where a woman who is otherwise covered up in non-revealing clothing breastfeeds an infant in public at a mall and receives mostly censure for feeding her child via her body, while a woman wearing revealing clothing in the same shopping center receives appreciative looks, and occasionally gets hit on, but is not shamed for her actions. Later, when they are side by side, several people refer to the act of breastfeeding as "disgusting" while the woman wearing revealing clothing is not shamed for her appearance at all (not that she should be, mind you, but the point is to show the difference between a natural bodily function being shamed and vilified by random people while a pretty girl wearing revealing clothing is given little more than appreciative looks).

Breastfeeding is a hot button issue because, for women, we're sick of being seen as walking sex objects. Our breasts are there to feed a child, not arouse men (or women, as the case may be); the fact that they do arouse others is immaterial to their biological function and people should cease shaming women (which they do, trust me; I've seen women multiple times breastfeeding in public who receive disgusted looks or who have even been told they should cover up because there are people around) for a natural act. That's not to say women should not use formula; as I stated earlier, there are multiple reasons why a woman may need to use formula in place of breastfeeding, or to supplement breastfeeding, but women are overall sick of being stigmatized for the simple act of feeding their infant in public via the method our bodies are biologically structured to do. Add in the proven health benefits found by breastfeeding versus bottle feeding, and I find it hard to believe women would not at least make the effort to breastfeed their child, or at the very least pump their own breast milk rather than or in addition to using formula.

I don't condone people who shame women for bottle feeding though; as I've stated, there are multiple reasons why a woman might need to bottle-feed vs breastfeed, so I'm not on the side of women who are out to stigmatize the use of formula, but I will defend a woman's right to breastfeed her child in any way that is comfortable for said child (for instance, I've read about mothers who literally cannot use a nursing blanket to cover up their chest because their child will fight the covering, but will simultaneously refuse a bottle, so their only choice is breastfeeding in public with breast exposed to some extent).

Last edited by Sabrina; 11th July 2018 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:48 AM   #70
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah there's always some pushy opinionated First World Ladies on issues like this, and no nobody needs to be screeched at, especially when they are tired new mothers. Nobody needs to be guilt-tripped, for example, for not having enough milk for their newborn, or for avoiding breastfeeding when it's very painful, etc.

There is a lot of baggage yes and a lot of that is worry about the historical and ongoing problem of poor and/or low-information mothers being intentionally misinformed by expensive campaigns (and/or general public misinformation) aimed at getting them to use formula under the impression that it's higher status than, or better nutrition than, or easier and comparable in nutrition to the point of unconsidered substitution for, breastfeeding.

There's room for debate on how much is too much when it comes to supplemental formula feedings for tired new moms, and after six months of age it sounds like everyone but the Lactivists stop worrying about it quite so much.

But I can't see any honest argument saying it should be fine to give people the impression that feeding formula to newborns is healthier or higher status than feeding them breastmilk.

"your baby is hungry right now and you are recovering from surgery so here, you can give him this bottle of formula" "cool can I have a bit more on the way out" "sure" may run against the letter of the recommendations (not to give out formula for free) but not the spirit.

"here, take some formula and see if you like it, we sell this by the way" is the behaviour the guidelines are trying to curb.
How about, "don't like breastfeeding" as a reason?
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:54 AM   #71
Sabrina
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How about, "don't like breastfeeding" as a reason?
I think you'd find most women don't dislike breastfeeding so much as they aren't educated about it. It can be painful and messy, and I don't know of any woman who wants to leak through her shirt and bra or have to deal with bleeding nipples, but much of that can easily be mitigated (they invented nursing pads for a reason, and if a woman properly cares for her skin and ensures that her child is latching on properly, the nipple bleeding isn't as much of an issue). If a woman says she doesn't like breastfeeding, I'd question whether she's actually tried it, or has simply been "brainwashed", so to speak to think of it as gross.

Now, if she's tried it and then legitimately "doesn't like it" for whatever reason and is okay with the potential for increased risk of some illnesses, I'm not going to stop her. Her infant, her choice. I just want to ensure she's been fully educated on the pros and cons of both sides.

Last edited by Sabrina; 11th July 2018 at 11:56 AM. Reason: clarified a point
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:35 PM   #72
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My beef with this is that is just goes too far for a good goal.

Limit the formula marketing incentive to the health system. Fine.
No posters and tri-fold brocures. Great.
But do not limit, or even delay, a woman's CHOICE to use formula with guidelines that require her to jump through hoops to get it.
Breast is Best, but it isn't that much better. Also remember that what's in the breast milk, also goes to the baby- so no drinking, no drugs, and good nutrition also play a role. (I was on 6 Norco pills a day for the first 2 weeks after my surgery. Was that better than formula? I went ahead and breastfed + supplement w/bottles, but other moms may choose not to, or 'pump and dump' til they are clear of drugs)

Examples from the "Code" the resolution refers to that I'd prefer were removed:

-Mothers should not be given free product samples.
Is this 'aggressive marketing' to get free samples if you need them? I got some!! Those little bottles didn't even have a 'brand' product label on them. They were awesome.

-No free samples or supplies in the health care system.
Again, doesn't seem aggressive if the woman decides to formula feed. Nothing wrong with having free samples for mother's who choose NOT to breastfeed or even just to supplement.

-All information on artificial feeding, including labels, should explain the benefits of breastfeeding and the costs and hazards associated with artificial feeding.
Hazards? Wow. I hope the new mom that cried for a week because she could not breastfeed (and I know a few!), no matter how hard she tried, doesn't also have PPD, because you probably just made things worse with having to look at a 'Cost & Hazard' label every day.

