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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 18th July 2018, 10:41 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Your name is Joe, not Jo. I don't think transgender people are a danger to you.
Your fear and paranoia is not the mic drop you think it is.

"But.. but I'm a woman!" Okay and? Your continued assertion that this justifies demonizing other genders and sexual demographics is insulting.
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Old 18th July 2018, 10:52 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
As I understand it, they did not set out to lead the march. They set out to join the march, and the organisers tried to have them ejected. They then lay down in the street either on or under their banners, not sure which. At some point the organisers were made aware that legally they had no power to exclude the women from the march. Their eventual position was the result of this contretemps and not actually intended.
Yet despite presumably being very aware that the NHS was supposed to be leading the march - what with it being the 70th anniversary, and all (a not unpublicised event) - they just couldn't bring themselves to **** off when they obviously weren't wanted?
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Old 18th July 2018, 10:57 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Because said group of lesbians are directly denying - as you are - the personal validity of transwomen and transmen. The very fact that you can't even bring yourself to use those terms, but instead keep saying "trans identifying men/women" is exactly the same denialism.
They are doing no such thing.

Self identification does not involve other people, the problem comes in when you demand others agree to your self identification.

Then it becomes a matter of opinion.

If you want to say " I think I'm a woman" that's fine. As a nice person I'll tend not to want to piss on your flowers about it. But when you say "you have to think I'm a woman" then you are asking me for something, and im going to need a good reason to give it to you. So far the beast reason I've seen is "if you don't it makes me want to kill myself" and while I empathize I can't go around changing my actions every tone someone threatens to kill themselves. If I did that I'd still be in an abusive relationship.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:00 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet despite presumably being very aware that the NHS was supposed to be leading the march - what with it being the 70th anniversary, and all (a not unpublicised event) - they just couldn't bring themselves to **** off when they obviously weren't wanted?
I'd say the same about trans folks at women's events. Or myself. If I'm not wanted I'm not there. But seeing as very few people think like that anymore why should the terfs be the only ones held to the standard?

All this **** reminds me of the kid that forgets the dog exists when they get a new kitten. "Sorry lesbians but the trans folks are just so cute and fragile. Maybe I'll remember to let you out tomorrow. "
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:02 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yet despite presumably being very aware that the NHS was supposed to be leading the march - what with it being the 70th anniversary, and all (a not unpublicised event) - they just couldn't bring themselves to **** off when they obviously weren't wanted?

What's the first letter of LGB.... again?

I wasn't there so obviously I don't know exactly what people were thinking. I didn't know the NHS was supposed to be leading the march for example. Your post is the first I've heard of that.

Lesbians, that is the L part, turn up to a Pride march with banners saying who they are, and they should "just piss off because they're not wanted"?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:06 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your fear and paranoia is not the mic drop you think it is.

"But.. but I'm a woman!" Okay and? Your continued assertion that this justifies demonizing other genders and sexual demographics is insulting.

I'm a woman who supports the continuing existence of single-sex spaces where appropriate, including bathing and toilet facilities, sleeping accommodation, sporting events and crisis centres.

I'm thoroughly tired of men lining up to tell me that I must budge over and let any man who says the magic words into these spaces, because "the most incredibly marginalised group" (who happen to be men) wants in.

Why should men be granted the right to enter these spaces? The reply seems to be that they might feel a bit upset if they're not granted that right. What about the women, women being over 50% of the population mind, who might feel a bit upset if a man starts getting his kit off in the female changing room she's in, or in preparation to bedding down in the other bed in the shared sleeping accommodation she'd been assured was single-sex? Why is the concern of one group granted absolute priority and the concern of the other group isn't even allowed to be talked about?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:12 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What's the first letter of LGB.... again?

I wasn't there so obviously I don't know exactly what people were thinking. I didn't know the NHS was supposed to be leading the march for example. Your post is the first I've heard of that.

Lesbians, that is the L part, turn up to a Pride march with banners saying who they are, and they should "just piss off because they're not wanted"?
Who appointed them the representatives of all lesbians? Apparently they were outnumbered by a lot more lesbians who were just as pissed off by their antics as everyone else.

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Old 18th July 2018, 11:13 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm a woman who supports the continuing existence of single-sex spaces where appropriate, including bathing and toilet facilities, sleeping accommodation, sporting events and crisis centres.

I'm thoroughly tired of men lining up to tell me that I must budge over and let any man who says the magic words into these spaces, because "the most incredibly marginalised group" (who happen to be men) wants in.
Oh I'm not going to listen to the "Don't mainsplain to me" speech from you.

You're hiding bigoted arguments behind a facade of fear.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Who appointed them the representatives of all lesbians? Apparently a lot more lesbians were pissed off by their antics than there was of them.

Male or female lesbians, I wonder?

