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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 17th July 2018, 09:20 AM   #81
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Essentially? The marketplace of ideas. Concepts which can only survive unopposed just... aren't worth factoring into the debate.

Is this some perfect exact science? No but it works more often than not.
Does it work, though? Universities are supposed to be the marketplace of ideas. Post-graduate life is about applying the ideas you've chosen in that marketplace.

The risk is that Universities become a safe haven for ideas that cannot survive unopposed, and that graduates carry forward into their community a need to make the community more like the University. Instead of discarding bad ideas on contact with the "real world", making that world more tolerant of those bad ideas. Academia isn't flooding society with open radfems, but it seems pretty clear that the Overton window is shifting in that direction.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:21 AM   #82
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I'm utterly bewildered that so many people get so hung up on the sexuality of others.

If you don't want to sleep with them, why do you care?
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #83
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My ultimate point was, some of the "post-fact" discussion popping up surrounding gender, extra genders, gender roles, gender fluidity, and all the rest are valid topics for conversation. Some of it is a bit silly, and people shouldn't be afraid to point that out or suggest it. Some anti-trans sites have rolled the two subjects together, however, making it difficult to have the conversation without also seeming to be criticizing transgender individuals.

I don't know what the solution is. Everyone being mad on the internet is not likely to be it, though.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The risk is that Universities become a safe haven for ideas that cannot survive unopposed, and that graduates carry forward into their community a need to make the community more like the University.
I guess I just see it as a self correcting problem. Even these days where tribalism and "get comfortable in your bubble"ism is easier than ever it's still functionally impossible to not have to deal with the real world.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:35 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm utterly bewildered that so many people get so hung up on the sexuality of others.

If you don't want to sleep with them, why do you care?
There's more to it than that. Consider this scenario:

I'm a man that likes regular sessions of hetero sex. Missionary position preferred, but I don't mind experimenting. Strictly as a man-and-woman arrangement, though, okay?

Then a man propositions me for some hetero sex. I quite reasonably decline, on the grounds that sex between two men isn't actually hetero. The man says that he identifies as a woman, so what's the problem? I tell him the problem is that I don't identify him as a woman. He says I'm a transphobic bigot. And then he goes on to start a national advocacy campaign to make sure my attitude is shamed and shunned. Pretty soon, saying transwomen don't excite me becomes a hate crime. I say it out loud, my business gets boycotted, I get fired from my job, the police come around...
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's more to it than that. Consider this scenario:

I'm a man that likes regular sessions of hetero sex. Missionary position preferred, but I don't mind experimenting. Strictly as a man-and-woman arrangement, though, okay?

Then a man propositions me for some hetero sex. I quite reasonably decline, on the grounds that sex between two men isn't actually hetero.
Why do you need to give a reason, beyond, "I don't want to" ?
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's more to it than that. Consider this scenario:

I'm a man that likes regular sessions of hetero sex. Missionary position preferred, but I don't mind experimenting. Strictly as a man-and-woman arrangement, though, okay?

Then a man propositions me for some hetero sex. I quite reasonably decline, on the grounds that sex between two men isn't actually hetero. The man says that he identifies as a woman, so what's the problem? I tell him the problem is that I don't identify him as a woman. He says me I'm a transphobic bigot. And then he goes on to start a national advocacy campaign to make sure my attitude is shamed and shunned. Pretty soon, saying transwomen don't excite me becomes a hate crime. I say it out loud, my business gets boycotted, I get fired from my job, the police come around...

This just falls into the 'someone who doesn't want t sleep with you' category.

Nobody actually needs to give a reason for 'no'. "No, I don't want to sleep with you" is all that's required.


Anyone who goes off on a full on political campaign because someone told them 'no', needs to get over themselves, pronto.


