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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 18th July 2018, 08:10 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Sure. But if your response is to deny transgenderism is a thing, and keep linking to sources that call them all either mislabeled butch lesbians and effeminate boys, or fetishistic perverts out to fulfill their sexual desires by harrassing women... don't be offended when people conclude you're prejudiced against trans folks.

Of course transgenderism is a thing. It has several causes, none of which is a lady brain trapped in a man's body (or the other way around). If this is all about an assertion that trans-identifying men have lady brains, then just, no.

However, we're actually talking about people's behaviour here. Being transgender, for whatever reason, should not be a free pass to aggressively demanding that your every demand be granted and that members of another disadvantaged group should give up their protections to suit your fancy.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:15 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But that's not what you are doing. You're both demonizing and denying the existence of an entire demographic because "some of them are bad."

You're doing. You know you are doing this. Stop acting obtuse.

Where on earth am I denying the existence of an entire demographic, or indeed demonising an entire demographic? (I'm not even sure it's possible to both deny that something exists and demonise it at the same time.) I'm tired of pointing out that the problem is the aggressive, entitled, bullying trans activists, of whom there seem to be rather a lot.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:16 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Against those people and their actions, yes.
Against the entire class of people they belong to, no.

So we agree. Good.

Now perhaps you might consider how women should protest the violent, aggressive, threatening, bullying men in dresses?
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:17 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And still nobody has explained how this bizarre belief that men can actually turn into women has come about.
Fifty years ago people asked the same sort of thing about the existence of gays and lesbians. Ironically.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:19 AM   #205
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And maybe you can explain how the two are in any way comparable. There's nothing inherently impossible in a human being feeling sexual attraction to another human being of the same sex. I'm still waiting to find out how a man can turn into a woman.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So we agree. Good.

Now perhaps you might consider how women should protest the violent, aggressive, threatening, bullying men in dresses?
It's easy. The same way if a black person mugs you you protest "Muggers" not "Black muggers"

You can protest "aggressive, threatening, bullying" people without making it about a demographic they happen to be part of.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:21 AM   #207
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What am I doing!

Ignore.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:26 AM   #208
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Oh God, not this "denying people's existence" crap again.

It is absolutely relevant that the members of this particular aggressive, violent, bullying group are men who identify as trans. That's the basis of their behaviour. You can't separate that behaviour from the motivation for that behaviour.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:28 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is absolutely relevant that the members of this particular aggressive, violent, bullying group are men who identify as trans. That's the basis of their behaviour. You can't separate that behaviour from the motivation for that behaviour.
And if your argument is that being transgender itself is the cause that's just hateful nonsense not worth even arguing with you about.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:29 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh God, not this "denying people's existence" crap again.

It is absolutely relevant that the members of this particular aggressive, violent, bullying group
Which violent, bullying group are you referring to?




Quote:
are men who identify as trans. That's the basis of their behaviour. You can't separate that behaviour from the motivation for that behaviour.
I read this as you believing that simply being a trans man makes one 'aggressive, violent and bullying'. Is that what you're trying to say?

It comes across that you don't actually believe there are any trans men who aren't aggressive, bullying and violent.

I suspect I'm misreading something.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:35 AM   #211
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Please don't let Rolfe turn this thread into another bash-the-tranny thread; this thread is about the trans people who were being attacked during a parade in London.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:36 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Which violent, bullying group are you referring to?

Let's call them trans rights activists.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I read this as you believing that simply being a trans man makes one 'aggressive, violent and bullying'. Is that what you're trying to say?

It comes across that you don't actually believe there are any trans men who aren't aggressive, bullying and violent.

I suspect I'm misreading something.

You clearly missed the scores of places where I repeated that the aggressive violent bullies are of course a subset of trans-identifying men. They are however a sizeable group in absolute terms, irrespective of what proportion of all trans-identifying males they make up, and they are a problem.

It seems that every attempt to express concern about the activities of this group is met with furious assertions that not all trans-identifying men are like this. It's a complete red herring, but it's repeated so often and in the teeth of repeated explanations that the concern is for the TRAs, that one begins to suspect it's a deliberate deflection tactic.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:38 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Please don't let Rolfe turn this thread into another bash-the-tranny thread; this thread is about the trans people who were being attacked during a parade in London.