They simply pitched up to join what was supposed to be an inclusive march. Funny how the "lesbians" marching with the pink baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire and labelled things like "TERF-basher" were allowed to participate unhindered.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:16 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm a woman who supports the continuing existence of single-sex spaces where appropriate, including bathing and toilet facilities, sleeping accommodation, sporting events and crisis centres.

I'm thoroughly tired of men lining up to tell me that I must budge over and let any man who says the magic words into these spaces, because "the most incredibly marginalised group" (who happen to be men) wants in.

Why should men be granted the right to enter these spaces? The reply seems to be that they might feel a bit upset if they're not granted that right. What about the women, women being over 50% of the population mind, who might feel a bit upset if a man starts getting his kit off in the female changing room she's in, or in preparation to bedding down in the other bed in the shared sleeping accommodation she'd been assured was single-sex? Why is the concern of one group granted absolute priority and the concern of the other group isn't even allowed to be talked about?
How about trans men on hormones? By your rules, they'd have to go back to the women's facilities. Are you just going to be fine with someone with a beard walking into a dressing room if they say they've got a vagina or XX chromosomes?
Or are they banned from 'your' space too?

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Old 18th July 2018, 11:19 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
They simply pitched up to join what was supposed to be an inclusive march. Funny how the "lesbians" marching with the pink baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire and labelled things like "TERF-basher" were allowed to participate unhindered.
Is that how you think an event on the scale of London Pride happens? Everyone just "pitches up" and randomly takes a place on the day? Your excuses for the inexcusable are getting silly now.

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Old 18th July 2018, 11:19 AM   #292
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It's a source of puzzlement to me how it is that we're told that non-gender-conforming men must be allowed access to all women's spaces because they would be in mortal danger if they ventured into a gents' lavatory, and yet the most vocal people asserting this are - men.

This thread and other discussions are dominated by (mostly but not exclusively straight) men lining up to attack women as bigots and haters for wanting to preserve their sex-designated spaces. Everything must be done for the comfort and convenience of our trans-identifying brothers. By women that is. Because men are such brutes that they can't possibly be accommodated within male accommodation.

But it's absolutely fine to insist that women accept any man who wants to enter their spaces, because these men can't possibly be brutes at all....

This is making my head spin.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:20 AM   #293
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I'm saying across the board "I don't want you near me because I'm scared of you" is wrong.

You have no more right to be scared of men as a group then of blacks or Muslims or gays.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:22 AM   #294
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NM. Again.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:24 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How about trans men on hormones? By your rules, they'd have to go back to the women's facilities. Are you just going to be fine with someone with a beard walking into a dressing room if they say they've got a vagina or XX chromosomes?
Or are they banned from 'your' space too?

This is something women are trying to have a conversation about, and work out solutions that take everyone's needs into account. This is the conversation that the trans activists are trying extremely hard to shut down. The relatively recent rise of the very masculine "transwoman" who demands aggressively to have no distinction made between him and actual women is screwing the pitch very badly for the live-and-let-live trans people of both sexes who have managed a modus vivendi that generally hasn't upset anyone. I don't know how it will eventually play out.

I do know that shouting "you must think the way I tell you to think, there is no debate" is not a good way to advance understanding.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:26 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying across the board "I don't want you near me because I'm scared of you" is wrong.

You have no more right to be scared of men as a group then of blacks or Muslims or gays.

Thus ignoring the entire history of the abuse of women by men. Women know they have very good reason to be scared of men, because nobody can tell which men are harmless and which ones are rapists until it happens. This is THE EXACT REASON protected women's spaces were fought for in the first place.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:26 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a source of puzzlement to me how it is that we're told that non-gender-conforming men must be allowed access to all women's spaces because they would be in mortal danger if they ventured into a gents' lavatory, and yet the most vocal people asserting this are - men.

This thread and other discussions are dominated by (mostly but not exclusively straight) men lining up to attack women as bigots and haters for wanting to preserve their sex-designated spaces. Everything must be done for the comfort and convenience of our trans-identifying brothers. By women that is. Because men are such brutes that they can't possibly be accommodated within male accommodation.

But it's absolutely fine to insist that women accept any man who wants to enter their spaces, because these men can't possibly be brutes at all....

This is making my head spin.
Most men seem fine about accommodating transmen. I know you seem adverse to even acknowledging that side of the issue even exists, but the lack of any equivalent outrage is quite stark in comparison. Then again, blokes have long been used to not batting an eyelid when ciswomen use the gents, as well.

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Old 18th July 2018, 11:27 AM   #298
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Edit: never mind.

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Old 18th July 2018, 11:28 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
To one side.

To the other is about members of the LGBT community being silenced in favor of members that are more media relevant.