I actually think my statement still stands. Within your scenario, it doesn't matter what your genitals and sexual orientation are. All that matters is that you don't want to sleep with the person asking. They just need to move on without being an arse about it. It's not your sexuality they're railing against, they're clearly just **** at dealing with rejection.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:50 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Why do you need to give a reason, beyond, "I don't want to" ?
Because we will reach a point in the future where some, maybe not a majority or even a huge minority but enough for it to not be dismissed as statistically meaningless, will consider such a view a form of bigotry.

Given the language and arguments being used I feel it very likely that the idea that not sleeping with someone because of their physical gender will be seen by some as akin to not sleeping with someone because they are a different race.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:53 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because we will reach a point in the future where some, maybe not a majority or even a huge minority but enough for it to not be dismissed as statistically meaningless, will consider such a view a form of bigotry.

I really don't think so. I think there are a vanishingly small number of people who would have this attitude. They just make up a greater percentage of twitter (spit) twits than they do of the general public.

Essentially, they are empty vessels making a lot of noise. Most people of non-conventional sexuality are probably extremely embarrassed by them.
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Old 17th July 2018, 09:55 AM   #90
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When people graciously accept the "no," everything is peachy. A lot of people don't, though, especially drunk people. I've had to give "reasons" more times than I cared to in the past, in hopes of avoiding a tense scene. (I'm referring to responses to hetero men, however. I've never been hit on by a transperson, at least, not to my knowledge.)

The best reaction I ever got to a polite refusal was this guy at my friend's birthday party. We'd been chatting some, he got a bit drunker and more emboldened, came back over and started standing closer, saying he'd like to get to know me better, finally just flat-out propositioned me.

I sort of shuffled away and said something like, "Oh, I've really enjoyed our conversation, but I'm really not looking for anything like that right now. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong idea, I didn't mean to." Mincing and hemming and hawwing.

And this guy, bless him, he just cheerfully said, "Okay! No problem. Dude's gotta try." And didn't act weird at all after that. Everyone should be more like that random drunk guy at my friend's birthday party.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:00 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then a man propositions me for some hetero sex. I quite reasonably decline, on the grounds that sex between two men isn't actually hetero. The man says that he identifies as a woman, so what's the problem? I tell him the problem is that I don't identify him as a woman. He says I'm a transphobic bigot. And then he goes on to start a national advocacy campaign to make sure my attitude is shamed and shunned. Pretty soon, saying transwomen don't excite me becomes a hate crime. I say it out loud, my business gets boycotted, I get fired from my job, the police come around...
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Why do you need to give a reason, beyond, "I don't want to" ?

And while not just saying "No", but instead engaging in a complicated debate on the issue, he makes at least one unfounded generalization, and one actually bigoted comment.

Just because you don't consider this to be "heterosexual sex" doesn't mean that no one ever considers it to be so. By making this first point, you basically tell this person that they will never, ever have the type of sex they desire, whether it's with you or anyone else. Not only is this dismissive of the transwoman in question, it's dismissive of all the cismen who aren't you, who might consider having sex with them.

And of course, "I don't identify him as a woman" goes straight to the heart of transphobia, so maybe they should start a national campaign to shame you.

And you could have avoided it all by just saying "You're not my type". I've heard that my whole life, and haven't started a national shaming movement yet.

And these people aren't even just getting into a debate with individual transwomen on these issues, they're going out of their way to build websites and stage public protests just to make sure that absolutely everyone knows they don't want to have sex with transwomen. That goes so far beyond "just not my type" that it's simply ridiculous to try to defend them using that argument.

I mean, how are they fundamentally different from some frat bro wearing a "No Fat Chicks" shirt?
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:48 AM   #92
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disagreeing with someone's label != transphobia
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:01 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
disagreeing with someone's label != transphobia

As I said, it goes to the heart of it. "You're not a woman/man" is the fundamental basis for all the anti-trans bigotry. Disagree with that all you like, but you're still wrong.

