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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 18th July 2018, 06:32 PM   #361
pharphis
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm a little surprised nobody has commented on this yet.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/680443...orkshire-jail/




"Her erect penis" - we're not in Kansas any more, Toto. Would someone try to explain why the asserted feeling in this guy's head that he's a woman is sufficient reason to put often vulnerable women prisoners at risk of rape?
Here's the original comment.

To make my question as clear as possible because I don't write very clearly.

1) adding a male = risk of rape and all other sexual violence
2) adding a female = risk of all other sexual violence but not the specific label rape
3) You get one of the 2 choices above: Which one is more likely to cause harm to the inmate, and is it so significantly worse that we need to prevent the possibility?

Some other thoughts (in prison that we're talking about):
A) Should sexual offenders be kept away from non-offenders? From everyone?
B) Same rules but for violent people?
C) Same rules but only for murders?
D) Same rules but only for rapists?
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:35 PM   #362
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Why do you think there are women's prisons in the first place? Shouldn't all prisoners be housed together anyway?
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:38 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It isn't rape. It's sexual assault.

I don't know what your problem is with this. I noted, correctly, that a woman in prison in England could not be raped if there wasn't a man in the prison. That's it. Of course she could be assaulted in some other way, including sexually, by another woman. But she couldn't be raped.

The legal and standard definition of rape here, and from me, isn't the same as the definition you use or there. I was explaining what rape, that is what actions that are called rape normally and legally here, is called besides rape there (and by you from what I can tell).

I don't know what your problem is with that.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:38 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The CDC calls both 'forced penetration' and 'made to penetrate' as 'sexual violence', and iirc call both 'rape'. I don't know that there are any states that don't do basically the same; both are 'rape'.
Just some quick searching and I found this:

https://cdc.gov/violenceprevention/p...atasheet-a.pdf

They seem to place "made to penetrate" in a different category here.

Quote:
- Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and
5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence
other than rape, such as being made to penetrate

someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted
sexual contact, or non-contact unwanted sexual
experiences, in the 12 months prior to the survey.
- 4.8% of men reported they were made to penetrate
someone else at some time in their lives.
as well as other places on that page


edit: to be clear, this is just how the CDC categorizes things. Sometimes but not always this will match the legal definitions, if I understand correctly.

Last edited by pharphis; 18th July 2018 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:40 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why do you think there are women's prisons in the first place? Shouldn't all prisoners be housed together anyway?
You're dodging the question. Your concern was the risk of harm (specifically rape) by adding a male. If that's your concern, I'm asking you to justify it.

If your real reason is just that you think males and females (sex not gender) should be separate then whatever, I don't have a strong opinion tbh
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:41 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The legal and standard definition of rape here, and from me, isn't the same as the definition you use or there. I was explaining what rape, that is what actions that are called rape normally and legally here, is called besides rape there (and by you from what I can tell).

I don't know what your problem is with that.

I don't have a problem with it. You were the one who went off on one screaming that I was wrong, when I was simply describing the situation in the jurisdiction under discussion. "Your mileage may vary" as they say, and that's fine, but using that to attack me for being "spectacularly wrong" (or whichever derogatory term you reached for at that point, I'm losing count) is out of order.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:42 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't have a problem with it. You were the one who went off on one screaming that I was wrong, when I was simply describing the situation in the jurisdiction under discussion. "Your mileage may vary" as they say, and that's fine, but using that to attack me for being "spectacularly wrong" (or whichever derogatory term you reached for at that point, I'm losing count) is out of order.
That's fair enough but surely you can see why your comment could be taken the way it was, since you never said legal/law/local until prodded? Most people aren't talking about the law exclusively.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:49 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
You're dodging the question. Your concern was the risk of harm (specifically rape) by adding a male. If that's your concern, I'm asking you to justify it.

If your real reason is just that you think males and females (sex not gender) should be separate then whatever, I don't have a strong opinion tbh

It's already the case that males and females are housed in separate prisons. I don't really think it's up to me to justify that. And yes, I think that this is one of the areas where segregation should by default be by actual sex. That newspaper report is an example of what can happen when the gender agenda is pandered to to the extent of moving an intact male into a women's prison because he says he "feels" female.