The reason WHO and government policy always foist these things on the hospital birth portion of a pregnancy is the poor level of prenatal care for the poor or uneducated. So, they try to force everything into the hospital stay, this captive audience when they know they've got you there. That includes vaccines for STD's (which I refused and got asked 2 more times about it). I get the reasoning but I still like to have my own unhindered choices.

Is there not a better way to do this without more rules and guidelines that hurt the 'informed' new mom? Is this some price we are supposed to pay? The guilt of signing forms that say "I understand am not giving my child the best option", with a list of dire consequesences? Cracked and bleeding nipples because you cannot supplement to rest them a bit? Sending family out to buy your own formula if a hospital won't give til the doctor approves it as 'medically necessary', for the good of the whole? Pre-natal education/care is the real culprit.

This isn't true for all hospitals that do 'baby friendly' but common enough stuff that happens when a hospital sets a 'breastfeeding' goal (with conditional tax funding to spur it into action). A mom who chooses formula isn't helping the goal and will be pushed hard to 'suffer for the cause'. She becomes a bad statistic instead of a patient. She becomes a 'bad mom'.

I'm just not on board with it. This isn't a policy where one-size-fits-all. The end does not justify the means. I reject it.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 11th July 2018 at 12:48 PM. Reason: added pnd, missed a word
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:52 PM   #73
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
My beef with this is that is just goes too far for a good goal.

Limit the formula marketing incentive to the health system. Fine.
No posters and tri-fold brocures. Great.
But do not limit, or even delay, a woman's CHOICE to use formula with guidelines that require her to jump through hoops to get it.
But then your criticisms aren't hoops to jump through. If you want to raise your child on or with formula, not getting a free sample isn't a hoop to jump through. Text existing on the packaging of your formula isn't a hoop to jump through.

On the other hand, having to sign a thing saying you understand formula isn't as good as breastmilk would be a hoop to jump through - but none of the guidelines recommend that.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:14 PM   #74
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But then your criticisms aren't hoops to jump through. If you want to raise your child on or with formula, not getting a free sample isn't a hoop to jump through. Text existing on the packaging of your formula isn't a hoop to jump through.

On the other hand, having to sign a thing saying you understand formula isn't as good as breastmilk would be a hoop to jump through - but none of the guidelines recommend that.
Hoops is the wrong word. Deprivation maybe?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:17 PM   #75
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hoops is the wrong word. Deprivation maybe?
You can't raise an infant on a couple of free samples, so I don't understand how not getting free samples can be characterized as deprivation.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:20 PM   #76
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
You can't raise an infant on a couple of free samples, so I don't understand how not getting free samples can be characterized as deprivation.
So what is the word for denying someone of receiving something with value for free?

...other than the many choice libertarian words I have for it.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 11th July 2018 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #77
Sabrina
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So what is the word for denying someone of receiving something with value for free?

...other than the many choice libertarian words I have for it.
Who said anything about denying someone of free samples? The point I and others are trying to make is that we don't want that to be the ONLY option; we want women to receive information regarding both choices, and if a woman then makes the choice that formula is best for her and her child, so be it. We aren't trying to stop hospitals from handing out samples of formula; we're simply trying to enforce the idea that formula is not the only choice here, and we're hoping that women, once they are educated about both options, would then make the best choice for her and her infant.

Then of course there's the issue that, post hospital, those free samples dry up pretty quickly, and if a woman was only told about the benefits of formula, suddenly she's on the hook for paying for it when her breasts are producing something as good or better for free. Your buzzword I believe. Free samples of formula aren't the only thing that's available for free, and breast milk is available for free far longer than formula is, and bonus, absent being pumped and kept frozen or refrigerated, it never expires. Again, if she weighs the pros and cons and decides that formula is better for her and her child, that's her choice; I won't stand in her way. But if your lookout is for free food for your kid, I would point out that Mom produces everything baby needs for free for at least a year, if not longer, so I'd think you'd weigh down more on the side of breastfeeding then.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #78
Lithrael
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Sabrina: Part of the code does indeed say people shouldn't hand out free samples outside of a regulated assistance context. But yeah, samples or no samples is not the part I'm hung up on, personally.

I'll just link the post that links the texts the OP is about since we're at the top of a new page.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8&postcount=66

Bob: The point of free samples is to get people who aren't actually very interested to try something, so that those who like it will pay for more. Many people feel this is fine if it's nibbles on toothpicks, not very cool if it's drugs.

If you wanna argue by definition? "Deprivation: the damaging lack of material benefits considered to be basic necessities in a society." Not the word I'd use for disallowing free samples. In any case you seem to have a bigger beef than I'm prepared to argue so I'll bow out.

Last edited by Lithrael; 11th July 2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:41 PM   #79
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I honestly can't fathom *choosing* to formula feed.

Yes, there are times when it's necessary, but why would a person go through all the rigmarole with bottles and nipples and temperature and smelly diapers and ear infections and so on when the other choice is right there when you need it, at the perfect temperature, and full of antibodies. It changes constantly to match the baby's needs, not just at growth stages but at different times of day.

Sore nipples, even cracked and bleeding ones, heal rapidly. In my case, the entire latching cramps and nipple pain thing were gone in less than a week with each child.

And if you're more interested in being able to drink rather than nursing, you might want to look at your drinking habits and your reasons for having a child.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:46 PM   #80
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I can see using formula when it's a necessity. I have trouble fathoming why people have children when they're uninterested in them. I know it happens, I just can't understand their reasoning (I was stuffed in a postpartum ward with 3 of them when I had my second child).
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