"Why are you in this bathroom? You're not a woman/man!"
"Why are you in girl/boy scouts? You're not a woman/man!"
"Why are you coaching girls/boys? You're not a woman/man!"
"Why are you attending this bridal shower/bachelor party? You're not a woman/man!"
"Why are you wearing a dress/suit and tie? You're not a woman/man!"

"Why am I beating the crap out of you? You're not a woman/man!"
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:05 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
As I said, it goes to the heart of it. "You're not a woman/man" is the fundamental basis for all the anti-trans bigotry. Disagree with that all you like, but you're still wrong.

"Why are you in this bathroom? You're not a woman/man!"
Don't care.

Quote:
"Why are you in girl/boy scouts? You're not a woman/man!"
Don't care

Quote:
"Why are you coaching girls/boys? You're not a woman/man!"
Don't care

Quote:
"Why are you attending this bridal shower/bachelor party? You're not a woman/man!"
Don't care

Quote:
"Why are you wearing a dress/suit and tie? You're not a woman/man!"
Don't care

Quote:
"Why am I beating the crap out of you? You're not a woman/man!"
This one doesn't match the others. All of the previous ones really are matters of no or little note to me. People other than me are free to define their own sexuality as they like. It gives them no claim on my sexuality at all.

Someone else can define themselves as whatever they like, however, if they want me to sleep with them, then, in that one instance, I get to decide what sex/gender you are and, if it doesn't match mine then I don't care what you call yourself, you're not getting me into bed.

Every single other instance - Don't care.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:23 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Someone else can define themselves as whatever they like, however, if they want me to sleep with them, then, in that one instance, I get to decide what sex/gender you are and, if it doesn't match mine then I don't care what you call yourself, you're not getting me into bed.


No, you get to decide if you have sex with them.

That's an important distinction.

Because it's also the choice you get to make for everyone else who asks you to have sex. No one will force you to have sex with transwomen, just like they won't force you to have sex with cismen, short people, tall people, Catholics, Methodists, gingers, Republicans, or people who hang their toilet paper the wrong way. You literally never have to have sex with anyone you don't want to, and we'll arrest anyone who tries to force you to do that.

So why make such a big issue out of this one time you don't want to have sex with someone? Why make it all about denying their gender identity? Because ultimately, that's what you do care about, it seems.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:26 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
But why not have a shave? Wear a more "feminine" suit or something? I don't know. Anything.
FWIW, there's a great youtoober out there by the name ContraPoints and I almost linked a particularly good video she makes about being a transwoman and kind of what the experience is like. Not only does she dismantle the 'autogynephilia' nonsense but takes on other difficult topics such as fascism as well (which is how I ran across her channel actually).

My point here is she also makes a comment about the "hairy men with genitals flopping about" BS that inevitably makes the rounds. Now salt = grain and all that... she said that she and every transwoman she knows are way more into body-hair removal than even the cis-women she knows and considers the "hairy man" line to be nothing more than negative propaganda and scare-tactics.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm utterly bewildered that so many people get so hung up on the sexuality of others.

If you don't want to sleep with them, why do you care?
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Don't care.
Don't care
Don't care
Don't care
Don't care
This one doesn't match the others. All of the previous ones really are matters of no or little note to me. People other than me are free to define their own sexuality as they like. It gives them no claim on my sexuality at all.

Someone else can define themselves as whatever they like, however, if they want me to sleep with them, then, in that one instance, I get to decide what sex/gender you are and, if it doesn't match mine then I don't care what you call yourself, you're not getting me into bed.

Every single other instance - Don't care.
Every single other instance deals with society in general and not you personally. So... great! You're completely and unashamedly selfish when it comes to transgender issues! Thanks for the input! We'll take it from here, okay? Those of us who do care about how society treats one another, that is.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:32 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
No, you get to decide if you have sex with them.

That's an important distinction.

I really don't think it is. As I say, in every other area, I'll identify anyone as whatever gender they want to be identified as but, if someone wants to sleep with me and they're physically a man, then that's why I don't want to sleep with them. The bottom line is that I've not yet met a man I fancied. As I say, when the person concerned wants their sexuality to interact with mine then part of my assessment is what gender I consider them to be.