This example wasn't about safeguarding the man, it was about validating his feelings. The women in prison were put at risk as part of a treatment plan to support the trans-identifying man in his feelings. This should not be happening.

There may be examples where a post-SRS trans-sexual can't be kept safe in a male prison, although I'd be asking why not, or where it would be a disproportionate punishment for example where someone had transitioned as a child (as in the US case linked to above), where an exceptional case might be made for a prisoner born male to be housed in a woman's prison. That's why I said, by default. Individual cases can then be discussed.

However the idea that any violent male prisoner should be moved to a woman's prison the minute he announces that he identifies as trans, as was certainly mooted for Ian Huntley of all people, is preposterous and poses a huge threat to the women in prison, many of whom are extremely vulnerable and have been abused by men on the outside.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:51 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
That's fair enough but surely you can see why your comment could be taken the way it was, since you never said legal/law/local until prodded? Most people aren't talking about the law exclusively.

No, I don't. Where I live, which is in a closely-related jurisdiction to the one under discussion (and in fact I lived in the jurisdiction under discussion for 25 years), that is what the word rape means. It's what everyone understands by the term. Jumping down my throat telling me that I'm spectacularly wrong because it means something more vague where you live, without even checking, is preposterous. America isn't the whole world, nor is it the benchmark by which everything should be judged. This discussion from the get-go has been about events in England.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:07 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Aren't women already at risk of rape in prison?
As a punishment or via guard yes, in the sense of someone doing it for sexual gratification, no. Prison rape isn't what you think it is and the dynamics in a women's versus men's prison are drastically different.

But you know, there is a total shortage of prison related books,films, series, Web series, lectures ,magazines, etc. So I can understand why you wouldn't be able to do a half hour of research on the subject.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:32 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
As a punishment or via guard yes, in the sense of someone doing it for sexual gratification, no. Prison rape isn't what you think it is and the dynamics in a women's versus men's prison are drastically different.

But you know, there is a total shortage of prison related books,films, series, Web series, lectures ,magazines, etc. So I can understand why you wouldn't be able to do a half hour of research on the subject.
so yes?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:29 PM   #372
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You know, if your best argument is "it isn't legally defined as real rape when we do it", you need to find different arguments.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:55 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I certainly saw a couple of photos of it. It was similar weapons to the things that were exhibited in the San Fransisco library a month or two ago. Maybe the library exhibits inspired their creation, I don't know. It was an overt demonstration from the "punch a TERF" contingent and no attempt was made to prevent it.

I saw a twitter thread where someone was challenging one of the "lesbian with a penis" contingent about this apparent incitement to violence and he started backtracking and claiming it was only symbolic to show these uppity women who was boss, of course nobody would dream of actually using the things, so it was all fine. And besides, it was entirely justified because refusing to recognise a man as a lesbian and even referring to him as "he" is "literal violence" which more than deserves a violent response. It was all pretty unpleasant.
Pride is a well photographed event so I'm surprised I couldn't find any photos of this (a surprising number of photos of Trump holding a baseball bat turned up though in some versions of the searches I tried )

I'm also surprised that no media outlet, that I could find, has commented on it. Or that the Met police where ok with people marching with weapons. It is also in violation of Pride's code of conduct:

"2. Pride in London will not tolerate any threatening, violent or offensive behavior against its volunteers, staff, other parade participants, police, security personnel or members of the public."

https://prideinlondon.org/code-of-conduct

So at the least I'd encourage anyone with evidence e.g. photos contacting Pride to inform them of violation of the code as any group doing so shouldn't, and I would think won't, be allowed to march next year.
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:01 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
As a punishment or via guard yes, in the sense of someone doing it for sexual gratification, no. Prison rape isn't what you think it is and the dynamics in a women's versus men's prison are drastically different.