Stories about gay people are so last last year, trans is where it is at for gaining sjw points.
Yep like why people were right to be mad at a transman winning international letherman.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:30 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
<snip>The relatively recent rise of the very masculine "transwoman" who demands aggressively to have no distinction made between him and actual women is screwing the pitch very badly for the live-and-let-live trans people of both sexes who have managed a modus vivendi that generally hasn't upset anyone.
Could you estimate a ratio between these two groups. How many of the former are there?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:33 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And how representative are these lesbians? Most I know are too busy living their lives to be attending the meetings of the over-politicised minority.
Isn't an over politicised minority what pride is really all about in its origin? It started with the gays wanting special treatment now it is the trans what next bisexuals?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:35 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They are doing no such thing.

Self identification does not involve other people, the problem comes in when you demand others agree to your self identification.

Then it becomes a matter of opinion.
And of course tact and politeness. I think he looks like a Bill I will call him bill no matter how many times he claims his name is Matt. That is a simple matter of opinion.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:44 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Got any statistics?

That could be all of them in the whole world all gathered in one place, whiich would make them a vanishingly small percentage. Or that could be a tiny, tiny portion of the whole.

Do you have any statistics? I'm being inundated with argument by anecdote here. You and Rolfe seem to be the primary standard bearers and you're both so sure it's an issue, but you've both only come with 'feelings' anecdotes and stuff you 'know' without showing how you know it.

Nothing I have seen so far constitutes evidence of a problem beyond a teeny, tiny group of loud idiots. There are a subset of loud idiots in any group, it's the nature of people. You've not shown that it's in any way a problem.


Again, as with all idiot subsets, I would recommend dealing with and prosecuting the subset as and when it's called for. The massive, and as far as I can see, unjustified, brush that you and Rolfe are using - from a position of no statistical information at all, is freaking me out when I'm on a skeptics forum.
Yeah, must be hard for you. x

Perhaps you are unaware that women liberated themselves by coming together in sex-segregated groups and talking to each other about their experiences of being women living in a patriarchal world. They believed and valued their own experience of reality. They didn't need statistics to become aware of their collective experience as women.

It is an issue because woman-only spaces, institutions and relationships are being invaded by men, reversing gains that required decades of political struggle to achieve.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:51 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can you define your terms, please? What is a man, and what is a woman?
Humans are sexually dimorphic mammals.

Man = adult human male

Woman = adult human female
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:52 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a source of puzzlement to me how it is that we're told that non-gender-conforming men must be allowed access to all women's spaces because they would be in mortal danger if they ventured into a gents' lavatory, and yet the most vocal people asserting this are - men.

This thread and other discussions are dominated by (mostly but not exclusively straight) men lining up to attack women as bigots and haters for wanting to preserve their sex-designated spaces. Everything must be done for the comfort and convenience of our trans-identifying brothers. By women that is. Because men are such brutes that they can't possibly be accommodated within male accommodation.

But it's absolutely fine to insist that women accept any man who wants to enter their spaces, because these men can't possibly be brutes at all....

This is making my head spin.
Again I agree with your point, mostly.

Said men are not doing it for other men, they are doing it to get laid. It's just not hip to not confirm to sjw standards. Same guys were wearing ed hardy, pink good shirts and switched right from rock to rap. Not because they like these things but because it was hip and would score them points.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:54 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying across the board "I don't want you near me because I'm scared of you" is wrong.

You have no more right to be scared of men as a group then of blacks or Muslims or gays.
Dare you to say that in any group that is sjw focused irl.

I'd ask you to report back but you will be being yelled at for the next decade.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:56 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course tact and politeness. I think he looks like a Bill I will call him bill no matter how many times he claims his name is Matt. That is a simple matter of opinion.
Please explain to me the differences between a bill and a mat, visually and anatomically. If you have a case id change my opinion.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Yeah, must be hard for you. x
It'd be a lot less hard if you could come up with some actual, reasonable estimate of the level of risk based on actual statistics.

Cherry picked twitter posts and videos of idiots marching aren't that.

I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:58 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dare you to say that in any group that is sjw focused irl.

I'd ask you to report back but you will be being yelled at for the next decade.
SJWs are your boogeyman, not mine.

I can point and laugh at the SJWs for talking about manspreading and stare rape and 36 genders still agree with them on other things.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:59 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Humans are sexually dimorphic mammals.

Man = adult human male

Woman = adult human female
You're adding synonyms but not defining them. What makes a person male or female? Organs? Chromosomes? Both? What about people born missing some organs, or with extra, or with them but undeveloped? What about XXY people and the like? You say 'adult'...is that chronological, chemical, some threshold state of physical development?

It's not as simple as M/F. Pretending it is is the ultimate source of the problem here.

Your options are to sit as judge and rule on every possible variation of human circumstance and decide what falls into each of these categories...or to understand that there's a spectrum and it doesn't matter what anybody is, only what they do.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:05 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're adding synonyms but not defining them. What makes a person male or female? Organs? Chromosomes? Both? What about people born missing some organs, or with extra, or with them but undeveloped? What about XXY people and the like? You say 'adult'...is that chronological, chemical, some threshold state of physical development?

