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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 11th September 2018, 03:37 AM   #1201
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"Of the 317 murder victims, 102 had their professions recorded. About half of these were sex workers; a notoriously dangerous line of work."
So as few as 16% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that that status was far more likely to be reported than others.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:14 AM   #1202
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"Of the 317 murder victims, 102 had their professions recorded. About half of these were sex workers; a notoriously dangerous line of work."
So as much as 84% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that status was far less likely to be reported than others.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:21 AM   #1203
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You haven't got a clue what my job entails, so your immature sarcasm is pointless.
It doesn't matter what the specific job details are, you shouldn't have failed that.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:30 AM   #1204
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So as much as 84% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that status was far less likely to be reported than others.
Er no - half of 102 is 51.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:33 AM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Er no - half of 102 is 51.
Total: 317
Known sex workers: 51
Known not-sex workers: 51
Unknown profession: 215

Minimum possible percentage of sex workers: 51/317 = 16%
Maximum possible percentage of sex workers: (51 + 215)/317 = 84%

Now how about you actually show how this data "demolishes JJ's claim" as you asserted.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:18 AM   #1206
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Medicalising and pathologising childhood distress in the name of transgender identity:

A child abuse scandal to define an era

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Old 11th September 2018, 11:29 AM   #1207
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You're the only anti-capitalist "TERF" I've encountered.
There is the idea to change the acronym if people find TERF objectionable

Feminism
Appropriating
Reactionary
Transphobe.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:26 PM   #1208
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is the idea to change the acronym if people find TERF objectionable

Feminism
Appropriating
Reactionary
Transphobe.

Oh that is definitely getting nominated.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:41 AM   #1209
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So as much as 84% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that status was far less likely to be reported than others.
Bollocks.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:05 AM   #1210
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It doesn't matter what the specific job details are, you shouldn't have failed that.
You wanting to think I somehow "failed" doesn't make it so.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:10 AM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You wanting to think I somehow "failed" doesn't make it so.
Well, you did quite literally fail to analyze the information beyond the url initially.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:58 AM   #1212
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh that is definitely getting nominated.
It is not original to me unfortunately.
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Old 12th September 2018, 08:18 AM   #1213
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, you did quite literally fail to analyze the information beyond the url initially.
No, I just didn't bother, not least because the flaws in it had already been pointed out by others. Nobody had pointed out the imbecility of thinking that Mumsnet was a reliable source, so I did.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:10 AM   #1214
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If you're talking about the PLOS article, Brown University says:

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/08/gender

But that's exactly what they would say if they were being controlled by a shadowy conspiracy of trans activists. That's how shadowy conspiracies work, after all.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:37 AM   #1215
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But that's exactly what they would say if they were being controlled by a shadowy conspiracy of trans activists. That's how shadowy conspiracies work, after all.

Diabolical!!!
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:20 AM   #1216
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Interesting. A study comparing Massachusetts cities with and without gender discrimination laws, and the same cities after statewide gender discrimination lows took effect, found there was no change in bathroom-related crimes, in matched cities before the statewide bill, or in the same cities after the bill. It appears that the whole "male predators dressed as women" excuse for bathroom bills and the current anti-trans outrage has no basis in reality.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/...-by-this-study

I suppose one could interpret it that the "male predators in dresses" were there and being arrested in the same numbers before transgender rights, but in that case, the conclusion would be that the laws are already catching them, so why would you need to take away someone else's rights?
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:36 AM   #1217
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It will be interesting to see what reasons are forthcoming for why this study is biassed, hateful and so on, and so must be discounted.

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-...n-Children.pdf
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:47 AM   #1218
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh that is definitely getting nominated.
You know the tow the line is strong when someone nominates a fart joke.
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:41 AM   #1219
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It will be interesting to see what reasons are forthcoming for why this study is biassed, hateful and so on, and so must be discounted.

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-...n-Children.pdf
The "American College of Pediatricians" is really not a legitimate organization. See: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...cting-children

eta: and the only journal that article got published in was this one:
https://rewire.news/article/2017/03/...pseudoscience/
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Last edited by kellyb; 14th September 2018 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 14th September 2018, 06:01 AM   #1220
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The "American College of Pediatricians" is really not a legitimate organization. See: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...cting-children

eta: and the only journal that article got published in was this one:
https://rewire.news/article/2017/03/...pseudoscience/
It seems the American College of Pediatricians has around 500 members, as opposed to the American Academy of Pediatrics with 64,000.
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Old 14th September 2018, 06:09 AM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It seems the American College of Pediatricians has around 500 members, as opposed to the American Academy of Pediatrics with 64,000.
It's a religious group by admission.