But you know, there is a total shortage of prison related books,films, series, Web series, lectures ,magazines, etc. So I can understand why you wouldn't be able to do a half hour of research on the subject.
Women are forced into sexual relationships in female prisons by females who want sex. Yes assault is also used to control and so on but like in male prisons some prisoners want sex and will resort to force to have sex.
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mid View Post
Pride is a well photographed event so I'm surprised I couldn't find any photos of this (a surprising number of photos of Trump holding a baseball bat turned up though in some versions of the searches I tried )

I'm also surprised that no media outlet, that I could find, has commented on it. Or that the Met police where ok with people marching with weapons. It is also in violation of Pride's code of conduct:

"2. Pride in London will not tolerate any threatening, violent or offensive behavior against its volunteers, staff, other parade participants, police, security personnel or members of the public."

https://prideinlondon.org/code-of-conduct

So at the least I'd encourage anyone with evidence e.g. photos contacting Pride to inform them of violation of the code as any group doing so shouldn't, and I would think won't, be allowed to march next year.
First of all let's see the evidence...
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:27 AM   #376
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This video gives a good overview of transgender activist ideology. It helps if you're familiar with Postmodern thought and, I think, with the narcissistic personality structure, in which a fantasy reality is central and not believing the story a narcissist is telling themselves about themselves is experienced as narcissistic injury, i.e. "literal violence" ("misgendering")

Gender is seen as fixed, something unchangeable we are born with, directly equivalent to sexual orientation. Hence gender supersedes biology. A penis can be female, a man a woman, a man a lesbian etc. This crazy, narcissistic worldview is gaining traction in legislation and policy.



'Critically Examining the doctrine of gender identity'

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:30 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
First of all let's see the evidence...
It would be nice to see some
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:33 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
*shrug* seems like a weird reason
What's weird about it? Do you think that women should passively accept patriarchal power structures?
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:41 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You know, if your best argument is "it isn't legally defined as real rape when we do it", you need to find different arguments.
So you're argument is that because women "rape" women in women's prisons, therefore men should be let into women's prisons to rape them as well. Is that what you're saying?
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Old 19th July 2018, 12:41 AM   #380
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You've caught us... Transwomen are the PatriarchyTM's secret plan to infiltrate the Female world with surgically altered spies. We got the idea from watching Avatar.
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Old 19th July 2018, 01:07 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You've caught us... Transwomen are the PatriarchyTM's secret plan to infiltrate the Female world with surgically altered spies. We got the idea from watching Avatar.
Was my question too difficult for you to answer without strawmanning?


Transwomen are men, socialised as men. Most aren't surgically altered. They can have "female" penises instead now. Transgender activists do indeed infiltrate women's spaces (and bodies) and feel perfectly and angrily entitled to do so. That's what the lesbians in the OP are protesting.
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Old 19th July 2018, 01:32 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
God save us all from men who have studied feminism.

I'd rather be saved from grossly unuseful ad hominems that don't address the argument but attempt to simply shut down the argument by implying that the other side isn't allowed or able to make them.

You think that's good logic? You think that's good debate? A whole half of the population banned from even discussing the issue?

Do you find this type of outrageous attempt to control who's allowed to contribute often works?
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Old 19th July 2018, 04:22 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Google says it's 'assault by penetration'.
Yes, and it carries exactly the same potential sentence, with the same possible mitigation (r.e. belief of consent).

The wording of the two offences is virtually identical*, with the only differences being that Rape includes penetration of the mouth, while Assault by Penetration requires that, "the penetration is sexual." Everything could actually have been covered under a single offence definition - as either "Rape" or "assault by Penetration" - with appropriate wording.

* PDF of whole Act here - Sectons 1 & 2 on pages 7 & 8 are the ones in question.

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Old 19th July 2018, 04:39 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, and it carries exactly the same potential sentence, with the same possible mitigation (r.e. belief of consent).

The wording of the two offences is virtually identical*, with the only differences being that Rape includes penetration of the mouth, while Assault by Penetration requires that, "the penetration is sexual." Everything could actually have been covered under a single offence definition - as either "Rape" or "assault by Penetration" - with appropriate wording.