I suppose I could lie, but I prefer not to do that.




Quote:
Because it's also the choice you get to make for everyone else who asks you to have sex. No one will force you to have sex with transwomen, just like they won't force you to have sex with cismen, short people, tall people, Catholics, Methodists, gingers, Republicans, or people who hang their toilet paper the wrong way. You literally never have to have sex with anyone you don't want to, and we'll arrest anyone who tries to force you to do that.

So why make such a big issue out of this one time you don't want to have sex with someone? Why make it all about denying their gender identity? Because ultimately, that's what you do care about, it seems.
Oh, well, if they didn't ask, I wouldn't tell them, I'd just say no. But if they ask then, in not unkind language, I'll tell them.

"Look, I'm sorry, Doris, I now you really like me and I know you identify as a woman but you have a cock bigger than mine, I just don't see you as a woman" is valid. It's only talking about my perception.

As I say, in any other area, that doesn't interact with my sexuality, I, rightly, don't get a say. In this one, single instance, I do.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:34 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
FWIW, there's a great youtoober out there by the name ContraPoints and I almost linked a particularly good video she makes about being a transwoman and kind of what the experience is like. Not only does she dismantle the 'autogynephilia' nonsense but takes on other difficult topics such as fascism as well (which is how I ran across her channel actually).

My point here is she also makes a comment about the "hairy men with genitals flopping about" BS that inevitably makes the rounds. Now salt = grain and all that... she said that she and every transwoman she knows are way more into body-hair removal than even the cis-women she knows and considers the "hairy man" line to be nothing more than negative propaganda and scare-tactics.





Every single other instance deals with society in general and not you personally. So... great! You're completely and unashamedly selfish when it comes to transgender issues! Thanks for the input! We'll take it from here, okay? Those of us who do care about how society treats one another, that is.
I think you may have wildly misread my point. I thank you for your kind invitation not to contribute any further, but you don't get to make that decision for me, sorry.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:37 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
FWIW, there's a great youtoober out there by the name ContraPoints and I almost linked a particularly good video she makes about being a transwoman and kind of what the experience is like. Not only does she dismantle the 'autogynephilia' nonsense but takes on other difficult topics such as fascism as well (which is how I ran across her channel actually).

My point here is she also makes a comment about the "hairy men with genitals flopping about" BS that inevitably makes the rounds. Now salt = grain and all that... she said that she and every transwoman she knows are way more into body-hair removal than even the cis-women she knows and considers the "hairy man" line to be nothing more than negative propaganda and scare-tactics.
That's been my experience too, with talking to transwomen, and that's precisely what makes me wonder if Danielle Muskato is actually a deep-cover troll.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:07 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, well, if they didn't ask, I wouldn't tell them, I'd just say no. But if they ask then, in not unkind language, I'll tell them.

"Look, I'm sorry, Doris, I now you really like me and I know you identify as a woman but you have a cock bigger than mine, I just don't see you as a woman" is valid. It's only talking about my perception.

As I say, in any other area, that doesn't interact with my sexuality, I, rightly, don't get a say. In this one, single instance, I do.

So, why not just stick with that? Why get into the whole "you're not a woman" issue at all? There's literally no debating over the existence or not of the problematic cock, so why expand the discussion any further than that indisputable fact?

"Sorry babe, but I don't like cocks, not your fault!" Could be used by you, in both this case and if a gay man propositions you, and if a lesbian is propositioned by a transwoman. It gets you off the hook sexually, while not demeaning the transperson's whole existence. If you really "don't care" about it in any other case, why not just do it this way in this case?
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:16 PM   #101
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I'm amused by the implied assumption that trans people (well, specifically trans women) are all trying to get in your pants.