http://web.archive.org/web/200308071...cs/differ.html

Quote:
"We are essentially a Judeo-Christian, traditional-values organization," he noted, "open to membership for pediatric medical professionals of all religions who hold to our core beliefs." Those beliefs, he said, are that "life begins at conception, and that the traditional family unit, headed by an opposite-sex couple, poses far fewer risk factors in the adoption and raising of children."
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:12 AM   #1222
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Interesting. A study comparing Massachusetts cities with and without gender discrimination laws, and the same cities after statewide gender discrimination lows took effect, found there was no change in bathroom-related crimes, in matched cities before the statewide bill, or in the same cities after the bill. It appears that the whole "male predators dressed as women" excuse for bathroom bills and the current anti-trans outrage has no basis in reality.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/...-by-this-study

I suppose one could interpret it that the "male predators in dresses" were there and being arrested in the same numbers before transgender rights, but in that case, the conclusion would be that the laws are already catching them, so why would you need to take away someone else's rights?
That's not what this data says. Of the 134 complaints regarding sexual assault, voyeurism and harassment in changing rooms at public swimming pools over 2017-2018, 120 took place in unisex ones and 14 in single-sex ones, even though unisex ones only account for less than half of the total.

What was the data of your study, how many incidents etc?
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:15 AM   #1223
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It will be interesting to see what reasons are forthcoming for why this study is biassed, hateful and so on, and so must be discounted.

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-...n-Children.pdf
The answer to your (implicit) question is: Appeal to authority.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:15 AM   #1224
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It will be interesting to see what reasons are forthcoming for why this study is biassed, hateful and so on, and so must be discounted.

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-...n-Children.pdf

Oh look, using an anti-LGBTQ Religious Right organization as a source. I can't tell if that's a step up or step down from the radfem conspiracy theory woos.

Let's see, a diatribe thinly disguised as a "study", created by a fundamentalist religious organization that exists for the express purpose of opposing LGBTQ rights (particularly to oppose adoption of children by LGBTQ couples) and denying the existence of transpeople, which starts off with the presumption that Gender Dysphoria is a temporary psychological condition, not the neurological condition that the evidence is increasingly pointing to, depends heavily on anecdote and ideological pronouncements, cherry picks what little data it cites, and rambles on badly misrepresenting both Gender Dysphoria and the current treatment protocol for trans-identifying children.

Let's take a look at the abstract:
Quote:
ABSTRACT: Gender dysphoria (GD) of childhood describes a psychological condition in which children experience a marked incongruence between their experienced gender and the gender associated with their biological sex. When this occurs in the pre-pubertal child, GD resolves in the vast majority of patients by late adolescence. Currently there is a vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD in children. This new paradigm is rooted in the assumption that GD is innate, and involves pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists followed by the use of cross-sex hormones—a combination that results in the sterility of minors. A review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of “First do no harm.”

Nope, that's not ideologically-driven at all. How many scientific studies would you accept where all the evidence is summarily dismissed and denied in such an offhanded manner? You know, I bet if you go to the Stormfront website you can find similar "studies" on the innate criminality of black people.

Little hint, when you've broken through the bottom of the barrel, it's time to stop scraping.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:18 AM   #1225
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, you did quite literally fail to analyze the information beyond the url initially.
Initially? He never did. I still think this is accurate:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"Oops, this data contradicts my preferred belief, what can I do now? Well I obviously can't say the results are false, it is after all so friggin easy for anyone to verify for themselves. Hmmm, I could attack the venue the results were presented. Of course this has no bearing on the actual truth of the results, which again can simply be verified by anyone, but people are stupid so they'll probably fall for that anyway. But then I still have the problem that I have no basis for attacking the venue. Hmmm, I could just launch an unsupported attack on the venue, simply telling everyone of my own personal dislike for it without support. People are stupid after all, I'll just call this stuff 'Information Analysis' or something and they'll fall for it."
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:24 AM   #1226
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Total: 317
Known sex workers: 51
Known not-sex workers: 51
Unknown profession: 215

Minimum possible percentage of sex workers: 51/317 = 16%
Maximum possible percentage of sex workers: (51 + 215)/317 = 84%.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So as few as 16% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that that status was far more likely to be reported than others.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So as much as 84% were sex workers, and I'd suspect that status was far less likely to be reported than others.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Bollocks.
Can you say "confirmation bias"? I know you can