* PDF of whole Act here - Sectons 1 & 2 on pages 7 & 8 are the ones in question.

I thnk Rolfe thinks that sexual assault involving penis is just much worse and more traumatising that sexual assault that doesn't involve a penis.

I think that belittles the experience of those men and woman who have been grossly abused but who just happen not to have had that abuse involve a penis.

If it is not the case that Rolfe thinks that sexual assault involving a penis is more terrible than that that doesn't, then why are we even having the argument over what is and isn't, in terms only of the legislation, rape?
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Old 19th July 2018, 04:40 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There may be examples where a post-SRS trans-sexual can't be kept safe in a male prison, although I'd be asking why not, or where it would be a disproportionate punishment for example where someone had transitioned as a child (as in the US case linked to above), where an exceptional case might be made for a prisoner born male to be housed in a woman's prison. That's why I said, by default. Individual cases can then be discussed.
I think we all get that placing a pre-op prisoner in the prison of their identified gender may be an issue, but you actually seem to be suggesting that post-op transwomen should only exceptionally be housed in female prisons (or post-op transmen in male prisons, for that matter). Is that correct?

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Old 19th July 2018, 07:57 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh God, not this "denying people's existence" crap again.

It is absolutely relevant that the members of this particular aggressive, violent, bullying group are men who identify as trans. That's the basis of their behaviour. You can't separate that behaviour from the motivation for that behaviour.

You've mentioned trans women a lot.

How do you feel about trans men?


She's already told us that.

Transmen are all nothing more than sad, confused, natural-born butch lesbians who have been deluded by ... someone(?) ... into believing they are transgender.
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Old 19th July 2018, 08:04 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
She's already told us that.

Transmen are all nothing more than sad, confused, natural-born butch lesbians who have been deluded by ... someone(?) ... into believing they are transgender.
And then of course gay transmen can not possibly exist. So look at how truely messed up they apparently are.
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Old 19th July 2018, 08:10 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
What's weird about it? Do you think that women should passively accept patriarchal power structures?
It seems like a weird reason to cite. A "political class" isn't the first thing I'd think of as a reason to categorize people lol

Also I have no idea what the second sentence has to do with anything. I'm no less accepting of trans males vs females, and I also largely don't believe in so-called "patriarchal power structures" and more than "matriarchal power structures"
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Old 19th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'd rather be saved from grossly unuseful ad hominems that don't address the argument but attempt to simply shut down the argument by implying that the other side isn't allowed or able to make them.

You think that's good logic? You think that's good debate? A whole half of the population banned from even discussing the issue?

Do you find this type of outrageous attempt to control who's allowed to contribute often works?
You are also trying to stop discussion.

Both of you believe that the discussion is inappropriate, only your way is right and you both use claims of sexism and phobia instead of actually debating.

How have neither of you mentioned how small any sample size would be? Or how hard it would be, in general to get any statistics?

How have you both not discussed that and decided upon anything reassembling a metric to look into the issue?

This is what happens when you pick a side and dig in. Debate is halted, literally, neither of you are saying anything that has the slightest chance of convincing the other person, and you both know it.

The issue at hand is actually how much freedom of association any group should have. What are the moral rights and wrongs of saying "this event or space is for group x as defined by us". But because it is being framed as a sensitive topic NO PROGRESS IS BEING MADE.

Why don't you two try and debate the larger topic? I'm sure that you could come to a conclusion if it wasn't essentially a philosophical pissing contest.
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Old 19th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I thnk Rolfe thinks that sexual assault involving penis is just much worse and more traumatising that sexual assault that doesn't involve a penis.

I think that belittles the experience of those men and woman who have been grossly abused but who just happen not to have had that abuse involve a penis.