Or, in fact, about lesbians who were trying to highlight their concerns and fears about the males who are demanding to be accepted as "lesbians with penises", and who were attacked as a result.

Nowhere did anyone attack any trans people.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Let's call them trans rights activists.
You could, though that would be a very misleading term.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Let's call them trans rights activists.




You clearly missed the scores of places where I repeated that the aggressive violent bullies are of course a subset of trans-identifying men. They are however a sizeable group in absolute terms,
How sizable, as a percentage, do you estimate, and from where do you gather the information that leads you to your conclusion? I'd like to see your reasoning, sources and maths.


Quote:
irrespective of what proportion of all trans-identifying males they make up, and they are a problem.
I think the proportion is very relevant. If it's all of them, you might have a point. If it's one in a million, you probably don't.

Quote:
It seems that every attempt to express concern about the activities of this group is met with furious assertions that not all trans-identifying men are like this.
I don't believe it is all trans identifying men.



Quote:
It's a complete red herring, but it's repeated so often and in the teeth of repeated explanations that the concern is for the TRAs, that one begins to suspect it's a deliberate deflection tactic.
Here's the thing though. In every other area of life, we don't punish or restrict all members of a group simply because some (as yet undefined) portion of that group act antisocially. What we actually do is simply prosecute the perpetrators.

Why do you think it is not, in this instance, appropriate to simply punish bad actors?
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:42 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And maybe you can explain how the two are in any way comparable. There's nothing inherently impossible in a human being feeling sexual attraction to another human being of the same sex. I'm still waiting to find out how a man can turn into a woman.
I think you'll find the idea is that they always were women, just as some biological women were always men.

I know transgender people who transitioned decades ago, some of whom I had absolutely no clue about until quite some time after I first met them (so much for the "men in bad wigs" slur). I also know transgender people who have only been able to transition recently, after unhappy decades of knowing what they really were, but not being able to do anything about it. Your attitude that these people are somehow wrong or deluded or - worse - part of some sort of perverse conspiracy is, frankly, utterly offensive.

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Old 18th July 2018, 08:48 AM   #217
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Your position that someone who was born in a boy's body and grew into a man was "always" a woman is not really the sort of thing I would have expected to read in a forum dedicated to scepticism.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:48 AM   #218
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There might, might be a fair discussion to be had about whether or not the gender roles that transgender people to define how their internal gender identities are meaningfully distinct from traditional cisgender might come into conflict conceptually with the push in society to remove gender roles.

Without having the entire transgender discussion again... that's still where I'm at. I've always been 100% open and honest that without clear difference outside of either base biological difference or vague statistical bellcurving between the genders to fall back on the very base concept of transgenderism is hard for me to find a vein to hit with.

But that idea that any of that requires us to entertain even for a moment the idea that they are essentially a species of undercover perverts (and if Undercover Perverts has been a band name we have failed as a species and should be ashamed of ourselves) has to be entertained.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:53 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How sizable, as a percentage, do you estimate, and from where do you gather the information that leads you to your conclusion? I'd like to see your reasoning, sources and maths.

I think the proportion is very relevant. If it's all of them, you might have a point. If it's one in a million, you probably don't.

I don't believe it is all trans identifying men.

Here's the thing though. In every other area of life, we don't punish or restrict all members of a group simply because some (as yet undefined) portion of that group act antisocially. What we actually do is simply prosecute the perpetrators.

Why do you think it is not, in this instance, appropriate to simply punish bad actors?

I don't know what proportion it is. How could one possibly tell. It seems to be one out of the three trans-identifying men that I know, but that's no guide.

I don't know in what way you think inoffensive trans-identifying men are being "punished" by a group of lesbians trying to express their concerns about the threat to their identity as female homosexuals.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Your position that someone who was born in a boy's body and grew into a man was "always" a woman is not really the sort of thing I would have expected to read in a forum dedicated to scepticism.
Yet you accept that someone born in the body of one sex can be attracted to the same sex, even when the majority are not? Why accept that variation in the human condition, but vigorously deny another?

Thanks, but I'll take my personal experience of the people I actually know over denialist dogma.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There might, might be a fair discussion to be had about whether or not the gender roles that transgender people to define how their internal gender identities are meaningfully distinct from traditional cisgender might come into conflict conceptually with the push in society to remove gender roles.