It's a familiar conversation. The "omg gay men might hit on me" nonsense is prevalent among homophobes as well. I heard it a lot in the 90s.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:18 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, why not just stick with that? Why get into the whole "you're not a woman" issue at all? There's literally no debating over the existence or not of the problematic cock, so why expand the discussion any further than that indisputable fact?

As I said, if I'm asked. I wouldn't volunteer anything beyond a polite 'no', but if interrogated, I'm not going to lie.


Quote:
"Sorry babe, but I don't like cocks, not your fault!" Could be used by you, in both this case and if a gay man propositions you, and if a lesbian is propositioned by a transwoman. It gets you off the hook sexually, while not demeaning the transperson's whole existence. If you really "don't care" about it in any other case, why not just do it this way in this case?
Then perhaps I should lie if asked. I take it you think I should lie? I can understand that.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:21 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I'm amused by the implied assumption that trans people (well, specifically trans women) are all trying to get in your pants.
Jesus, can you tell me which of my writing you take that from, because it's not what I think I've written at all. This is a hypothetical situation being discussed, not me thinking I'm the be all and end all.

To be honest, I think you've just read that into the conversation from a basis of nothing at all, but I'd be very intrigued to know which of my writings has led you to the above conclusion. Can you quote me please.


Quote:
It's a familiar conversation. The "omg gay men might hit on me" nonsense is prevalent among homophobes as well. I heard it a lot in the 90s.
FFS, really? I've been hit on by gay men more than once - it's a peril when a gay friend takes you to a gay club. In fact, I've been propositioned by gay men far more than I have by straight women. I decline, they tend to be cool, we go and dance more.

I really don't know why the hell you think you get to apply the above to me, but don't. It's not only inaccurate, it's *********** offensive.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:28 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Jesus, can you tell me which of my writing you take that from, because it's not what I think I've written at all. This is a hypothetical situation being discussed, not me thinking I'm the be all and end all.

Yes, you're very concerned that a trans person might hypothetically hit on you. You've made that very clear.

Quote:
To be honest, I think you've just read that into the conversation from a basis of nothing at all, but I'd be very intrigued to know which of my writings has led you to the above conclusion. Can you quote me please.




FFS, really? I've been hit on by gay men more than once - it's a peril when a gay friend takes you to a gay club.
"Peril." OK.

Quote:
In fact, I've been propositioned by gay men far more than I have by straight women. I decline, they tend to be cool, we go and dance more.
And somehow this same process wouldn't apply to trans people because...why, exactly?

Quote:
I really don't know why the hell you think you get to apply the above to me, but don't. It's not only inaccurate, it's *********** offensive.
Don't care.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:32 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Then perhaps I should lie if asked. I take it you think I should lie? I can understand that.


First off, unless I'm seriously misreading your posts, "I don't like cocks" isn't a lie.

But even if it were, then yes, tell the lie, so that someone who is part of a seriously marginalized group, who is potentially subject to abuse every time they go to the bathroom or into a change room, who is the target of religious zealots who want to pass legislation against them, who have just recently had the President of the United States order them ejected from the US military, just might feel slightly less like crap about their lives. *********** lie.

Really, how hard is that? "Don't be a dick, even if she has one."
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Yes, you're very concerned that a trans person might hypothetically hit on you. You've made that very clear.
He didn't say that. I'm the one who sort of started this tangent, when I commented that the Tumblr-ites who claim "genital preference" is bigotry are way out of line IMO. A few of us then speculated about how prevalent this attitude is in the real world, outside of Tumblr and Twitter and such. That is what led to the current line of discussion, at least in part, and 3point14 was just following it.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:37 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Yes, you're very concerned that a trans person might hypothetically hit on you. You've made that very clear.
Where. Show me which of my words indicate that I am 'concerned'

Quote:
"Peril." OK.
Yes. I'm at risk of having to turn someone down. Putting yourself out there and asking the question is hard, regardless of one's orientation. Yes, it's a peril, a concern I have, that iI'm going to have to be mean to someone and turn them down. Particularly on those occasions when I'm in an environment that's predominantly gay. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, I just want to have a good time with my friends who happen to have brought me to a gay club (cos they're mostly more fun than straight ones)


Quote:
And somehow this same process wouldn't apply to trans people because...why, exactly?
It would. who said it wouldn't. Again, a quote would be really useful. As stated, and as you've no doubt read, a polite 'no thank you' is all that I would offer. If interrogated, however, I would not lie. I am reconsidering that part in the light of this thread.