If it is not the case that Rolfe thinks that sexual assault involving a penis is more terrible than that that doesn't, then why are we even having the argument over what is and isn't, in terms only of the legislation, rape?
Can a finger or broomstick lead to pregnancy?
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Old 19th July 2018, 02:07 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Can a finger or broomstick lead to pregnancy?
How is that in any way relevant?
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Old 20th July 2018, 01:08 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
It seems like a weird reason to cite. A "political class" isn't the first thing I'd think of as a reason to categorize people lol

Also I have no idea what the second sentence has to do with anything. I'm no less accepting of trans males vs females, and I also largely don't believe in so-called "patriarchal power structures" and more than "matriarchal power structures"
It's interesting that the testimony of probably hundreds of thousands of women all over the world and spanning centuries describing their experience of subjugation at the hands of men and male political power means nothing to you. Organising as a class allows one to identify and oppose oppression that is specifically directed at a group precisely because of its class; e.g. the working class, black people, homosexual people etc.

I am accepting of both trans females and trans males. What we do with our lives and our bodies is our own business. On a personal level I tend to prefer the company of men who behave more sensitively and consciously than many unreconstructed sexist men do. This thread isn't about them. It's about a politically powerful group of politically-motivated mens' rights activists espousing a specific women-oppressing doctrine and successfully pushing their dangerous and deluded woo into legislation.

I do not accept the stance of a narcissistic cult of fanatical men's rights activists using a quasi-relgious "transgender" doctrine to invade women's and children's lives, bodies and political spaces and institutions.

Perhaps living in an apolitical bubble allows you to be more accepting of men so convinced that their male bodies are actually female bodies that when a lesbian ( a female homosexual) isn't sexually attracted to them and their "girl penises" they aggressively accuse her of transphobia.
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Old 20th July 2018, 07:28 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
It's interesting that the testimony of probably hundreds of thousands of women all over the world and spanning centuries describing their experience of subjugation at the hands of men and male political power means nothing to you. Organising as a class allows one to identify and oppose oppression that is specifically directed at a group precisely because of its class; e.g. the working class, black people, homosexual people etc.

I am accepting of both trans females and trans males. What we do with our lives and our bodies is our own business. On a personal level I tend to prefer the company of men who behave more sensitively and consciously than many unreconstructed sexist men do. This thread isn't about them. It's about a politically powerful group of politically-motivated mens' rights activists espousing a specific women-oppressing doctrine and successfully pushing their dangerous and deluded woo into legislation.

I do not accept the stance of a narcissistic cult of fanatical men's rights activists using a quasi-relgious "transgender" doctrine to invade women's and children's lives, bodies and political spaces and institutions.

Perhaps living in an apolitical bubble allows you to be more accepting of men so convinced that their male bodies are actually female bodies that when a lesbian ( a female homosexual) isn't sexually attracted to them and their "girl penises" they aggressively accuse her of transphobia.

The problem with the "subjugation at the hands of men" narrative is that it includes male victims as well, and female perpetrators, unless you completely remove all female power at present and throughout history (which feminists tend to do). Yes, it is mostly men sitting in particular seats of political power, but that doesn't mean it is "men" who are in power. Particular 0.1%ers are (and their wives). Today it's the same except women now hold power in the highest offices as well as dominate almost all gendered lobbying efforts.


I suspect the overlap of the bullies you describe with MRAs is near-zero. Almost no one in the "progressive" sphere identifies with MRAs or the MRM in general. You probably couldn't find a single example of someone in that camp who does so, because both camps are very small and come at gender politics mostly from the exact opposite perspective (feminist vs non-feminist)

Now I do see MRAs such as myself disagree with the belief structure surrounding many of the anti-trans talking points (women are put at a huge risk because men are so dangerous, they're pedos, they will take advantage of said policies to abuse others <--- always framed unidirectionally as male perpetrators and female victims) but I also see people in the MRM who are anti-trans in some regard or another. I've never seen someone say that rejecting sex with a trans women is transphobic, except satirically.

Hell, even circumcision, one of if not the biggest issue facing men worldwide as well as some of the western world is somewhat controversial in the MRM. Some of them just buy into the religious arguments, have extreme libertarian views, are unable to cope with the fact that they themselves have been mutilated, buy into the health arguments...