Without having the entire transgender discussion again... that's still where I'm at. I've always been 100% open and honest that without clear difference outside of either base biological difference or vague statistical bellcurving between the genders to fall back on the very base concept of transgenderism is hard for me to find a vein to hit with.

But that idea that any of that requires us to entertain even for a moment the idea that they are essentially a species of undercover perverts (and if Undercover Perverts has been a band name we have failed as a species and should be ashamed of ourselves) has to be entertained.

I didn't notice where anyone was suggesting you entertain that idea.

Women, and lesbians in particular, are trying to have precisely the discussion you outlined in your first paragraph (without the insulting term "cisgender" being a part of it). The basis of the problem is that such discussion is not being permitted by the trans activist lobby. Literally "there is no debate". This is precisely what has led to the current situation, and the shameful treatment of the lesbian group who tried to march at Pride with a banner saying that lesbians are female homosexuals and the penis is not a female organ.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's easy. The same way if a black person mugs you you protest "Muggers" not "Black muggers"

You can protest "aggressive, threatening, bullying" people without making it about a demographic they happen to be part of.
Their bullying is rooted in their ideology of (male) entitlement.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Which violent, bullying group are you referring to?

This one: https://terfisaslur.com/
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:59 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet you accept that someone born in the body of one sex can be attracted to the same sex, even when the majority are not? Why accept that variation in the human condition, but vigorously deny another?

Thanks, but I'll take my personal experience of the people I actually know over denialist dogma.

What "another"? That a man can turn into a woman? That a male brain, with XY chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal male hormones all its life, can somehow be categorised as female?
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:04 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What "another"? That a man can turn into a woman? That a male brain, with XY chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal male hormones all its life, can somehow be categorised as female?
Yet a male brain "with XY chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal male hormones all its life" can still end up gay. Or, for that matter, a female brain "with XX chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal female hormones all its life" can still end up lesbian.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:12 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know what proportion it is. How could one possibly tell.
How are you estimating risk without access to thees numbers? How do you know you're not wildly exaggerating the risk when you can't say how many of the set of trans men are dangerous to women?

Quote:
It seems to be one out of the three trans-identifying men that I know, but that's no guide.
Indeed. Not only that, it seems you have no guide at all - you literally cannot say how large the subgroup about which you are concerned is. You are therefore entirely unable to estimate risk with any confidence at all. You still loudly proclaim it to be an issue. I cannot reconcile your lack of statistical knowledge with your apparent absolute estimate of risk.


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I don't know in what way you think inoffensive trans-identifying men are being "punished" by a group of lesbians trying to express their concerns about the threat to their identity as female homosexuals.
'Punished' is perhaps the wrong word. "Being restricted from their normal, daily activities because you believe but cannot numerate a risk" would probably be better.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:12 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet a male brain "with XY chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal male hormones all its life" can still end up gay. Or, for that matter, a female brain "with XX chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal female hormones all its life" can still end up lesbian.

Of course. But in that case the person remains male or female, accordingly. Supernatural trans-substantiation is not being proposed.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:14 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post

Are there any actual numbers or anlysis on that page? I can't see anything that would constitute anything more than anecdote.

It's just a whole page of argument by twitter. You can pretty much show anything by cherry picking twitter bolocks.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:20 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet a male brain "with XY chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal male hormones all its life" can still end up gay. Or, for that matter, a female brain "with XX chromosomes in every cell and which has been bathed in all the normal female hormones all its life" can still end up lesbian.
Gay men are men. Lesbians are women.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:22 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh God, not this "denying people's existence" crap again.

It is absolutely relevant that the members of this particular aggressive, violent, bullying group are men who identify as trans. That's the basis of their behaviour. You can't separate that behaviour from the motivation for that behaviour.
You've mentioned trans women a lot.

How do you feel about trans men?
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:25 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How are you estimating risk without access to thees numbers? How do you know you're not wildly exaggerating the risk when you can't say how many of the set of trans men are dangerous to women?