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Er no - half of 102 is 51.
What about you Darat, any reason you chose to dispute my statement on the data but not Information Analyst's preceding statement, even though my statement did nothing but invert his? Well, any reason other than confirmation bias, that is.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #1227
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Initially? He never did.
So says Mr Mindreader.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:40 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Can you say "confirmation bias"? I know you can
You seem to have a charmingly naive view of how the press operates. "Clerical worker" is a far less salacious/"interesting" detail to report than "sex worker."
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:00 AM   #1229
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So says Mr Mindreader.
You misspelled ForumReader.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:02 AM   #1230
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You misspelled ForumReader.
Really? You seem to be claiming a lot with no actual evidence. That suggests that you think you're reading minds, rather than what has actually been said.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:04 AM   #1231
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You seem to have a charmingly naive view of how the press operates. "Clerical worker" is a far less salacious/"interesting" detail to report than "sex worker."
Yet "clerical worker" would be known (a registered profession) whereas "sex worker" would only be known if the murder itself happened in a work context.

Furthermore, in the UK dataset all have their professions known, and the ratio is also about 50%, which supports the figure of 50% that you'd get by assuming that the 102 in the larger dataset which had their professions recorded constitutes an unbiased sample of the 317 total. You know, because that would be the minimum information assumption (that's the first part of your job title btw, you should be familiar with it).
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:05 AM   #1232
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? You seem to be claiming a lot with no actual evidence. That suggests that you think you're reading minds, rather than what has actually been said.
Feel free to link to the post where you addressed the content of the post from Mumsnet.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:25 AM   #1233
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yet "clerical worker" would be known (a registered profession) whereas "sex worker" would only be known if the murder itself happened in a work context.

Furthermore, in the UK dataset all have their professions known, and the ratio is also about 50%, which supports the figure of 50% that you'd get by assuming that the 102 in the larger dataset which had their professions recorded constitutes an unbiased sample of the 317 total. You know, because that would be the minimum information assumption (that's the first part of your job title btw, you should be familiar with it).
You think that sex worker status is something that wouldn't come to light and be reported during any investigation into the murder, even if it was not a factor in the murder itself? How naive. Apart from that, if someone is murdered outside of the context of them being a sex worker, then them being a sex worker is irrelevant.

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Old 14th September 2018, 08:26 AM   #1234
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Feel free to link to the post where you addressed the content of the post from Mumsnet.
I didn't because others already had, not least in the comments on the actual Mumsnet page.

Even then, nobody managed to work out that the list was missing one victim in teh relevant timeframe, who was not a sex worker.

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Old 14th September 2018, 08:54 AM   #1235
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You think that sex worker status is something that wouldn't come to light and be reported during any investigation into the murder, even if it was not a factor in the murder itself? How naive.
Can you support that assertion with some data? Actually, how about you support the full list of assertions which we must consider true to allow for the data to be interpreted in a way to support your prior belief:

1. For every murder in every country, if the victim is a sex worker then the investigation into the murder will make it come to light and report it.

2. For every press in every country, if a murder happens and the victim has been reported by the investigation to be a sex worker then the press will also report that.

3. The UK dataset does not form an unbiased sample from the World dataset.

Quote:
Apart from that, if someone is murdered outside of the context of them being a sex worker, then them being a sex worker is irrelevant.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe a lot of random street muggings happen around the red light district.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:58 AM   #1236
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
He never did.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? You seem to be claiming a lot with no actual evidence. That suggests that you think you're reading minds, rather than what has actually been said.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Feel free to link to the post where you addressed the content of the post from Mumsnet.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I didn't
Great, so we're agreed then.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:05 AM   #1237
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Great, so we're agreed then.
Nope, you're still mischaracterised what I did or didn't do. Not analysing something is not a "failure" of analysis, any more than a car mechanic "fails" at beigng a car mechanic if they don't look under the bonnet of every noisily defective car that drives past them.

Anyway, this is all getting very boring now, which means there's not point in talking or listening to you anymore.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 14th September 2018 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #1238
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, you did quite literally fail to analyze the information beyond the url initially.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
He never did.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? You seem to be claiming a lot with no actual evidence. That suggests that you think you're reading minds, rather than what has actually been said.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Feel free to link to the post where you addressed the content of the post from Mumsnet.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I didn't
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Great, so we're agreed then.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Nope, you're still mischaracterised what I did or didn't do. Not analysing something is not a "failure" of analysis, any more than a car mechanic "fails" at beigng a car mechanic if they don't look under the bonnet of every noisily defective car that drives past them.
Great, so we're agreed now then.

Quote:
Anyway, this is all getting very boring now, which means there's not point in talking or listening to you anymore.
Translation: I can't support my claims so I'm backing out.
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:33 PM   #1239
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The answer to your (implicit) question is: Appeal to authority.
What in the world are you talking about?
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:45 PM   #1240
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What in the world are you talking about?
He's just trolling the thread.
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