So I don't really buy that your opposition here is MRAs. I also don't buy the notion that it is "male entitlement" at the root of any of it.
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Old 20th July 2018, 09:11 AM   #394
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An example of what I mean is a common example I see in the MRM sphere:

1) Father complains that there is no changing table for his child in the men's room, that they are always in the women's room.
2) He uses it anyway
3) Sometimes he gets dirty looks or complaints
4) He shares this with others online (ex/ r/mensrights)
5) 5% of the comments suggest he just "tell them you identify as a woman"
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Old 20th July 2018, 10:56 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Can a finger or broomstick lead to pregnancy?

A seven year old girl or a 70 year old woman isn't going to get pregnant either.

Are you suggesting they can't be raped?
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Old 20th July 2018, 07:13 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
The problem with the "subjugation at the hands of men" narrative is that it includes male victims as well, and female perpetrators,...
This isn't a problem at all.

Working class men are disadvantaged compared to upper class men. That doesn't mean economic class oppression doesn't exist. Oppressed working class men gain an advantage over women simply by being born male, in that they will very likely be paid more for their labour than women for doing exactly the same work, for example. This advantage doesn't negate the disadvantages these men face because of their socio-economic status. That there have been individual women in powerful positions doesn't wipe out the fact that historically, political power has nearly always been wielded by and for men as a class.

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
...unless you completely remove all female power at present and throughout history (which feminists tend to do).
No, they don't. They tend to celebrate it.

Quote:
Yes, it is mostly men sitting in particular seats of political power, but that doesn't mean it is "men" who are in power.
LOL. The invisible powerful women!

Quote:
Particular 0.1%ers are (and their wives).
Yeah, right! Women still get paid less for their labour. Often they don't get paid at all.

Quote:
Today it's the same except women now hold power in the highest offices as well as dominate almost all gendered lobbying efforts.
Yes, two centuries of feminism has been politically successful and made real gains but the pay gap still exists between men and women all over the world. Money is power.


Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I suspect the overlap of the bullies you describe with MRAs is near-zero. Almost no one in the "progressive" sphere identifies with MRAs or the MRM in general. You probably couldn't find a single example of someone in that camp who does so, because both camps are very small and come at gender politics mostly from the exact opposite perspective (feminist vs non-feminist)
What you personally "suspect" is irrelevant to whether or nor this bullying exists.

The feminist vs non-feminist perspective is a false dichotomy. Third wave feminism is not the same as second wave feminism, for example. The third wave has largely accepted and been undermined by Postmodern identity politics. Previous feminist political gains are being reversed.

The "progressive sphere" has been strongly influenced by transgender identity activist doctrine/magical thinking. Many on the left are terrified of speaking out about transgender activist bullying. Progressives ( in contrast to conservatives) are strongly motivated by empathy and automatically identify with minorities and underdogs. They are easy meat for guilt trippers claiming superior victimhood, as male transgender activists do!

I linked to examples of transgender activist bullying, above. The unselfconscious use of the slur "TERFs" in the title of this thread and in the comments are also examples of this. There is no such thing as a "TERF".

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Now I do see MRAs such as myself disagree with the belief structure surrounding many of the anti-trans talking points (women are put at a huge risk because men are so dangerous, they're pedos, they will take advantage of said policies to abuse others <--- always framed unidirectionally as male perpetrators and female victims) but I also see people in the MRM who are anti-trans in some regard or another. I've never seen someone say that rejecting sex with a trans women is transphobic, except satirically.
The "talking points" aren't anti-trans. They are anti transgender identity activist political doctrine.

Feminists are and have been natural allies of anyone not conforming to gender rules, including trans people. Feminism seeks get rid of gender altogether.

You need to get out more, apparently. The notion that lesbians rejecting sex with trans women (i.e men) is transphobic is central to transgender-activist thinking. That's why the Pride protest explicitly referenced it. "Lesbians are female homosexuals" was one of their banners

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
.Hell, even circumcision, one of if not the biggest issue facing men worldwide as well as some of the western world is somewhat controversial in the MRM. Some of them just buy into the religious arguments, have extreme libertarian views, are unable to cope with the fact that they themselves have been mutilated, buy into the health arguments...
Circumcision is genital mutilation and is most prevalent in patriarchal (male God) religions and psychologically very harmful. It is a form of male violence. There are probably bigger issues facing men than this, though.