Indeed. Not only that, it seems you have no guide at all - you literally cannot say how large the subgroup about which you are concerned is. You are therefore entirely unable to estimate risk with any confidence at all. You still loudly proclaim it to be an issue. I cannot reconcile your lack of statistical knowledge with your apparent absolute estimate of risk.

'Punished' is perhaps the wrong word. "Being restricted from their normal, daily activities because you believe but cannot numerate a risk" would probably be better.

Does it matter what proportion of trans-identifying men are violent and aggressive? There are enough of them to create a substantial problem and it doesn't magically go away just because you're happy that it's not a high percentage.

In what way are inoffensive trans-identifying people being restricted from their normal daily activities by a group of lesbians rocking up to Pride with banners that say things like "Lesbian = female homosexual" and "The penis is not a female organ"?
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:26 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
You've mentioned trans women a lot.

How do you feel about trans men?

Show me a trans-identifying woman who's being violent and aggressive towards men and I'll tell you.

ETA: I probably phrased that badly. There does not appear to be a cohort of trans-identifying women who are being violent and aggressive towards men, and calling gay men transphobic if they say they don't want to have sex with them. So this is a problem pretty much confined to the male of the species.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 18th July 2018 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:28 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are there any actual numbers or anlysis on that page? I can't see anything that would constitute anything more than anecdote.

It's just a whole page of argument by twitter. You can pretty much show anything by cherry picking twitter bolocks.

And yet you and others are content to insist that because you know a few trans-identifying men who are inoffensive, nice people then that characterises the whole group and anyone who's different from that is the aberration.

It works both ways.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:29 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Does it matter what proportion of trans-identifying men are violent and aggressive?
Yeah... a lot actually. A whole lot.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Show me a trans-identifying woman who's being violent and aggressive towards men and I'll tell you.
Does that mean you will base your opinion of trans men solely on whether or not I can find an example of said behavior?

Does that mean you don't currently have an opinion? Aren't trans men also trying to "get into (male) protected spaces" like their counterparts the trans women?

This viewpoint doesn't seem consistent.

Also is it "female entitlement" to want access to male spaces?
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:34 AM   #235
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There's almost 8 billion of us on this planet. Make up the most wildest demographic you can imagine and I can find a fair number of ******** in it.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:35 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I don't get why Rolfe objects to being labeled "transphobic" when she thinks transwomen are out to "hurt, abuse and discriminate against women."

It's a bit like refusing to eat meat but getting offended at the label "vegetarian."
Some trans folk are, so I'm going to take a page from your book "not all trans".

How does that feel? Do you think this debate is going to progress due to my statement?
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Does that mean you will base your opinion of trans men solely on whether or not I can find an example of said behavior?

Does that mean you don't currently have an opinion? Aren't trans men also trying to "get into (male) protected spaces" like their counterparts the trans women?

This viewpoint doesn't seem consistent.

Also is it "female entitlement" to want access to male spaces?

Well, I'm not a man so the invasion of men's spaces is not my primary concern. However I see no reports of aggressive, bullying trans-identifying women intimidating men or threatening or perpetrating violence against men for the crime of not including them in men's groups or activities.

I don't see women on testosterone marching with blue baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire with labels such as "TERM-basher" on them. I don't see any sign of an equivalent problem on the other side of the sex divide. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, show me the evidence this is a thing and I'll reconsider.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Fifty years ago people asked the same sort of thing about the existence of gays and lesbians. Ironically.
People denied gay people were doing gay things? I think the issue was rather the opposite they knew they were going on and hatred it.

Stop trying to shoehorn in comparisons that don't fit.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:38 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's almost 8 billion of us on this planet. Make up the most wildest demographic you can imagine and I can find a fair number of ******** in it.

Undoubtedly. However the question arises as to whether the person's inclusion in that demographic is a fundamental reason for the ********* being highlighted. If it's not, then it's irrelevant. But if it is, then it has to be acknowledged.
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Old 18th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet you accept that someone born in the body of one sex can be attracted to the same sex, even when the majority are not? Why accept that variation in the human condition, but vigorously deny another?

Thanks, but I'll take my personal experience of the people I actually know over denialist dogma.
You accept that someone can be transgender but deny that someone can have the soul of an animal. How is that different?

Personally I'd say they were two separate things, but you have backed yourself into a corner.
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