Quote:
Don't care.
You get to label me as some sort of transphobic hater, without any evidence, even when asked?

Can I ask if there is anything I can say or present that would change your mind? I would like to find out if your accusations are based in any sort of logic or based on my words (quote them. As I've asked, quote the actual words that have led you to this conclusion) or if you've arrived at irrationally, in which case, I'm really not going to try to reason you out of your unreasoned position.


I think, in your hurry to paint me in a very horrible light, you've utterly failed to comprehend the actual words I've been writing. I admit that I may have miswritten or phrased things badly to lead you to your conclusion, however, I can't very well defend myself from your, quite frankly horrible accusations if you can't tell me specifically which of my words you have issue with.


Go on, give it a go, we both might learn something.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:40 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
First off, unless I'm seriously misreading your posts, "I don't like cocks" isn't a lie.
Fair point.



Quote:
But even if it were, then yes, tell the lie, so that someone who is part of a seriously marginalized group, who is potentially subject to abuse every time they go to the bathroom or into a change room, who is the target of religious zealots who want to pass legislation against them, who have just recently had the President of the United States order them ejected from the US military, just might feel slightly less like crap about their lives. *********** lie.

Really, how hard is that? "Don't be a dick, even if she has one."

I really don't ever intend to be a dick. And, at the risk of repeating myself (for the nth time) I would not expound unless called upon to do so.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:41 PM   #109
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Okay guys (not to assume anyone's gender) let's take a breath, go back to ground and try to see where everybody is coming from here.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Where. Show me which of my words indicate that I am 'concerned'



Yes. I'm at risk of having to turn someone down. Putting yourself out there and asking the question is hard, regardless of one's orientation. Yes, it's a peril, a concern I have, that iI'm going to have to be mean to someone and turn them down. Particularly on those occasions when I'm in an environment that's predominantly gay. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, I just want to have a good time with my friends who happen to have brought me to a gay club (cos they're mostly more fun than straight ones)
Alternatively, you could find a way to turn them down that isn't mean.

Instead, you're going with this line:

Quote:
Someone else can define themselves as whatever they like, however, if they want me to sleep with them, then, in that one instance, I get to decide what sex/gender you are and, if it doesn't match mine then I don't care what you call yourself, you're not getting me into bed.
If you can't see the hostility to transpeople in that statement, I really can't help you.

Quote:
Can I ask if there is anything I can say or present that would change your mind? I would like to find out if your accusations are based in any sort of logic or based on my words (quote them. As I've asked, quote the actual words that have led you to this conclusion) or if you've arrived at irrationally, in which case, I'm really not going to try to reason you out of your unreasoned position.
People who aren't homophobic typically don't spend a lot of time worrying about how to respond if someone of the same sex hits on them.

Similarly, people who aren't transphobic don't spend a lot of time worrying about how to respond if a trans person hits on them. I know for a damn fact that every transperson I know would see the highlighted words above and find them horribly hateful.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:52 PM   #111
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With respect Cleon I think you are assuming that "The other person's gender is not defined by their genitals" and "I'm still allowed to base my sexual preference on physical attributes" is a lot easier to balance in the moment when having to make a statement off the cuff then it is.

I want to stress that I do get where you are coming from, I'm not trying to start nothing or egg on an already a little too volatile discussion.

But take a step back. Is the idea that (g) my opinion that I want a sexual partner to have certain genitals and the (g) transperson's opinion that genitals don't define their gender never to come into conflict? That's there's no space in there for any reasonable misunderstanding in the moment that could take bad if either (and I mean either) side for what ever reason takes it that way?