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
So I don't really buy that your opposition here is MRAs. I also don't buy the notion that it is "male entitlement" at the root of any of it.
Transgender identity political activism is a subset of mens' rights activism. The activists are campaigning for the rights of men (transwomen).

Women do not have an issue with transmen entering women-only spaces because transmen are women.


What you personally "buy" is your opinion. Thanks for sharing it.


It seems "patriarchy" is a trigger word for you! Whether or not you believe male domination or patriarchy exists isn't so important to the topic of this thread, which is the "Get the L out of LGBT' protest by lesbians at London Pride this year. Maybe you could have a chat with the Pope if you really are unable to identify sex-based power structures.

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
(women are put at a huge risk because men are so dangerous, they're pedos, they will take advantage of said policies to abuse others)
= strawman, unless you can demonstrate that anyone has ever said "they're pedos". Why wouldn't predatory men take advantage of permission to enter female toilets, prisons and other female-only spaces? Some men, quite a lot of them, are dangerous and sexually abusive.

Women are afraid of walking home alone at night because they are afraid of men. This seems perfectly reasonable! Men are also afraid of men in this context.


The transgender identity political activist cult is indeed relatively small, numerically, but it is politically very successful and has been able to influence national legal policy and law in several countries, normalising for, example, "transitioning" children, as part of a highly lucrative "transitioning" industry for the medical/pharmaceutical complex and in getting men (XY) who subjectively "identify" as women legally treated as real women (XX). This is what eradicating women as a class looks like.

Rolfe posted this link earlier, which is worth reading:

https://astroterf.wordpress.com/2018...the-lgbt-nest/

Facebook is blocking it because it has been reported as abusive.

Who did you think might have found it abusive and reported it as such?
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Old 20th July 2018, 07:15 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
A seven year old girl or a 70 year old woman isn't going to get pregnant either.

Are you suggesting they can't be raped?
What an idiotic question. God have mercy on us all!
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Old 20th July 2018, 09:19 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Transgender identity political activism is a subset of mens' rights activism. The activists are campaigning for the rights of men (transwomen).
FWIW, the person on whose Facebook feed I first saw the story, and who was protesting against the incident at Pride, was a transman (what Rolfe would apparently describe as 'trans-identifying woman').
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:35 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
FWIW, the person on whose Facebook feed I first saw the story, and who was protesting against the incident at Pride, was a transman (what Rolfe would apparently describe as 'trans-identifying woman').
Rolfe is right, transmen are women. Do you disagree?

Transgender political activists are almost exclusively men, campaigning for the rights of transwomen, who are men. They are explicitly antifeminist. Their oft-stated enemy is "TERFs" - "Punch a TERF".

Transgender activist woo has infected progressive politics in many areas, including the Labour Party, women and men and particularly student politics. It is a powerful cult and few people are aware how profoundly anti-science and anti-women (and anti-children) their agenda is. It's perfectly natural to want to defend the rights of minorities when it seems that they are under attack. Women, BTW, also police (enforce) female genital mutilation.

(See The Handmaid's Tale for further information).
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:52 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Rolfe is right, transmen are women. Do you disagree?
I certainly do. I would also disagree with an assertion that "transwomen are men."

Quote:
Transgender political activists are almost exclusively men, campaigning for the rights of transwomen, who are men. They are explicitly antifeminist.
Transgender activists are pushing back against radical feminists, because radical feminists are pushing back against transgender activists.

Conversely, transgender activists are not pushing back against MRAs or even men in general, because MRAs/men in general are not pushing back against transgender activists.

Those activists are both transwomen (not men) and transmen (not women), as well as ciswomen and cismen.

Quote:
(See The Handmaid's Tale for further information).
Relying on works of fiction, however accomplished, is not really a solid tactic.
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