It's not as simple as M/F. Pretending it is is the ultimate source of the problem here.

Your options are to sit as judge and rule on every possible variation of human circumstance and decide what falls into each of these categories...or to understand that there's a spectrum and it doesn't matter what anybody is, only what they do.
Go see my post on the topic instead of going for the low hanging fruit.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:06 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Please explain to me the differences between a bill and a mat, visually and anatomically. If you have a case id change my opinion.
Easy you look like a Bill. Why should Bill object to being called Bill when he thinks his name is Matt?

This is a simple difference of opinion after all why make a big deal over it?
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:10 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Go see my post on the topic instead of going for the low hanging fruit.
No.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:16 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

They simply pitched up to join what was supposed to be an inclusive march.
That aspect seems to to have eluded them.
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:36 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're adding synonyms but not defining them. What makes a person male or female? Organs? Chromosomes? Both? What about people born missing some organs, or with extra, or with them but undeveloped? What about XXY people and the like? You say 'adult'...is that chronological, chemical, some threshold state of physical development?

It's not as simple as M/F. Pretending it is is the ultimate source of the problem here.

Your options are to sit as judge and rule on every possible variation of human circumstance and decide what falls into each of these categories...or to understand that there's a spectrum and it doesn't matter what anybody is, only what they do.
Chromosomes. That a few people are born with XXY doesn't alter the definition of man and woman. The vast majority of humans are born either XX or XY, with no ambiguity.

There isn't much variation in the sex of humans. Something like 1 in 2,000 children is born with confusing genitals. No feminist is saying that they shouldn't enjoy exactly the same human rights as everyone else.

It matters that women can call themselves women and that this category does not include men. Otherwise it is impossible for women to organise politically as a class. People in any other category you can think of are welcome to organise themselves under the umbrella of that category. Feminists organise around issues that affect women. Lesbians organise around issues that affect lesbians.

Adult= fully grown or developed.

The "ultimate source of the problem" here is that SOME men are claiming that they can magically become women, often based on their feelings alone, and that they are then entitled to be recognised as women in all respects. Perhaps the ultimate problem here is that there are a lot of wounded men with narcissistic personality disorders!
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:51 PM   #316
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So... "It's us versus them. And now some of them claim they're part of us and that feels like a threat."
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Old 18th July 2018, 12:54 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It'd be a lot less hard if you could come up with some actual, reasonable estimate of the level of risk based on actual statistics.

Cherry picked twitter posts and videos of idiots marching aren't that.

I'm not holding my breath.
The video contains no marching, BTW. I guess that means you didn't watch it.

The tweets are examples of "TERFs" being threatened with violence and/or death. If only one woman is raped and/or murdered or threatened with death by men in a community, it affects all women.

The problem of male violence has been evident for centuries. That is why men are regarded as risky. One never knows which one will be violent. Male violence is an ongoing problem.

I doubt if there are any statistics on transgender male violence, particularly because their crimes are legally reported as being crimes committed by women. They are "women", remember? The phenomenon of militant male transgender activists aggressively invading women's spaces is recent. It represents a very sudden backlash against feminist advances.

You are wise not to hold your breath, for biological reasons!
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:00 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Seems like if you wanted to actually know the answer you would have done that instead of adding a meaningless step of making someone else do it.

I found plenty, go try,prove me wrong.
You asked me what happened when I did something I hadn't done. I call that manipulative. I simply asked you the same question in return.

I don't know what I'm supposed to be proving you wrong about, but I googled "Terf threatens trans activists" and all the links are about transgender activist violence against "TERFs".
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:16 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
So... "It's us versus them. And now some of them claim they're part of us and that feels like a threat."
In what kind of situations do you worry about being raped?
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Old 18th July 2018, 01:18 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Chromosomes. That a few people are born with XXY doesn't alter the definition of man and woman. The vast majority of humans are born either XX or XY, with no ambiguity.

There isn't much variation in the sex of humans. Something like 1 in 2,000 children is born with confusing genitals. No feminist is saying that they shouldn't enjoy exactly the same human rights as everyone else.

It matters that women can call themselves women and that this category does not include men. Otherwise it is impossible for women to organise politically as a class. People in any other category you can think of are welcome to organise themselves under the umbrella of that category. Feminists organise around issues that affect women. Lesbians organise around issues that affect lesbians.

Adult= fully grown or developed.

The "ultimate source of the problem" here is that SOME men are claiming that they can magically become women, often based on their feelings alone, and that they are then entitled to be recognised as women in all respects. Perhaps the ultimate problem here is that there are a lot of wounded men with narcissistic personality disorders!
*shrug* seems like a weird reason
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