Hopefully that made sense.

*Wow I never thought I would say "genitals" so many times in one post.*
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:53 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Alternatively, you could find a way to turn them down that isn't mean.

Instead, you're going with this line:
Yeah, you're not reading what I'm writing, are you? As I have said (for the nth +1 time) I would not offer up my reasoning without first being asked. I am, as a result of this thread considering lying if the, very unlikely, situation arises where the hypothetical becomes reality



Quote:
If you can't see the hostility to transpeople in that statement, I really can't help you.
Well, here, I think, is the issue. I will, as stated (and really can't believe I'm having to say this again) accede to anyone#s desire to be labelled as they wish, be it in reference to social clubs, social interaction, dress code and any other area that does not introduce my sexuality as a component.

At that point, however, we're not dealing with my thoughts, we're dealing with my libido. If my libido 'thinks' someone's a man then no amount of politically correct thinking is going to change that. Sorry. As I say, this doesn't matter in social situations one jot. When it involves the raw biochemisty of sexual attraction, my thinking bit doesn't actually get a say. Sorry.



Quote:
People who aren't homophobic typically don't spend a lot of time worrying about how to respond if someone of the same sex hits on them.
Just to check, you think I raised this issue solely to proclaim how I would deal with the situation? You just need to read the thread to know that that is not the case.


Quote:
Similarly, people who aren't transphobic don't spend a lot of time worrying about how to respond if a trans person hits on them. I know for a damn fact that every transperson I know would see the highlighted words above and find them horribly hateful.
That's a very, very biased sample. Given your unforgiving attitude towards anyone prepared to actually discuss the issue, I'm hardly suprised that those you choose to hang out with share the same view. It's hardly a usable statistic now though, is it?
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:56 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
With respect Cleon I think you are assuming that "The other person's gender is not defined by their genitals" and "I'm still allowed to base my sexual preference on physical attributes" is a lot easier to balance in the moment when having to make a statement off the cuff then it is.

I want to stress that I do get where you are coming from, I'm not trying to start nothing or egg on an already a little too volatile discussion.

But take a step back. Is the idea that (g) my opinion that I want a sexual partner to have certain genitals and the (g) transperson's opinion that genitals don't define their gender never to come into conflict? That's there's no space in there for any reasonable misunderstanding in the moment that could take bad if either (and I mean either) side for what ever reason takes it that way?

Hopefully that made sense.

*Wow I never thought I would say "genitals" so many times in one post.*
The transphobia does not lie in how you answer the question of whether you'd be attracted to a trans person.

The transphobia lies in obsessing about the question in the first place.

This really is no different from the guys (it was always guys) who saw the gay rights movement and started obsessing about what they would do if a guy ever hit on them.
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Old 17th July 2018, 12:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The transphobia does not lie in how you answer the question of whether you'd be attracted to a trans person.

The transphobia lies in obsessing about the question in the first place.

This really is no different from the guys (it was always guys) who saw the gay rights movement and started obsessing about what they would do if a guy ever hit on them.

This is a trap.

Anyone prepared to have the conversation is de facto transphobic or they wouldn't be having the conversation.

This allows you to dismiss any and all views contrary to your own without any of that pesky thinking about it.
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
FWIW, there's a great youtoober out there by the name ContraPoints and I almost linked a particularly good video she makes about being a transwoman and kind of what the experience is like. Not only does she dismantle the 'autogynephilia' nonsense but takes on other difficult topics such as fascism as well (which is how I ran across her channel actually).

My point here is she also makes a comment about the "hairy men with genitals flopping about" BS that inevitably makes the rounds. Now salt = grain and all that... she said that she and every transwoman she knows are way more into body-hair removal than even the cis-women she knows and considers the "hairy man" line to be nothing more than negative propaganda and scare-tactics.





Every single other instance deals with society in general and not you personally. So... great! You're completely and unashamedly selfish when it comes to transgender issues! Thanks for the input! We'll take it from here, okay? Those of us who do care about how society treats one another, that is.
That's funny. I recall ContraPoints saying in a video on fascism (about 1 year ago iirc) that it is a 'white' thing. Not exactly a sound-minded individual
(no I have not seen most of her work)
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:42 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is a trap.

Anyone prepared to have the conversation is de facto transphobic or they wouldn't be having the conversation.

This allows you to dismiss any and all views contrary to your own without any of that pesky thinking about it.

If you want to have a discussion of this topic without being labelled transphobic, it would help if you would go back to posts like this one:


Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
No, you get to decide if you have sex with them.

That's an important distinction.

...and actually acknowledge that this is an important point, and acknowledge that you missed the target when you initially claimed that you get to choose the person's gender. Because that makes the difference between establishing legitimate boundaries for your own sexuality, and being a dick to a marginalized person.

It's not the lack of knowledge that's the problem, it's the apparent refusal to reconsider new knowledge.
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:49 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is a trap.

Anyone prepared to have the conversation is de facto transphobic or they wouldn't be having the conversation.

This allows you to dismiss any and all views contrary to your own without any of that pesky thinking about it.
lol @ "obsessing" over the question. What? An idea can't even be entertained?
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:51 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
If you want to have a discussion of this topic without being labelled transphobic, it would help if you would go back to posts like this one:
No. I just don't want to be labelled as anything solely based on my willingness to discuss the issue. Which is what happened here. As I say, it's a trap - "either accept my viewpoint or the very fact you're prepared to discuss or challenge it shows you to be wrong". it's terrible thinking.





Quote:
...and actually acknowledge that this is an important point, and acknowledge that you missed the target when you initially claimed that you get to choose the person's gender. Because that makes the difference between establishing legitimate boundaries for your own sexuality, and being a dick to a marginalized person.

It's not the lack of knowledge that's the problem, it's the apparent refusal to reconsider new knowledge.

I must respectfully disagree.

I can lie, if you like, but my gut instinct, my biochemical, sex-related bits that get to make all those decisions isn't subject to reasonable, rational, modern, open thinking. It sees cock, it thinks 'man'. I don't know if I can change that. I really don't think I can.

As I have been at pains to point out, in every other area of life, I will accede to the wishes of anyone who wants to be labelled anyhow. In social situations everyone gets to define their own gender and I have no issues with that - I really don't care what anyone brings into the lavatory, we're eliminating, it's irrelevant.

However, in the one and only area in which it becomes relevant in any way to me, that of my own sexuality and my compatibility with whoever it is that's propositioning me, then my actual reasons for declining are that my genitals do not think they are female.

In response to your excellent comments, I wouldn't make an issue of it. I might go with your 'I don't like cock' line. That's something I might not have come up with on my own.

However, if you want me to be honest about my deep, visceral, biological reaction, then the actual reason is that my genitals, my libido and my sexuality would see cock and think 'male'.

Sorry.
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:52 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
If you want to have a discussion of this topic without being labelled transphobic, it would help if you would go back to posts like this one:





...and actually acknowledge that this is an important point, and acknowledge that you missed the target when you initially claimed that you get to choose the person's gender. Because that makes the difference between establishing legitimate boundaries for your own sexuality, and being a dick to a marginalized person.

It's not the lack of knowledge that's the problem, it's the apparent refusal to reconsider new knowledge.
Is he not allowed to see people differently than how they self-identify?
Maybe I'm being too charitable but I didn't get from his comment that he is THE arbiter of who is what gender, except in his own mind and how he will categorize others.

Is there something wrong with that?

If so, what if he just used the word "sex" instead of gender, since that seems to effectively be what his categorization is about. Is that transphobic, too?
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:53 PM   #120
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I never realised other people had such indepth conversations about whether to have a shag with someone or not.
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